heavyfuel
2018-10-22, 04:26 PM
And in this week's dumpster dive, we have Unearthed Arcana's Generic Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm). These classes don't exist in a traditional game and the DM must be using this particular rule for them to even be playable, but the general idea is that these classes get "Bonus Feats" which can be used to get regular feats or to get some class features such as Sneak Attack or Smite Evil. All three classes are pretty terrible in their own way, if you ask me, but I do think we should Tier them for the sake of completion. And that's it. Generic Classes, the last of the base classes. Thanks to all who have participated in this.
Generic Expert: This class gets a bunch of skills and that's it. Most skillmonkey classes get some way to deal damage or be relevant in combat, but this class gets naught. A few dice of sneak attack damage just doesn't cut it. Overall, I don't think this class can do much more than the DMG Expert, which is Tier 5. They're definitely not on par with the Rogue at Tier 3.8. I'll be generous and say they are Tier 4.
Generic Spellcaster: This class gets spells known as a Sorcerer, but can pick any spell from Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric, and Druid list. On top of that, it also gets some class features/bonus feats. They can even get Turn Undead to fuel DMM if they choose to be Divine Casters (since DMM only works on divine spells). That's a straight up better sorcerer/spontaneous cleric. If we say the Spontaneous Cleric is Tier 1.7, there's no reason for this class to not be Tier 1.
Generic Warrior: This class gets the largest amount of Bonus feats, it gets them like a Fighter gets Fighter Feats, only these don't have to be Fighter Feats. However, a bunch of feats don't make for a good class. It's probably higher Tier than the Fighter (tier 4.5), but not by much. I say Tier 4.
What are the tiers?
The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.
A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0) are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.
Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System). A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.
Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.
Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.
Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a swordsage. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.
Tier four: Here we're in ranger/barbarian territory (though the ranger should be considered largely absent of ACF's and stuff to hit this tier, as will be talked about later). Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.
Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of monks, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.
Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.
The Threads
Tier System Home Base (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home)
The Icarnum Classes: Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568774-Retiering-the-Classes-Incarnate-Soulborn-Totemist&p=23358636#post23358636)
The Auraists (Re-Done): Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Marshal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569997-Retiering-the-Classes-Divine-Mind-Dragon-Shaman-and-Marshal-(re-done)&p=23392694#post23392694)
Completing the Psionics: Ardent, Erudite, Lurk, Psychic Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570457-Retiering-the-Classes-Ardent-Erudite-Lurk-Psychic-Rogue)
The Stray Dogs: Knight, Noble, Swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570925-Retiering-the-Classes-Knight-Noble-Swashbuckler)
The Dragon Magaziners: Mystic Ranger, Trickster, Wild Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571537-Retiering-the-Classes-Mystic-Ranger-Trickster-Wild-Monk&p=23439210)
The Rankings
Generic Expert: Tier 4
Generic Spellcaster: Tier 1
Generic Warrior: Tier 4
Generic Expert: This class gets a bunch of skills and that's it. Most skillmonkey classes get some way to deal damage or be relevant in combat, but this class gets naught. A few dice of sneak attack damage just doesn't cut it. Overall, I don't think this class can do much more than the DMG Expert, which is Tier 5. They're definitely not on par with the Rogue at Tier 3.8. I'll be generous and say they are Tier 4.
Generic Spellcaster: This class gets spells known as a Sorcerer, but can pick any spell from Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric, and Druid list. On top of that, it also gets some class features/bonus feats. They can even get Turn Undead to fuel DMM if they choose to be Divine Casters (since DMM only works on divine spells). That's a straight up better sorcerer/spontaneous cleric. If we say the Spontaneous Cleric is Tier 1.7, there's no reason for this class to not be Tier 1.
Generic Warrior: This class gets the largest amount of Bonus feats, it gets them like a Fighter gets Fighter Feats, only these don't have to be Fighter Feats. However, a bunch of feats don't make for a good class. It's probably higher Tier than the Fighter (tier 4.5), but not by much. I say Tier 4.
What are the tiers?
The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.
A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0) are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.
Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System). A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.
Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.
Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.
Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a swordsage. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.
Tier four: Here we're in ranger/barbarian territory (though the ranger should be considered largely absent of ACF's and stuff to hit this tier, as will be talked about later). Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.
Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of monks, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.
Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.
The Threads
Tier System Home Base (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home)
The Icarnum Classes: Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568774-Retiering-the-Classes-Incarnate-Soulborn-Totemist&p=23358636#post23358636)
The Auraists (Re-Done): Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Marshal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569997-Retiering-the-Classes-Divine-Mind-Dragon-Shaman-and-Marshal-(re-done)&p=23392694#post23392694)
Completing the Psionics: Ardent, Erudite, Lurk, Psychic Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570457-Retiering-the-Classes-Ardent-Erudite-Lurk-Psychic-Rogue)
The Stray Dogs: Knight, Noble, Swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570925-Retiering-the-Classes-Knight-Noble-Swashbuckler)
The Dragon Magaziners: Mystic Ranger, Trickster, Wild Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571537-Retiering-the-Classes-Mystic-Ranger-Trickster-Wild-Monk&p=23439210)
The Rankings
Generic Expert: Tier 4
Generic Spellcaster: Tier 1
Generic Warrior: Tier 4