A plague and a graft (PEACH)

[Aniikinis]

First the plague, it's based loosely off the song "Plagues of Babylon" by Iced Earth:
Name: Babylon's Curse
Type: Lingering Ravaging Plague
Infection DC: 25 (Contact)
Incubation: 1 week
Damage: Necrosis, Ability Damage, and Death
Cure: 2 saves to resist infection, 6 saves after incubation

Also known as the Sethian Sickness, this disease was manufactured to be the end of all sentient non-sethian races.
Effect: 1 point of strength, dexterity, and constitution damage. If an ability score would be reduced below 1 by ability damage, an additional point of ability damage becomes drain. No matter how many points of ability drain a creature takes from this disease in a day, it can only progress one stage per day.

On the first instance of ability drain, the creature suffers 2d6 charisma damage and gains the troglodyte stench ability of the pathfinder troglodyte with a DC of (10+1/2 level+Con). If a creture fails the save against stench then it must save vs the disease.
On the second instance of ability drain, the creature's tongue(s) rot whilst still inside of their mouth(s). This makes the creature unable to speak intelligibly with verbal communication or cast any spell with a verbal component.
On the third instance of ability drain, the creature's eye(s) rot while still in their sockets. This makes the creature blind. Creatures without eyes are immune to this effect.
On the fourth instance of ability drain, the creature loses access to any form of magic that they had and must make a will save or have their memories rot away as though under the effect of the mindrape spell.
On the fifth instance of ability drain, the creature will have an insatiable urge to seek out populated areas for when they meet their inevitable demise with a cheery sense of salvation waiting for them if they do.
And Once an ability score has been drained to 0, the infected creature will explode the next time there are (20xlevel) number of people within 150 feet of them, coating an area (objects and people) in viscera. For the next 24 hours those who touch anything (or anyone) who was in that area need to save vs the disease. The radius of the viscera is dependent on the size of the creature as detailed below.



Size
Radius


Fine
6 in.


Diminutive
1.25 ft.


Tiny
2.5 ft.


Small
5 ft.


Medium
10 ft.


Large
20 ft.


Huge
40 ft.


Gargantuan
80 ft.


Colossal
160 ft.


+additional size category
double previous radius



Secondly, a way to bypass the limit placed on grafts by Magic of Eberron and to save some sanity when dealing with both them and the older graft sources. The Eldritch Seed:

Eldritch Seed: An eldritch seed is a specially grown and psionically/magically/whateverically modified breed of fungus from the Dreamlands/Xoriat/Insert-Eldritch-Land-Name-Here. The fungus-like creature resembles a polyp found underwater and is grafted inside of the body on the section of the spine behind the heart. This process deals 2d20 HP damage and 1d4 con damage. Upon implantation, the seed begins to connect to the neural, muscular, and cardiovascular pathways of the creature it is within, infesting it with a strange mycelial growth over the next week and a half.

This seed adds +1 natural armour and +2 to fortitude and reflex saves. It also serves as a focus for grafts to alleviate some of the pressure on the mind: The grafted creature can have any number of graft types applied to them without suffering negative effects and can have an additional graft of any kind as though it does not occupy a slot. When dealing with grafts with the [Eldritch] tag (coming very soon...), the grafted creature can choose to hide them within themself as though they had extradimensional spaces within themselves big enough to hide them when not in use and does not take the normal con damage when getting additional eldritch grafts as the mycelium attaches the graft with no real damage.
Prerequisite: Graft Flesh(Eldritch) or Wyrdgrafter, Eldritch Taint; Market Price: 25,000 gp

Wyrdgrafter
You can apply draconic grafts to other living creatures or to yourself.
Prerequisite: Heal 10 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You can create eldritch grafts and apply them to other living creatures or to yourself Creating an eldritch graft takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To create a graft, you must spend 1/25 of the graft's price in XP and use up raw materials costing half this price.

[Aniikinis]

Thoughts? Nitpicks? Critiques? I'd love to hear.

[Quarian Rex]

Thoughts? Nitpicks? Critiques? I'd love to hear.

I really like the Eldritch Seed, both idea and execution. The Eberron graft limits were one of the larger missteps of 3.5 and I like seeing things that address the issue elegantly.

Babylon's Curse, while well crafted, rubs me in all the wrong ways. If I were to encounter it in a game, as a player, I would strongly suspect that it had no actual stats and was just whatever the DM thought would screw you over the most at any given moment. When crafting a version of something that is in the game (in this case a disease) then it should obey the general game conventions of that thing. Babylon's Curse acts like a disease (in the 3.P context) in name only and that is a problem, a problem with consequences that I don't think you intend. It just seems like a litany of unearned 'gotcha' moments of the worst kind from the DM.

Make a save vs disease because you get injured. What's that? You didn't get injured? Gotcha! It effects you even if it just touches you or you touch it. What's that? You never touched it? Well... do you breathe?!? Gotcha! It's an inhaled disease now! You have the disease and want to make a daily save to resist? Gotcha! You already failed one save so now I get to apply ability drain to you every day without letting you have another. It took you a couple of days for the Cleric to memorize enough Remove Disease spells for the entire party? Gotcha! That doesn't work anymore! What's that? You're happy that you made the save to prevent your tongue/eyes from falling out? Gotcha! I'll just keep making you do the saves until you fail. You'll be missing bits before the next time you can recover spells. What's that? You have Silent Spell and this will be the first time that feat is actually going to be useful to you in any game you have ever played? Gotcha! You can't use magic any more. You want a save against that? Ha-ha-ha! Who have you been playing with? Go ahead, make a save though. Ooooh, looks like you failed... Gotcha! Enjoy the Mindrape!!!

I get what you're trying to do here, and it is a well crafted... thing, but in its current form it violates so many conventions that it just comes off as straight-up dickery. Just a slower, more torturous version of 'rocks fall, everybody dies'. Worse still, it even makes a pretty terrible apocalypse disease as well. So long as someone has access to a 5th level Cleric in the first two days of infection then the character is cured completely. Apocalypse averted.

Here are some thoughts. Schizo vectors and DCs that are all over the place should not be things that exist. Contact, inhalation, and injury? WTH man? Pick one (I suggest contact, it is the most potent/versatile in most circumstances) and stick with it. The players taking actions to deal with the vector of the disease is something that should be encouraged, not continually subverted. Similar with the DC. Pick one (as per normal afflictions) and stick with it. Leave the DC at the highest (25), this is meant to be an apocalypse plague and saves shouldn't be easy. From there have it progress like a disease (allow saves daily and such) but tweak it in ways that actually exist in the game. Have you taken a look at the Disease Templates (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/) and Blinding Sickness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/diseases-paizo-inc/blinding-sickness/) for ideas on how to progress things?

If I were you I would have the base disease do 1 point of strength, dexterity, and constitution damage (to a minimum of 1) every day (this being the final damage of the disease after modifiers, save to resist as normal) needing 2 consecutive saves to resist (as is standard). From there I would make it a Lingering Ravaging Plague (as per the disease templates). Lingering would make it require four consecutive saves, making Remove Disease count as an additional successful save (not a cure) that can only be applied once per day, and, if cured, has a diminishing chance to come back in the following days. Ravaging means that if the save gets failed by five or more the ability damage becomes drain instead, makes the damage/drain unhealable till the disease has been cured, and it requires an extra consecutive save to cure (doubled by Lingering, for a total of six). Plague justifies the high DC and forces saves by anyone who touches objects touched by the infected for the next 24 hrs (will be more handy later). Add a note that any time an ability would be reduced below 1 by disease damage/drain then an additional point of ability damage becomes drain. Now you can apply additional effects based on the number of times the character suffers ability drain, only able to progress one stage per day.

On the first instance of ability drain roll for the Charisma damage (still can't be removed till cured due to Ravaging) and grant the troglodyte Stench ability. No matter which (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/samurai-sheepdog/troglodytes/) you use it is meant to be a limited use ability (not constant) with a low DC, keep it that way. Set the save to DC 10 + 1/2 the carrier's level + its Constitution modifier (as per norm) or be Sickened and the victim only needs to make a save vs the disease if he fails the save vs Stench. Lowered chance to spread this way but a consequence of attacking the victims. Second point of drain and the tongue rots. Third and the eyes rot away. Fourth and they lose magic/memory and feel the need to be around large groups of people. Fifth drain and they explode the next time there are X number of people within Y distance of them, coating an area (objects and people) in Z radius in viscera. For the next 24 hours those who touch anything (or anyone) who was in that area need to save vs the disease (thanks to Plague).

The end result is something very similar to what you had originally but it provides opportunities that the original did not and does a much better job ushering in the apocalypse. Infection vectors now make more sense and provide players something to work with/blunder into. The disease is extremely difficult to actually get rid of, yet is still something that can be dealt with at a pretty broad range of character levels (a skilled enough Heal check could keep it at bay for quite some time) but there are only so many healers of such skill. This results in a situation where commoners are popping like water balloons (as should be in an apocalypse) but the players can take actions to buy themselves (or any NPCs they care about) the time they need to deal with the situation. This also gives the DM an opportunity to provide info to the players in a believable way. This may be a completely new apocalypse plague, but a good enough Heal check can recognize the telltale characteristics of a disease that is Lingering, Ravaging, or a Plague. The DM doesn't have to spell everything out but a bookworm character can put that knowledge to work and get details on the templates as the other effects reveal themselves.

Sometimes you need more than well crafted crunch. Sometimes you need well crafted crunch that is playable in the game.

[Aniikinis]

I really like the Eldritch Seed, both idea and execution. The Eberron graft limits were one of the larger missteps of 3.5 and I like seeing things that address the issue elegantly.

Yeah, I always found that rule idiotic, and inspiration struck in the form of a graft to add on grafts.


Babylon's Curse, while well crafted, rubs me in all the wrong ways. If I were to encounter it in a game, as a player, I would strongly suspect that it had no actual stats and was just whatever the DM thought would screw you over the most at any given moment. When crafting a version of something that is in the game (in this case a disease) then it should obey the general game conventions of that thing. Babylon's Curse acts like a disease (in the 3.P context) in name only and that is a problem, a problem with consequences that I don't think you intend. It just seems like a litany of unearned 'gotcha' moments of the worst kind from the DM.

Make a save vs disease because you get injured. What's that? You didn't get injured? Gotcha! It effects you even if it just touches you or you touch it. What's that? You never touched it? Well... do you breathe?!? Gotcha! It's an inhaled disease now! You have the disease and want to make a daily save to resist? Gotcha! You already failed one save so now I get to apply ability drain to you every day without letting you have another. It took you a couple of days for the Cleric to memorize enough Remove Disease spells for the entire party? Gotcha! That doesn't work anymore! What's that? You're happy that you made the save to prevent your tongue/eyes from falling out? Gotcha! I'll just keep making you do the saves until you fail. You'll be missing bits before the next time you can recover spells. What's that? You have Silent Spell and this will be the first time that feat is actually going to be useful to you in any game you have ever played? Gotcha! You can't use magic any more. You want a save against that? Ha-ha-ha! Who have you been playing with? Go ahead, make a save though. Ooooh, looks like you failed... Gotcha! Enjoy the Mindrape!!!

Yeah, I'm seeing where you're getting that...


I get what you're trying to do here, and it is a well crafted... thing, but in its current form it violates so many conventions that it just comes off as straight-up dickery. Just a slower, more torturous version of 'rocks fall, everybody dies'. Worse still, it even makes a pretty terrible apocalypse disease as well. So long as someone has access to a 5th level Cleric in the first two days of infection then the character is cured completely. Apocalypse averted.

Here are some thoughts. Schizo vectors and DCs that are all over the place should not be things that exist. Contact, inhalation, and injury? WTH man? Pick one (I suggest contact, it is the most potent/versatile in most circumstances) and stick with it. The players taking actions to deal with the vector of the disease is something that should be encouraged, not continually subverted. Similar with the DC. Pick one (as per normal afflictions) and stick with it. Leave the DC at the highest (25), this is meant to be an apocalypse plague and saves shouldn't be easy. From there have it progress like a disease (allow saves daily and such) but tweak it in ways that actually exist in the game. Have you taken a look at the Disease Templates (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/) and Blinding Sickness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/diseases-paizo-inc/blinding-sickness/) for ideas on how to progress things?

Understood and I actually hadn't looked at anything regarding pathfinder's disease system.


If I were you I would have the base disease do 1 point of strength, dexterity, and constitution damage (to a minimum of 1) every day (this being the final damage of the disease after modifiers, save to resist as normal) needing 2 consecutive saves to resist (as is standard). From there I would make it a Lingering Ravaging Plague (as per the disease templates). Lingering would make it require four consecutive saves, making Remove Disease count as an additional successful save (not a cure) that can only be applied once per day, and, if cured, has a diminishing chance to come back in the following days. Ravaging means that if the save gets failed by five or more the ability damage becomes drain instead, makes the damage/drain unhealable till the disease has been cured, and it requires an extra consecutive save to cure (doubled by Lingering, for a total of six). Plague justifies the high DC and forces saves by anyone who touches objects touched by the infected for the next 24 hrs (will be more handy later). Add a note that any time an ability would be reduced below 1 by disease damage/drain then an additional point of ability damage becomes drain. Now you can apply additional effects based on the number of times the character suffers ability drain, only able to progress one stage per day.

On the first instance of ability drain roll for the Charisma damage (still can't be removed till cured due to Ravaging) and grant the troglodyte Stench ability. No matter which (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/samurai-sheepdog/troglodytes/) you use it is meant to be a limited use ability (not constant) with a low DC, keep it that way. Set the save to DC 10 + 1/2 the carrier's level + its Constitution modifier (as per norm) or be Sickened and the victim only needs to make a save vs the disease if he fails the save vs Stench. Lowered chance to spread this way but a consequence of attacking the victims. Second point of drain and the tongue rots. Third and the eyes rot away. Fourth and they lose magic/memory and feel the need to be around large groups of people. Fifth drain and they explode the next time there are X number of people within Y distance of them, coating an area (objects and people) in Z radius in viscera. For the next 24 hours those who touch anything (or anyone) who was in that area need to save vs the disease (thanks to Plague).

I'm definitely gonna be poring over pathfinder's mechanics and rules for this, and incorporating this into the overhaul.


The end result is something very similar to what you had originally but it provides opportunities that the original did not and does a much better job ushering in the apocalypse. Infection vectors now make more sense and provide players something to work with/blunder into. The disease is extremely difficult to actually get rid of, yet is still something that can be dealt with at a pretty broad range of character levels (a skilled enough Heal check could keep it at bay for quite some time) but there are only so many healers of such skill. This results in a situation where commoners are popping like water balloons (as should be in an apocalypse) but the players can take actions to buy themselves (or any NPCs they care about) the time they need to deal with the situation. This also gives the DM an opportunity to provide info to the players in a believable way. This may be a completely new apocalypse plague, but a good enough Heal check can recognize the telltale characteristics of a disease that is Lingering, Ravaging, or a Plague. The DM doesn't have to spell everything out but a bookworm character can put that knowledge to work and get details on the templates as the other effects reveal themselves.

Sometimes you need more than well crafted crunch. Sometimes you need well crafted crunch that is playable in the game.

Very good points. I'll overhaul it when I get back from work in the morning. Also...


Sometimes you need more than well crafted crunch. Sometimes you need well crafted crunch that is playable in the game.
can I sig that?

[Quarian Rex]

Looking forward to the re-write.




Sometimes you need more than well crafted crunch. Sometimes you need well crafted crunch that is playable in the game.
can I sig that?

Knock yourself out.

[Aniikinis]

Finally got enough time to read through pathfinder's disease stuff and rework it. I'd like to see what you think about it now. While looking through the diseases, I happened upon the Horrifying Diseases (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/horrifying-diseases/) section and I'm honestly kind of tempted to see how well it'd work with that format.

[Quarian Rex]

Finally got enough time to read through pathfinder's disease stuff and rework it. I'd like to see what you think about it now. While looking through the diseases, I happened upon the Horrifying Diseases (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/horrifying-diseases/) section and I'm honestly kind of tempted to see how well it'd work with that format.


It has been a while since I thought of Horrifying Diseases. I think that I just mentally put them in the same box as Corruption (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/corruption/) and then forgot about it. Re-looking at it now I would probably say that I would make it as a more intricate normal disease (templates and stages as mentioned before) rather than the Horrible version. While Horrible does focus on the multiple levels of progression that you want the format itself doesn't lend itself well to an apocalypse disease. The only reason for this is that the Horrible Diseases are just too easy to shake. They only require 2 consecutive saves to cure (or magic) and that does not an apocalypse plague make. That really isn't something that can be tweaked either since it gets multiplied by the stages. Anything more that 2 saves a stage really isn't playable.

I think that Lingering Ravaging Plague modified disease would actually be a far more credible threat to the players and the world, though that really depends on whether you, as the DM, want to give the BBEG the best plague weapon he can have, or just his best attempt. So, I guess you could really go either way depending on your design goals. Templated tweaked disease if you want to have the entire world die (probably including the PCs), or Horrible Disease if you want the world to have similar troubles but effectively give the PCs (and those they care to help or who are equally powerful) get-out-of-jail-free cards.

I'm interested to see what you do.