Functional Theoretical Optimization Challenge

[Promethean]

I've looked through thousands of different threads about the near infinite mount of supplemental material added to 3.5, there are hundred of sorted threads with mentions and external links to hundreds again more published material for 3.5e. I've never seen most of it actually Used however.

For example: there are an uncountable number of supplements with extremely cool takes of weapon and armor improvement outside of just attaching spells to them, like High tiered masterworks from dragonlance, Artisan Craftsman qualities from dragon mag #358, weapon/armor modifications and accessories(from various books including underdark, the "races of" series, the "Complete X" series, dragon/dungeon mag, and dungeonscape), weapon/armor templates in dungeon masters guide, weapon/armor crystals in Magic item compendium, and the Many assorted special materials across various books. I've not seen many threads about forging cool weapons that involve anything more than what "magic item enhancements" they want.

Similar things can be said for things like alchemy/potions/herbalism/quasi-magical-alchemical-items, magic classes outside the "fill spell slots with X instant win button" variety, or a lot of really cool creature templates/salient abilities(and I don't mean the deities-and-demigods kind). A massive number of supplement, no one talks about them, everyone sticks to the same core builds, and a lot of optimization/theoretical optimization taps into a lot of loops in order to reach infinite numbers rather than get creative.

VVVVVVVV

TL;DR/the point

How about a contest thread? Everything goes, every supplement, every 3rd party, every build you can think of, and the winners are the most creative ones that the most people like rather than the most powerful.

Only 2 rules:

-No loops. 1d2 crusader only gets the maximum damage for the dice it roles, no wishing for infinite wishes even indirectly, cancer mage is only immune to cosmetic side effects of boiling rage, the sarrukh's "manipulate form" ability is subject to magic item creation rules, etc. Just in general assume that if you try to break the universe, "divine intervention" from the gods happens and instead of an infinite loop a slightly more sensible outcome occurs.

-No homebrew. Honestly you can homebrew Anything, you could makes up something while typing and it's just as legitimately "homebrew" as something a highly experienced DM spent weeks designing and play-testing. I have nothing against homebrew(I do it vigorously to make things make more sense as a DM), but I wouldn't in good conscience use it to create a build.

(I ask the above to hear opinions on if anyone would be interested in such a thread, not to make THIS that thread)

[DeTess]

Personally, what attracts me most to optimization competitions like Iron Chef isn't the near infinite possibilities, but the limitations of doing something good with a limited (ans often bad) ingredient.

The other risk you're running if you don't impose limits is that judging objectively becomes impossible, as you can't compare apples and oranges.

If you do want to run something like this, I suggest still putting in some kind of limitation. This could be a specific prc that needs to be used, or a descriptive phrase, or a particular scenario.

[Cosi]

I don't really see a reason to call something like this a "contest" rather than a "showcase". I'm sure there are a plenty of people who have a pet build they'd polish up and post if you gave them a good opportunity to do so.

[Mike Miller]

I second the "needs a limitation" factor and think a showcase is better. TO can go all over the place and I find them interesting to read, but they aren't comparable in many cases.

[jdizzlean]

3rd the showcase vote, plus, when you cast the net to broad, you're going to end up w/ very few if any judges that can access all the material available. finding judges is hard enough as it is w/o throwing that into the mix as well.


i'd suggest doing each round as a focus on 1 of those extra sources, like a round that only uses dragon material for example. etc etc

[ExLibrisMortis]

Third-party content can be nothing but homebrew compiled into a PDF with a cover. I would use a whitelist for third-party content, if you're going to allow it at all.

Other than that, TO doesn't lend itself well to competition, because it is inherently unlimited. Even within the rules you mention, fusion + astral seed + barghest allows me to get NI hit dice and all printed monster abilities.

[unseenmage]

Could limit it by judging criteria.
The more/less campaign settings/publishers used the higher/lower the score?

[Malphegor]

One way to do it I suppose would be to see how powerful you can get with the fewest amount of faff to actually play- the least amount of stuff to look up or the least amount of calculations needed for a desired result.

Infinite cosmic power... But you still want to actually have fun and play the game once you've researched your ultimate win button.

[Promethean]

I guess "contest" is the wrong direction. Having a showcase sounds fun, you'd still get too see as many interesting builds as possible as well.


Third-party content can be nothing but homebrew compiled into a PDF with a cover. I would use a whitelist for third-party content, if you're going to allow it at all.

Other than that, TO doesn't lend itself well to competition, because it is inherently unlimited. Even within the rules you mention, fusion + astral seed + barghest allows me to get NI hit dice and all printed monster abilities.

:smallconfused: Wouldn't that fall under "Infinite Loop"?

I.E, the sensible thing would be to say you can only fuse with either 1 creature or only up to a number of creatures that have a total number of hit dice less then or equal to your natural character hit dice.(with the new fusion+astral seed character/monster2 combo overwriting the old fusion+astral seed character/monster2 combo)

[ExLibrisMortis]

:smallconfused: Wouldn't that fall under "Infinite Loop"?
Depends. There are only so many printed monsters, and once you'd have absorbed them all, you wouldn't fuse with anything new, so it's not infinite (nor a loop). Getting NI hit dice does fall under "infinite", I suppose, though it's not a loop, and I could always just get ten thousand HD and call it a day. If you use nested thought bottles, you can go very far and still not be infinite technically, as with Khepri, the Living Scourge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19299172&postcount=59) (also known as the Hive Queen).

My point isn't so much that fusion + astral seed breaks the competition using just some purchased spellcasting services (takes one 15th-level shaper and under 10 000 gp). The point is that TO doesn't compete well. Interesting new TO is about doing things that haven't been done before, not about running a Same Game Test or a battle royale, and from the perspective of newness, any new TO is as good as any other, because it's all new.


I.E, the sensible thing would be to say you can only fuse with either 1 creature or only up to a number of creatures that have a total number of hit dice less then or equal to your natural character hit dice.(with the new fusion+astral seed character/monster2 combo overwriting the old fusion+astral seed character/monster2 combo)
Then it wouldn't be a TO challenge, just high-PO. Which I think is what you're going for: a very high PO challenge, where fusions are expected, but not so common that people can say "plus all the abilities in MMV".