Monster with class levels

[Thanos92]

Hi all!
First time I add class levels to a monster in Pathfinder (I did it in 3.5 though), I ask u to review my work.

Gnoll + 2 Barbarian levels.

1. When adding class levels to a creature, the first step is to determine what role the base creature fulfills

Gnoll is combat, so barbarian should be okay.

2. Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities.

I think that's the main difference with 3.5, where you have specific racial modifiers.

So, for my Gnoll: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 6

Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack.

So Hit dices: 2d8 + 2d12 (+4*4 =24 for CON) = 40 (1/2 dice but 1st full)
BaB: 1 (gnoll) +2 (barbarian) = +3
CMB/DMC: easy calculations if the aboves are correct.
Feats: 2 feats: 1st hit dice and 3rd hit dice.
Skill: ??
Class and racial features: darkvision 18, and all barbarian features for levels 1 and 2

Saving throws: ?? base gnoll has 2, 0, 0, barbarian has 3, 0, 0, so 5, 0, 0?

Thanks a lot. 1st timer here so I wanna be sure.

Thanks, thanks a lot again

[upho]

Hi all!Hi Thanos92!


First time I add class levels to a monster in Pathfinder (I did it in 3.5 though), I ask u to review my work.

Gnoll + 2 Barbarian levels.First, just two notes in case you've missed it:

1. The gnoll already exists as a PC race (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/gnoll-6-rp) (without racial HD). It's few traits makes it a bit bland mechanically speaking, but +2 Str and Con, no stat penalties, +2 NA and darkvision definitely makes it viable as a Str-based melee focused character, and especially as a barbarian or bloodrager.

2. The "Monsters as PCs" rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/) were actually replaced by the later published races and the (poorly balanced) race creation system (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races/) from the ARG. Of course, this shouldn't stop you from playing actual monsters according to the old rules if your GM has allowed it.


1. When adding class levels to a creature, the first step is to determine what role the base creature fulfills

Gnoll is combat, so barbarian should be okay.A gnoll is a humanoid and can take levels in any class. What you're quoting is just a guideline for GMs primarily to help with determining CR when adding class levels to a monster.


2. Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities.

I think that's the main difference with 3.5, where you have specific racial modifiers.

So, for my Gnoll: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 6Again, these are rules for GMs adding class levels to monsters, not for monsters as PCs. And if you're actually allowed to include the ability score changes, at least when combined with a class marked as "key" for its role, as in this case, the gnoll's CR also increases by +1 according to these rules. Which means your gnoll will have a CR of 2, and with 2 levels of barbarian you'd be the treated as the equivalent of a "normal" 4th level PC with no racial HD.

In general, I'd recommend a GM doesn't allow for including these ability score changes as it can create more unbalanced PCs, especially during earlier levels and if different CR monsters are allowed. At least unless perhaps in cases when the CR does increase to an even number matching with those of other monster PCs in the game. (An even CR number is often advantageous due to the specifics of how racial HD are discounted as more class levels are gained.)

So per the "Monsters as PCs" rules, the gnoll's racial ability score adjustments are: Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, and Cha -2 (add your point buy or rolled numbers to this as normal). These adjustments are based on reducing the gnoll's ability scores by -10 or -11 for an even result.


So Hit dices: 2d8 + 2d12 (+4*4 =24 for CON) = 40 (1/2 dice but 1st full)Almost right. You get: 9 (2d8 gnoll HD) + 12 (1st barbarian level) + 6.5 (2nd barbarian level) = 27 (plus Con bonus x 4, and up to +2 from barbarian favored class bonus).


Skill: ??The gnoll is a humanoid and thus gains 2 skill points/HD. So your total number of skill points would be (2 x 2 gnoll HD) + (4 x 2 barbarian levels) + (4 x Int bonus). Keep in mind you always get a minimum of 1 skill point/HD or level, even if you have an Int as low as 5.


Class and racial features: darkvision 18Darkvision 18? The gnoll has darkvision 60 feet.


and all barbarian features for levels 1 and 2Yep.


Saving throws: ?? base gnoll has 2, 0, 0, barbarian has 3, 0, 0, so 5, 0, 0?The two gnoll HD's provide +3 to Fort, just like the two barbarian levels ("fast progression"). So Fort +6, Ref 0, Will 0, plus ability score modifiers, feats, items etc.

[Thanos92]

First, just two notes in case you've missed it:

1. The gnoll already exists as a PC race (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/gnoll-6-rp) (without racial HD). It's few traits makes it a bit bland mechanically speaking, but +2 Str and Con, no stat penalties, +2 NA and darkvision definitely makes it viable as a Str-based melee focused character, and especially as a barbarian or bloodrager.

That's a good finding, thanks a lot!



2. The "Monsters as PCs" rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/) were actually replaced by the later published races and the (poorly balanced) race creation system (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races/) from the ARG. Of course, this shouldn't stop you from playing actual monsters according to the old rules if your GM has allowed it.

A gnoll is a humanoid and can take levels in any class. What you're quoting is just a guideline for GMs primarily to help with determining CR when adding class levels to a monster.

Again, these are rules for GMs adding class levels to monsters, not for monsters as PCs. And if you're actually allowed to include the ability score changes, at least when combined with a class marked as "key" for its role, as in this case, the gnoll's CR also increases by +1 according to these rules. Which means your gnoll will have a CR of 2, and with 2 levels of barbarian you'd be the treated as the equivalent of a "normal" 4th level PC with no racial HD.

In general, I'd recommend a GM doesn't allow for including these ability score changes as it can create more unbalanced PCs, especially during earlier levels and if different CR monsters are allowed. At least unless perhaps in cases when the CR does increase to an even number matching with those of other monster PCs in the game. (An even CR number is often advantageous due to the specifics of how racial HD are discounted as more class levels are gained.)

So per the "Monsters as PCs" rules, the gnoll's racial ability score adjustments are: Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, and Cha -2 (add your point buy or rolled numbers to this as normal). These adjustments are based on reducing the gnoll's ability scores by -10 or -11 for an even result.


So, I think I've not been too precise here. What I wanted to create is a monster with class levels (the gnoll should be the chief of a group of gnolls) not a real character. So, as you say, this should be correct, right?
A question here: is it better to use the race without racial HD (the one u linked) or to give the base gnoll from Bestiary a class?



The gnoll is a humanoid and thus gains 2 skill points/HD. So your total number of skill points would be (2 x 2 gnoll HD) + (4 x 2 barbarian levels) + (4 x Int bonus). Keep in mind you always get a minimum of 1 skill point/HD or level, even if you have an Int as low as 5.

The two gnoll HD's provide +3 to Fort, just like the two barbarian levels ("fast progression"). So Fort +6, Ref 0, Will 0, plus ability score modifiers, feats, items etc.

Really thanks a lot, again!