Death and Destruction to us all.

[Riftwolf]

I've been thinking on this since Thor outlined how God-Nutrients work, and pointed out Hels getting no Worship. She gets all the other food groups, as Dwarves believe in her (albeit in a 'stay away' sense), involuntarily dedicate to her and she gets the soul at the end of it all.
A theme on prophecy in the comic is that it's at best vaguely informative, but not be able to change the course of the future. If 'bringing death and Destruction' translated to 'end the world' or 'kill all dwarves', then the prophecy would have been averted (or will be, as the story's not going to end with Rock Falls).
What Durkon and Exarch *might* do, however, is bring worship of Hel to the dwarves. Even as a negative figure, I'm guessing it'd balance Hel out compared to other Gods and might even calm her down. Current High Priest of Hel (the Frontarch) survives to pass on the (good? Bad? Neutral) news, and dwarves give thanks to Hel for being merciful to the sick, or whatever she got worship for in previous incarnations.
Possible/plausible?

[Keltest]

Personally im rather skeptical of any ending to this arc that involves Hel coming out ahead of where she started, but I suppose it is possible.

[SilverCacaobean]

If 'bringing death and Destruction' translated to 'kill lots of Thor's clerics' it's already been fulfilled. If you think it's not large scale enough to warrant such an ominous prophecy, keep in mind that Odin probably sent it to his HP on purpose to set in motion certain events concerning Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html).

[Peelee]

Eh, I have no problem with it. Vamp was going to end the world. I'd certainly say he brought death and destruction for them all. As soon as he was in the Dwarven halls with Hel's plan, the prophecy was complete. No different from. "when Peelee next returns home he will bring a hundred kittens," and yet police and animal control still take the kittens.

[Fyraltari]

Personally im rather skeptical of any ending to this arc that involves Hel coming out ahead of where she started, but I suppose it is possible.
She already is, though. Her high Priestess is unlikely to die any time soon.

Eh, I have no problem with it. Vamp was going to end the world. I'd certainly say he brought death and destruction for them all. As soon as he was in the Dwarven halls with Hel's plan, the prophecy was complete. No different from. "when Peelee next returns home he will bring a hundred kittens," and yet police and animal control still take the kittens.
Death and Destruction are events, not objects, until they happen they have not been brought anywhere.

[Peelee]

She already is, though. Her high Priestess is unlikely to die any time soon.

Death and Destruction are events, not objects, until they happen they have not been brought anywhere.

Let me rephrase.

If I bring the party to a friend's house and the cops shut us down almost instantly, I still brought the party.

[Ruck]

She already is, though. Her high Priestess is unlikely to die any time soon.

Death and Destruction are events, not objects, until they happen they have not been brought anywhere.

Peelee's got it covered, but similarly, if I bring cookies for everyone in the office and nobody eats them, that doesn't mean I failed to bring cookies.

And re: the subject line, I think the difference between "for us all" and "to us all" actually is significant. I think you can bring events or objects for someone and not have them necessarily happen to everyone. I think the prophecy was fulfilled when HPoH showed back up in Dwarven Lands, but that said, he did cause a lot of death and destruction before he checked out.

[SilverCacaobean]

Let me rephrase.

If I bring the party to a friend's house and the cops shut us down almost instantly, I still brought the party.

First they take your kittens, then they shut down your party? Damn cops, why can't they just let you be? :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

First they take your kittens, then they shut down your party? Damn cops, why can't they just let you be? :smalltongue:

Cops really wanted a kitten party, is my best guess.

[littlebum2002]

I mean Durkula & Co killed a lot of dwarves. I'd say that counts as "death and destruction to us all". He might not have killed every single dwarf in that community but it's certainly enough where the entire community will feel the loss.

[Fyraltari]

Let me rephrase.

If I bring the party to a friend's house and the cops shut us down almost instantly, I still brought the party.
That's better. I'm not really convinced though. We'll see.

I mean Durkula & Co killed a lot of dwarves. I'd say that counts as "death and destruction to us all". He might not have killed every single dwarf in that community but it's certainly enough where the entire community will feel the loss.
A freak mining accident killed more people and was not treated as particularly out of the ordinary.

[Peelee]

That's better. I'm not really convinced though. We'll see.

Oh, believe me, I absolutely brought the party.

[Linneris]

And re: the subject line, I think the difference between "for us all" and "to us all" actually is significant. I think you can bring events or objects for someone and not have them necessarily happen to everyone. I think the prophecy was fulfilled when HPoH showed back up in Dwarven Lands, but that said, he did cause a lot of death and destruction before he checked out.

This. "Death and destruction for us all" means a potential, an ability and/or plan to cause death and destruction. It doesn't say that the plan will necessarily succeed.

[Synesthesy]

We can also add that a vampire high priest of the goddess of Death is himself a kind of avatar of death and destruction... It can be enough...

[D.One]

We can also add that a vampire high priest of the goddess of Death is himself a kind of avatar of death and destruction... It can be enough...

And don't forget Cleric Domains...

[mjasghar]

Since the vampires targetted the clerics of that hold specifically the prophecy worked out - there should only be the night shift left

[Fyraltari]

Since the vampires targetted the clerics of that hold specifically the prophecy worked out - there should only be the night shift left
This is the night shift. Most of the temple's staff is at home, none the wiser (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1095.html).

[Quebbster]

She already is, though. Her high Priestess is unlikely to die any time soon.
At least not until the Godsmoot is over. It is unclear if her position still protects her when the Godsmoot ends though - she is surrounded by high level clerics, at least some of whom do not like vampires one bit.
Guess we will see how that part of the story plays out. If we don't see it playing out I will concede you were right.

[Zholvar]

At least not until the Godsmoot is over. It is unclear if her position still protects her when the Godsmoot ends though - she is surrounded by high level clerics, at least some of whom do not like vampires one bit.
Guess we will see how that part of the story plays out. If we don't see it playing out I will concede you were right.

I guess we will not go back to the godsmoot, veldrina will send the result to roy. Given all the rules there i think it's possible that there are some rules for the trips home in place.

[D.One]

I guess we will not go back to the godsmoot, veldrina will send the result to roy. Given all the rules there i think it's possible that there are some rules for the trips home in place.

I wonder if the rules say anything about waiting a vampire secure shelter before undoing the ceiling during daytime...

[Fyraltari]

At least not until the Godsmoot is over. It is unclear if her position still protects her when the Godsmoot ends though - she is surrounded by high level clerics, at least some of whom do not like vampires one bit.
Guess we will see how that part of the story plays out. If we don't see it playing out I will concede you were right.
The truce would not mean much if Loki's guy and Thor's gal were free to attack each other on the cathedral's doorstep. I suspect that the pilgrimage is subject to the same rules as the Godsmoot itself.
The fact that it is ecumenical (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html) (the priests paid respect to all the shrines) suggests as much.

This. "Death and destruction for us all" means a potential, an ability and/or plan to cause death and destruction. It doesn't say that the plan will necessarily succeed.
Wait really? If that's the case then the prophecy has been fullfilled, after all.

I wonder if the rules say anything about waiting a vampire secure shelter before undoing the ceiling during daytime...
She likely prayed for Protection from Sunlight when dusk came. If she hasn't well, she wouldn't be much of a loss, evidently. (Unless that's too high level for her, I don't know).

[Grey Watcher]

I guess we will not go back to the godsmoot, veldrina will send the result to roy. Given all the rules there i think it's possible that there are some rules for the trips home in place.

Yeah, it seems reasonable that there's some kind of rule about "no fighting until X amount of time passes" and/or "until you are (everyone is?) Y distance away from the site of the Moot."

And I'm also inclined to agree that we likely won't see any more of the Godsmoot than a one or two panel cutaway for a gag or for Veldrina's Sending or something.

[Keltest]

Im not sure that deciding on the godsmoot rules based on whats reasonable is a particularly productive line of thought.

[Lord Torath]

I wonder if the rules say anything about waiting a vampire secure shelter before undoing the ceiling during daytime...The Creed of Stone is in charge of deconstructing the Godsmoot cathedral, and I don't think they'd be that interested in waiting. Oh, wait (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html)...

[littlebum2002]

Im not sure that deciding on the godsmoot rules based on whats reasonable is a particularly productive line of thought.

I disagree. I think the Godsmoot rules are entirely reasonable for what they were designed to accomplish. You need to have a meeting between deities with no chance of fighting or arguing, and with Clerics who would normally try to kill each other on sight. You're going to have a lot of complicated rules to deal with that. It's just that someone discovered how to lawyer the rules to accomplish something that no one imagined when they were designed.

[Peelee]

I disagree. I think the Godsmoot rules are entirely reasonable for what they were designed to accomplish. You need to have a meeting between deities with no chance of fighting or arguing, and with Clerics who would normally try to kill each other on sight. You're going to have a lot of complicated rules to deal with that. It's just that someone discovered how to lawyer the rules to accomplish something that no one imagined when they were designed.

Agreed. The Godsmoot, like Malack, was not paranoid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?294943-Word-of-Recall/page5&p=15723647#post15723647).

[D.One]

She likely prayed for Protection from Sunlight when dusk came. If she hasn't well, she wouldn't be much of a loss, evidently. (Unless that's too high level for her, I don't know).

If she had time to learn it from the staff... broken staff... uh oh

[Fyraltari]

If she had time to learn it from the staff... broken staff... uh oh

Is it a custom spell or can Hel grant it normally?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is it a custom spell or can Hel grant it normally?

When Greg was lying about what he was doing below decks, he claimed that he was researching it so he could cast it without the staff, which suggests it is a custome spell. Of course, the previous sentence does include the word "lying" so how much we can trust the declaration is rather suspect.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

When Greg was lying about what he was doing below decks, he claimed that he was researching it so he could cast it without the staff, which suggests it is a custome spell. Of course, the previous sentence does include the word "lying" so how much we can trust the declaration is rather suspect.

Grey Wolf
Exactly, add that the Order or the pirates would not know if it was readily accessible.

[Mandor]

Also was the prophecy specifically that he bring Death and Destruction to all the dwarves in the dwarven lands, or that he brings death and destruction to the Church of Thor in his hometown?
"To us all", is still ambiguous depending on who is meant by "all".

Perhaps all the Clerics of Thor who were already members of the Church when he was kicked out, were in fact, killed, an ONLY a few recent acolytes remain.

[Peelee]

Also was the prophecy specifically that he bring Death and Destruction to all the dwarves in the dwarven lands, or that he brings death and destruction to the Church of Thor in his hometown?
"To us all", is still ambiguous depending on who is meant by "all".

Perhaps all the Clerics of Thor who were already members of the Church when he was kicked out, were in fact, killed, an ONLY a few recent acolytes remain.

A priest of Odin said it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html) to Hurak.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A priest of Odin said it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html) to Hurak.

And neither Hurak nor, as far as we can tell, the priest of Odin actually received the promised Death and Destruction, so the "to us all" is a bit suspect.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

High Priestess Rubyrock and everybody who wasn't on the night shift are also alright.

[Ruck]

Also was the prophecy specifically that he bring Death and Destruction to all the dwarves in the dwarven lands, or that he brings death and destruction to the Church of Thor in his hometown?
"To us all", is still ambiguous depending on who is meant by "all".

Perhaps all the Clerics of Thor who were already members of the Church when he was kicked out, were in fact, killed, an ONLY a few recent acolytes remain.


A priest of Odin said it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html) to Hurak.


And neither Hurak nor, as far as we can tell, the priest of Odin actually received the promised Death and Destruction, so the "to us all" is a bit suspect.

Grey Wolf

It is, again, "for us all," not "to us all," and yes, I think the semantic difference, when we're talking prophecy, is significant, or I wouldn't keep bringing it up.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is, again, "for us all," not "to us all," and yes, I think the semantic difference, when we're talking prophecy, is significant, or I wouldn't keep bringing it up.

I fail to see how the semantic difference, if there is indeed one, changes the fact that Hurak was untouched by the prophecy.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I fail to see how the semantic difference, if there is indeed one, changes the fact that Hurak was untouched by the prophecy.

Grey Wolf

It doesn't change that fact, but I think "death and destruction to us all" is more likely to concretely mean actually killing and destroying them, but "for us all" can be interpreted to mean the intent thereof.

I don't have a solid answer for who exactly "us all" is.

[Rrmcklin]

It doesn't change that fact, but I think "death and destruction to us all" is more likely to concretely mean actually killing and destroying them, but "for us all" can be interpreted to mean the intent thereof.

I don't have a solid answer for who exactly "us all" is.

In the context of Hel's scheme, it could mean the entire world, or specifically the Dwarven people. Personal preference on which works better, I guess.

[hroþila]

In the context of Hel's scheme, it could mean the entire world, or specifically the Dwarven people. Personal preference on which works better, I guess.
I think the interpretation necessarily depends on how one sees prophecies in the OotS world.

Are they merely a warning of a possible outcome that can be prevented, or of what will come to pass if the recipient of the prophecy doesn't do something about it? Then "us all" could be anything and we'll never know.

Are they a warning about an inevitable outcome that can't possibly be changed, and whatever the recipient does with the information was already taken into account by the wording of the prophecy? This is usually how classic prophecies work. Hurak putting the prophecy in motion by the very act of trying to prevent it would fit in very well here. If this is the correct interpretation, then we must conclude that Durkon HAS already brought death and destruction (whatever that is) to them all (whoever they are), because prophecies always come true and the conditions of this one have been met. So in this scenario, personally I think the likeliest interpretation would be:
Death and destruction - literally what it says on the can, on a large enough scale. This has not been a mass casualty scenario, but plenty of dwarves have been killed.
Us all - the dwarves as a whole. All of them have been (or still are) in danger, many have died and presumably many more will have been affected by this in more indirect ways.

[Fyraltari]

My money is still on "at least one vampire escapes and the infestation turns into a long-term issue for Firmament".

[Riftwolf]

I think the interpretation necessarily depends on how one sees prophecies in the OotS world.

Are they merely a warning of a possible outcome that can be prevented, or of what will come to pass if the recipient of the prophecy doesn't do something about it? Then "us all" could be anything and we'll never know.

Are they a warning about an inevitable outcome that can't possibly be changed, and whatever the recipient does with the information was already taken into account by the wording of the prophecy? This is usually how classic prophecies work. Hurak putting the prophecy in motion by the very act of trying to prevent it would fit in very well here. If this is the correct interpretation, then we must conclude that Durkon HAS already brought death and destruction (whatever that is) to them all (whoever they are), because prophecies always come true and the conditions of this one have been met. So in this scenario, personally I think the likeliest interpretation would be:
Death and destruction - literally what it says on the can, on a large enough scale. This has not been a mass casualty scenario, but plenty of dwarves have been killed.
Us all - the dwarves as a whole. All of them have been (or still are) in danger, many have died and presumably many more will have been affected by this in more indirect ways.

All prophecies thus far (most in the comic are from Oracle) have been 'this knowledge won't change the future, so knowing is kinda redundant'. Haley's prophecy didn't even make sense to her till after she'd got her voice back. Durkons prophecy was a relief to him because he misinterpreted it as going back dead for burial, not undead. V's prophecy hasn't even been referenced (by my memory) post-splice. Belkars was agreed as being utterly worthless, but even though the Oracle tried to weasel out, he knew that Belkar would kill him; admittedly he changed some of the circumstances around the incident, but not the incident itself (which, as an Oracle and jerk, he was always going to do). Roy's was more useful, even if he shot himself in the foot, as it gave him the running order for the Gates, but nothing that's happened so far has disrupted the order. Elan's was a fourth wall acknowledgement that no matter how bad things get, it's not going to end with Rock Falls, which isn't really that useful to anyone but the bitterest cynic who expects a story to end with a 'screw you' twist. Blackwings was a last panel joke; it turns out the *real* way to stop V forgetting him (if that's what he asked) was to become plot relevant and be a surrogate conscience.
I don't have the War and Xps book so don't know the exact wording of Sangwans prophecy.

So,are prophecies detailing possible futures, warnings of the inevitable, or ways that Gods nudge freewill into the right path? Ones from the Oracle seem to be inevitable. Other sources are more ambiguous.

As for 'D+D to us all' or 'D+D for us all'... I'd like to dismiss that as same meaning, but Rich is smart than wording. To us all sounds like how it's been generally interpreted; Durkon will kill us. For us all makes it sound like D+D would be gifts.