How to avoid a TPK next session

[Vessyra]

So, um, my campaign has gone completely off the rails. After a series of events and poor decisions, the level 14 party charged into an ancient red dragon king's lair, intent on assassination. Fortunately, to events that they had unknowingly set in motion, the red dragon wasn't home, just his servants and family. So the party murdered most of his minions, stole his horde, then, in an act that changed alignments, kidnapped his half-dragon child and the elven mother/wife.

Soon, the party is going to have an angry ancient red dragon bringing everything that he has to bear on them. And this dragon... he has a lot. He is a king with several wizards and a cleric, along with a small army. I'm really not sure how the party can survive his wrath.

Should I pull a deus ex machina, saying that all of his wizards were assassinated by one of the King's other enemies, preventing scrying? Or should I play the dragon king like his shock has made him foolish, making him go in alone and forget that he has access to resurrection, should the party use their hostages? Or should I let the party pay for their decisions, and bring the full might and an ancient red to bear, no holds barred?

I'm fairly new to DMing, help and opinions would be appreciated please.

[Unoriginal]

Or should I let the party pay for their decisions, and bring the full might and an ancient red to bear, no holds barred?

This one. They kicked the bee nest, they get the bees.

[hymer]

Send the angry dad to the rescue in all his fiery fury. If the PCs somehow manage to wriggle out of it, fine. If not, well, you have the rest of the evening to make new characters.

Alternatively, have someone surreptitiously resurrect them a while later. They will lose their equipment, but they get to have another go at it.

[Vessyra]

Oh, that's a good one. I was worried that resurrection would seem like a deus ex, but since they would lose all of their equipment, it's a fair price to pay. It also works well, as one member of the party, a fighter/cleric, is currently off on a side quest with a hired NPC wizard, so he could call in a higher-level church member, then 'port in and resurrect them. Thanks!

Plus, there's a chance they'll wriggle out. One character has teleport, but I don't know if he has it prepared; I'll have to wait and see.

[hymer]

You should note down the equipment the PCs lose. They are very likely to have another go at it at some point, and what the dragon doesn't hand out to servants or trade away should still be in the hoard.

[LuccMa]

Ancient Dragons aren't dumb. But this one has a goal. Two goals in fact.

First: Save his child and the mother.
Second: Revenge.

You have to decide which one is more important to the Dragon - if its the saving part, then the characters actually have a pretty damn good bargaining chip they can use to stay alive.
But besides that: They messed with an ancient, so they get an ancient and his army.

[Corran]

One of the dragon's advisors convinced the dragon that diplomacy is the best way to get his family back alive. So that advisor is sent to ''bargain'' with the PC's. He tells them all the things you would like to tell them OOC. That it is easy for them to be tracked and even easier for them to be killed. He offers the PC's the chance to free the hostages wife and child (probably the treasure too), and assures them that if they do so now, they will be forgiven (whether that's true or false is up to you; for example, it would make a lot of sense to be an attack planned just after the PC's let the hostages go, assuming they do so, but you could also spare them this because of reasons not specified -for example, the dragon has more important matters to attend to, you know, the kind of matters that might tie to 20 level PC's instead of 14th level ones). This (or something along these lines) is you giving them a second chance without taking away the option for them to mess up again. Edit: Have the NPC lay some hard facts on the PC's without being antagonistic to them, if you want to increase the chances of your players making the ''right'' choice. Though you obviously know your players better....

ps: If they refuse, well, they probably very much deserve the TPK heading their way. If you want to keep things going for a little more, also to have some fun while doing so, try to have them turn on each other. Have the NPC tell them that whoever of them returns mother and child alive to the dragon, not only gets to live, but will also be rewarded with (enter things your PC's are generally after; position of power in the dragon's army, magic loot, etc). This might work if you get the PC's scared enough of the prospect of dying along the road. Extra points if you have them use means to tell that the negotiator is actually telling the truth (give them a scroll of zone of truth for example). And you know what, throwing all the lore about red dragons out of the window, have the negotiator actually be the red dragon in disguise. You want a super cheesy twist? The elf woman and the child are not even the dragon's family! The dragon planned all of this because he wanted to mess with the PC's (maybe for the purpose of recruiting -some/one of- them, or maybe because he was just bored; after all, the campaign is derailed already and you are trying to salvage the PC's from a TPK, so keeping things going in a fun way without having everything to make sense might just be the way to go about it).

[StoicLeaf]

Dragons are poorly contested apex predators for a reason. They picked this fight, give them hell!

[Manyasone]

Agreed. Go John Wick in them... An Ancient red probably considers his kid/wife also part of his belongings, so...

[Louro]

Why are you all assuming the dragon cares about his child?
It's not like he's planning to die anytime soon, so losing his heir doesn't seem like a big deal. It's not like someone had stolen a coin from his vault!

And even if he cares he won't let that to be seen as a weakness (look at medieval Japanese shoguns).

His stupid son let himself being captured. King will use that to push his political agenda, like declaring war or embargoes upon already considered targets.

[Darkstar952]

Why are you all assuming the dragon cares about his child?
It's not like he's planning to die anytime soon, so losing his heir doesn't seem like a big deal. It's not like someone had stolen a coin from his vault!

And even if he cares he won't let that to be seen as a weakness (look at medieval Japanese shoguns).

His stupid son let himself being captured. King will use that to push his political agenda, like declaring war or embargoes upon already considered targets.

Except the party stole his horde and the wife & child, there is no way of spinning that to not be a clear sign of weakness. That has to be met with a show of force and dominance, though I agree that it doesn't need to be against the group directly, the dragon could instead burn everything they love or care about.

This then puts the group in a tough position, they have hostages the dragon possibly doesn't care about and they are forced to watch the Dragon destroy everything around them.

[SMac8988]

So, um, my campaign has gone completely off the rails. After a series of events and poor decisions, the level 14 party charged into an ancient red dragon king's lair, intent on assassination. Fortunately, to events that they had unknowingly set in motion, the red dragon wasn't home, just his servants and family. So the party murdered most of his minions, stole his horde, then, in an act that changed alignments, kidnapped his half-dragon child and the elven mother/wife.

Soon, the party is going to have an angry ancient red dragon bringing everything that he has to bear on them. And this dragon... he has a lot. He is a king with several wizards and a cleric, along with a small army. I'm really not sure how the party can survive his wrath.

Should I pull a deus ex machina, saying that all of his wizards were assassinated by one of the King's other enemies, preventing scrying? Or should I play the dragon king like his shock has made him foolish, making him go in alone and forget that he has access to resurrection, should the party use their hostages? Or should I let the party pay for their decisions, and bring the full might and an ancient red to bear, no holds barred?

I'm fairly new to DMing, help and opinions would be appreciated please.


If you interested in turning it into a longer plot point. Maybe run the dragon as the big good, and make the party into the big bad of the story. Now the dragon has sent his men to get his family back, and the party has a location they can hold up in and turn into a fortress. Give them the chance to be the villains for a bit, and eventually let them hire minons and gather followers. Its your call as the DM how the story goes. My view, dragons live for basically as long as they can; my games they don't have like a max age, true he lost a wife and child, but would he be foolish enough to change head on in and risk himself? Perhaps this is more an inconveniences for him and this has pissed him off, but not enough to risk all he has.

[Unoriginal]

Also, the half-dragon and the elf probably are immune or at least resistant to fire. The dragon could exploit that.

[Louro]

Except the party stole his horde and the wife & child, there is no way of spinning that to not be a clear sign of weakness.
Oh! OOOH! Sorry, missed that.
Party is pretty much dead.

King either chases them directly or burn everything until party is delivered to him ALIVE (with all the treasure they stole of course).

[Keravath]

I think the players need to suffer the consequences of the character decisions.

I've seen this type of thing happen in two kinds of campaigns

-where the characters have encountered risky situations but have always lived. The DM can be reluctant to kill off characters and if the players realize this they sometimes start taking more extreme actions to make the game more "exciting" since they figure that they can get away with it since they always have in the past. If the chance of death for a PC is real through out the campaign then players tend to take that into account when playing their characters and their actions will usually have a bit of caution about them. (Running into an ancient red dragon den, killing his followers, stealing his horde ... either the players are unintelligent and unable to weigh consequences ... they have no clue about the power of an ancient dragon and believe they can defeat it and its army of followers ... or the players believe the DM is reluctant to kill their characters so some way out will appear so they can survive the situation.

- the players are getting a bit bored with the campaign/plot line so they create the excitement by taking some large risks ... I think this can be one of the reasons why campaigns don't usually make it to level 20. Characters become more powerful and creating fun, challenging, balanced encounters that fit into the world and plot lines becomes more challenging. D&D in the past has had this issue where at high levels it can become stomp or be stomped ... 5e seems to suffer less from this but some of the higher level spells can still be game changers.

[ad_hoc]

If the party can't lose then there is no victory.

At some point you need to allow the game to happen for player's choices to matter.

Personally I do it at level 5. In levels 1-4 I'm happy to wiggle a bit and give some pointers from on high about what might about to happen. This is because the group is new together, the characters are new to the players, and some of them may not have their key abilities yet.

After level 5 though? Whatever happens happens.

[ImproperJustice]

Worthwhile Question:

Is it possible they want a TPK?
Some groups thrive in getting to go out in a blaze of glory.
If you make it suitably exciting, (surrounded on all sides but they are wiping out hordes of mooks, until overwhelming force arrives and they still get to keep plugging away a round or two past expectations, before finally falling and maybe even finishing a powerful foe with their last breath).

Then give them a good epilogue / eulogy.

But again, it depends on your players. Some thrive on sucess, some just want to let off steam, some enjoy the challenge of failure. You just have to discover what they like.

[tieren]

I'd make it a chase. Perhaps there is another powerful entity that can offer protection (for most of the hoard) but only if the party can make it to them before being caught by the dragon/his minions.

Have the dragon king not commit himself immediately, like a good general he would send troops first. Scouts can harass the party, an expeditionary force may be sent to kill them, if that fails a larger force, and finally the dragon decides to handle it personally. Meanwhile the party is hiding and finding ways to obscure scrying or mislead the pursuers while making the best time they can...

Maybe fleeing through the underdark would be a good way to avoid an ancient red dragon, etc...

[Laserlight]

I'm fairly new to DMing, help and opinions would be appreciated please.


Fortunately dragons, and red dragons in particular, are noted for their forgiving nature and aversion to violence...

Actions have consequences. I would certainly not have the dragon's wizards assassinated. The only way I would soften the impending doom is to have someone tell them "You irritated a dragon and haven't begged forgiveness, so a lot of pain is about to land on you and we don't want any of it splashing on us. You have five minutes to get out of town. Don't ever come back. Oh, and Nearby City will shoot you on sight."

[MilkmanDanimal]

If the dragon has that much political power, it's easy to rationalize they're going to be banned from every city just because as a head of state, this would very possibly be considered an act of war, and anybody who takes them in could be considered responsible. They'll have nowhere to hide. Also, with those kinds of resources, you should look at your characters' backstories, and have the dragon go after their loved ones as well.

Don't kill the party right away. Make them suffer for a few sessions.

[tieren]

Maybe have them flee to the elemental plane of water? Could be an entry into a whole nother level of planar adventuring if they can't go home again.

[LordNibbler]

The dragon should take out half or more of the party but leave at least one PC (preferably a bard if there is one) to tell the tale of what happens when you mess with a dragon.
This way it’s not a TPK but some lessons will be learned.

[Temperjoke]

Oh, that's a good one. I was worried that resurrection would seem like a deus ex, but since they would lose all of their equipment, it's a fair price to pay. It also works well, as one member of the party, a fighter/cleric, is currently off on a side quest with a hired NPC wizard, so he could call in a higher-level church member, then 'port in and resurrect them. Thanks!

Plus, there's a chance they'll wriggle out. One character has teleport, but I don't know if he has it prepared; I'll have to wait and see.

Was this player the voice of restraint and reason in the party? Things seem to have escalated quickly without him. As for the main group, the dragon has every reason to bring his full personal power to bear against the party. The only potential saving fact is they might have pissed the dragon off enough to leave his entourage behind in his rage. If they escape, even if they leave the horde and hostages behind, the dragon would still probably pursue them, using the resources at his disposal. And probably use their deaths as warnings to anyone else who might think to pull something like this.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's not much mention in this thread about the fact that this is an ANCIENT RED DRAGON.

We are food. We are tools. That wife was a resource and that child was a contingency plan. The only thing this dragon should care about is himself, and everything else are just various forms of value and meat.

This dragon won't care too much about the woman and child. He WILL care about some worms killing off his minions, stealing his treasure, and defiling his home.

They WILL die. And it will be glorious.

----------------------------------------------

This resulted in an alignment change, so it's highly likely that they were warned about their actions beforehand. They made their bed, now it's time to sleep in it.

If the dragon has the ability to, it should be doing everything it can to murder these thieves and everyone they've ever met. If they're in a town, the town burns. This might cause enough mayhem for the players to escape, but only if the Dragon feels he's destroyed the town enough. Perhaps someone warns them of what's going to happen, so the players know to hide rather than fight.

Alternatively, this IS an Ancient Red Dragon. It's been here for a while. Perhaps an ancient dragonslayer or sage is awakened from a Sepulcher spell and has returned to stop the dragon that was foretold to destroy the local lands.

Lastly, maybe the dragon has a rival, something bigger and nastier that has been trying to take over this ground. Red Dragons are known for being egotistical ass holes. Now that the dragon has no followers and is out of his lair, distracted by a group of stupid adventurers, this is a perfect time to attack. This might be something a green dragon would attempt, who are known for being slimy plotters. Maybe this was part of the Green's plan all along (like maybe several of the NPCs or clues that brought the heroes here were planted by this Green).

If there is no big reason the dragon can't kill the players and everything around them, then that's exactly what needs to happen.

[GloatingSwine]

Maybe have them flee to the elemental plane of water? Could be an entry into a whole nother level of planar adventuring if they can't go home again.

An extended holiday in the outer planes is probably their only reasonable option at this point.

Because it seems unlikely that there is going to be a diplomatic way out of this after the party have already attacked.

A few sessions of running scared, a "safe" way out to exotic climes elsewhere (it's about Ravenloft time isn't it?), then maybe come back when things have settled down.

[Temperjoke]

An extended holiday in the outer planes is probably their only reasonable option at this point.

Because it seems unlikely that there is going to be a diplomatic way out of this after the party have already attacked.

A few sessions of running scared, a "safe" way out to exotic climes elsewhere (it's about Ravenloft time isn't it?), then maybe come back when things have settled down.

I am now picture an ancient red dragon rampaging in Ravenloft in pursuit of the adventurers. What would Strahd do in this situation?

[Man_Over_Game]

I am now picture an ancient red dragon rampaging in Ravenloft in pursuit of the adventurers. What would Strahd do in this situation?

Alternatively, Sigil, the City of Doors, is a place where gods aren't allowed, and grand schemes by them can't take place. An Ancient Red Dragon might think himself a god, and is nearly on that level, so it might be considered a place where the dragon either can't go, or can't pursue the players. It itself is a very expansive, robust, and dangerous world, perfect for starting a new chapter of a campaign.

[GloatingSwine]

So, um, my campaign has gone completely off the rails. After a series of events and poor decisions, the level 14 party charged into an ancient red dragon king's lair, intent on assassination. Fortunately, to events that they had unknowingly set in motion, the red dragon wasn't home, just his servants and family.


Okay, with a little more thought, let's unpack this as a teachable moment in GMing.

The party goes to assassinate a target, and the target is not there.

Why was the target not there?

Because you decided he wasn't.

You are the GM and the arbiter of reality. The dragon is at home if you decide he is at home, and he is away if you decide he is away. I do not care if you have some kind of prewritten decision tree for whether the dragon is at home, you are not writing a Neverwinter Nights module, you are not bound by prewritten information.

The party had no hope of success in this situation because you decided they failed before they even started. You apparently did this without allowing them to find out about it. (If you want players to figure something out you need at least three different clues that tell them what it is, because they'll likely miss or not think to look of at least two of them).


So, this is why you need to avoid the TPK. The players are in this situation because you put them there. No matter what decisions they made, you set them up to fail..

[Man_Over_Game]

Okay, with a little more thought, let's unpack this as a teachable moment in GMing.

The party goes to assassinate a target, and the target is not there.

Why was the target not there?

Because you decided he wasn't.

You are the GM and the arbiter of reality. The dragon is at home if you decide he is at home, and he is away if you decide he is away. I do not care if you have some kind of prewritten decision tree for whether the dragon is at home, you are not writing a Neverwinter Nights module, you are not bound by prewritten information.

The party had no hope of success in this situation because you decided they failed before they even started. You apparently did this without allowing them to find out about it. (If you want players to figure something out you need at least three different clues that tell them what it is, because they'll likely miss or not think to look of at least two of them).


So, this is why you need to avoid the TPK. The players are in this situation because you put them there. No matter what decisions they made, you set them up to fail..

It's not a DM's job to coddle you. He lays out the situation, but whether the players fail is up to them. It's not unrealistic for a dragon to leave its lair, and it's not fair to blame the DM because they weren't bright enough to think about their actions.

These players weren't trapped. They went after the thing that now has every right to kill them. If you try to proactively kill something and you fail, you deserve everything that happens to you.

If you're on some sky city, and you decide not to prepare Feather Fall, is the DM supposed to just land the city on a giant hill so you don't trip and fall?

[GloatingSwine]

It's not a DM's job to coddle you. He lays out the situation, but whether the players fail is up to them. It's not unrealistic for a dragon to leave its lair, and it's not fair to blame the DM because they weren't bright enough to think about their actions.

It's not unrealistic for a dragon to leave it's lair.

It's not unreasonable for the players to be able to find out whether the dragon is in it's lair or not. And if the dragon is not going to be in its lair when the players are specifically intending to find it there, then that information should be quite readily available.

Especially if the dragon is also the king of a nation and his presence or otherwise in his home is probably public knowledge because kings tend to announce that sort of thing by flying flags and stuff (and when a red dragon leaves it's pretty bloody obvious, he's the size of an airliner).



These players weren't trapped. They went after the thing that now has every right to kill them. If you try to proactively kill something and you fail, you deserve everything that happens to you.


If the players try and proactively do something, but the GM has decided they failed before they started, then that's not a matter of "deserving". There was no way for the players to succeed at this, their failure was totally out of their hands because of a decision that was made that they had no way of knowing (and the OP even says that it was information hidden from them).

[dmteeter]

Rain down hell upon them. Burn every village, town, or city they try to escape to. Hell raise the countryside as well. Make sure no one will help them or give them shelter.

They stole the hoard of an ANCIENT RED DRAGON any way you try to spin that it was a terrible decision. If you have made it obvious how powerful this enemy is then their deaths are the only logical result.

Red dragons are not a forgiving lot...

[Darkstar952]

If the players try and proactively do something, but the GM has decided they failed before they started, then that's not a matter of "deserving". There was no way for the players to succeed at this, their failure was totally out of their hands because of a decision that was made that they had no way of knowing (and the OP even says that it was information hidden from them).

This seems totally ass backwards, the players didn't immediately fail they merely had a complication. So what if the target wasn't in its lair, they still have choices, they can gather information, set a trap, leave information to lure the dragon out into a trap on their terms. Instead the players decided to just forget the task at hand, kill everything, steal its hoard and kidnap the wife & child.

The DM is not to blame here, this is entirely on the heads of the players.

[tchntm43]

Level 14 is "enough" as far as having gotten to play these characters. I don't think the DM should feel a need to protect them from an early demise since that time passed long ago.

That said, there are alternative lessons the DM could employ if desired. Are there NPCs the party values? Like family members? It would be entirely within a Red Dragon's character to seek out and murder those NPCs so that the party members would have to suffer knowing that those NPCs died because of their own actions. Remember that Red Dragons are both extremely intelligent and utterly evil.

[Louro]

Well, given that the Ancient Dragon is also the King, maybe he won't be willing to burn his own cities. But he'll put a big effort into making sure that whoever helps the party is gonna regret it, and everyone will know about it.

He'll track his coins and stuff, and send the SEOS (special elite operations squad) after the party.
Being the King, if he has to track them personally, his subjects might think their Kingdom isn't that great is the King himself has to track down some thieves: "Doesn't have him competent personal to deal with such mundane things?"

[Man_Over_Game]

Well, given that the Ancient Dragon is also the King, maybe he won't be willing to burn his own cities. But he'll put a big effort into making sure that whoever helps the party is gonna regret it, and everyone will know about it.

He'll track his coins and stuff, and send the SEOS (special elite operations squad) after the party.
Being the King, if he has to track them personally, his subjects might think their Kingdom isn't that great is the King himself has to track down some thieves: "Doesn't have him competent personal to deal with such mundane things?"

Red dragons are the most selfish, most angry of the dragons. A Blue might use logic. A Green might trick you into ruining your own life to spite you. A Red Dragon will burn you and everything within 20 miles of you.

I wouldn't be surprised if the local kingdom gave him the crown just in the hopes that he doesn't eat them. Assuming the DM is maintaining how the standard chromatic dragons interact, I sincerely doubt the dragon has any respect for the kingdom, other than the fact that it's "his".

It's his; he'll do what he likes with it.

[Louro]

Red dragons are the most selfish... A Red Dragon will burn you and everything within 20 miles of you.

He will then be burning his own kingdom. Not most wise action, if he is that sort of King whose political agenda is to take over neighbor Kingdoms, and them the next ones.

That would be a more interesting Ancient Dragon that one who's just sitting on his throne.

[MaxWilson]

Should I pull a deus ex machina, saying that all of his wizards were assassinated by one of the King's other enemies, preventing scrying? Or should I play the dragon king like his shock has made him foolish, making him go in alone and forget that he has access to resurrection, should the party use their hostages? Or should I let the party pay for their decisions, and bring the full might and an ancient red to bear, no holds barred?

I'm fairly new to DMing, help and opinions would be appreciated please.

I would think hard here about what your goals are for DMing. If you're running a simulationist campaign--one which tries to pretend like players sitting at the table don't really exist, focusing only on the logical in-world consequences of PC actions--then you might just kill the PCs and be done with it, because that does seem like the most probable outcome. If you're running a hybrid simulationist/gamist campaign, you might want to look for a way to apply logical in-world consequences which will also be fun for the players at the table even if they're not fun for the PCs, e.g. getting stripped of all their gear and equipment and dumped naked on a desert island (which turns out to have a magical dungeon in it, unbeknownst to the dragon king).

In short, either kill the PCs off or treat this as a chance to railroad them into anything you want because it's not railroading now--they totally earned it. Gladiatorial combat without weapons? Check. Marooned on a desert island? Check. Branded with magical tattoos and forced to hunt for the MacGuffin? Check.

I would keep my pulse on the players' reactions though. If they feel like death would be better than being branded with magical tattoos and forced into slavery, make sure they know that you won't mind if they want you to just say, "And you spend the rest of your lives as slaves. The End," and move on to a new campaign instead of playing out this one and trying to level up/eventually get revenge on the dragon king.

Edit: I didn't realize the PCs were level 14. At that level, it's entirely possible they will beat the Red Dragon in a straight-up fight, and so gladiator scenario/prison break/whatever will never happen. If so that's perfectly fine. When I wrote the above I was assuming the PCs were low-level chumps who stood no chance to withstand the dragon.

[CantigThimble]

Infidel defilers. They will all drown in lakes of blood. Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night.

But seriously, walking into a red dragon's lair is attempted suicide (with a small chance of failure) as far as I'm concerned. Walking out again with his hoard and family without a VERY good plan to avoid complete annihilation is suicide to the power of 4. Bring hell down, make them brutal. If they want a blaze of glory then give it to them but mercy is not an option.