Lich 5e

[EmceeLadyHammer]

Is there anything stronger than a lich or would be able to control one?

[Theodoric]

Orcus, the Demon Prince of Undeath?

[Maxilian]

Undeath creatures? Only the Illithid CR 22 from Volos.

There is an unique Demi-Lich with the same CR as the Lich, Acererak Demilich

Non-Undeath? there are many:

- Ancient Green or Black Dragon 22 CR (MM)
-Geryon 22 CR (MTF)
-Zaratan 22 CR (MTF)
-Baphomet 23 CR (MTF)
-Elder Tempest 23 CR (MTF)
-Emperyean 23 CR (MM)

and so on!

There are up to CR 30 (Like the Tarrasque)

[Unoriginal]

Is there anything stronger than a lich or would be able to control one?

Do you mean, as a player option?

Otherwise, yes, there are plenty of creatures who are stronger than a lich.

Do you have any specific said creature should have, aside form "stronger than a lich"?

[tieren]

A small child with the Lich's phylactery in a vice?

[GlenSmash!]

A bigger badder lich.

[Unoriginal]

A small child with the Lich's phylactery in a vice?

That wouldn't do anything. The Lich would be fine if you destroy their phylactery, as long as they're not killed before they re-create it.

[Maxilian]

Well a LVL 18 Oathbreaker, with a High lvl Wizard Friend, could actually control a Demi-lich, with a combination of Feeblemind and Channel Divinity: Control Undead.

[Rentirith]

From the viewpoint of a DM coming up with reasons that a lich would serve another creature, all you have to do is press the I believe button and justify the situation. Yes Liches need to be powerful in order to come across as a credible threat, but they aren't the end all be all of bad guys. There could be a staff of the whispering soil that is able to exert control over the undead within a certain area. Now, this isn't by the rules because there is no staff of whispering soil in anything published for Wotc 5e that I know of, but thats the beauty of the game; you can just say 'this happens' as the dm so long as it lets everyone have fun playing the game.

From the viewpoint of the player, Liches are very powerful undead with a great knowledge of magic at their fingertips. Others have talked about the oathbreaker channel divinity to exert control over an undead. This has a set duration but can be recast to maintain control over the undead. The necromancer wizards' level 14 ability technically does this as well, but has the added condition that if the creature has an intelligence score high enough (i.e. lich) then the creature can redo their saving throw every hour. So these options are not going to guarantee control over the lich. However, there is more than one way to 'control' someone than just magical means. Spending time researching and exploring with the purpose of figuring out where the Liches phylactery is will give you a solid advantage and source of blackmail against the lich, though you need to protect yourself against immediate sorcerous rebuttal. I think that the lvl 9 imprisonment spell might work for a while since it doesn't actually destroy the body of the lich, and keeps it secluded from harming others. Feeblemind should work along the same line of thinking, but good luck getting the failed intelligence saving throw. DISCLAIMER: if you are currently trying to figure out how to fight a lich in an actual game, please don't use this as metagame fuel immediately and make your dm send a blood curse against me. Instead, ask if you can use this (if you put much stock in the word of some internet guy you haven't met even) then use this as a means of giving your dm inspiration and ideas to give your party quests.

TL:DR; if you are a dm asking this, just make something up. If you are a player wondering this, don't metagame but the options are there in the books. Just use what you have at your disposal and do your best to be more clever than how the dm runs the Lich. :smallwink:

[JackPhoenix]

That wouldn't do anything. The Lich would be fine if you destroy their phylactery, as long as they're not killed before they re-create it.

Assuming that's possible. Nothing in the lich's fluff suggests it is... and considering liches start to degrade if they don't feed souls into their phylactery, they may end up as a demilich long before they can create a new one even if it is.

[Unoriginal]

Assuming that's possible. Nothing in the lich's fluff suggests it is... and considering liches start to degrade if they don't feed souls into their phylactery, they may end up as a demilich long before they can create a new one even if it is.

The fluff makes clear the lich's soul isn't in the phylactery most of the time, and there's nothing suggesting they *can't* recreate it (as long as they go through the process again, of course).

[JackPhoenix]

The fluff makes clear the lich's soul isn't in the phylactery most of the time, and there's nothing suggesting they *can't* recreate it (as long as they go through the process again, of course).

The fluff makes clear the lich's soul *is* in the phylactery all of the time: "With its phylactery prepared, the future lich drinks a potion of transformation-a vile concoction of poison mixed with the blood of a sentient creature whose soul is sacrificed to the phylactery. The wizard falls dead, then rises as a lich as its soul is drawn into the phylactery, where it forever remains."

Also, it is likely the potion won't work on a lich if it's already undead... they are immune to poison, after all.

"When a lich's body is broken by accident or assault, the will and mind of the lich drains from it, leaving only a lifeless corpse behind."

The will and mind... not the soul.

And if the phylactery was so unimportant, liches wouldn't waste so much effort keeping it safe.

[Unoriginal]

The fluff makes clear the lich's soul *is* in the phylactery all of the time: "With its phylactery prepared, the future lich drinks a potion of transformation-a vile concoction of poison mixed with the blood of a sentient creature whose soul is sacrificed to the phylactery. The wizard falls dead, then rises as a lich as its soul is drawn into the phylactery, where it forever remains."


My bad. I must be more tired than I thought.



And if the phylactery was so unimportant, liches wouldn't waste so much effort keeping it safe.

Well in past editions the idea was more you had to destroy both the phylactery and the lich before either could be recreated. A lich in battle with an hidden phylactery was safe. A lich a safe place when their phylactery was broken was safe. So it wasn't unimportant, just replaceable, which made the liches much harder to kill.

5e's take is good, though.