PHB/XGtE Gloom Stalker vs RR Deep Stalker

[Escribblings]

Sorry to be a pain. I do most of my playing through DnDBeyond and UA PDFs on my phone, and struggle to compare things side by side if they're not printed and in front of me to scribble on.

I'm struggling to see the differences between these, and was wondering if one of you guys could spell it out to me.

Our GM allows both XGtE and RR, so I'm trying to work out which is better, and why - or if they have their own individual strengths.

I've also read about people wanting to combine the 2 (RR Gloom Stalker), with comments that this is OP and game breaking.

I'm guessing my GM wouldn't allow the combo, but again, can someone explain why this would be the case?

Thanks in advance.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry to be a pain. I do most of my playing through DnDBeyond and UA PDFs on my phone, and struggle to compare things side by side if they're not printed and in front of me to scribble on.

I'm struggling to see the differences between these, and was wondering if one of you guys could spell it out to me.

Our GM allows both XGtE and RR, so I'm trying to work out which is better, and why - or if they have their own individual strengths.

I've also read about people wanting to combine the 2 (RR Gloom Stalker), with comments that this is OP and game breaking.

I'm guessing my GM wouldn't allow the combo, but again, can someone explain why this would be the case?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, but what is RR?

Gloom Stalker is not game breaking, some people are just vastly exaggerating the usefulness of the powers it get.

[Escribblings]

Sorry, but what is RR?

Gloom Stalker is not game breaking, some people are just vastly exaggerating the usefulness of the powers it get.

Revised Ranger, sorry.

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf

I'm not saying that either the Players Handbook Ranger base class with XGtE Gloom Stalker archetype, OR the Unearthed Arcana Revised Ranger base class and Deep Stalker are game breaking.

It's that I can't see what the differences are between them, and it has been intimated that some people are trying to use the Unearthed Arcana base class with the Xanathar's archetype and that THIS is over powered - but again, I don't understand why.

[CTurbo]

The Revised Ranger is hands down superior to the phb Ranger. That's easy.

That being said, the Gloom Stalker is superior to the Deep Stalker as far as I know since the Gloom version gives you an initiative boost and an extra 1d8 damage in the extra attack.


I would choose Revised Ranger + Deep Stalker over phb Ranger + Gloom Stalker though.

[Aerogellin]

There's also the point that Gloom Stalker keywords that you are invisible to any creature that relies on darkvision to see you, so if they can see invisibility and have darkvision you can't hide from them.

The RR Deep Stalker has no such limitation. Nothing gets to use darkvision to detect you.

[Escribblings]

The Revised Ranger is hands down superior to the phb Ranger. That's easy.

...

But why?

I've looked at both and I can't see the difference?

What am I missing?

(As I said above, I can't compare side by side as I'm using DnDBeyond and the UA PDFs on my phone.

While I can flick between the 2, I'm struggling to see the differences.

[Teaguethebean]

But why?

I've looked at both and I can't see the difference?

What am I missing?

The RR's natural explorer is far better than favored terrain the favored enemy is better on RR and remember if you put gloom stalker on RR you wouldn't get Extra attack they just aren't compatible.

[thoroughlyS]

The Revised Ranger is hands down superior to the phb Ranger. That's easy.
But why?

I've looked at both and I can't see the difference?

What am I missing?

(As I said above, I can't compare side by side as I'm using DnDBeyond and the UA PDFs on my phone.

While I can flick between the 2, I'm struggling to see the differences.
The Revised Ranger was directly designed to shore up the perceived shortcomings of the PHB Ranger:

Favored Enemy adds bonus damage and gives any language.
Natural Explorer applies to all terrains, ignores difficult terrain, grants advantage to initiative, and grants advantage when attacking a creature that hasn't acted yet.
Primeval Awareness actually does something now, doesn't cost spell slots, and lets you deal with beasts.
Greater Favored Enemy exist and grants advantage on saves versus your new favored enemy.
Fleet of Foot is added to fill the hole left by lumping Land's Stride into Natural Explorer.
Hide in Plain Sight will actually see use in play.
Foe Slayer can be used against anyone, not just favored enemies.
The biggest changes were made to Beast Master, but that doesn't address your question.

Gloom Stalker is a revised version of Deep Stalker, with minor tweaks because it uses the PHB Ranger base. Therefore a Gloom Stalker Revised Ranger basically double dips on certain goodies, like advantage and WIS to initiative. I personally would keep them seperate (and use Revised ranger, because it feels better).

[Escribblings]

Ok...

I think I'm beginning to see the differences now.


And it's thrown a small spanner in the works of my latest character...

He is a Rogue Ranger planning Assassin Gloom Stalker.

Interestingly the RR natural explorer clashes with Assassin..

On your first turn during combat, you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures that have not yet acted.

Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a*critical hit.

The only difference being the crits on surprise (which is situational).

This to me is +1 to RR:DS as it'll bring the advantage online at level 2 instead of level 8 (I was planning rogue 1 ranger 5 then rogue to 5).

Plus, I note the favoured enemy of RR:DS gives a +2 to damage to ALL of that type. Whereas the PHB ranger doesn't, and makes you narrow down the favoured enemy even further. At 6th level, that becomes +4!

Another +1 to the RR:DS

The XGtE:GS adds my WIS to initiative, but the RR:DS gives me advantage, and 2 levels earlier.

So 1d20+7 or 2d20+4 dropping lowest...

A quick roll test

1d20+7

*6,10,13,11,2,9,1,11,4,18 = 13, 17, 20, 18, 9, 16, 8, 18, 11, 25 = 15.5 avg.

2d20+4 dropping lowest

11,14 : 18,19 : 6,10 : 9,9 : 11,16 : 4,5 : 18,9 : 13,14 : 20,17 : 19,16 = 18, 23, 14, 13, 20, 9, 22, 18, 24, 23, = 17.4 avg

Another +1 to the RR:DS

So I'm now beginning to see why a RR:GS might be OP, lol.

On attacks where the creature has yet to take a turn, the RR:DS gets an additional attack (for me this would be a minimum of 1d6+3 or 7avg), XGtE:GS only gets an additional 1d8 (5 avg).

Another+1 for RR:DS

But now I'm also wondering if the Hunter conclave might suit my character better mechanically.

I'd lose darkvision and the ability to hide against darkvision (again, RR:DS is greater on both these counts), but I'd gain things like Colossus Slayer - as a TWF with sneak attack, that's 1d6+1d8 extra per turn! And the advantage on attacks comes from natural explorer rather than assassin.

Then there's things like Defensive tactics - which make taking ranger to 7 and 8 more appealing (8's fleet of foot is duplicated by cunning action, but it still gets an ASI).

So this leaves me wondering about the Rogue multiclass.

With RR natural explorer effectivity wiping out assassin, I'm thinking of going thief for the additional bonus action options. But open to suggestions.

[thoroughlyS]

The XGtE:GS adds my WIS to initiative, but the RR:DS gives me advantage, and 2 levels earlier.

...

A quick roll test
Your test isn't entirely accurate. According to AnyDice (https://anydice.com/program/11ef3) 1d20 +7 and 2d20b1 + 4 are nearly identical, with averages of 17.5 and 17.82 respectively. Technically, adding WIS is better than advantage if you raise your Wisdom to 18.

On attacks where the creature has yet to take a turn, the RR:DS gets an additional attack (for me this would be a minimum of 1d6+3 or 7avg), XGtE:GS only gets an additional 1d8 (5 avg).
Gloom Stalker also gets the additional attack, and that attack deals the additional damage if it hits. This means dealing 1d6 + 1d8 + 3 (11) at minimum. Basically: if you win, you win big.

But now I'm also wondering if the Hunter conclave might suit my character better mechanically.

I'd lose darkvision and the ability to hide against darkvision (again, RR:DS is greater on both these counts), but I'd gain things like Colossus Slayer - as a TWF with sneak attack, that's 1d6+1d8 extra per turn! And the advantage on attacks comes from natural explorer rather than assassin.
Colossus Slayer is only once per turn like Sneak Attack, so Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't multiply the damage, just makes it more consistent.

So this leaves me wondering about the Rogue multiclass.

With RR natural explorer effectivity wiping out assassin, I'm thinking of going thief for the additional bonus action options. But open to suggestions.
I recommend Swashbuckler 3/Deep Stalker 5 as a base. Fancy Footwork means that you can still get away after hitting something twice and Rakish Audacity means you can utilize Sneak Attack more often. Extra Attack will be delayed, but the extra damage from Sneak Attack should keep you from feeling useless.

[Escribblings]

Your test isn't entirely accurate. According to AnyDice (https://anydice.com/program/11ef3) 1d20 +7 and 2d20b1 + 4 are nearly identical, with averages of 17.5 and 17.82 respectively. Technically, adding WIS is better than advantage if you raise your Wisdom to 18.
Good point, I just did it off a sample of rolls rather than working the odds. However, I'm more likely to be raising DEX, whether I can raise WIS as well is another matter.

Gloom Stalker also gets the additional attack, and that attack deals the additional damage if it hits. This means dealing 1d6 + 1d8 + 3 (11) at minimum. Basically: if you win, you win big.
Thank you - I had missed that, so this one is actually in favour of XGtE:GS


Colossus Slayer is only once per turn like Sneak Attack, so Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't multiply the damage, just makes it more consistent.Yes, I did say per turn, not per attack. But with TWF it's almost guaranteed on the first turn as well as subsequent.


I recommend Swashbuckler 3/Deep Stalker 5 as a base. Fancy Footwork means that you can still get away after hitting something twice and Rakish Audacity means you can utilize Sneak Attack more often. Extra Attack will be delayed, but the extra damage from Sneak Attack should keep you from feeling useless.
I'll have to look into that.

[Randomthom]

Technically by RAW you won't get an extra attack at lvl 5 if you use RR and Gloomstalker from XGTE as extra attack is contained in the sub-classes in RR, not in the base class. That being said, I think your GM would have to be a real stickler to deny it to you which I'm guessing he/she isn't since they're already allowing the user of RR!

[Escribblings]

Well, both get it at L5 but in different ways.

However, seeing how they differ, I doubt he'd allow the cross.
It would be PHB XGtE Gloom Stalker OR Revised Ranger Deep Stalker.

And I'm not even going to ask.

We have the choice, I think that is fair enough.

[thoroughlyS]

Good point, I just did it off a sample of rolls rather than working the odds. However, I'm more likely to be raising DEX, whether I can raise WIS as well is another matter.

Yeah, I figured WIS wouldn't be top priority. I just like to give answers as completely as possible.

Yes, I did say per turn, not per attack. But with TWF it's almost guaranteed on the first turn as well as subsequent.
My mistake, I read the "1d6 + 1d8" as Two-Weapon Fighting's second shortsword attack with Colossus Slayer, not as Sneak Attack and Colossus Slayer.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well, both get it at L5 but in different ways.

However, seeing how they differ, I doubt he'd allow the cross.
It would be PHB XGtE Gloom Stalker OR Revised Ranger Deep Stalker.

And I'm not even going to ask.

We have the choice, I think that is fair enough.

The easiest thing to do to balance it would just be to add Extra Attack at 5.

The Revised versions have an "Extra Attack substitute" built into the subclasses at level 5, which results in Hunter Conclave getting an Extra Attack and Beast Master Conclave getting a special pet attack.

I'm not 100% sure on the balance of the Xanathar's Rangers getting spell lists vs. the Ranger Conclave not having an expanded spell list. But for anyone interested, here's a fleshed out list of options for both the default Rangers if they got expanded spell lists, with balance considered:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/131163/would-giving-phb-ranger-archetypes-extra-spells-known-unbalance-them
Just scroll down to KorvinStarmast for spell considerations and Daniel Zastoupil for balance concerns.

The best idea was to offer Awaken as a level 5 spell for Beast Masters. That doesn't kick in until Ranger level 17, but think about how cool it'd be to finish your campaign with a sentient creature.