Why don't people talk about MoF's Flying Magic Weapon Special Ability more?

[RoboEmperor]

Seems ludicrously broken to me and I just happened to notice it while looking up something else.


A flying weapon can fly at speed 30 feet and is treated as an animated object with hardness and hit points equal to a typical weapon of its kind. A flying weapon follows orders subject to the limits of its ability (it has no Intelligence) but can be ordered to guard a location just as an animated skeleton can. Only melee weapons can have the flying ability.

For the low, low price of 8000gp (4000 if you craft it yourself), you can turn a Colossal two-handed weapon (which is really, really cheap) into a permanent Colossal Animated Object. And this is without going into Improvised Weapon shenanigans to animate a non-weapon permanently.

I've been theorycrafting minionmancy for a while now on this board and nobody ever mentioned this to me. Am I missing something here that would make the above illegal? And how did this escape my (and the vast majority of people here's) notice?

[Silva Stormrage]

I think mainly for the fact that I don't think most DM's would allow you spamming out colossal animated objects for 8k. Especially if you put any effort into actually using special materials like Riverine or Oburdirium or some other ridiculous metal.

It falls into the same category as planar binding hordes of minions, granted not nearly as broken and far more obscure but still. Sure it's RAW but for most games it wouldn't be allowed.

[Troacctid]

A lot of 3.0 material gets left out of optimization discussions—as do items in general, actually. There seems to be surprisingly little discussion on this forum about optimizing WBL. I guess people consider it less interesting than optimizing builds. Doing research for my Warlock Handbook, I've run into some surprisingly powerful stuff that I'd never heard of before. Like, have you ever looked at the magic items in Defenders of the Faith? There's some real OP armor enhancements there for sure.

[Segev]

A lot of 3.0 material gets left out of optimization discussions—as do items in general, actually. There seems to be surprisingly little discussion on this forum about optimizing WBL. I guess people consider it less interesting than optimizing builds. Doing research for my Warlock Handbook, I've run into some surprisingly powerful stuff that I'd never heard of before. Like, have you ever looked at the magic items in Defenders of the Faith? There's some real OP armor enhancements there for sure.

I think it's mostly that WBL-optimization has been done to death, mostly in the "____ vs. wizard" type threads where people start just using WBL-mancy to mimic being a wizard if the class in the other side of the fight is not able to stand up on its own.

[heavyfuel]

There seems to be surprisingly little discussion on this forum about optimizing WBL. I guess people consider it less interesting than optimizing builds.

One factor might be that WBL isn't as guaranteed as Levels.

WBL is a guideline and you can't be sure you'll have X amount of money by level Y in most cases. Levels, and things derived from them, are the opposite. You are, in fact, guaranteed a feat every 3rd level, Z amounts of skill points every level, and so on.

[unseenmage]

I enjoy it a great deal. Used it way back when on my biggest-est best-est infinite income artificer.

Sadly, there's another weapon enhancement of the same name in a later book so the later one counts as errata for the MoF one.

Much like the Minor Servitor spell becoming Awaken Construct in SC our table just let's both exist instead.

[RoboEmperor]

I think mainly for the fact that I don't think most DM's would allow you spamming out colossal animated objects for 8k. Especially if you put any effort into actually using special materials like Riverine or Oburdirium or some other ridiculous metal.

It falls into the same category as planar binding hordes of minions, granted not nearly as broken and far more obscure but still. Sure it's RAW but for most games it wouldn't be allowed.

I don't think this is the reason because people on this forum don't hesitate to recommend OP stuff.


Sadly, there's another weapon enhancement of the same name in a later book so the later one counts as errata for the MoF one.

That's not how it works. Wall of Water in Frostburn is an original spell that is a good BFC. Wall of Water in Dragon Magazine that's later in the SpC is just a way to use your swim speed in the fight. Just because the two authors did not communicate about spell names doesn't mean one should be eliminated.

The flying in OA is a separate weapon special ability that just happened to share a name with a MoF weapon special ability. The two are completely unrelated.

[gogogome]

As DM I will say that because it's a CL9 effect it cannot animate anything bigger than Huge. That would make it not broken.

[Darrin]

It satisfies the typical two-pronged "Is it from the Forgotten Realms?" test:

1) Is it an interesting idea?
2) Is it described poorly with vague wording?

Once properly identified, you're left with something that requires interpretation from the DM to work properly. So it's difficult to tell exactly how effective it will be in play.

The description says a flying weapon follows orders to the limits of its ability, and then says it has no ability to understand orders (it has no Intelligence). Does it understand orders as per the animate objects spell, which only includes directing it to attack a creature? Or do you go by the animated objects entry in the MM, which only says, "They follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities", but doesn't explain any further (Still has no intelligence). Then it mentions they can be directed to guard things like a skeleton... but animate dead and the skeleton entry in the MM don't mention anything about whether they can understand commands. The clearest rules we have on giving instructions to non-intelligent creatures is from the Golem description in the MM, but that's not mentioned anywhere in the ability.

I did use it for my Flying Force Surfboard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5), although I think I like it better on an spiked gauntlet, which can wield a weapon, open doors, drop a feather token, manipulate objects, etc.

[unseenmage]

...

That's not how it works. Wall of Water in Frostburn is an original spell that is a good BFC. Wall of Water in Dragon Magazine that's later in the SpC is just a way to use your swim speed in the fight. Just because the two authors did not communicate about spell names doesn't mean one should be eliminated.

The flying in OA is a separate weapon special ability that just happened to share a name with a MoF weapon special ability. The two are completely unrelated.
Back when I was trying to optimize it that's not what I was told.

Could you find evidence to back this up? Would be quite useful to me.

[RoboEmperor]

Back when I was trying to optimize it that's not what I was told.

Could you find evidence to back this up? Would be quite useful to me.

Wall of Water.

SpC does NOT list Frostburn as a source. So how can the SpC be an update to Frostburn when it doesn't include it as a source? I went as far as to find the Dragon Magazine with Wall of Water online and it was identical to the SpC version and it was included in the SpC's bibliography. This is evidence enough that same name =/= same effect.

Read the two Wall of Waters. Their effects couldn't be more different.

[unseenmage]

...

I did use it for my Flying Force Surfboard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5), although I think I like it better on an spiked gauntlet, which can wield a weapon, open doors, drop a feather token, manipulate objects, etc.
I used it on an Int Magic Item quarterstaff that was later enchanted to be a magic staff with charges.

IIRC there was some convoluted way to make BoVD hivemind of them make more of themselves effectively becoming the slowest nanite swarm ever.

[RoboEmperor]

It satisfies the typical two-pronged "Is it from the Forgotten Realms?" test:

1) Is it an interesting idea?
2) Is it described poorly with vague wording?

Once properly identified, you're left with something that requires interpretation from the DM to work properly. So it's difficult to tell exactly how effective it will be in play.

I did use it for my Flying Force Surfboard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5), although I think I like it better on an spiked gauntlet, which can wield a weapon, open doors, drop a feather token, manipulate objects, etc.

I'm gonna go with a masterwork improvised weapon. That way I can get a robot. Robot > gauntlet. Preferably adamantine.