How much is half a million gold?

[EggKookoo]

By the title it might be obvious I'm planning a Waterdeep: Dragon Heist run. I'm trying to figure out how to present the value of 500,000 gold to the players in a way that conveys the amount of wealth it is. I know there are ways to convert a gold piece to a "real world" value but they all make assumptions and I'm not really trying to do that specifically. According to the DMG, 500,000 gold is enough money to build a palace, but palaces vary widely in scope. A "small castle" would cost about 50,000, which suggests half a million is an insane amount of money. It's not clear how much it would cost to build Trollskull Manor but the DMG says 5,000 for a "guildhall" and that seems more or less on the same scale.

Would the possession of 500,000 gold pieces make you Warren Buffett rich? Or Oprah rich (couple billion)? Or "merely" Bill Clinton rich (~75m)? Or less than that even?

[Zanthy1]

I have no direct basis for this, but I've assumed that a copper equals a nickel, a silver equals 50 cents, and a gold equals 5 dollars, thus making 500,000 gold equal 2.5 million dollars.

In more lucrative campaign settings i've upped it to a copper equalling a quarter, thus making a silver equaling $2.50, and a gold equaling $25. Which means you'd have 12.5 million dollars.

Also in super poverty campaigns, where I want the players to know how dirt poor they are and how rich some people are, I don't even make the conversations make sense. A copper equaling 1 cent, a silver equaling a quarter, a gold equalling a dollar. And I like, never give out gold pieces and rarely give out silver. Except for nobles. It does not make sense, but they don't seem to mind/notice

[Hypno]

I think it's comparable to a small nations budget. It's enough to buy 20 warships outright, or enough to outfit a reasonable sized army with solid gear and keep them fed for a while. If I were explaining it to players I'd probably put it in the ballpark of 50 million dollars, though. It's a LOT of money, but not so obscene you can buy whatever you want when you want as often as you want for the rest of your days.

Keeping in mind the PBH says a skilled artsiain can make 1g/per day. A laborer makes 1 silver/per day

[Sigreid]

You could hire one quarter of a million trained and skilled soldiers for one full day.

[Unoriginal]

By the title it might be obvious I'm planning a Waterdeep: Dragon Heist run. I'm trying to figure out how to present the value of 500,000 gold to the players in a way that conveys the amount of wealth it is. I know there are ways to convert a gold piece to a "real world" value but they all make assumptions and I'm not really trying to do that specifically. According to the DMG, 500,000 gold is enough money to build a palace, but palaces vary widely in scope. A "small castle" would cost about 50,000, which suggests half a million is an insane amount of money. It's not clear how much it would cost to build Trollskull Manor but the DMG says 5,000 for a "guildhall" and that seems more or less on the same scale.

Would the possession of 500,000 gold pieces make you Warren Buffett rich? Or Oprah rich (couple billion)? Or "merely" Bill Clinton rich (~75m)? Or less than that even?

It makes you damn crazy rich, but not the richest.

To put this into perspective: With that money, you could give 2 silver coins to every single of the 2 millions of Waterdeep inhabitants, and you'd still have enough money to build yourself TWO small castles.

To put it in more perspective:

The Cassalanters, who are both one of the richest noble family and richest money lenders in Waterdeep right now, COULD pay 1 million of gold coins, but it would basically bankrupt them to do so. So it could be said half a million is basically the setting's equivalent of half the total wealth of one of the richest banking families in New York nowadays. Not in term of what you can do with it, but how much money people in-story would perceive it as.

You could also tell your players it's enough to pay for the salary of 6850 minimum wage workers for one year.

[EggKookoo]

Keeping in mind the PBH says a skilled artsiain can make 1g/per day. A laborer makes 1 silver/per day

Ok, right, this is interesting. Let's say a "skilled artisan" pulls down an equivalent salary of $100k (purely arbitrary but I'm roughly doubling the U.S. median). That equates to about $48/hour, or about $384 a day. Using that approach, 500,000 dragons is $192m. Obviously tons of assumptions here (salary, hours worked per day) but if I say it's the equivalent of "a couple hundred million" that sounds like a lot of money that also wouldn't be economy-breaking.

By way of comparison, that's roughly the 2017 GPD of Peru, Greece, or Iraq. Or 1/10 the revenue of Infinity War (what a weird world we live in).

[Unoriginal]

Ok, right, this is interesting. Let's say a "skilled artisan" pulls down an equivalent salary of $100k (purely arbitrary but I'm roughly doubling the U.S. median). That equates to about $48/hour, or about $384 a day. Using that approach, 500,000 dragons is $192m. Obviously tons of assumptions here (salary, hours worked per day) but if I say it's the equivalent of "a couple hundred million" that sounds like a lot of money that also wouldn't be economy-breaking.

By way of comparison, that's roughly the 2017 GPD of Peru, Greece, or Iraq. Or 1/10 the revenue of Infinity War (what a weird world we live in).

A skilled artisan has for salary 2 gp a day, but it cost 1 gp a day to have modest living conditions. 2 gp is comfortable living conditions.

Another way to put things in perspective: 500'000 gp is enough to let one person live an aristocratic lifestyle, without working one day, for 342 and 1/2 years

Or put another way, you could make a group of 5 live like aristocrats for more than 60 years.

[nickl_2000]

The average tradesman makes 2gp per day (730 per year). The average plumber, according to google make about $50,000 per year.
So, with that very, very rough estimate 1 GP is worth $68.49 American Dollars.
Then 500,000*68.49 ~= $34,246,575 million

So there you go, it ends up being about 34 million US dollars.

[EggKookoo]

Another way to put things in perspective: 500'000 gp is enough to let one person live an aristocratic lifestyle, without working one day, for 342 and 1/2 years

Going with my rough calc of $200m, that works out to an equivalent annual income of about $585k. I don't know about you but I would be able to live pretty "aristocratically" with that. So it's looking like "a couple hundred million dollars" works as a basic description.

[JackPhoenix]

Keeping in mind the PBH says a skilled artsiain can make 1g/per day. A laborer makes 1 silver/per day

PHB says skilled hireling costs 2 gp/day and unskilled 2 sp/day.

There's no real way to translate that to real money, because the relative value of currency and various objects and services is different in D&D than in real world.

[Unoriginal]

PHB says skilled hireling costs 2 gp/day and unskilled 2 sp/day.

There's no real way to translate that to real money, because the relative value of currency and various objects and services is different in D&D than in real world.

I'd say a couple hundreds of millions is a good estimation, though. Not *billionaire* but still pretty up there.

[the_brazenburn]

Enough to buy half a million goats.

'Nuff said (at least for my party).

On a more serious note, imagine buying up the entire Sword Coast's supply of saffron (or other rare and highly valued good) from different merchants at low (ish) prices, then cornering the market and driving prices way up.

Become Waterdeep's own J.P. Morgan, folks!

[hymer]

Enough to buy half a million goats.
That's what I call style.

As to the OP: A skilled hireling is 2gp according to my PHB (and an unskilled one is 2sp; I've seen other numbers in the thread). So it means that a good craftsperson could work every day of the week, every week of the year, and it would take more than 684 years to make that much money. It is well more money than 70 lifetimes' worth of earnings for most middleclass people.

[WilliamHuggins]

Using a skilled masons yearly wage in 1350s England (~6 pounds) and using a currency converter it amounts to 7500$ today, if a skilled craftsman makes 770 gold a year, that would make 1 gold worth about 10$ today, so 500k gold be worth 5m$.

[KorvinStarmast]

The average tradesman makes 2gp per day (730 per year). The average plumber, according to google make about $50,000 per year.
So, with that very, very rough estimate 1 GP is worth $68.49 American Dollars.
Then 500,000*68.49 ~= $34,246,575 million

So there you go, it ends up being about 34 million US dollars. I like this answer best of all, but all of them are decent.

[Knaight]

By way of comparison, that's roughly the 2017 GPD of Peru, Greece, or Iraq. Or 1/10 the revenue of Infinity War (what a weird world we live in).

I have no idea where you're getting GDP data - I checked that because it sounded off, and according to the world bank these are the numbers, benchmarked to your 192 million figure.
Peru GDP: 211.4 Billion (1101 times the heist money)
Greece GDP: 200.3 Billion (1043 times the heist money)
Iraq GDP: 197.7 Billion (1030 times the heist money)

It looks like a confusion between million and billion to me, which doesn't apply to the revenue of infinity war, which, using your numbers, is about 1% the GDP of any of these countries. Still a lot, but a somewhat more reasonable comparison.

Moving back to the original question - working from artisan wages is one option. Another is to key it to in setting goods. For instance, the PCs could purchase 2,500 elephants. Elephants are notoriously underpriced though, so I'll use a different metric: Ships.

The PCs could afford 20 warships, or 50 sailing ships. That's a respectable military fleet, or a downright incredible merchant fleet with warships there for protection. The PCs could retire to a life as merchant princes.

[Joe the Rat]

I default to staples when I try to convert. For example, bread. According to the PHB, a loaf of bread costs 2cp. I can find bread loaf prices from the mid $.70s upward. I'm going cheaper and say $2 per loaf - giving a copper the buying power of a dollar.

Now that means we have some pretty expensive Adventuring gear - most of the kits are running $1,000-$1,200, A good longsword $1,500, a military grade (martial) heavy crossbow or longbow $5,000. And paper is crazy expensive... And a bit of a niche luxury good.

If that seems high, cut the equation appropriately (I might go down by half)... But keep in mind you are pricing for high quality, fight capable weapons, not whatever the hell it is they're selling at the knife store in the mall.

My ballpark puts it to $25-50 million depending on adjustments.

Nickl's plumber-based calculation falls inside there, so that gives us two methods in the same neighborhood. (Multiple models gets you better results)

[EggKookoo]

I like this answer best of all, but all of them are decent.

I'm mostly curious how 500,000 gp feels in a relative sense, rather than trying to tie it to real world money. It sounds like 500,000 gp is enough to easily set you up for life a few times over, but not enough for you to, say, buy and sell wholesale chunks of the city.

You might, for example, head out of Waterdeep and find some town somewhere and basically buy it (meaning buy enough property and into enough businesses that you end up a de facto mini-king). But it's not enough to give you more than a small place at the very large table of nobles in Waterdeep itself.

[EggKookoo]

I have no idea where you're getting GDP data - I checked that because it sounded off, and according to the world bank these are the numbers, benchmarked to your 192 million figure.
Peru GDP: 211.4 Billion (1101 times the heist money)
Greece GDP: 200.3 Billion (1043 times the heist money)
Iraq GDP: 197.7 Billion (1030 times the heist money)

It looks like a confusion between million and billion to me, which doesn't apply to the revenue of infinity war, which, using your numbers, is about 1% the GDP of any of these countries. Still a lot, but a somewhat more reasonable comparison.

Crap, you're right. I went here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)) and I misread the "MM" part. Sorry about that.

[ArlEammon]

I'm mostly curious how 500,000 gp feels in a relative sense, rather than trying to tie it to real world money. It sounds like 500,000 gp is enough to easily set you up for life a few times over, but not enough for you to, say, buy and sell wholesale chunks of the city.

You might, for example, head out of Waterdeep and find some town somewhere and basically buy it (meaning buy enough property and into enough businesses that you end up a de facto mini-king). But it's not enough to give you more than a small place at the very large table of nobles in Waterdeep itself.

IMHO, the lazy way to do it say 500,000 gold pieces is like 50,000,000 dollars. Sure, there are a lot of people who have much more than that, but 50,000,000 dollars is still a lot to almost everyone. Even billionaires probably wouldn't scoff at 50,000,000 dollars.

[nickl_2000]

I'm mostly curious how 500,000 gp feels in a relative sense, rather than trying to tie it to real world money. It sounds like 500,000 gp is enough to easily set you up for life a few times over, but not enough for you to, say, buy and sell wholesale chunks of the city.

You might, for example, head out of Waterdeep and find some town somewhere and basically buy it (meaning buy enough property and into enough businesses that you end up a de facto mini-king). But it's not enough to give you more than a small place at the very large table of nobles in Waterdeep itself.

Yes, you could certainly take that cash, buy yourself most of a small town's businesses and set up business where you would have a very good income for life and not have to work ever again if you didn't want to.

[Jorgo]

Based somewhat on real-world metal values, I have found that copper is worth about $1, silver is worth 10, and gold is worth a whopping 100$. This would make 500000 gp worth about FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. Sometimes this conversion becomes too lucrative, but I find it appropriately values the more expensive items (plate mail for $150000, a warhorse for $40000.)

[Ninja_Prawn]

(Multiple models gets you better results)

In that spirit, I did some calculations based on the prices of gold and silver as commodities a while back* (comparing to the trade bars in the PHB), and came out with 1gp equal to about £200.

*Like, three years ago. Commodity prices may have changed since then.

So 1/2 million gp is a huge amount of money. Enough to buy the most luxurious mansion in the most fashionable neighbourhood of Waterdeep, for example. It's more than the annual operating budget of my employer (which is an amalgamation of what used to be three departments of the Scottish government. Small departments, to be sure, but still). But it's a long way away from 'all the money in the world'.

[EggKookoo]

Based somewhat on real-world metal values, I have found that copper is worth about $1, silver is worth 10, and gold is worth a whopping 100$. This would make 500000 gp worth about FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. Sometimes this conversion becomes too lucrative, but I find it appropriately values the more expensive items (plate mail for $150000, a warhorse for $40000.)

It all depends on your sources. The PHB (or DMG?) says a gold coin is 1/3oz. Right now gold is ~$1,200/oz, so a gold coin is ~$400. This gets you to $200m for the 500,000 gp.

Of course this means a suit of non-magical plate is the equivalent of $600k, which is surely too high. But if you imagine a gold coin in D&D is maybe only 25% gold, you get down to $150k for that armor and 500,000 gp works back down to your $50m.

So yeah, I'm basically agreeing here... :smallsmile:

[ArlEammon]

It all depends on your sources. The PHB (or DMG?) says a gold coin is 1/3oz. Right now gold is ~$1,200/oz, so a gold coin is ~$400. This gets you to $200m for the 500,000 gp.

Of course this means a suit of non-magical plate is the equivalent of $600k, which is surely too high. But if you imagine a gold coin in D&D is maybe only 25% gold, you get down to $150k for that armor and 500,000 gp works back down to your $50m.

So yeah, I'm basically agreeing here... :smallsmile:

Wow. That was a real lucky guess I just pulled off the top of my head for no reason for.

[EggKookoo]

Wow. That was a real lucky guess I just pulled off the top of my head for no reason for.

Right?

The more I think about it, the more I like the $50m value. It's high enough to be something tempting to the elites, but not so high that it would propel the players way too high.

...in the end they'd get at most 10% of it, and that divided up among the party.

[Sigreid]

Enough to purchase the food production means for an entire region and start your dark reign!

[nickl_2000]

Enough to purchase the food production means for an entire region and start your dark reign!

Don't do that, a single 5th level Druid can cast the spell Plant Growth repeatedly a few miles away from you and plunge the value of your crops to near nothing. You really need more of a vertical monopoly to truly be able to start a dark reign.

[Sigreid]

Don't do that, a single 5th level Druid can cast the spell Plant Growth repeatedly a few miles away from you and plunge the value of your crops to near nothing. You really need more of a vertical monopoly to truly be able to start a dark reign.

Campaign dependent. In my current one magic is something people know exists but most have never actually seen.

[EggKookoo]

Don't do that, a single 5th level Druid can cast the spell Plant Growth repeatedly a few miles away from you and plunge the value of your crops to near nothing. You really need more of a vertical monopoly to truly be able to start a dark reign.

Some races are proficient in starting dim reigns.

[Ninja_Prawn]

purchase the food production means

But comrade, you don't need any gold if you seize the means of production!

[Sigreid]

But comrade, you don't need any gold if you seize the means of production!

You need gold to seize the production.

[nickl_2000]

You need gold to seize the production.

Did this thread just go out into a "How to become and evil overlord" tangent?

[Sigreid]

Did this thread just go out into a "How to become and evil overlord" tangent?

I was more of going for "it's enough gold to become an evil overlord" vibe.

[EggKookoo]

I was more of going for "it's enough gold to become an evil overlord" vibe.

Or at least an evil landlord.

[hymer]

Or at least an evil landlord.
I'm not sure you need to specify 'evil' in that context. :smallbiggrin:

[Sigreid]

It is also enough gold to get unwanted attention from the king as deep pockets waiting to be tapped.

[Unoriginal]

It is also enough gold to get unwanted attention from the king as deep pockets waiting to be tapped.

Given that it's the city's money that was embezzled and hidden away...

[Laserlight]

Did this thread just go out into a "How to become an evil overlord" tangent?

"How to become an Evil Overlord" is always on topic.

I concur with 1gp = about $100

$50 million, invested fairly conservatively, should give you a gross income somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.5 million year, without touching the principal.

It's also 1000lb, assuming it's all standard gold coin. Get a wheelbarrow.

edit: Dropped a decimal; fortunately they're not as sharp as Legos or d4s. Make that 500,000gp at 50gp/lb = 10,000lb. Get a LOT of wheelbarrows.

[EggKookoo]

It's also 1000lb, assuming it's all standard gold coin. Get a wheelbarrow.

Or five adventurers with an average STR of 13.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Or a moneychanger who can convert it into something with a better value/weight ratio...

[Knaight]

Or five adventurers with an average STR of 13.

Who are carrying nothing else - this plan has holes.

[EggKookoo]

Who are carrying nothing else - this plan has holes.

Well, also, I think 500,000 gold coins is more like 10,000 lbs, not 1,000 lbs.

We're gonna need a bigger party.

[Unoriginal]

Well, also, I think 500,000 gold coins is more like 10,000 lbs, not 1,000 lbs.

We're gonna need a bigger party.

A little party never killed nobody.

[Lunali]

Well, also, I think 500,000 gold coins is more like 10,000 lbs, not 1,000 lbs.

We're gonna need a bigger party.

Just need 20 bags of holding.

[stoutstien]

Well about 166,666 pigs

[JellyPooga]

For all those quoting the number of warships that much moolah could buy, does that account for outfitting and crewing those ships too? I mean, buying a ship is one thing, but hiring crew (which probably includes giring someone to do the hiring) and laying in rations, repair materials, spare sails, armaments and so forth, not to mention that some of the crew are going to require varying pay grades (the Captain, Navigator, Master of Arms, etc. are going to want higher wages than your average Crewman), luxuries for the officers and passengers, cargo (if any; depends on the purpose of the ship, I guess; for a Warship, the cargo is presumably "soldiers", who will also want paying, outfitting, arming and feeding). The "buy cost" of a Warship is, I suspect, small compared to its actual running cost over its useful lifespan. A ship is not an non-perishable commodity; it's a business investment.

Let's look at some numbers;

Warship: 25,000gp
- Crew:
- 60 unskilled x 1sp/day = 6gp/day
- 10 skilled x 2sp/day = 2gp/day
- 10 highly skilled (average) x 2gp/day = 20gp/day
- Cargo of 100 (crappy) soldiers x 1gp/day = 100gp/day
- Rations for 180 men x 5sp/day = 90gp/day

Before looking at spares, weaponry and other running costs (docking fees, etc.), that's 218gp/day. For ease sake and to account for some of those other running costs, let's round uo to 220/day. Multiply by 30 for a month = 6,600gp/month. x12 for a year comes to roughly 80,000gp/year running cost; just over three times the purchase price.

In short; to buy, outfit and run a single Warship for six months is going to cost you about 75,000gp. With a cool half-million gp, you can buy yourself 5 or 6 Warships, including around a thousand (mostly not very useful) men and soldiers, fed and equipped for six months of active duty and you'll probably have a little change left over. 500,00gp is enough for a decently sized rading force, but certainly not enough to conduct a war or stage a coup without other factors being significantly advantageous.

[Knaight]

In short; to buy, outfit and run a single Warship for six months is going to cost you about 75,000gp. With a cool half-million gp, you can buy yourself 5 or 6 Warships, including around a thousand (mostly not very useful) men and soldiers, fed and equipped for six months of active duty and you'll probably have a little change left over. 500,00gp is enough for a decently sized rading force, but certainly not enough to conduct a war or stage a coup without other factors being significantly advantageous.

No. However those costs require assuming that the warships aren't making money themselves (which, for that raiding force is literally the point), that you can't get sailors for future loot shares (again, standard for a raiding force), and other such things. A similar point applies to merchant ships and being able to haul other people's cargo.

[JellyPooga]

No. However those costs require assuming that the warships aren't making money themselves (which, for that raiding force is literally the point), that you can't get sailors for future loot shares (again, standard for a raiding force), and other such things. A similar point applies to merchant ships and being able to haul other people's cargo.

Indeed. But the initial outlay must be there and no raid or merchant venture is guaranteed to turn a profit. 20 Warships or 50 Merchant ships may be a fleet, but when that's all you can afford up front, it's just a very large decoration taking up a lot of docking space. As I said, buying a ship is more akin to investing in a business; yes it can make you more money back, but for it to do that you need to put more money in than just the purchase price. In terms of useful buying power, half-a-million gp can't really buy a fleet of 20 Warships that can go invade a small country. It buys you five or so; enough to get yourself noticed and maybe start working your way up to a larger fleet if that's your goal.

Don't get me wrong, 5 fully crewed Warships and 500 fighting men paid for and fed for 6 months is a significant thing that will probably rake in cash over those 6 months (you'd better hope so after investing that much money!), but it's a better indication of just what 500,00gp actually buys you than looking solely at the purchase price.

[Randomthom]

It's enough that Adventurers would most likely retire...