Ways to optimize the Dragon's Breath spell?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I was wondering if there is a specific way to improve the spell Dragon's Breath as I think it could be good if built around it and the fluff of a Dragon Born giving others the ability to have a breath weapon is very thematic, but I am not sure of any way to make it great other than using it with a minion such as a familiar or mount (Find Steed could be great here)? It seems that it being an action to breath is just a bit to harsh, as it prevents you from casting many spells yourself.

First Impressions:
-Sorcerer 3+ & Tempest Cleric 6: Auto push whenever I use this spell unless they are immune to Lightning, giving great control elements and allows a high AC due to Armor Proficiency and a shield you don't even need a melee weapon as you could also be running around with Spiritual Weapon?

-Sorcerer 3+ & Pact Warlock 3+: Guaranteed availability of the spell every encounter since you could use the warlock short rest spell slots to cast it? Dangerous Flying Familiar using it, while you do other things.

-Lore Bard 6: Find Steed, & Dragon's Breath for awesome fire breathing celestial giant riding lizard basically your own mini-dragon :)

-Fighter Eldritch Knight 3+, Wizard 3+ War Mage: Very interesting high ac caster with a shield or 2 handed sword who uses this spell for offense while waiting to use Counterspell or Dispel Magic, very punishing and surprising close range fighter/mage.

-Fighter Eldritch Knight 3+: Wizard Bladesinger 3+: Not great but could be OK and will be really hard to end the concentration roll. Would work similar to the one above it but be a bit better when Blade Song is up.

Bad Impressions:
Sorcerer 3+, Paladin 5+: Bad this style needs its action badly...unless your running it on your steed then it becomes a bit better still not great.

Rogues: Bad this style needs its action badly...a very bad idea...

[sophontteks]

Pact warlock. It doesn't break the familiar's invisibility. Its not an attack.

[Citadel97501]

Pact warlock. It doesn't break the familiar's invisibility. Its not an attack.

Ugh OK Missed that :)

[Pex]

Sorcerer + Magic Initiate for Find Familiar. Twin the spell between himself and his familiar. Double the spell effect. It's better than Twinning with other party members because they want to do their own thing.

[xyianth]

Funny that this would come up, I was just messing around with this idea today.

The basic concept I came up with was:

divine soul sorcerer 1/celestial warlock 3/divine soul sorcerer +3
take the feat inspiring leader and max your charisma (as much as is possible)
learn the mage armor, sanctuary, warding bond, and dragon's breath spells as a sorcerer
take pact of the chain for the powerful familiars; imp is optimal, pseudodragon is funnier.


How this works:

Every rest, select yourself and your familiar as recipients of your inspiring leader feat's temp hp.
Buff your familiar with mage armor at the start of the day and warding bond whenever you expect combat.
On the first round, cast dragon's breath as your bonus action and target your familiar. Use your action however you like. Your familiar can now use the breath weapon each round.
On the second round, cast sanctuary as your bonus action and target your familiar. Again, use your action however you like.
If you are using the imp as your familiar, it is invisible, has an AC of 17, has 10+level+cha hp, has resistance to all damage, and any creature that attempts to attack it must succeed on a wisdom save DC 8+proficiency bonus+cha. Pseudodragons have an AC of 16 and are visible, but can move faster.
The ability that the dragon's breath spell grants is not an attack and it is not casting a spell. This means it does not break your familiar's invisibility nor does it end the sanctuary effect.


You can continue this build in a lot of different ways, more sorcerer is probably the default path, but switching to a paladin or bard would also be potentially interesting. I think, if you twin dragon's breath to cast it on both yourself and your familiar, while you also had a mount from the find steed line of spells, you could share the instance you cast on yourself with your mount and get 3 creatures breathing like a dragon each round.

While not the point of the build, this character setup also gets 9 cantrips drawn from the sorcerer, cleric, and warlock lists by character level 7; which should give you plenty of utility and combat options.

[AttilatheYeon]

Pact warlock. It doesn't break the familiar's invisibility. Its not an attack.

Does Warlock get Dragon's Breath?

[Kaliayev]

Does Warlock get Dragon's Breath?

Nope, but a sorlock would. One could also find a potion of fire breath for similar effect. Other than that, I'm pretty sure a caster with dragon's breath wouldn't object to casting it on an imp that can turn invisible.

[Kadesh]

Ugh OK Missed that :)
You are however no longer hiding, and the opponents aware of your presence, meaning that they can target you and attack you.

[Rolero]

How Dragon's Breath can not be considered an attack?
Sure, is doesn't say (specifically) that you are using an attack action or casting a spell, but any DM with some common sense will declare that breathing elemental damage is an aggresive action, hence, an attack. I only see this route working in theorycrafting, with the intended idea depending on the DM's call about it.

In any case, I think it is a pretty cool concept, and a good way to save spell resources while keeping the dps strong.

[Aett_Thorn]

How Dragon's Breath can not be considered an attack?
Sure, is doesn't say (specifically) that you are using an attack action or casting a spell, but any DM with some common sense will declare that breathing elemental damage is an aggresive action, hence, an attack. I only see this route working in theorycrafting, with the intended idea depending on the DM's call about it.

In any case, I think it is a pretty cool concept, and a good way to save spell resources while keeping the dps strong.

“Attack”, as a game term, does not equate to a hostile action. Yes, it is a hostile action, no question. But this game uses the term attack pretty narrowly.

[sophontteks]

How Dragon's Breath can not be considered an attack?
Sure, is doesn't say (specifically) that you are using an attack action or casting a spell, but any DM with some common sense will declare that breathing elemental damage is an aggresive action, hence, an attack. I only see this route working in theorycrafting, with the intended idea depending on the DM's call about it.

In any case, I think it is a pretty cool concept, and a good way to save spell resources while keeping the dps strong.
Casting a spell doesn't break imp invisibility either. The only way they can break it is by making the attack action or losing concentration. I also realized that they can deliver touch spells while remaining invisible too making for a really cool way to deliver bestow curse without being detected. They can also use scrolls and items while remaining invisible, so dragon breath is hardly an exception to their capabilities.

It certainly could be an oversight, but then again pact of the chain is supposed to offer a significant advantage over the regular familiars. Currently many players prefer to just take tomelock and pick up find familiar as a ritual, because they don't think these special familiars offer enough to compete with extra cantrips and ritual casting. Yet when the actual advantages these souped up familiars have are pointed out, they are handwaved as "not heing intended."

It certainly would have been easier for the writers to just copy paste the text from the invisibility spell, but they specifically mentioned that this invisibility only breaks if an attack is made. And the greatest consequence that I see here is that tomelock isn't the obvious choice many people believe it to be.

[BobZan]

You can't Twin Dragon's Breath per RAI.

[xyianth]

You can't Twin Dragon's Breath per RAI.

Why not? it targets only one creature. The ability to breathe is the effect, the targets of the breath are not the targets of the spell.

By the same logic, you can twin the Haste spell, even though people use their hasted action to attack other creatures. How is dragon's breath any different?

[Aett_Thorn]

Why not? it targets only one creature. The ability to breathe is the effect, the targets of the breath are not the targets of the spell.

That’s why it’s fine RAW, but the designers did clarify that because the end effect is an AoE, that it didn’t qualify for Twin Spell. However, as a DM I’d allow it.

[BobZan]

Why not? it targets only one creature. The ability to breathe is the effect, the targets of the breath are not the targets of the spell.

By the same logic, you can twin the Haste spell, even though people use their hasted action to attack other creatures. How is dragon's breath any different?

As I said, per RAI it can't be done, as dev said on this Sage Advice. Per RAW you can understand that it can be done.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/01/06/is-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade/

[Eragon123]

As I said, per RAI it can't be done, as dev said on this Sage Advice. Per RAW you can understand that it can be done.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/01/06/is-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade/

http://cdn-webimages.wimages.net/050ca2dcc2bd25538469a72f1b4b6617ce85e5-wm.jpg?v=3

[Man_Over_Game]

The official ruling on Twin Spells is "You can twin a spell that can magically affect only a single creature". This is different from the writing on Twinned Spell, but that's the intent of the restriction. Since there's no way for Dragon's Breath to specifically choose a single creature to affect (and you ARE affecting creatures with magical damage from the spell), Dragon's Breath is not eligible. It took me a while to get it, but it's whatever.

Similarly, Ice Knife is not a valid option, even though it targets a single creature, but can still affect multiple creatures due to it's explosive ability. That also has been confirmed as RAI, but I don't have the actual link to it, sorry.

[Master O'Laughs]

Check with your DM. If they decide to go with RAW and twin works with Dragon's Breath, have fun! If they decide to take into account J.C.'s thought on RAI, then you are more limited.

[Sirithhyando]

Nope, but a sorlock would. One could also find a potion of fire breath for similar effect. Other than that, I'm pretty sure a caster with dragon's breath wouldn't object to casting it on an imp that can turn invisible.

One game I'm playing in, this is what my wizard and my friend warlock do. Wizard cast dragon breath on the warlock invisible imp.
Then we have fun with an invisible elemental breathing invisible imp. He likes the attention too much... :smallbiggrin:

[Damon_Tor]

That’s why it’s fine RAW

People keep saying that. I disagree.

The targets of a spell are described in the text of the spell. Most spells select a target only once, when the spell is cast. Some spells select targets at multiple times throughout the spell's duration.

For a spell like Call Lightning, the target for the spell is chosen during casting (the point the effect originates from, 100 feet above you), then another right after (the first Lightning Strike) then again once every turn thereafter as long as you take an action to make it happen. The spell is unquestionably adding additional targets after casting.

Dragon's Breath is no different in this respect: the only difference is that the action being taken to add the additional targets is being taken by a creature other than yourself, which is uninuitive, but the creatures being targeted by the cone effect the targeted creature produces are targets of the spell.

[xyianth]

People keep saying that. I disagree.

The targets of a spell are described in the text of the spell. Most spells select a target only once, when the spell is cast. Some spells select targets at multiple times throughout the spell's duration.

For a spell like Call Lightning, the target for the spell is chosen during casting (the point the effect originates from, 100 feet above you), then another right after (the first Lightning Strike) then again once every turn thereafter as long as you take an action to make it happen. The spell is unquestionably adding additional targets after casting.

Dragon's Breath is no different in this respect: the only difference is that the action being taken to add the additional targets is being taken by a creature other than yourself, which is uninuitive, but the creatures being targeted by the cone effect the targeted creature produces are targets of the spell.

Except the caster isn't even the one adding targets. I fail to see how this spell is any different from Haste. Caster casts the spell to buff an ally, ally gains the effect for a duration. If that ally uses the abilty to attack creatures after the fact of casting, that is not adding targets to the spell.

Now, I accept that JC has ruled that this spell can't be twinned. I think he is wrong about his logic, but I don't play AL so what he says means little to me personally. I just wish that logic was consistent, in my opinion, if Dragon's Breath can't be twinned because the affected ally might attack a target then Haste can't be twinned for the same reason. And yet, Haste is probably one of the most recommended spells for Twin Spell on these forums.

Regardless, the build I posted earlier doesn't actually need Twinned Dragon's Breath, that was merely an idea for where one might extend the build in later levels.

[sophontteks]

I don't get it either. The spell gives a player the ability to breathe fire. The spell is not the firebreathing itself.
Range: touch
Number of targets:The creature you touched.
He really might as well say haste targets every creature a player attacks with that additional action. Its the same twisted backwards logic.

50 bucks says JC wouldn't allow a sorcerer to empower the dragons breath at the same time. He consistently rules in favor of lame when it comes to applying sorcerer metamagics unfortunately.

[Damon_Tor]

Except the caster isn't even the one adding targets.
And yet the spell targets those creatures all the same. They are targets outlined in the description of the spell. Ergo, they are targets of the spell. The fact that those targets are chosen by the first targets rather than by the caster isn't relevant. I'm not sure why people think it is.

[sophontteks]

And yet the spell targets those creatures all the same. They are targets outlined in the description of the spell. Ergo, they are targets of the spell. The fact that those targets are chosen by the first targets rather than by the caster isn't relevant. I'm not sure why people think it is.
The dragon's breath is not a spell, its an ability. The ability is granted by a spell that has a single target.

[Kadesh]

The dragon's breath is not a spell, its an ability. The ability is granted by a spell that has a single target.

This is not something defined in the rules.

[Zalabim]

The dragon's breath is not a spell, its an ability. The ability is granted by a spell that has a single target.

Except it is not an ability, but a spell. The target of Dragon's Breath can use the spell to deal damage to other creatures. It says so right in the text. The spell isn't granting some generic breath ability. The ability to breathe fire or whatever is entirely contained within the spell, which is why it's part of the spell. It is quite unlike Darkvision, Invisibility, or Haste, which all grant things that exist separately from the spell and are understood in the system at large.

My broad description of the principle at work is that a spell's effects end at the end of the spell's description.

[sophontteks]

Except it is not an ability, but a spell. The target of Dragon's Breath can use the spell to deal damage to other creatures. It says so right in the text. The spell isn't granting some generic breath ability. The ability to breathe fire or whatever is entirely contained within the spell, which is why it's part of the spell. It is quite unlike Darkvision, Invisibility, or Haste, which all grant things that exist separately from the spell and are understood in the system at large.

My broad description of the principle at work is that a spell's effects end at the end of the spell's description.
So when you target a player with haste, everything effected by that extra action is a part of the spell as well. Or using enlarge/reduce effects every creature who is dealt the extra 1d4 damage. The extra damage, afterall, is clearly in the spell description.

[Zalabim]

So when you target a player with haste, everything effected by that extra action is a part of the spell as well. Or using enlarge/reduce effects every creature who is dealt the extra 1d4 damage. The extra damage, afterall, is clearly in the spell description.

The creature's attacks with enlarged weapons deal more damage =/= creatures hit by enlarged weapons take more damage. Compare Divine Favor and Hex, for example. Do you actually not understand the difference or are you just being disingenuous?

[Kadesh]

So when you target a player with haste, everything effected by that extra action is a part of the spell as well. Or using enlarge/reduce effects every creature who is dealt the extra 1d4 damage. The extra damage, afterall, is clearly in the spell description.

Yes.Twinned is quite possibly the worst written rule in the game. What's new.