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Zim
2007-09-17, 11:57 PM
a double pick? I've seen double hammers, swords, axes, spears, flails, and entendres :smallwink: , but AFAIK I can't recall a double pick. Help?

JackMage666
2007-09-18, 12:24 AM
Not that I know of... Make one. Double weapons kinda suck anyway. Just attach two Light Picks together, and you're done.

Prophaniti
2007-09-18, 12:29 AM
yeah there is... Its in the phb. called a gnome pickhammer or some such... I know its not a true double pick, but you can take that as a base.

Swooper
2007-09-18, 04:33 AM
The only double weapon I've seen that's worth using is the quarterstaff. Why would you want a double pick? And more importantly, who would design and make one? Picks are tools used mostly in cramped mining tunnels. So cramped as to make swinging double picks higly impractical. And as weapons, I can see double picks being just as impractical as almost every other double weapon.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-18, 05:39 AM
Well, a T-shaped miner's pick has two points. I'm not sure that's what you meant?

puppyavenger
2007-09-18, 06:26 AM
also you can'r mine with picks in D&D.

Fixer
2007-09-18, 06:47 AM
The only double weapon I've seen that's worth using is the quarterstaff. Why would you want a double pick? And more importantly, who would design and make one? Picks are tools used mostly in cramped mining tunnels. So cramped as to make swinging double picks higly impractical. And as weapons, I can see double picks being just as impractical as almost every other double weapon.

I once had a character who wielded a double weapon quite effectively.

It was magical. One side was enchanted with a very high + (back in 3.0), ghost touch and elemental enchantments (fire, acid), and I think disruption. The other side had the other elemental enhancements (cold, electricity), brilliant energy, and other effects.

As such the character could focus all of their combat feats on the single weapon but depending on his opponents could switch sides to whichever would be more effective. Undead & constructs got one side, heavily armored opponents got the other.

Flawless
2007-09-18, 06:55 AM
I once had a character who wielded a double weapon quite effectively.

It was magical. One side was enchanted with a very high + (back in 3.0), ghost touch and elemental enchantments (fire, acid), and I think disruption. The other side had the other elemental enhancements (cold, electricity), brilliant energy, and other effects.

As such the character could focus all of their combat feats on the single weapon but depending on his opponents could switch sides to whichever would be more effective. Undead & constructs got one side, heavily armored opponents got the other.

Yeah, but you can get the same thing by having two different magic weapons of the same kind (like two greatswords with the enchantments you mentioned). If you use the feat that you'd otherwise waste for EWP for quick draw instead, you're simply better.

Zim
2007-09-18, 08:11 AM
Thanks for the avalanche of responses. Guess I shouldn't sleep! :smallwink:

My co-DM and I are working on a house ruled racial progression proposal for our gaming group (kind of a site unseen version of what 4.0 will offer), and I was looking for racial weapon familiarities for kobolds. In the absence of a double pick, I'll skip the weapon familiarity and go with automatic proficiency in pick (heavy and light), kind of like how elves automatically know how to use longswords.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-18, 08:16 AM
Thanks for the avalanche of responses. Guess I shouldn't sleep! :smallwink:

My co-DM and I are working on a house ruled racial progression proposal for our gaming group (kind of a site unseen version of what 4.0 will offer), and I was looking for racial weapon familiarities for kobolds. In the absence of a double pick, I'll skip the weapon familiarity and go with automatic proficiency in pick (heavy and light), kind of like how elves automatically know how to use longswords.

If they're Koblods, why not spears? And not just any spears, Greatspears! Come on, they get the gnome-skewer! That is one of the coolest weapons ever and its a Kobold spear.

Zim
2007-09-18, 08:25 AM
That's an idea, thanks! I'll look more closely at that.

RTGoodman
2007-09-18, 12:52 PM
If you still want Kobolds to use picks, check out Complete Warrior (I think). There's the beefed up version called the Dire Pick that functions like a bastard sword (martial two-handed; exotic one-handed) that does slightly more damage than a heavy pick. I think (off the top of my head) that it's something like 1d6 Small/1d8 Medium, 20/x2.

You could say that kobolds are automatically proficient with the shortspear, spear, light pick, and heavy pick, and treat the dire pick as a martial weapon. I mean, it's not gonna overpower kobolds to give them a weapon that deals more than 1d3 or 1d4 damage.

Zim
2007-09-18, 01:27 PM
So, here's the WIP for the racial progression chart. The basic premise is to gradually give different races a series of minor talents and feats to make them more interesting without making them unbalanced (inspired by the 4E racial progression idea). The formula is:

1 base racial ability
2 minor feat (+2 to 2 skills that reflect the race or offset a disadvantage)
4 minor skill related boost to offset racial weakness
6 minor feat
8 improved sense or class feature
10 +2 to a key ability
12 minor feat
14 cool but minor class ability that suits the class
16 minor feat that boosts a saving throw
18 cool class ability or SQ that seems appropriate for race
20 +2 to a different key ability

The minor feats are all the "low tier" ones that nobody will take unless they have to.

Kobold Progression Table:
Level Benefit
1 As starting kobold +WP Pick (lt. & hvy.), WpnFam Dire pick
2 Feat: Daylight Adaptation
4 Nimble: Use Dex for climb, jump & swim
6 Feat: Stealthy
8 Darkvision +30
10 +2 Dex
12 Feat: Nimble Fingers
14 Uncanny Dodge
16 Feat: Lightning Reflexes
18 Sneak attack +1d6
20 +2 Cha

Here's another example:
Orc Progression Table: Orc-Blood Humaniods
Level Benefit
1 As orc, + WpnFam Orc Double Axe
2 Feat: Daylight Adaptation
4 Bully: Use Str for Intimidate Checks
6 Feat: Athletic
8 Darkvision improved +30
10 +2 Str
12 Feat: Grim Visage (RoF 163)
14 DR1/- or +1 to current DR
16 Feat: Great Fortitude
18 Scent
20 +2 Con

Half-orcs may choose from either this or the other parent's progression table (yes, we're trying out other combos than half-human). As I said though, WIP.

I post this with mild trepidation because of the whole WotC "if you post it on our website or link to our website, we own it" clause. :smalleek: So nobody link this to WotC, m'kay? :smallwink:

If they want it, they can ask, just like anybody else.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-18, 01:39 PM
Logically, a double pick shouldn't exist. A pick derives its power from a large fulcrum. So you would grip it as far back on the hilt as you can. That makes the pick on the other end useless/hindering. Pick hammers can make sense since the hammer counterbalances the pick at a killing distance.

From a game mechanics point of view, you're looking for a double piercing weapon. I would instead go for a double morningstar, which yields a double piercing/bludgeoning weapon. It would be cumbersome, and I wouldn't wield it without some sort of arm protection, but it would be relatively easy to make.

Keld Denar
2007-09-18, 02:05 PM
Double weapons have one other redeaming quality that I posted on in another thread. They are exotic and double, which qualifies them for the Exotic Weapon Master's "Flurry of Strikes" trick (CW). You don't two-weapon fight with it, you swing one end at a time, 2-handed with 2-1 power attack. You do each side for a different condition. Flurry of Strikes is an amazing trick, allowing you to gain an extra attack by taking a -2 to all attacks, similar to how rapid shot works. By level 8, you should never not be flurrying. The best part is, you get 2-hand power attack AND 1.5 str with it, since you are only attacking with one end. Mix and match enhancements to suite and blast away.

Keld Denar
2007-09-18, 02:09 PM
Logically, a double pick shouldn't exist. A pick derives its power from a large fulcrum. So you would grip it as far back on the hilt as you can. That makes the pick on the other end useless/hindering. Pick hammers can make sense since the hammer counterbalances the pick at a killing distance.

From a game mechanics point of view, you're looking for a double piercing weapon. I would instead go for a double morningstar, which yields a double piercing/bludgeoning weapon. It would be cumbersome, and I wouldn't wield it without some sort of arm protection, but it would be relatively easy to make.

A) An axe derives its power from a large fulcrum as well. Typically when splitting wood, you hold the axe as far back as possible to get the largest moment. Yet D&D gives us the double axe. Therefore, a double pick should be just as feasable in a fantasy setting.

B) He probably wants the 4x crit multiplier that most, if not all, picks enjoy. Getting those juicy crits is often the highlight of a play session.

C) Profit???

tannish2
2007-09-18, 02:16 PM
useful double weapon: quartstaff why is the quarterstaff the best weapon in the game? well you can put multiple spells on there, so almost any cheese you can pull with a wizard you can pull with a staff. and on top of that you can hit people with it.

Zim
2007-09-18, 02:40 PM
C) Profit???

Let's not get ahead of ourselves:
A) Underpants
B) ? (double pick?)
then C) Profit!
:smallbiggrin:

BTW I didn't actually want to debate the pro's and con's of double weapons; I was interested in it out of a flavour POV. I wasn't concerned about if it's mechanically sound, just a cool racial option. :smallcool:

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-18, 09:39 PM
Not that I know of... Make one. Double weapons kinda suck anyway. Just attach two Light Picks together, and you're done.

A double weapon should never be doing light weapon damage. The whole point of making you take the EWP is because it does the same damage as the one-handed version of the weapon, for both hands, but with the penalties of a light off-hand weapon.