Rogue Tank... Magically?

[Mjolnirbear]

So I got a spur-of-the-moment character idea. A rogue tank. This was inspired by the Arcane Trickster thread, so the idea became an arcane rogue tank.

"Why don't you fluff a paladin?" I could, but not so rogueish. Also kinda want an avoidance thing going on.

So rogue it is. But there are so many options! My first is a multiclass hexrogue. You only need one level for: unified attack and casting stat, medium armor, all melee weapons.

To that I plan on a whip, Sentinel, and maybe Warcaster but prolly Spell Sniper. Booming Blade, natch.

Now I could go Arcane Trickster. It was my original thought. I'd semi-dump INT and choose none-save spells. I could also go swashbuckler.

And I'm kinda excited by the idea so I'm also thinking War Wizard or Battle master fighter as additional multiclass possibilities.

How would you build this concept?

[LudicSavant]

War Caster is pretty nasty on an AT tank. Barring teleportation and the like, it essentially gives your enemies a choice between staying next to you or exploding into little bits, because they just ate two sneak attacks and two Booming Blade riders in one turn. And that's if you're not spending your resources.

That's on top of things like letting you cast with a sword and shield in hand, and helping you Concentrate better.

[Corran]

Take note that the reactionary attack from sentinel only works if the target is within 5' of you, so sentinel does not play well with a reach weapon (well, with whip anyway, cause you want a finesse weapon).

When I hear rogue tank, the first thing that comes to mind is the iron scoundrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405449-Shield-Master-Rogue-The-Iron-Scoundrel&highlight=iron+scoundrel). So you might want to have a look at that.

About sentinel on a rogue, Multiclassing in battlemaster fighter is very important to a rogue that wants to play as a dedicated frontliner and make good use of sentinel. Very briefly, the reason is that to make good use of sentinel, you need: 1) a high AC (the fighter helps a lot in that respect) and 2) the riposte maneuver. No matter how counterintuitive it might seem to some, you really need riposte and a good AC to make good use of sentinel. Taking fighter levels also lands you many other good stuff but I wont go into that in this reply.

And if you are planning on playing a fighter/rogue multiclass, I would say that starting as fighter is better as it lands you better save proficiencies than by starting rogue (CON save proficiency is needed because you will want to use a few concentration spells (mainly blur and protection from evil when it applies, enlarge is another candidate if you went with the shield master feat), and it is also important to be proficient in wisdom saves. So starting fighter lets you get both (at the cost of losing dex; but with a DEX score of 14-20, depending if you went str-based or dex-based -both approaches have their con's and pro's-, and with evasion eventually, it's a loss worth suffering for the gain you get).

Mirror image is not all that good on characters that want to stay in the fray, and sentinel rogues do want to stay in the fray as opposed to the skirmishing of a more traditional rogue (sentinel rogue plays more like a fighter than a rogue, combat tactics wise). That is because it will last very briefly (only good as panic button, and you don't want a panic button, you want a reliable way to boost your effective AC -enter blur and protection from evil-, which indirectly but very surely, leads to a much more reliable use of the sentinel reactionary attack).

Regardless if you are going dex or str based, shield master (without the completely unnecessary nerf) is a very good way to optimize your action economy by getting access to a reliable use of your bonus action (remember, the sentinel rogue is not using cunning action to hit and run, he wants to stay up front within 5' of his enemies to make good use of the sentinel feat.

As I said earlier, riposte is very necessary (I will not explain why in this post, so I can keep it relatively brief), so if you are already planning for 3 fighter levels, then you might as well go up to 5, for extra attack (very important, for giving you another chance to sneak attack -as the ideal setup of the sentinel rogue IMO is S&B -regardless if you take shield master or not-. That's cause as I said in the very beginning, you really need to boost your AC as much as possible. Having a high effetctive AC -and access to riposte- is what makes the sentinel rogue both viable and extremelly efficient, I cannot emphasize this enough! Also, extra attack is useful when you want to shove (all of SM, enlarge and athletics expertise help here), to cancel out potential disadvantage (other ways to try to cancel disadvantage -which shuts down your sneak attack, so having ways to cancel disadvantage is a very big deal- are through a familiar and through the feinting battlemaster maneuver (I would pick it as my 3rd maneuver, along with the very important riposte and precision; feinting complements your maneuvres in a very efficient way, as it is situationally golden, and you need a good situational maneuver since riposte but mainly precision will need all the superiority dice you can give them).
And if you take extra attack (ie fighrer 5), you don't want to aim for a fighter5/rogue15 split (unless you are starting at level 20), cause that would mean not having the very important wisdom save proficiency till you are 20th level (so your poor wisdom saves would be a huge weak point of your build). So 6/14 or 7/13 are good splits for a 20th level battlemaster sentinel rogue.
Edit: The feinting maneuver (and to a lesser extent uncanny dodge) play well with your back up tactics which you apply when you find your sentinel rogue fighting alone (eg you melee buddy -on whom you rely for triggering sentinel- drops unconscious, or your scouting failed). Then you want to play as a skirmisher, so you use feinting to give yourself advantage so that you can apply sneak attack damage -also to improve your chances of delivering a good payload of damage- and BB with your action (you move away taking OA's -since feinting uses your bonus action, so you can't use cunning action disengage- which is how uncanny dodge comes in).

Without giving any reasoning (to speed this up), fighter 1 -> fighter 1/rogue 5 -> fighter 5/rogue 5 -> fighter 5/rogue 7 is the progression I would follow till character level 12. I would take sentinel at 9th level and not sooner (too risky before that IMO; perhaps you can pull it off, depending on the difficulty of the battles in your campaign, but still, I would choose not to rush it). Other good feats are SM (as I mentioned earlier), resilient wisdom (also mentioned earlier), maxing attack stat (whether it is dex or str) and boosting con with the last (couple) ASI's.

If dex based, I would start with stats roughly (due to not determining the race) like this:
STR 12, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 8.

If str based, I would go with stats (roughly) like that:
STR 16, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 8.

Both approaches have advantages but I think that what weights a lot into this decision, is if you want your character to be stealthy. If you want both to be str based and to be stealthy, a nice compromise is selecting earth genasi as your race, as it has stats suited to the str based build, and it also allows you to cast pass without a trace once per day, which kind of cancels the disadvantage to stealth checks due to heavy armor (later on, stealth expertise and reliable talent help even more in that respect). Of course they miss darkvision (which IMO is very counterintuitive after having read their lore text), so it's far from a perfect fit.

Other good choices for a race is variant human and stout halfling (for the dex build). Both lack darkvision.



One could mess a bit with the starting stats, lowering con and boosting int (to make some better use of the trickster's spellcasting). I prefer spending the points on CON (as this character is a frontliner, and apart from self buff casting -paired with action surge so that you wont miss on sneak attack opportunities-, this build has no place for spellcasting in combat. But it would be viable.

So, the int version, would essentially lower CON to 14 and use the spare points for boosting INT (this works better for a dex based build, since the dex build has more spare points than the str build, due to wanting less points on a tertiary stat; the dex build wants 12 str, the str build wants 14 dex). In this case, any race pumping DEX and one of CON/INT is a good choice. Preferably one with darkvision, as scouts need darkvision, and since you went dex based, then you need to be a scout to make the most out of it (at the cost of 1 AC, important cost as I talked and talked a lot about the importance of AC for this build, but I think that stealth is worth it; else, why did you go with a dex build? Initiative and dex saves are not enough on their own to justify it, at least for this builds that has good uses for athletics and that needs every point of AC it can get -heavy armors grant you a better AC-).

PS: Obviously, to make the sentinel rogue work, you need an ally opting to fight next to you (also he should not take the sentinel feat). A durable GWM melee buddy is the ideal such ally, and you need him to make for a more valuable target than you to the enemy (we are doing our fair share optimization wise to work towards that direction -ie throwing off of us the aggro that sentinel draws on us, via boosting our effetcie AC and by taking riposte, but our melee ally buddy plays a part in that too, so if he is a GWM it helps, if he is a turtle it does not help). It's all about making sentinel trigger as often as we can, that's what we are truly optimizing here. that you may find useful, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496792-Theorycrafting-sentinel-rogue) is an old thread that tries to go a bit more in depth about it.*

*The thread is old, and if I was going to do a sentinel rogue now, I would deviate a bit from my plan in the op (mainly I would definitely take at least 2 more fighter levels for extra attack, possibly more to avoid slippery mind, as I would also plan for resilient wisdom). But there are some useful things in it still (I dare say), and there is definitely a lot of value in the other posts of the thread too.

[Arkhios]

I'd make Mirror Image my ideal go-to option as a spell. It's illusion so it shouldn't be a problem for Arcane Trickster. Also, because as a rogue, you're likely to have Dexterity maxed, so it'll be incredibly difficult to break (since each Image has AC equal to 10 + your Dexterity modifier). Plus, it doesn't require concentration, which is definitely a big bonus.

[Nifft]

Barbarian / Rogue is one of the tankiest builds in the game.

I'm sure you can also do great things with Arcane Trickster, but give the Barbarian a look too.

[Arkhios]

Barbarian / Rogue is one of the tankiest builds in the game.

I'm sure you can also do great things with Arcane Trickster, but give the Barbarian a look too.

Although it can be argued that even barbarian is a "magical class", Barbarian/Rogue does kinda go against the other half of the thread: Magical

[Nifft]

And I'm kinda excited by the idea so I'm also thinking War Wizard or Battle master fighter as additional multiclass possibilities.


Although it can be argued that even barbarian is a "magical class", Barbarian/Rogue does kinda go against the other half of the thread: Magical

Did you not even read the OP? Non-magical tank classes are explicitly included.

-- -- --

Anyway, @Mjolnirbear - You'd do well to take a look at the benchmark Rogue tank, which is a Barbarian / Rogue. With Arcane Trickster as your Rogue subclass, and Totem (bear) as your Barbarian subclass, you can get incredible damage mitigation.

Abjurer is a nice mix-in, too, since temporary HP are 4x as effective under bear totem rage + Uncanny Dodge.

[JellyPooga]

Anyway, @Mjolnirbear - You'd do well to take a look at the benchmark Rogue tank, which is a Barbarian / Rogue. With Arcane Trickster as your Rogue subclass, and Totem (bear) as your Barbarian subclass, you can get incredible damage mitigation.

Abjurer is a nice mix-in, too, since temporary HP are 4x as effective under bear totem rage + Uncanny Dodge.

I too would probably go Barbarian/Rogue; the Rage bonus damage is great for a whip build, taking that awful 1d4 damage up to the same average as a longsword or battleaxe and the damage reduction from the same feature combimed with Uncanny Dodge makes your HP work so much harder for you (turning a 40 damage hit into 10 is pure gold). With damage mitigation like that, AC is not so important.

Where I differ is in going Bear Totem. For the most part, resisting non-BPS damage is frequently redundant, even more so once you get Evasion. Wolf Totem is far more party friendly and exemplifies your role as Tank; helping your allies just by standing next to your foes while rocking the ability to stay standing; perfect synergy.

A lot of people rag on Whip+Sentinel, but I don't. Reach gives you control. Sentinel forces your opponent to decide between A) attacking you to little effect, B) attacking your adjacent friend (who has advantage to hit from Wolf Totem) and eating an OA, or C) attempting to move away at risk of losing the rest of their movement. With a Whip, option C becomes that much more effective, because the OA that triggers the loss of movement happens 10ft away from you, potentially leaving the target high and dry and unable to attack. This level of virtually resource-free battlefield control is invaluable in more open-field combat.

[Arkhios]

Did you not even read the OP? Non-magical tank classes are explicitly included.

I did, but Barbarian is pretty much the anathema of magical tank, because you can't cast or concentrate on spells while raging. I'm aware there are many spells (Mirror Image for example) that can be cast before raging, and still benefit from them, but there are more problems than benefits in it.

[Mjolnirbear]

Arkhios makes a good point. Magical is the idea. I included battle master because, well, it has so. Many. Goodies. But I would want to play a caster. Even if I go arcane trickster, I'm telling you, two levels of rogue with no spells will be rough. I love the pally, yet that delay in all the spell slots was downright painful.

But I do want to see other versions. I'm prejudiced against barbarians, and it doesn't work with booming blade or Hex warrior. But the ancestor barbarian is both good tank material and pretty supernatural, and I do like the flavour... Meh, I probably couldn't bring myself to play it.

At any rate I asked 'How would you build it' not 'help me build it' because if you're like me, your mind starts frantically rolling through possibilities and that makes for good ideas and out of the box thinking.

[JellyPooga]

Arkhios makes a good point. Magical is the idea. I included battle master because, well, it has so. Many. Goodies. But I would want to play a caster. Even if I go arcane trickster, I'm telling you, two levels of rogue with no spells will be rough. I love the pally, yet that delay in all the spell slots was downright painful.

But I do want to see other versions. I'm prejudiced against barbarians, and it doesn't work with booming blade or Hex warrior. But the ancestor barbarian is both good tank material and pretty supernatural, and I do like the flavour... Meh, I probably couldn't bring myself to play it.

At any rate I asked 'How would you build it' not 'help me build it' because if you're like me, your mind starts frantically rolling through possibilities and that makes for good ideas and out of the box thinking.

It's worth bearing in mind that while you can't cast while Raging, you'll only have 2 uses of Rage until you're hitting the big leagues and even then, you may not have more depending on your build and how far jnto Batbarian you go. Having spells and cantrips for the small fights gived you much greater flexibility and longevity over the course of an adventuring day.

[Lunali]

I too would probably go Barbarian/Rogue; the Rage bonus damage is great for a whip build, taking that awful 1d4 damage up to the same average as a longsword or battleaxe and the damage reduction from the same feature combimed with Uncanny Dodge makes your HP work so much harder for you (turning a 40 damage hit into 10 is pure gold). With damage mitigation like that, AC is not so important.

It's worth noting that you only get the rage bonus if you're attacking with strength, though if you do, that also means you can use reckless attack to allow sneak attacks when allies aren't around.

[vexedart]

1 Cleric(any with heavy armor proficiency)/X AT Rogue, strength based was pretty fun.

Eventually you’re rocking full plate, a shield, shield of faith, and the shield spell. 22-27 AC with no magic items.

Bless or guidance+Expertise+Find Familiar help action, makes it hard to fail a skill check.

Booming blade+Sneak attack+warcaster for damage, they don’t want to be next to you anyways, because they can’t hit you reliably.

Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9
Human for +1 all ability scores for multiclassing rules.

[LudicSavant]

Simply going straight or 1 level dip Arcane Trickster is good. Your main question is going to be where you're getting your shield proficiency from. The popular options are the Moderately Armored half-feat (which can give you +1 Dex while you're at it), Fighter 1 (which also gets you the Defense fighting style), Cleric 1 (no Defense fighting style, but you boost your AT spell slot progression and get some other goodies depending on domain) or Barbarian 1 (if you rolled high on stats and therefore have 13 Strength for the multiclass qualification, plus high enough stats for your Dex+Con to beat out Medium Armor).

And I must emphasize that you do want a Shield proficiency, because ATs scale quite well with AC. In addition to the usual reasons that pushing AC higher for tanks is good, the way Uncanny Dodge works (halving the damage of one attack) means that your effective durability gets a big boost around the point where you start getting hit an average of 1 time or less per turn. It also synergizes with some of your defensive spells.

Some notable abilities that make Arcane Tricksters durable:

Uncanny Dodge: reaction to cut damage of an attack in half
Evasion: Against anything with a Dex save, this is straight up better than Resistance. You cut the damage in half even if you fail the save, or negate it entirely if you make it. Dragon breath can cut chunks out of Fighters but rolls right off of you.
Slippery Mind: You know how everyone recommends taking "Resilient: Wisdom" as a Fighter or Barbarian? Well, you don't have to, because you just got that Wisdom Proficiency from your class features. Basically frees you up to take a different ASI.
Elusive: Enemies cannot get Advantage on attacks against you unless you're incapacitated, period. Against some enemies (including some of the heavier hitters) this is a huge cut into their DPR. Moreso because of the way Uncanny Dodge affects the curve.
Stroke of Luck: After you fail a saving throw, you can decide that you didn't fail, 1/short rest.
Spell Thief: When an enemy casts a spell at you, you can use a Reaction to make them make a saving throw. If they fail, the spell doesn't affect you, and you can cast the spell, and they can't cast the spell again for 8 hours, even if they have more slots or whatever. Only 1/long rest, but still.
Spells! Obviously there's things like Blur and Misty Step that simply make you eat more attacks, but there's also things like Misty Step which make a wide variety of nasty effects less detrimental to you.
Cunning Action means that you are considerably more mobile than the average bear(barian), able to get yourself to the front line or get yourself off of it if things go south.

[DeanH]

Barbarian/Arcane Trickster is perfectly playable if you're willing to take five levels of barbarian. The second attack means you won't miss BB/GFB so much, and much of the AT's utility is out of and pre-combat.

[Citan]

So I got a spur-of-the-moment character idea. A rogue tank. This was inspired by the Arcane Trickster thread, so the idea became an arcane rogue tank.

"Why don't you fluff a paladin?" I could, but not so rogueish. Also kinda want an avoidance thing going on.

So rogue it is. But there are so many options! My first is a multiclass hexrogue. You only need one level for: unified attack and casting stat, medium armor, all melee weapons.

To that I plan on a whip, Sentinel, and maybe Warcaster but prolly Spell Sniper. Booming Blade, natch.

Now I could go Arcane Trickster. It was my original thought. I'd semi-dump INT and choose none-save spells. I could also go swashbuckler.

And I'm kinda excited by the idea so I'm also thinking War Wizard or Battle master fighter as additional multiclass possibilities.

How would you build this concept?
Easy. ;)
First things first: Rogue as in Rogue tank: start with Rogue 3 for Arcane Trickster.
Then go Bladesinger Wizard 2.
Then bring up Bear Barbarian 3.
By that time, you are incredibly powerful out of rage (Booming Blade + Sneak Attack + possibly Shadow Blade) are incredibly tanky within (Mirror Image + Bladesong + Unarmored or Light armor + Rage resistance).

Thing is, so far most of your resilience comes from rage + bladesong, if you use too many spells on defense you'll quickly deplete slots.
Also, damage is a bit off. Let's take care of both.
Push up to Rogue 7 for Evasion (even better defense, especially with Danger Sense),
Combine with Barbarian 5 (Extra Attack so better chance to land Sneak Attack when raging) OR Wizard 7, picking Fire Shield and getting Extra Attack still.
If you can spare the CHA one way or another, you could instead go for the Fiend Blade Warlock 7 for short-rest slots spent on Fire Shield and Armor of Agathys or Warlock 1 / Sorcerer 7 to Extend them as well as Aid/Death Ward/Spirit Guardians.

Recap?
Pure INT: AT Rogue 9 / Bladesinger Wizard 11.
With Barb: AT Rogue 5 / Bear Barb 3 / Bladesinger 3 then push whatever class you prefer (my suggestion for end build: AT Rogue 9 / Barb 4 / Bladesinger 7).
Fortes: when out of rage, Magical Ambush works great with Slow/Hypnotic Pattern/etc.


Pure CHA: AT or Swashbuckler Rogue 9 / Hexblade Warlock 1 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 8 (start R5/W1/DS3 then work up).
Fortes: many great spells to increase resilience, either insane Initiative (Swash) or Magical Ambush, Extended buffs (Mage Armor, Aid, Death Ward, Warding Bond on friend, Darkvision if needed) that work even while raging (precast of course) and Twin goodies (Sanctuary on friends, Command on enemies), with optional Polymorph/Fire Shield/Spirit Guardians.

Pure DEX gish: AT 8 (Rope Trick) / Bear Barbarian 4 / Fiend Blade Warlock 7 / Draconic Sorcerer 1: pretty decent AC, extreme resilience (Constitution proficiency from Sorcerer + Dexterity advantage and no-damage from Barbarian and Rogue) + Mirror Image before raging.
Signature tactic will be prebuffing self with Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield then hacking away while raging, keeping slots to set up short rests with Rope Trick.

Main WIS&DEX: Arcane Trickster Rogue 9+ / Nature Cleric 7+, mix up some Monk if you want.
Idea here is to hit hard, possibly helping self with Shield of Faith/Aid/Mirror Image when needed, while maintaining either Spirit Guardians or Plant Growth to keep enemies towards you, using Thorns Whip/Command occasionally.


And for the road: pure martial tank.
Thief Rogue 7 or Swash Rogue 9 / Battlemaster 3 / Long Death (Fear as action) or Open Hand Monk X
Obviously Goading attack will be your go-to manoeuver, as well as using caltrops to hinder enemy or Healer kit to heal you/allies.
Otherwise, you'll mix up Shove/Grapple effects to control battlefield while inflicting Sneak Attack.

Hope these few quick&dirty builds can inspire you. Enjoy ;)



Where I differ is in going Bear Totem. For the most part, resisting non-BPS damage is frequently redundant, even more so once you get Evasion. Wolf Totem is far more party friendly and exemplifies your role as Tank; helping your allies just by standing next to your foes while rocking the ability to stay standing; perfect synergy.

Hmm that is a fair point, although it should be stressed that not all elemental damage comes as failing a DEX save. But it does certainly represent a large chunk of everything an adventurer could face any given day (possibly a majority -putting aside normal weapon attacks obviously).

Soo, yeah, Wolf can be a great alternative choice with 1 melee friend, probably the better with two or more. :)

[Mjolnirbear]

I'm leaning towards;

S8/D14/D14/x/w10/x

Where X is 16 or 12, depending on if I go wizard or warlock.

Rogue3/warlock3, Hexlock using Cha to attack and cast, shield and smite spells to power spell slots, critfishing on the boss, and a free advantage generator

Or /wiz3 instead, war wizard, for arcane defection, Shield, and Int to initiative

I do want the whip, so Hexlock works great for it. Probably AT instead of swashbuckler because of the invisible hand and extra spell slots

[DivisibleByZero]

If I were building a Rogue tank, I would do it as follows (and in fact I have):

Elf, primary Dex, secondary Int, tertiary Con (12-14), moderate Wis (10-12), dump Str & Cha
lvl1) Wizard 1 (yep, I said it, I'd start Wiz for that Wis save)
lvl2) Rogue 1 & 2
lvl4) Wiz 2 (Bladesinger)
lvl5) Rog 3 (Trickster) and beyond, until at least Rog 5
Eventually toss Wiz 3 in there for more 2nd level spells. And if you plan on going high enough, potentially 5 Wiz levels for (more) 3rd level spells (faster).

Studded leather with max Dex and even a couple of points from Int while Bladesinging places you on even ground with heavily armored tanks for AC, which is surpassed as needed with a reactionary Shield spell, or uses a reaction for Uncanny Dodge to halve the damage if they would get past your Shielded AC (or if you want to save a slot).
It works.

[Serafina]

Personally, I'd do the following:


Variant Human Arcane Trickster 3, with the Sentinel feat.
Thanks to Cunning Action, you can always safely move next to an enemy to set up Sentinel. Thanks to Sentinel, they have to attack you or eat a Sneak Attack.
At this point we have to pump up our survivability. How do we do that?


Battle Master 3 and the Evasive Footwork and Riposte Maneuvers, as well as one other.
This does so much. Shield proficiency for +2 AC (and more with magical shields). Defense Fighting Style for +1 AC. Second Wind for emergency healing. Action Surge to get defensive spells set up right away. Riposte presents a nice Catch-22 - now if the enemy attacks you, they eat a sneak attack, if they attack an ally, they eat a sneak attack. Fancy Footwork is a better defensive option than parry because it doesn't eat a reaction - if we want to spend our reaction on defense, we already get Uncanny Dodge. For the third maneuver, any that works on a weapon attack works.


Arcane Trickster 7
Level 5 gives Uncanny Dodge, which is great when needed. Level 7 gives Evasion, and also 2nd-level spells which include the first powerful defense spells, Blur and Mirror Image. Higher Sneak Attack makes the character more threatening, which is always good for a tank.


Anything goes
I'd personally just advance Arcane Trickster - you'll still get good things on the way, and more Sneak Attack will greaty increase your damage output. Sure you don't advance much in terms of spellcasting, but do you really need that?
Still, there's alternatives. Bladesinder clashes with using a shield, but how about Abjuration Wizard? The Arcane Ward lets you keep up your hit points compared to Rogue, and you'd cap out at 5th-level spells (with 6th-level slots) instead of 3rd-level spells. I personally don't think it's worth it, but hey maybe you like it.