[3.5] Mountebank Base Class - What's It Good For?

[Thurbane]

So, the Mountebank base class (Dragon Compendium p.42):
- HD: d6
- Skills: 6 points/level
- Proficiency: simple weapons, light armor
- Medium BAB
- Good Ref save

Their schtick is that they're a skillmonkey who's sold their soul to a lower planes being.

You get a few special abilities, none of which are particularly amazing:
- Beguiling stare (gaze attack that inflicts a new condition, beguiled, on the target on a failed save).
- You're difficult to get raised or resurrected.
- Trapfinding as a Rogue.
- Deceptive attack: a poor man's sneak attack that only works on beguiled opponents, or those that you feint. It scales at under half the rate of sneak attack, by the way.
- Infernal patron: you get a daily pool (similar to turn undead) which you can use to fuel some special powers, that you gain access to as you level up: mass beguile, alter self, pseudo non-detection, displacement, dimension door, confusion (single target), teleport (self only) and mislead.
- At 20th level you gain the half-fiend template, and are forced to retire that character as an NPC (which is idiotic, it should be no different than the capstone of Dread Necromancer or Dragon Disciple, IMHO).

The good(ish):
- Good skill points from a decent list.
- Access to alter self (4th), dimension door (10th) and teleport (16th) abilities (later than you'd like access to them, obviously).

The bad:
- Everything else.

So, what can you do with this hot mess? Aside from re-writing the thing to be usable, how do you make use of this class? 4 level dip for skill points and Alter Self?

Cheers - T

https://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/201210/27/77/c0155077_20305112.jpg

[Thurbane]

I especially enjoy this:

Role: Mountebanks are scouts, diplomats, and tricksters at their best when they support their allies in combat. Most mountebanks prefer to let others shoulder the risks while they collect the rewards.

...how exactly does one scout without Spot or Listen on your class list? :smallconfused:

[zfs]

Their Deceptive Attack works on things that would usually be immune to sneak attack, which is nice - except most of those things are immune to mind-affecting and hence can't be Beguiled in the first place.

Okay, so, things they can actually do - well, once they get Infernal Jaunt they can actually start using Deceptive Attack on all those types immune to mind-affecting because it applies to any attack you make immediately after you jaunt. Buy a cape of the Mountebank and your jaunt gains 100 ft to it. It's too bad the PrC Mountebank increases sneak attack and not just any sneak attack like ability, because two levels of that class would be pretty decent - get your Int bonus to Bluff checks (and with Beguile giving a -5 to sense motive checks, you're pretty good at bluffing) and +1d6 to Deceptive Attack. Alas, it doesn't work RAW, so being a Mountebank who Mountebanks while you Mountebank isn't all that great.

But 10 levels for 160 ft Dimension Door ~10 times a day (5 from 1/2 level, assuming at least a +5 from Cha bonus because Beguiling Stare runs off of Cha) that lets you act afterwards and adds +3d6 to your attack isn't really a good trade.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

It should have been an alternate version of or substitution levels for Warlock with the abilities they get as new invocations imo.

[zfs]

Actually, I'm not 100% correct if I'm right about Infernal Jaunt. The text says:


If the mountebank wears a cloak of the mountebank, the cloak adds 100 feet to her daily use of this ability in addition to its normal benefits.

Is "daily use" referring to Infernal Jaunt, or to the D-Door ability from Cloak of the Mountebank? Because that's a once per day ability. Infernal Jaunt lists no daily limit except for your total number of Infernal Patron uses.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Actually, I'm not 100% correct if I'm right about Infernal Jaunt. The text says:



Is "daily use" referring to Infernal Jaunt, or to the D-Door ability from Cloak of the Mountebank? Because that's a once per day ability. Infernal Jaunt lists no daily limit except for your total number of Infernal Patron uses.

Since, as you say, the Patron version isn’t 1/day, I think it’s talking about the Cloak. Turns it into a 1/day upgraded Infernal Jaunt

[Deophaun]

You forget that, upon reaching Level 20, the DM is supposed to hand the player a "I played a Mountebank to Level 20 and only got this lousy t-shirt" shirt.

I mean, that's something.

[zfs]

You forget that, upon reaching Level 20, the DM is supposed to hand the player a "I played a Mountebank to Level 20 and only got this lousy t-shirt" shirt.

I mean, that's something.

A good DM should have been planning a quest for the Mountebank to regain their independence, though.


Only a quest to break her pact with her demonic or infernal overlord can free the mountebank from this fate. The exact nature of this quest is left to the DM, but it usually requires a mountebank to defeat her patron or his most powerful minions, render him a great service, or trick him into releasing her from their contract.

Depending on who your patron is, that's a suitably epic quest for a ~19th level party. It doesn't really say that your party is allowed to help you but as a DM I'd see no reason not to include everybody.

[ericgrau]

Beguiling stare is complete garbage, but mass beguile is nice and comes online at only level 3. At minimum it helps the whole party hit.
On a non-caster alter self is very nice, displacement is nice, move action dimension door that allows a standard after is very nice.
Skill points are nice.



I'd play it like any melee character but with a few handy tricks. It doesn't look spectacular but it doesn't look sucky either. I don't see what the complaints are about. I don't really see them as scouts, diplomats, tricksters nor support though.

The implication that this is a dex character is a bit of a mess though. They lack the bonus damage to do it well, and it is a bit MAD with the cha dependency. The abilities don't work well with range so you're forced to blow a feat/dip on weapon finesse or heavy armor (plus a str focus). Weapon finesse looks like a possibility but often seems like a bad idea too. It does pump your dex skills but it leaves your damage lacking. And I don't see any reason to ever take it past level 10. This mess is making me see where the complaints are coming from.

I'd do fighter 1/Mountebank 10 / whatever X with full plate and a str focus. Str>cha>con. Dex 12 hopefully. Mass beguile if I can get 3+ targets, otherwise skip it. Dive into melee with alter self cast ahead of time when possible, possibly displacement instead or in addition to it round 1 if it looks dangerous. Starting CL 11 jaunt into melee. Alter self for AC, or possibly for flight in a higher optimization group that allows it. I'd take over trap finding so that the party doesn't need a rogue. I'd spend the remaining skill points on whatever seems handy. At least 5 ranks in balance, maybe some knowledge, spellcraft, diplomacy, etc.


Since, as you say, the Patron version isn’t 1/day, I think it’s talking about the Cloak. Turns it into a 1/day upgraded Infernal Jaunt
I think it's talking about feet per day not uses per day. As in 10 + 5 ft per Mountebank level per day, plus 100 feet more if you have the cloak.

[Mike Miller]

This class needs to be in one of the competitions. Iron chef perhaps

[RaiKirah]

This class needs to be in one of the competitions. Iron chef perhaps

Pretty sure in the Mountebank (PrC) Iron Chef someone did a Mountebank 10/Mountebank 10 build.


There's a chance that Infernal Jaunt can count for qualifying for Telflemmar Shadowlord, which would be a decent entry (though Deceptive Attack doesn't count as Sneak Attack so maybe not...)

[zfs]

There's a chance that Infernal Jaunt can count for qualifying for Telflemmar Shadowlord, which would be a decent entry (though Deceptive Attack doesn't count as Sneak Attack so maybe not...)

I was thinking that when I posted about Infernal Jaunt, but yeah, it would take DM adjudication because by RAW Deceptive Attack isn't Sneak Attack.

[Zaq]

It’s on the short list for the E6 Iron Chef. (Spoilers, I guess? Go ahead and start working on your phenomenal Mountebanks or something if you really want to.) It’s a pretty godawful class, but we might see a trick or two wrung out of it.

[Yogibear41]

I once tried to build a mountebank PC as a cohort, using a few third party feats that gave CHA to hp in place of con at even levels, a weapon finesse for cha with only 1 light melee weapon, using magic in the blood so at level 20 half fiend SLAs were usable more often, and using the variant half fiend from the web enhancement to make it better. I never really got anything that lived up to my standards of a playable character, and I'm not even a super optimizer.
At level 20 it would have been okay with stats boosts and SLAs, but was lack luster until then with only a few tricks.

[Thurbane]

Off the top of my head, home-brew fixes could include:

- Scaling Deceptive Attack at the same rate that a Rogue gets Sneak Attack.
- Possibly letting Deceptive Attack count as Sneak Attack for reqs and feats.
- Bringing some of the Infernal Patron abilities online sooner, to be more in-line with when casters get them.
- Adding the benefits of half-fiend incrementally as you level, similarly to how Dragon Disciple does it. Oh, and not making the character an NPC at 20.
- Expand the skill list (Spot and Listen at a bare minimum).

[zfs]

Off the top of my head, home-brew fixes could include:

- Scaling Deceptive Attack at the same rate that a Rogue gets Sneak Attack.
- Possibly letting Deceptive Attack count as Sneak Attack for reqs and feats.
- Bringing some of the Infernal Patron abilities online sooner, to be more in-line with when casters get them.
- Adding the benefits of half-fiend incrementally as you level, similarly to how Dragon Disciple does it. Oh, and not making the character an NPC at 20.
- Expand the skill list (Spot and Listen at a bare minimum).

I think the first two definitely merit strong consideration - give them rogue progression and access to Craven and suddenly you're dishing out 5d6 + 10 to constructs and undead once you get Infernal Jaunt, in line with what a rogue with golemstrike/wraithstrike would be doing or a Swift Hunter with Improved Skirmish.

I'd move Confusion to Level 9, Teleport to Level 12, Mislead to Level 14 and give them something more level appropriate for the Infernal Patron capstone. Maybe throw in something at Level 17 as well since it's a dead level. I'd think a strong 6th level spell for Level 17 and an intermediate level 7 spell for Level 20. At 17, things like Veil or Mass Suggestion seem to be in line with the class fluff and the other Infernal Patron abilities. Maybe Plane Shift or Insanity at Level 20?

Staggered progression of the Half-Fiend template seems like a good idea. I can easily see getting the SLA's at your 2nd HD (Darkness at Level 2, Desecrate at Level 4, etc.); I think most of those are level appropriate and the few that aren't are far from game-breaking. I'd probably put SR in the 12-15 range. Elemental resistances could be at every 5 levels, pick which one you want. Maybe every 4 levels since X Resist 10 isn't really a 20th level ability. Wings around level 10 or 11 seems in line with when Raptorans and Dragonborn get full access to their flight capabilities.

[Nifft]

Staggered progression of the Half-Fiend template seems like a good idea. I can easily see getting the SLA's at your 2nd HD (Darkness at Level 2, Desecrate at Level 4); I think most of those are level appropriate and the few that aren't are far from game-breaking. I'd probably put SR in the 12-15 range. Elemental resistances could be at every 5 levels, pick which one you want. Maybe every 4 levels since X Resist 10 isn't really a 20th level ability. Wings around level 10 or 11 seems in line with when Raptorans and Dragonborn get full access to their flight capabilities.

I really like the idea of a Half-Fiend progression built into a Warlock-ish class.

Give it d8 HD / 8 skill points per HD / full BAB, because it's an Outsider transformational class.

[zfs]

I really like the idea of a Half-Fiend progression built into a Warlock-ish class.

Give it d8 HD / 8 skill points per HD / full BAB, because it's an Outsider transformational class.

The remainder of the template that needs to be spaced out is:

- Ability Boosts: +2 Cha, +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Int, +2 Con. Split the +4's into two +2's and that's 8 boosts, so getting them at odd or even levels starting at, say, Level 4 or 5 would seem to work.
- 60 ft. Darkvision: This can be attained low-level, even Level 1, really.
- Weapons count as magic for breaking DR: Monk gets this at Level 4, so anywhere from Level 5 to Level 7 seems appropriate.
- Natural Armor Bonus +1: This is a pretty low level ability. I'd give it in the 3-6 range.
- Smite Good 1/day: Paladin gets their 1st smite at level one, and Smite Good doesn't even give an attack bonus, just a +HD damage bonus. Level 1 or Level 2 seems fine.
- Two Claws and One Bite: On a Medium creature that's two 1d4 claws and one 1d6 bite. Level 4, maybe?
Poison Immunity: Druids get this at Level 9. As with most of the other options, I think giving it one or two levels late is the way to go, so Level 10 or Level 11.
- Damage Reduction 5/magic (improves to 10/magic at 12 HD): This is one where I might change the template a bit - I think Level 12 is a bit too early for DR 10. I guess the comparison would be to Stoneskin, which gives a better form of DR 10 but has shorter duration and requires using a spell slot. With that in mind, Level 12 isn't too bad, but playing it by ear I think Level 14 seems like a better choice. Getting the DR/5 at half that, Level 7, also doesn't seem out of line. I'll admit this is the one I'm shakiest about - 7th level is when Barbarian gets DR 1/-. How much better is 4 more points of DR that are pretty easily broken by a lot of things?

I need to check to be sure, but I think along with the other suggested fixes this would additionally have the benefit of removing all dead levels.

[weckar]

At least here's one class that does not need an epic progression =p

[Dr_Dinosaur]

At least here's one class that does not need an epic progression =p

The epic progression is as a devil lol

[Thurbane]

Hmm, I might work up a table for a version of Mountebank incorporating the changes we've discussed.

I think it could be a viable base class with a few tweaks. Maybe high(ish) tier 4?

[zfs]

Hmm, I might work up a table for a version of Mountebank incorporating the changes we've discussed.

I think it could be a viable base class with a few tweaks. Maybe high(ish) tier 4?

If you give them the full Outsider chassis as well, I'd even say low Tier 3. The current top of Tier 4 in the new re-tiering is Lurk - I think I'd definitely play the buffed up Mountebank over a Lurk. SLA's from Half-Fiend being mostly 1/day puts a crimp in their versatility but staggering the other benefits of the template gives them some really nice defensive buffs in the meaty mid-level range.

[daremetoidareyo]

Question, when you are mass beguiled, can you dodge a caber?

[Thurbane]

Question, when you are mass beguiled, can you dodge a caber?

Hmm, let's see:


A beguiled character loses his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. He also suffers a -2 penalty on all Will saves and a -5 penalty on all Sense Motive checks.


Caber: A caber is a heavy pole that you can throw at one or more targets grouped closely together. To throw a caber, you must target a 10-toot-square area and hit AC 15. Success means that everyone in the target area must make a Reflex save (DC = your attack roll) or move 5 feet backward. If a creature or object in the target area is incapable of movement, it takes 2d6 points of damage. The caber is normally used for breaking up military formations.

I don't think being beguiled would have any effect on dodging a caber...

[ericgrau]

I was looking at how long it takes to get to the level 10 sweetness and that big gap between level 4 and 10. So then I started looking more at level 4 and I think we're missing something significant: Everyone is trying to give them better sneak attack progression because as-is it's hard to combo mass beguile with the class' low bonus damage. But what about a mountebank in a party? Suddenly any other rogue can full attack sneak attack the whole time. For that matter, since this is flat-footed and not flanking, the mountebank can rapid shot his bonus damage too. So while he gets less bonus damage per hit, he can get more hits. At least at low level. Then the other rogue gets even more on top of that. So now I'm thinking rather than being a substitute rogue, the best application is a mountebank archer teamed up with a rogue. Even if he's a TWF rogue he can TWF throwing weapons such javelin+dart. The TWF rules pegs javelin as one handed and dart as light for TWF purposes. This way he can get 2 sneak attacks even before closing in on a foe. Or he can full attack in melee even without a flanking buddy. This dramatically increases the damage from beguiling stare. Immune foes are still a bummer, but they're probably immune to sneak attack too. This could also work with a melee mountebank. He gets less attacks but he still teams up well and he has alter self and/or displacement for defense.

A 4 level dip might be a good option in general. It lacks uses per day but another cha focused build might get enough uses via cha.

A cha focused mountebank could also make a great team mate or cohort for an enchanter or other will save caster. Beguiling stare + mind fog round 1, charm monster round 2+, make lots of friends to help against immune foes in other fights. And it's not just another -2. The beguiling stare increases the chance that the mind fog will land and vis versa. There's also a higher chance that someone will fail a save against at least one or the other since they have to make two rolls. Plus it helps the enchanter out before he can get mind fog. At all levels the enchanter can focus his charms on those that failed against the mass beguile. It's also a good indication of who probably has a low will save, because many dumb-looking monsters will surprise you on how high their will save is. Since the cohort is already cha focused, he can take 4 levels in mountebank and make his remaining levels for something else to do during rounds 2-3+. Though he might mass beguile one more time round 2. He can intentionally include allies in the area too, because unless the enemy (rarely) has sneak attack or something that targets will saves, it's not a huge loss to hit an ally. Alter self is also good for squishy cohorts.

Are there other effects that reduce will saves upon a failed will save? Preferably as a swift action and/or an AoE?

[daremetoidareyo]

planar touchstone oxyrhyncus:


Base Ability: Choose a weapon with which you are profi cient. If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack (i.e., flat-footed) with your chosen weapon, you can make an additional free attack at your base attack bonus –5. You can make this extra attack during any round that you can make multiple attacks, but only with your chosen weapon type. This means that if you are of a high enough level to make additional attacks (you have at least a +6 or higher base attack bonus), you could make two additional attacks at your base attack bonus –5.

[jedipilot24]

At 20th level you gain the half-fiend template, and are forced to retire that character as an NPC (which is idiotic, it should be no different than the capstone of Dread Necromancer or Dragon Disciple, IMHO)

Well the solution to that is obvious: simply don't take the final level of the class. Dip some other class at some point, like say the Mountebank prestige class from Complete Scoundrel. Just one level gives you "Tongue of the Devil" which, aside from being thematically named, let's you add Int to your Bluff. Heck, since Mountebank 19 is a dead level, you might as well make it a 2 level dip. That will get you 1d6 sneak attack as well, which you can use against begulied targets. This also qualifies you for Craven and other feats that require sneak attack.