Guns and other firearms

[stewstew5]

So for those of you that have used guns in campaigns, what's a good method of balancing them or using them in the first place? I'm going to be asking for a revolver for my bounty hunter so keep that in mind :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Reskinned crossbows is the easiest.

[DarthPenance]

Well, there is the optional rules in the Dungeon Master Guide.
One that I find effective, which I use is the one from the Gunslinger subclass created by Mattew Mercer, in the class there is the weapons there, however this will restrict the firearms to a single subclass, unless you use feats, and it get's a few problems if you include magic items and how to find ammo, if you want you can find it by googling it to see how it works, but it basically has a misfire, which if the dice is that number or lower the weapon misfires, and you use an attack to reload the gun.

[stewstew5]

I was thinking of a clip-based style, giving it a slightly higher damage per attack in return for spending an action reloading (6 in this case) shots

[Talyn]

If you use magazine or clip-fed weapons with a higher damage potential than bows or crossbows, everyone is going to use them. The action cost of reloading is going to be a non-issue - a six-shot revolver, if you fire one bullet per round, will last you through almost all combats without needing a reload. If you get more attacks per round, or for some reason combat runs long, it will be trivial for both PCs and enemies to carry multiple guns.

There is also the issue that six-shot revolvers and repeating rifles are 19th century inventions (I know, gun historians, that there were a tiny handful of them in the 18th century, but they were made reliable and practical in the 19th), technology three hundred years or so more advanced than the next-most-sophisticated piece of mundane equipment available. Unless your group wants to play an unusual D&D game, it will harm the verisimilitude and create problems of genre expectations around the table.

On the other hand, if you use more historically realistic firearms, single shot with long reloading times, nobody is going to use them as their primary weapon - or, if they do, will be carrying around six or eight guns at all times to avoid the reloading issue.

[stewstew5]

and this is the discussion I wanted. and I have 4 points to make.

but remember that ammo is a consideration--a tool i feel a lot of people fail to consider in balancing is the omnipotence of the dungeon master. What if the clips for a six-shot revolver are expensive or just downright hard to find?

similarily, not every character wants to use a revolver. I can think multiple situations where i sacrificed effectiveness for a style

thirdly, as to everyone using one, it is very easy to make it a unique item from my past, or an excessively rare one.


and finaly, I don't think the damage ramp up would be huge. a d8 instead of a d6 for a one-handed ranged weapon that fires six shot before needing to be reloaded isn't very op from my view

remember this thread isn't for pointing out flaws in balance but finding ways to fix them

[Tiadoppler]

I've been thinking a lot about this sort of thing recently, because my campaign is about to run headlong into 21st century Earth.

My current firearms homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571296-PEACH-Modern-firearms-in-D-amp-D)
(This is mostly about modern firearms, but something may interest you in there.)

Some ideas for your case might be:

Maybe this revolver is rare or unique, and takes several minutes to reload the cylinder with loose black powder, wadding, lead balls. You get 6 shots at the start of combat, then it's a paperweight until you have some time to reload. Nobody else can use one, because there's only one.

Maybe this revolver is only a bit better than a hand crossbow, but doesn't benefit from the Crossbow feats.

Maybe ammunition is brutally expensive. 10gp per shot? 20gp per shot? It might well be to costly to use in every battle (at least at low levels). It's a good emergency weapon that can do lots of damage, but most of the time you'll be reluctant to use it.

Maybe it's not a revolver: it's a powerful, single-shot gun that does 1d10 or even 1d12 damage... once per battle. Then you need to take a minute to reload. That's pretty much a non-issue for combat balance. It's just a cool perk for a character. That might be semi-plausible for D&D-setting technology.



This is how I would stat up some primitive firearms:

Black Powder Musket, 12lbs, Loading(special), Simple Weapon

1d12 Piercing damage, Lead Ball and Black Powder (range 75'/300')
Special: The Black Powder Musket takes two Actions to reload.

Black Powder Rifle, 12lbs, Loading(special), Martial Weapon

1d12 Piercing damage, Lead Ball and Black Powder (range 150'/600')
Special: The Black Powder Rifle takes three Actions to reload.

Black Powder Pistol, 3 lbs, Loading(special), Simple Weapon

1d8 Piercing damage, Lead Ball and Black Powder (range 30'/120')
Special: The Black Powder Pistol takes two Actions to reload.

Black Powder Revolver, 3 lbs, Loading(special), Martial Weapon

1d6 Piercing damage, Lead Ball and Black Powder (range 30'/120')
Special: The Black Powder Revolver can hold up to six shots at a time. Reloading one shot takes two Actions.

[ZenBear]

I have guns in my setting, they're treated as re-skinned crossbows and I don't enforce the loading rule. The way I balance this with bows is that bows are finesse, meaning you can use DEX or STR like a melee weapon, whereas guns are DEX only. DEX is still therefore the superior ranged option, but STR actually has an option. I also don't mind stepping on Crossbow Expert's toes since shooting in melee and having a bonus action shot with a pistol is a solid enough boon by itself.

[Dr. Cliché]

Something you'll need to consider is what era of weapons you want to aim for.

Early firearms were lacking in power and range, took a long time to reload, and were highly inaccurate.

The main reason for their being favoured over bows was the ease with which people could be trained in their use - so that peasant farmers and such could quickly be recruited in times of need.

Put simply, these really weren't the weapons of the elite.


You'd probably need to be using relatively modern firearms for it to be worth adventurers using them over weapons like bows.

[Cealocanth]

I use the DMG system in my game with a little bit of a change. I reskinned renaissance era firearms as "junk" weapons (it's a post-apocalyptic game, so that implies they are handmade.) They do a little bit more damage than crossbows but have the loading trait, and they are firearms so they aren't exactly stealthy weapons. I still see players using them, and NPCs use them just the same. Modern and futuristic firearms do exist in my game, but they are classified as magic items. I drop them rarely, like magic items, and when they're in use it's a big deal. Their ammunition is also rare. This means that the more powerful aspects of the new weapons are looped into the same category as things like +1 crossbows, for a (somewhat) balanced approach. I have yet to drop a futuristic weapon in the game, so I have no idea what treating a laser gun like a legendary artifact will do.

It seems to work okay. There's been no moments where we all notice "the bard just did a lot more damage than he should be able to" or "the bard is spending his entire time reloading and not playing his class." It does mean that some classes like guns more than other classes, though. I have not checked the numbers on this system, but it seems to work okay.

[stewstew5]

Maybe this revolver is only a bit better than a hand crossbow, but doesn't benefit from the Crossbow feats
[/I]

This is my vision for it. As for the black powder weapons im more wanting a revolver reminiscent of the old west

[Tiadoppler]

This is my vision for it. As for the black powder weapons im more wanting a revolver reminiscent of the old west



Black Powder Revolver, 3 lbs, Loading(special), Martial Weapon
1d6 Piercing damage, Lead Ball and Black Powder (range 30'/120')
Special: The Black Powder Revolver can hold up to six shots at a time. Reloading one shot takes two Actions.

This item (based on a percussion cap and black powder, single action revolver) would be pretty perfectly suited to the 1820s to 1850s, and would certainly have existed in the old west.

A slightly more modern (1870s) alternative might be:


Single Action Revolver, 3 lbs, Loading (special), Martial One-Handed Weapon

1d6 Piercing damage, Revolver Ammunition (range 40'/160') Versatile (range 80'/320')
Special: The Single Action Revolver can hold up to six shots at a time. Reloading all six shots takes one Action.



It fires faster than a hand crossbow (without the feat), but slightly slower over time than a hand crossbow (with the feat). It has better range than the hand crossbow, especially when held in two hands. At the same time, it's most similar to a Shortbow that you can also hold in one hand for close range use.


In terms of game balance vs realism:
Bows and especially Crossbows had a much lower rate of fire in the real world than they do in D&D. Many of the issues regarding rate of fire are handwaved away in the name of game balance and fun.

1-4 shots every 6 seconds with a Heavy Crossbow (that requires a full pulley system be set up and used for every reload) is insane fantasy super-speed demigod reloading, not "a decently experienced crossbowman". But Game Balance and Fun! Slowing down Crossbow fire to once every 15-30 seconds (and Heavy Crossbow once per minute) wouldn't be fun for the players, so a Crossbow can somehow magically match the performance of a revolver.

That's good news for you, though! That means you can have a revolver, and it won't be much different from the super-speedy magical fairy dust crossbows in normal D&D.

[ImproperJustice]

A great balancer I have seen in past games I have played in is the volatility and vulnerability of blackpowder ammunition.
Especially in a world where firebolt or produce flame is a cantrip and fireballs may not be that uncommon.


Something in the neighborhood of a d10 damage per shots worth of powder works.

Gunslinger characters can ultimately learn some mid to high level resistance to having all their ammo cooked off prematurely, but it helps provide a justification for why firearms may not see widespread use in a fantasy setting.
Rather it is a dangerous experimental tool wielded by crackpots and those with specialized training.
Even prestidigitation can potentially combust gunpowder.

Then you also have to keep it dry, which can be another factor.

[stewstew5]

These are great

[Tiadoppler]

A great balancer I have seen in past games I have played in is the volatility and vulnerability of blackpowder ammunition.
Especially in a world where firebolt or produce flame is a cantrip and fireballs may not be that uncommon.


Something in the neighborhood of a d10 damage per shots worth of powder works.

That's definitely something to consider (although I prefer to ignore it in general, for the sake of fun, and not bogging down the game with calculations on what gets burned/not turning black powder guns into a "trap" to trick my players with). I would keep in mind that a shot's worth of black powder, exploding outside the barrel of a firearm (and not being contained in a specific explosive device) does not harness its destructive potential very efficiently.

A single shot from a firearm should be many times as powerful (in terms of damage and penetration) as the effect of a simple uncontrolled explosion involving the same amount of black powder. The purpose of a sealed firing chamber and barrel on a firearm (or a completely sealed grenade) is to concentrate the force of that explosion to maximize the destructive potential. Without that, it's considerably less harmful.

A reasonable amount of damage might be 1 damage per shots-worth of black powder. So if you're carrying 20 shots worth of black powder (in a non-fire-resistant bag), it would do 20 damage (DC 15? Dex save for 1/2): enough to kill a low level character outright, but not necessarily debilitating to a high-level character.


Edit: FYI, I've collected all the firearms I've put together for this thread in the Historical Firearms section of my current firearms homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571296-PEACH-Modern-firearms-in-D-amp-D), with a few minor updates and changes (and that's where I'll be keeping them up to date).

[Laserlight]

So if you're carrying 20 shots worth of black powder (in a non-fire-resistant bag)

It was fairly common to carry a dozen vials on a bandoleer so you had pre-measured units of powder handy. If you were doing that, though, you'd be doing powder, wadding, ball, wadding, primer, aim, fire, and reloading would realistically take a while. (Of course, reloading a heavy crossbow would take a while too, so don't let "realistically" deter you too much),

OP was talking about "clips", which in the context of six-shooters would be cheap sheet metal circles or half moons designed to hold several rounds of ammo so you can insert three or six bullets at a time instead of one.

[Tiadoppler]

It was fairly common to carry a dozen vials on a bandoleer so you had pre-measured units of powder handy. If you were doing that, though, you'd be doing powder, wadding, ball, wadding, primer, aim, fire, and reloading would realistically take a while. (Of course, reloading a heavy crossbow would take a while too, so don't let "realistically" deter you too much),

OP was talking about "clips", which in the context of six-shooters would be cheap sheet metal circles or half moons designed to hold several rounds of ammo so you can insert three or six bullets at a time instead of one.

Yep. Currently, the examples I'm recommending have a 1750s-1820s musket or pistol firing once every 18 seconds (1 action to fire, then 2 actions to reload. It's a rough estimate). A rifled musket takes longer (once every 24 seconds, to represent the difficulty of forcing the ball through the rifling, and as a balance against the increased range/accuracy). Early revolvers can fire quickly, but take 72 (12 x 6) seconds to reload fully.

Moon clips would be something that's only used for double-action revolvers (iirc). Early single-action revolvers had no easy way to expose the entire cylinder, so each chamber had to be loaded separately.

[Unoriginal]

There are guns in Warterdeep:Dragon Heist.

[Vogie]

There are guns in Warterdeep:Dragon Heist.

Well, kind of. There's NPCs with pistols in W:DH, but it isn't set up as a PC weapons. IIRC, they deal 1d10 damage and have a range of 30/90.

You can check my sig for my Deadeye class, which is based around single-shot rifles. MFOV also has decent Firearm rules.