What Counters Disengage?

[Gale]

I was thinking about the Disengage action recently, and I fumbled into an interesting hypothetical that I didn't have an answer for.

Two characters are fighting with melee weapons, longswords specifically. Adrik the Dwarf is clearly the superior fighter and easily injures Bob the Human down to a single hit point. Seeing his defeat is imminent, Bob chooses to disengage on his turn and runaway. Bob manages to outpace Adrik with his superior movement speed. (30 ft. vs 25 ft.) In order to chase Bob down Adrik's use the Dash action and runs directly in front of him, cutting off his escape. Bob then turns around, disengages, and runs in the other direction. Adrik gives chase once more, using another Dash to catch up to him. This process repeats indefinitely because Bob cannot truly outrun Adrik, and Adrik can't get in range to attack Bob in a single turn.

It's a silly scenario, but I can't find any way for either person to succeed without outside help. Unless of course the Dwarf decides to throw his sword at the Human, but that feels like a desperate measure.

I guess I'm wondering what things can a character do to counter the Disengage action in scenarios like this?

[Lunali]

Hold action to dash when Bob moves at least 10ft farther away from you.

[Speely]

There is no way Adrik doesn't have the Sentinel feat. That ends the battle within a couple rounds.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Sentinel feat.

[Speely]

Also: When does a fight like this ever happen? More often than not, one is either fighting multiple enemies or enemies with ranged options. D&D is balanced around group vs group, not hypothetical duels.

I cannot imagine a situation where this would ever happen.

[Haldir]

given how OA works in this system and how "sticky" combat is, you really don't want a counter to disengage. you need disengage to not make moving in combat godawful.

A feat tax for that is an appropriate cost I think.

[Crgaston]

given how OA works in this system and how "sticky" combat is, you really don't want a counter to disengage. you need disengage to not make moving in combat godawful.

A feat tax for that is an appropriate cost I think.

I feel like it's kind of the opposite. Once you start fighting enemies with multiple attacks, it's usually better to take the OA (1 attack only) rather than stay in and take another full attack sequence.

[Lunali]

I feel like it's kind of the opposite. Once you start fighting enemies with multiple attacks, it's usually better to take the OA (1 attack only) rather than stay in and take another full attack sequence.

If it were just a choice between OA and the full attack that'd be an easy choice, but usually it's a choice between full attack, possibly on you, and OA+full attack on someone else.

[Laserlight]

Hold action to dash when Bob moves at least 10ft farther away from you.

I'm not sure about this but I don't think that would work. Al has to use his Reaction when Bob triggers the Ready Action, therefore it's not available for OA when Bob continues moving, right?

[Rynjin]

It's almost like removing the Charge action was a bad idea.

[dragoeniex]

Throw things.

[Lunali]

I'm not sure about this but I don't think that would work. Al has to use his Reaction when Bob triggers the Ready Action, therefore it's not available for OA when Bob continues moving, right?

Right, forgot Bob wouldn't have to disengage because of that and would be able to dash.

[Galithar]

The best way to counter disengage is to grapple I think. That has to be put in place before you know your opponents is going to attempt to move though. It's hard to disengage and runaway with a movement speed of 0 though!!

[Crgaston]

If it were just a choice between OA and the full attack that'd be an easy choice, but usually it's a choice between full attack, possibly on you, and OA+full attack on someone else.


Very true. Which is why at my current table that has usually been when the archer Ranger runs in and gets into melee with the enemy for a round or two while the injured one heals up or switches to ranged.

[Greywander]

The best way to counter disengage is to grapple I think. That has to be put in place before you know your opponents is going to attempt to move though. It's hard to disengage and runaway with a movement speed of 0 though!!
This makes a good case for a melee character using a one-handed weapon with the other empty. Grapple and stab. It takes an action to break free, so they can't Disengage on the same turn they break free. Although shoving is almost always better than trying to break out of a grapple, as forced movement that pushes them out of reach will also break the grapple, and now you're out of OA range. Playing a bugbear or using a weapon with reach (whip?) can counter this.

[Galithar]

This makes a good case for a melee character using a one-handed weapon with the other empty. Grapple and stab. It takes an action to break free, so they can't Disengage on the same turn they break free. Although shoving is almost always better than trying to break out of a grapple, as forced movement that pushes them out of reach will also break the grapple, and now you're out of OA range. Playing a bugbear or using a weapon with reach (whip?) can counter this.

Or a great case for a Simic Hybrid with grappling appendages, GWM, PAM, and a glaive!

[Mikal]

So I guess neither of these mighty warriors ever heard of ranged weapons, either bows or thrown?

They just scooby doo run around the place until the heat death of the universe instead?

[Nifft]

Throw something at the twitchy bugger.

If he's down to 1 hp, then even an improvised weapon would be sufficient -- but a well-aimed dagger through the throat would be far more stylish.

[DeadMech]

This is why when I make martial character's I buy an assortment of weapons. If Adrik had the foresight to buy a halberd for reach this wouldn't be an issue. But maybe 6lbs is too heavy or the length is too cumbersome to take with you everywhere.

Good news. Javelins are 5sp and only 2 lbs. Or a dagger. What adventurer doesn't have a dagger tucked somewhere? Or maybe even a longbow. Bit pricier but if you miss it has the range to continue peppering away. Not a chance in hell Bob is putting 600' between him and Adrik with only 1 hp left.

Or a sling. It's free. No listed price no listed weight. There is literally no reason for a character to lack a ranged attack. None.

[Malifice]

Action surge (dash + attack), cunning action, Sentinel feat, higher movement speed, ranged or throwing weapons, knock him prone etc.

All of which are features that are built into the chassis of every single non caster martial class.

Monks and Barbarians move fast. Fighters and Rogues get action economy buffs (and extra feats for things like mobility and sentinel).

Paladins and Rangers have magic (compelled duel, longstrider etc).

For all other times, invest in a ranged weapon.


Hold action to dash when Bob moves at least 10ft farther away from you.

Pointless.

Readying an action uses your action on your turn and then your reaction when you react (meaning even if you ready to move up to the fleeing target before or as he runs off, you cant do anything when you get there - including making attacks of opportunity as he walks off - seeing as you've just used your reaction to move up to him).

[Randomthom]

It's at this point that you need to start considering the chase rules from the DMG instead or at least keep track of the number of dashes each has used due to fatigue becoming exhaustion.

[Kadesh]

Pointless.

Readying an action uses your action on your turn and then your reaction when you react (meaning even if you ready to move up to the fleeing target before or as he runs off, you cant do anything when you get there - including making attacks of opportunity as he walks off - seeing as you've just used your reaction to move up to him).

Dwarf 1: Attack
Human 1: Disengage
Dwarf 2: Dash
Human 1: Disengage... Ad infinitum

Dwarf 1: "Attack
Human 1: disengage
Dwarf 2: Ready Action to move next to fighter when he stops moving (including staying still)
Human 2: stays still/moves
Dwarf 2r: moves closer
Dwarf 3:*moves, attacks

Of course, nothing to prevent the human dashing away turn 2 or using ranged attacks.

[Pelle]

Dwarf 2: Ready Action to move next to fighter when he stops moving (including staying still)


Is this a valid trigger? In the fiction, the human likely doesn't stop moving even though his turn ends. He is still trying to run away, and the dwarf is presumably following right behind.

If the combat rules produce nonsensical results, just don't apply the combat rules to the situation...

[Lombra]

The dwarf follows, readies a dash action, the human keeps running, the dwarf dashes as a reaction and ends up 10ft behind the human, during the dwarf's turn he moves 10ft and strikes down the human. Repeat until the human dies.

[JackPhoenix]

The dwarf follows, readies a dash action, the human keeps running, the dwarf dashes as a reaction and ends up 10ft behind the human, during the dwarf's turn he moves 10ft and strikes down the human. Repeat until the human dies.

Readying Dash action does exactly nothing. Dash increases your movement in the current turn, it doesn't allow you to move in itself. Using Dash off-turn increases your movement, but you're unable to use it.

And if the dwarf gives the human some distance at the end of his turn, the human doesn't need to spend his action on Disengage, but can also Dash. Which combined with his higher speed means the dwarf will never catch up with him again.

[Kadesh]

Is this a valid trigger? In the fiction, the human likely doesn't stop moving even though his turn ends. He is still trying to run away, and the dwarf is presumably following right behind.

If the combat rules produce nonsensical results, just don't apply the combat rules to the situation...
Fair point, but the same thought process should have allowed you to extrapolate it to 'when he extends past a specific range'.
Readying Dash action does exactly nothing. Dash increases your movement in the current turn, it doesn't allow you to move in itself. Using Dash off-turn increases your movement, but you're unable to use it.

And if the dwarf gives the human some distance at the end of his turn, the human doesn't need to spend his action on Disengage, but can also Dash. Which combined with his higher speed means the dwarf will never catch up with him again.

Short term notification, you can ready action move.

[Xihirli]

Carry Javelins.

[dmteeter]

Bob just waits until the dwarf dashes himself into exhaustion. Then he just casually runs away or turns and kills the exhausted dwarf.

[Mikal]

Bob just waits until the dwarf dashes himself into exhaustion. Then he just casually runs away or turns and kills the exhausted dwarf.

Except that the dwarven superior constitution allows the dwarf to keep pace even with dashing, until the human tires out and gets finished off, especially as he's already been sorely wounded.

Or you know, we use RAW answers instead of things pulled out of our behinds.

[JackPhoenix]

Except that the dwarven superior constitution allows the dwarf to keep pace even with dashing, until the human tires out and gets finished off, especially as he's already been sorely wounded.

Or you know, we use RAW answers instead of things pulled out of our behinds.

The human doesn't need to use Dash, as he's faster, and doesn't need to make the Con checks in the first place, thus never risks exhaustion. Perfectly RAW by chase rules from DMG.

[MadBear]

I mean, assuming the character has none of the features available that others have said, as a DM, I'd probably start making contested athletics checks at some point. Because after 10-20 rounds (1-2 minutes) of sprinting, those characters are going to get tired. At some point one of them is going to slow down enough for either:

1. Bob to get away
2. Bob to be stabbed horribly to death

But of course, this would only happen when it became apparent there was no other way to resolve this (which others have already gone over in great detail).

[Mikal]

The human doesn't need to use Dash, as he's faster, and doesn't need to make the Con checks in the first place, thus never risks exhaustion. Perfectly RAW by chase rules from DMG.

If people use that option, which many don't.

[Kadesh]

If the human never dashes he is caught every second turn.

[Tanarii]

The human doesn't need to use Dash, as he's faster, and doesn't need to make the Con checks in the first place, thus never risks exhaustion. Perfectly RAW by chase rules from DMG.Yup. Let's use the RAW rules before pulling answers out of behinds. :smallamused:

[JackPhoenix]

If people use that option, which many don't.

And if they don't, the chase will last forever (well, not really), as the dwarf can never catch the human, the human can't ever escape from the dwarf, neither will take any exhaustion penalties by RAW untill they miss their next long rest, in which case they'll both get the exhaustion penalty at the same time, meaning the situation won't change. That'll will continue until they reach 5 levels of exhaustion, when their movement speed gets lowered to 0, they can't chase each other anymore, they'll take a long rest and the human will get back to full HP, allowing him to take the one opportunity attack from the dwarf and just run away.


If the human never dashes he is caught every second turn.

That doesn't really matter, as the dwarf doesn't have action free to attack the human (and for some reason won't just throw his weapon) and the human will continue Disengaging to avoid OA... see OP.

Edit: actually, the human will escape if chase rules get used, as chase rules don't allow opportunity attacks, allowing him to Dash and use his better speed to increase the distance between them.

[Kadesh]

? I'm not sure you understand. Do you believe the Ready Action movement is not a thing? Because while I'm AFB I seriously suggest you go check it up until I can.

Ready Action movement can still occur.

Chase rules end when the human is caught. If the human is in a stage to be taking opportunity attacks, they are caught and chase rules end.

Come on mate. Youre better than this.

[JackPhoenix]

? I'm not sure you understand. Do you believe the Ready Action movement is not a thing? Because while I'm AFB I seriously suggest you go check it up until I can.

Ready Action movement can still occur.

And what good will that ready action makes for the dwarf? If he's not next to the human at the end of his turn (which he won't if he uses his action to Ready movement instead of Dash, as he's slower and needs to use his action to get extra movement to catch up with him), the human will use Dash instead of disengage and escape.

Human and dwarf starts adjecent to each other.
Human disengage and moves 30', there's now 30' between the human and the dwarf
Dwarf moves 25', there's now 5' between the human and the dwarf. Dwarf uses Ready to move next to the human when he stops moving.
Human, not being in the dwarf's reach, uses Dash to move 60'. The dwarf uses his reaction to move 25' when the human stops moving. There's now 40' between the human and the dwarf.
Dwarf either Dash to catch up with the human, meaning they end up where they began, or let the human increase the distance between them again.


Chase rules end when the human is caught. If the human is in a stage to be taking opportunity attacks, they are caught and chase rules end.

Which won't actually happen under chase rules, as the human is faster than the dwarf and will continue increasing the distance enough to get away.

[Glorthindel]

Incidentally, me and a couple of friends pulled this trick in a tournament game years ago - another player (playing a Halfling Fighter) picked up a cursed Berserker Sword at the conclusion of the adventure. Me and my friends, all playing Humans and Elves, just kept doing a Benny Hill routine around a circular bit of dungeon corridor until the Halfling collapsed from fatigue, and kicked the sword out of his hand while he was unconscious.

The Halfling's player was stunned; the people he had played with the day before had been a pack of backstabbing murder-hobos, and he fully expected to get callously executed by the rest of us, and was overjoyed to find people taking non-bloodthirsty solution.

[ThePolarBear]

I guess I'm wondering what things can a character do to counter the Disengage action in scenarios like this?

Ready action: I move in pursuit as soon as he is farther away than 25ft from me.

Result: Human moves, and either remains close enough to reach next turn, or triggers the ready action. Since the Human has to disengage or trigger an OA, and assuming no possibility to BA Dash or something like that, the Dwarf will always be in range, during their turn, to reach and strike.

Edit: I mean, in the "long" run the human is possibly going to run away. But it's going to eat at least some attacks.

Nope, forgot the reaction is used.

[Justin Sane]

Ready action: I move in pursuit as soon as he is farther away than 25ft from me.

Result: Human moves, and either remains close enough to reach next turn, or triggers the ready action. Since the Human has to disengage or trigger an OA, and assuming no possibility to BA Dash or something like that, the Dwarf will always be in range, during their turn, to reach and strike.If the Dwarf uses his reaction to actually trigger the move, then he has no reaction left for an OA.

[ThePolarBear]

If the Dwarf uses his reaction to actually trigger the move, then he has no reaction left for an OA.

Yep, noticed just before refreshing.

[Tanarii]

If the Dwarf uses his reaction to actually trigger the move, then he has no reaction left for an OA.
The dwarf can chose to either use their reaction for the Ready action or for the OA at the time the human moves.

Of course, if the Human Dashes in response to a (IMO visible in-game) Ready action, and the Dwarf takes the OA instead of moving, the Human just escaped for a single OA.

[Kadesh]

If the Dwarf uses his reaction to actually trigger the move, then he has no reaction left for an OA.

He then moves on his next turn, catches up and attacks.

[JackPhoenix]

Repeating this, because people apparently missed in the spoiler:

Human and dwarf starts adjecent to each other.
Human disengage and moves 30', there's now 30' between the human and the dwarf
Dwarf moves 25', there's now 5' between the human and the dwarf. Dwarf uses Ready to move next to the human when he stops moving.
Human, not being in the dwarf's reach, uses Dash to move 60'. The dwarf uses his reaction to move 25' when the human stops moving. There's now 40' between the human and the dwarf.
Dwarf either Dash to catch up with the human, meaning they end up where they began, or let the human increase the distance between them again.

Readying movement is useless.

[TIPOT]

I can't exactly fault the idea that in a straight line dash a human can run away from a dwarf, but I mean does that actually matter? It seems pretty fair and not exploitable except in a featureless room scenario.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. "Slow people are slower than fast people" is about the extent of the overall issue. It's not directly related to Disengage, really. It's about as much of a problem in the situation as the fact that Dwarves are slower by 17%.

On a side note, this is exactly the situation that benefits Drunken Master monks, Swashbuckler rogues, or characters with the Mobile feat; abusing high mobility while avoiding melee combat is good. It's not overpowered because there's more to the game than just 1-on-1 melee combat and Speed.

[stoutstien]

Just ready action to attack when target moves away. disengage prevents attack of opportunity only.

[JackPhoenix]

Just ready action to attack when target moves away. disengage prevents attack of opportunity only.

If you're in a situation when that is an option, you can also just attack outright. That won't happen, because the dwarf would both need to be adjecent to the human (which won't happen unless the dwarf takes Dash action to reach the human before the end of his turn) and have the action to make the attack (which won't happen, because he already had to use the action to catch up with the human)

[ThePolarBear]

The human doesn't need to use Dash, as he's faster, and doesn't need to make the Con checks in the first place, thus never risks exhaustion. Perfectly RAW by chase rules from DMG.

Just one thing: in a chase the human will need to dash, otherwise the dwarf will be in reach to catch, ending the chase.

[JackPhoenix]

Just one thing: in a chase the human will need to dash, otherwise the dwarf will be in reach to catch, ending the chase.

Yep, noticed and answered that in the later post. The human won't need to Disengage in chase (no OAs), so he can use Dash instead to use his better speed to escape from the dwarf. It's a no-win scenario for the dwarf, really, unless he can use the terrain to corner the human. Either the human escapes through chase, or they end up in a stalemate.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yep, noticed and answered that in the later post. The human won't need to Disengage in chase (no OAs), so he can use Dash instead to use his better speed to escape from the dwarf. It's a no-win scenario for the dwarf, really, unless he can use the terrain to corner the human. Either the human escapes through chase, or they end up in a stalemate.

The human only has 1 HP left. Run up and throw your weapon, dwarf.

[Kadesh]

The chase ends when OA's become viable. Human can't escape with chase rules, because Exhaustion halving movement at T2 and dropping to 0 afterwards.

Without Chase rules, human escapes only by dashing every action.

[ThePolarBear]

Yep, noticed and answered that in the later post. The human won't need to Disengage in chase (no OAs), so he can use Dash instead to use his better speed to escape from the dwarf. It's a no-win scenario for the dwarf, really, unless he can use the terrain to corner the human. Either the human escapes through chase, or they end up in a stalemate.

That's a big understatement. The dwarf is a better fighter AND has a race that is traditionally more resistent. It is not incorrect to think that, at the very least, the dwarf is more likely to have higher CON than the human, giving more room for number of dashes and a better con saving throw. The human has the advantage of being able, possibly as soon as the first round, to start making throws to see if they manage to hide, thus i think is more likely to have better chances overall to make it out one way or another. But this is without considering possible complications that might arise and might favor one party over the other.
Without knowing the terrain, complications, rolls, statistics, i think it's likely for the human to make it out. But i do not think that it's a flat out no-win situation for the dwarf. The human is clearly playing to its strenght, but it's also leaving himself open to... well... taking a wrong turn in the wrong neighbourhood and be put out of commission by the first thug on the street.

Notice that the first character gaining exaustion is HUGE. 1st level of exaustion makes all ability checks, including those to hide and those to not gain further exaustion, at disadvantage. 2nd level halves speed.
Also, exaustion from dashes in chases lasts only till a short rest, not necessarily a long one.

And ending a chase does need to have a distinct outcome: either the human flees, or the human is "caught". If it means that the dwarf reaches and corners, preventing escape, or punches the human unconscious is up to the DM.Leaving the ability to flee again and cause another chase should be out of the table althogether, tho.

[Ganymede]

Hold action to dash when Bob moves at least 10ft farther away from you.

This does not work as all the Dash action does is increase your movement during the turn. The reaction doesn't actually let you spend any of that movement.

[TIPOT]

This does not work as all the Dash action does is increase your movement during the turn. The reaction doesn't actually let you spend any of that movement.

Whilst you might not be able to dash, the ready action explicitly states choose an action you want to take or choose to move up to your speed (which is clearly what was meant).

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

Being better fighter doesn't necessarily mean he's got better Con... it is likely, but dwarves only have +1 over humans, so the difference isn't that big. Even then, the human gains 10' on the dwarf every turn, which means at least 40' lead before he starts making the checks at all (assumig Con 10, which is unlikely for a fighter), and at least another 10' before his speed gets halved. Now, the better speed offers some advantage: For every 30' of lead, the human can avoid dashing for one round without the fear of the dwarf catching up to him, even assuming he's unable to use the distance to hide from the dwarf. That negates some of the advantage of the dwarf's higher Con, and they'll start to make the checks at the same time. It's not necessarily good idea, as the dwarf still gets better modifier for the check, but it could offer some advantage to the human.

[Ganymede]

(which is clearly what was meant).

You were really like "While my message brings up an interesting point, it isn't nearly snarky enough; let me edit this in there."?

[KorvinStarmast]

There's a feature of Cavalier Fighter sub class, isn't there?

[Astofel]

How about this:
1. Human and dwarf are adjacent to each other
2. Human disengages and moves 30 feet away
3. Dwarf uses his movement to move 25 feet, now there are 5 feet between him and the human
4. Dwarf attacks with his halberd
5. Human dies

[sophontteks]

Welll, I'm a fast person. Have a good fair share of stories about running away.

Went to a heavy metal festival. Let my friend borrow my top hat. I see him later and he's covered in blood with no hat. He was literally mugged and all they wanted was my freaking hat! Through unbelievable luck another friend claims he's found my hat and sure enough the guy who mugged my friend is wearing it while he's chatting with all his buddies. They were brutes too. He was telling me this bs story about his mom giving him that hat and I just stole it and ran. 5-6 people chasing me through the woods. Doesn't matter. I knew I was faster.

What I'm trying to say is that being physically faster then someone is a real big advantage. How do you counter someone faster then you? You don't put yourself in a situation where they can run, because if they can, they will, and there ain't a thing you can do about it.

Heck, even the spartans struggled against slaves wielding rocks and slings just because the slaves were too light and fast for the spartans to catch them.

[MadBear]

I'm still not seeing a problem with a DM just adjudicating this whole issue with a contested check. Because by the rules mechanics, we see a pretty obvious and permanent break down. By the rules, the characters will continue this dance for hours/days until the whole exhaustion mechanic kicks in. But waiting until then is obviously unrealistic and dumb.

Just have a quick contested ability check between the players, roll, and be done with it. Dwarf wins, he caught Bob and butchers him. Bob wins, he wiggles his way out of the dwarf's grasp and is gone.

It's simple, and perfectly within the DM's purview without being stuck in an endless loop.

[Tanarii]

Just have a quick contested ability check between the players, roll, and be done with it. Dwarf wins, he caught Bob and butchers him. Bob wins, he wiggles his way out of the dwarf's grasp and is gone. Because the odds of that happening are incredibly low. Bob has a fantastic chance of outdistancing Dwarf and permanently losing him

I mean, you if you give the Dwarf disadvantage and Bob advantage on a single contested Con check, it might be on par with using the Chase rules.

Edit: otoh I don't feel it's appropriate to use the chase rules when two parties start adjacent, unless the fleeing party is faster and accepts at least a single round of OAs.

[MadBear]

Because the odds of that happening are incredibly low. Bob has a fantastic chance of outdistancing Dwarf and permanently losing him

I mean, you if you give the Dwarf disadvantage and Bob advantage on a single contested Con check, it might be on par with using the Chase rules.

Edit: otoh I don't feel it's appropriate to use the chase rules when two parties start adjacent, unless the fleeing party is faster and accepts at least a single round of OAs.

forgive me if I'm wrong (I very well could be), but isn't the whole point that because Bob is faster, but must always disengage, and the dwarf slower, but can always dash, there isn't any direct mechanical way to end the stalemate?

I guess I'm just talking pragmatically at the table, when this back and forth takes place where there is seemingly no real mechanical way to end this, I'd just have a roll and be done with it. Because, either, bob is going to trip and killed, or bob is going to slowly lose the dwarf.

[Galithar]

You're correct. Mechanically this is the chase that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends. One day we... (You get the idea and I hope it's stuck in your head for at least an hour :P)

But it's also almost impossible to occur mechanically. Neither character has anything to give them a one up? Action surge? Bonus action dash/disengage? The ability to think outside the box to use their sword as an improvised throwing weapon? An ally hiding in the shadows to gank the poor guy chasing you?

In the scenario of these two not being in level playing fields the superior fighting dwarf should have SONETHING to give him a one up. Action surge being the most likely as he only needs to be level 2 for it.

[Mr.Spastic]

All fighter get handaxes. Game Over.

[Malifice]

Dwarf 1: Attack
Human 1: Disengage
Dwarf 2: Dash
Human 1: Disengage... Ad infinitum

Dwarf 1: "Attack
Human 1: disengage
Dwarf 2: Ready Action to move next to fighter when he stops moving (including staying still)
Human 2: stays still/moves
Dwarf 2r: moves closer
Dwarf 3:*moves, attacks

Of course, nothing to prevent the human dashing away turn 2 or using ranged attacks.

That doesnt work in this instance.

The Dwarf attacks the Human Fighter and knocks him down to 1 HP.

The Human Fighter disengages and moves away 30'.

The Dwarf (on his turn) moves 25' and Readies an action to move as close to the Fighter as he can, if the Fighter moves out of his current space.

The Fighter (on his turn) Dashes, and moves 60' away.

The Dwarf then uses his reaction and walks 25' closer to the Fighter. The Fighter is now 40' away.

It's now the Dwarf's turn. He uses his movement on his turn to walk a further 25'. He is still 15' away.


The Dwarf needs:

Action surge (dash and attack)
A movement speed at least =to the Human Fighters.
Charger feat
Sentinel feat
Mobile combatant feat
A ranged or thrown weapon

[Kadesh]

Always said if the fighter just dashes he's escaped. But then chase exhaustion means he's more likely to get caught.

[MadBear]

So in this case, the dwarf really can't ready an action, because that'll allow Bob to dash, which would end the chase as the dwarf will slowly be outpaced. Instead, he should just always immediately dash so that they're standing by Bob at the end of every turn, which will force Bob to always have to use the disengage action.

Which again just leads to a perpetual neverending chase. (albeit an unrealistic one, that's a super edge case)

[ThePolarBear]

which would end the chase as the dwarf will slowly be outpaced. Instead, he should just always immediately dash so that they're standing by Bob at the end of every turn, which will force Bob to always have to use the disengage action.

Which again just leads to a perpetual neverending chase. (albeit an unrealistic one, that's a super edge case)

No. Being outpaced doesn't end the chase. Losing the pursuers end the chase, and there are rules to check when that happens. In the chase there aren't any OoAs between quarry and pursuers, too, because the action is supposed to be continuous(you are never 30', 60', whatever apart, you are always in the same situation as the end round. It's, more or less, a question of gaining or losing from a starting distance.)

If you use the chase rules what makes or breaks the chase is the ability and possibility of the human of gaining enough distance to be out of sight, thus being able to make an attempt at hiding, while outlasting the dwarf, while for the dwarf the ability to stay as close as possible to the human, either attempting at finishing them with ranged attacks or counting on luck, endurance and accidents to make the chase end before he gets to tired to go on.

All done while avoiding complications that, at least in the stated examples, have a chance of completely turning the tables and end a chase in and of themselves.

I'm more and more convinced than this, in particular, could be a nice situation to handle as a "chase", rules wise. The human wants to flee, the dwarf wants to catch them.

[Kadesh]

So in this case, the dwarf really can't ready an action, because that'll allow Bob to dash, which would end the chase as the dwarf will slowly be outpaced. Instead, he should just always immediately dash so that they're standing by Bob at the end of every turn, which will force Bob to always have to use the disengage action.

Which again just leads to a perpetual neverending chase. (albeit an unrealistic one, that's a super edge case)

The dwarf readying an action to dash occurs once the disengage has already happened, though.

[dmteeter]

Except that the dwarven superior constitution allows the dwarf to keep pace even with dashing, until the human tires out and gets finished off, especially as he's already been sorely wounded.

Or you know, we use RAW answers instead of things pulled out of our behinds.

What exactly was pulled from my behind?

I'm away from my books atm but i'm fairly certain that there is a limit to how many dash actions you can take in a row before exhaustion kicks in......

[dmteeter]

During the chase, a participant can freely use the Dash action a number of times equal to 3 + its Constitution modifier. Each additional Dash action it takes during the chase requires the creature to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution check at the end of its turn or gain one level of exhaustion

[JackPhoenix]

The dwarf readying an action to dash occurs once the disengage has already happened, though.

It does not. Again, because 3 times is apparently not enough for some people to understand:

Human and dwarf starts adjecent to each other.
Human disengage and moves 30', there's now 30' between the human and the dwarf
Dwarf moves 25', there's now 5' between the human and the dwarf. Dwarf uses Ready to move next to the human when he stops moving.
Human, not being in the dwarf's reach, uses Dash to move 60'. The dwarf uses his reaction to move 25' when the human stops moving. There's now 40' between the human and the dwarf.
Dwarf either Dash to catch up with the human, meaning they end up where they began, or let the human increase the distance between them again.

[dmteeter]

It does not. Again, because 3 times is apparently not enough for some people to understand:

Human and dwarf starts adjecent to each other.
Human disengage and moves 30', there's now 30' between the human and the dwarf
Dwarf moves 25', there's now 5' between the human and the dwarf. Dwarf uses Ready to move next to the human when he stops moving.
Human, not being in the dwarf's reach, uses Dash to move 60'. The dwarf uses his reaction to move 25' when the human stops moving. There's now 40' between the human and the dwarf.
Dwarf either Dash to catch up with the human, meaning they end up where they began, or let the human increase the distance between them again.

They don't seem to understand that readying a move action doesn't allow you to move twice

[Floogal]

When the dwarf dashes up to the human, he positions himself such that the human gets herded in a certain direction. If the human doesn't disengage directly away from the dwarf, the dwarf can catch up without dashing.

Eventually the group will reach difficult terrain or other obstructions that prevents the human from moving a full 30 feet away, and the dwarf can hit him. Depending on circumstances, the dwarf may want to ready an action to attack whenever the human is in range, and simply move 25 feet toward him per round, terminator-like.

[Kadesh]

They don't seem to understand that readying a move action doesn't allow you to move twiceExcept it does, explicitly.

[JackPhoenix]

They don't seem to understand that readying a move action doesn't allow you to move twice

Propably because they think they can ready Dash instead of movement. Dash only grants you extra movement on the turn it was used, but it doesn't allow you to move off-turn in itself. I'm sure there could be some niche use for getting extra movement when it's not your turn, but all abilities I can think of that give you out of turn movement (OoV's Relentless Avenger, BM's Maneuvering Attack, Scout's Skirmisher, Dissonant Whispers) already cost you your reaction, so you can't trigger the readied action at the same time.


Except it does, explicitly.

You're still limited by your speed. There's no difference between moving 25' and readying action to move another 25' off turn, and using Dash to get 50' movement on your turn. Well, there is: the former uses your reaction, and leaves the human outside your reach, so he doesn't need to Disengage to avoid OA, and can Dash instead. The later will end up with the dwarf next to the human at the start of his turn, which means he needs to use Disengage to get away on his turn. But then you're back where you've been at start: with the human using his better speed to get far enough to force the dwarf Dash to reach him again.

[Kadesh]

RTFM, ffs.

"Examples include "If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I'll pull the lever that opens it," and "If the goblin steps next to me, I move away.""

[JackPhoenix]

RTFM, ffs.

"Examples include "If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I'll pull the lever that opens it," and "If the goblin steps next to me, I move away.""

All right, smart guy... look at mine example above, and tell me how do *you* think it would work. It's not that hard, it's simple math.

[Kadesh]

All right, smart guy... look at mine example above, and tell me how do *you* think it would work. It's not that hard, it's simple math.

You've got a bit of an attitude phoenix boy, so I'll refer you to read through everything I've said in this thread and tell you to prove what I've said is wrong first.

No, no, I insist.

[Sharur]

A different tack, hopefully, from the above discussion:
What counters Disengage? Speed, which Malifice touched on.

Let's flip the scenario around: Despite cultural posturing of Dwarvish martial superiority, Bob the Humble Human is a better warrior than Adrik who now has 1 hp and is trying to escape. He disengages then runs 25 feat away. Bob walks up to him and attacks, just as if he had not moved.

Most creatures have a 30ft speed, which means for most creatures, Disengage is not an escape (barring weird things like difficult terrain that affects their pursuer but not themselves), it's getting to a more advantageous position, such as escaping a flanking position, a different lighting environment, or the benefits of allies. Dwarves have a penalty to speed. Yes, it does hurt.

What does movement speed do in a fight? It allows you more control over when and where an engagement takes place. With a great enough differential, it does allow one to flee from an opponent. So what's a slower pursuer to do?
1. Increase one's speed or reach (e.g. a Mount; the Mobile feat, especially over difficult terrain;spells like Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat)
2. Decrease the foe's speed (Ray of Frost, Grapple, Knocking Prone)
3. Invest in ranged attacks
4. Invest combined arms and other forces (aka party members)
5. Choose the terrain and/or actively position so as to preclude or hinder escape.
6. Seize or threaten a tactical objective

Also, note that in medieval warfare, killing the opponent was not necessarily the goal. Routing the opponent was. Killing an opponent should rarely be a character's end goal. If they are attacked, a fleeing enemy is defeated. If they they are escaping, a fleeing enemy isn't stopping them. There are circumstances in which a target must be eliminated (e.g. assassination, covert infiltration) but then it is the party is acting, not reacting, and so should have prepared for such eventualities.

[JackPhoenix]

You've got a bit of an attitude phoenix boy, so I'll refer you to read through everything I've said in this thread and tell you to prove what I've said is wrong first.

No, no, I insist.

I already did. Thrice. As I've said, it's simple math. Your plan doesn't accomplish anything.

[Kadesh]

I already did. Thrice. As I've said, it's simple math. Your plan doesn't accomplish anything.

Clearly not read through then...

[JackPhoenix]

Clearly not read through then...

You mean the parts where you're consistently wrong, the part where you're bringing up irrelevant rules, or the parts where you don't explain what the previously mentioned parts are supposed to accomplish?

[Kadesh]

You mean the parts where you're consistently wrong, the part where you're bringing up irrelevant rules, or the parts where you don't explain what the previously mentioned parts are supposed to accomplish?

Prove the part I'm supposedly consistently wrong (despite the rules stating it as a viable option) is wrong. What irrelevant rule am I bringing up? Chase rules and exhaustion? The ability to move as a ready action?

More importantly, prove yourself correct. I have done.

[JackPhoenix]

Prove the part I'm supposedly consistently wrong (despite the rules stating it as a viable option) is wrong.

Any time you mention taking Dash as ready action and think it'll accomplish anything.


What irrelevant rule am I bringing up? The ability to move as a ready action?

Yes. You can ready move, nobody disputes that. It just won't do you any good.


More importantly, prove yourself correct. I have done.

You did not. The closest thing was your very first post, which isn't well explained and which doesn't work. Mine does. If you don't believe me, check Malifice's post. The math ends up the same.

[Kadesh]

Any time you mention taking Dash as ready action and think it'll accomplish anything.



Yes. You can ready move, nobody disputes that. It just won't do you any good.



You did not. The closest thing was your very first post, which isn't well explained and which doesn't work. Mine does. If you don't believe me, check Malifice's post. The math ends up the same.

But was I wrong? No.
Did you say I couldn't? Yes.

Still ignoring chase and exhaustion rules. I see. Nice.

So, yes. The only way a human can escape is if they disengage dash ad infinitum AND the chase rules aren't in play.

Noted. Could have sworn I mentioned that in my first post. Oh, wait.

You've had an argument you didn't need to, trying to prove something I'd already stated.

But hey, phoenix boy, you do you. You clearly know your own fetishes better than I do.

Still waiting for proof of what you've said, mate. Chop chop.

[JackPhoenix]

Still ignoring chase and exhaustion rules. I see. Nice.

Irrelevant unless you're in chase, which apparently you aren't, if disengage is required.

[/QUOTE]So, yes. The only way a human can escape is if they disengage dash ad infinitum AND the chase rules aren't in play.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. The human can also potentially escape if the dash rules are in play, thanks to his higher speed. But I've already explained that, and I feel no need to repeat myself again to someone like you.

But fine, if you want to be proven wrong...


The dwarf readying an action to dash occurs once the disengage has already happened, though.

The dwarf can ready action to Dash. It won't do anything, because Dash doesn't allow you to move off-turn. The dwarf can ready movement, but that won't help him, as the human is faster, and the readied movement doesn't allow the dwarf to catch him without Dashing on his next turn.

He can't do both at the same time.

[Kadesh]

Irrelevant unless you're in chase, which apparently you aren't, if disengage is required.

So, yes. The only way a human can escape is if they disengage dash ad infinitum AND the chase rules aren't in play.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. The human can also potentially escape if the dash rules are in play, thanks to his higher speed. But I've already explained that, and I feel no need to repeat myself again to someone like you.

But fine, if you want to be proven wrong...



The dwarf can ready action to Dash. It won't do anything, because Dash doesn't allow you to move off-turn. The dwarf can ready movement, but that won't help him, as the human is faster, and the readied movement doesn't allow the dwarf to catch him without Dashing on his next turn.

He can't do both at the same time.[/QUOTE]

Okay let's break this down, real slow like.

Immutability 1: Dwarf will, in all likelihood have a +1 Con mod over an equally built human until you get to high levels.

Immutability 2: chase rules are in play. Thus, dwarf can dash for more times than a human, and have a greater chance of succeeding vs Exhaustion checks. 2nd Tier Exhaustion Slows human to half, thus meaning the dwarf does not need to dash once this occurs, while the human must

Glad that is resolved.

H1: Opportunity Attack vs Disengage means Disengage allows 30ft move.
D1: Dwarf moves 25ft, Readies dash (short hand for readies move)
H2: Human moves away, and doesn't dash to savoir energy and it is not a mind reader to Dwarfs' actions
D1 reaction: moves 25ft
D2: moves and attacks

The only way the human escapes is if Chase rules aren't to be used during a chase sequence, and thus can infinite dash, or if it has an equal or higher Con than the dwarf.

As mentioned in my first post, nothing outside of that stops Dash twice for the human, or using ranged weapons for either side.

But hey, who gives a damn about reading, bird boy.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

But hey, who gives a damn about reading, bird boy.

Not you, apparently, because I've already explained how it works. The dwarf can't dash more times than human if his Con is just 1 higher.

[Kadesh]

Not you, apparently, because I've already explained how it works. The dwarf can't dash more times than human if his Con is just 1 higher.

Look like maybe 2 lines up from there.

Lets all have a round of applause for Jackie here.

[JackPhoenix]

Look like maybe 2 lines up from there.

Lets all have a round of applause for Jackie here.

And you should look maybe 40 or so post up from there. But, if you feel need to applaud me for proving you're a hypocrite who "insists" I read all your posts and then don't bother do do the same with mine, I assure you that's all your work.

[Kadesh]

And you should look maybe 40 or so post up from there. But, if you feel need to applaud me for proving you're a hypocrite who "insists" I read all your posts and then don't bother do do the same with mine, I assure you that's all your work.

I quote literally never bothered to read your posts once I realised you'd not bothered to read mine, so I guess we're even.

Nght mate, been fun. We should do this again sometime.

[sithlordnergal]

With that particular scenario...not much you can do without the Sentinel feat. At best you can dash and use Action Surge to grapple...but that requires you to have saved Action Surge for the off chance that the target flees.

[Knaight]

Being faster counters it, ranged weapons counter it, the list goes on. In this case the dwarf got in a fight with someone faster than them armed only with melee weapons, then the someone faster ran away. There's really not much they can do at that point by the rules, and there's really not that much they can do at that point which makes sense in the fiction - with roughly the same options available (throw something, even a rock lying around) in both cases. This doesn't seem like an issue.

[Floogal]

Let me repeat, it appears this was missed:

When the dwarf dashes up to the human, he positions himself such that the human gets herded in a certain direction. If the human doesn't disengage directly away from the dwarf, the dwarf can catch up without dashing.

Eventually the group will reach difficult terrain or other obstructions that prevents the human from moving a full 30 feet away, and the dwarf can hit him. Depending on circumstances, the dwarf may want to ready an action to attack whenever the human is in range, and simply move 25 feet toward him per round, terminator-like.