Advice for a Burning Hands Mystic Theurge

[Edog]

So I stumbled across a Magic Missile Mage build a few weeks ago, and it got me thinking about single-spell-focused casters. I’ve been toying with ideas since then, and I want some feedback in case I ever get the chance to play this character. I’m planning a Wiz/Clr/Mystic Theurge who casts burning hands as much as possible!

I’ve always liked this spell, since it’s one of the first I ever learned about in D&D. It also has some near-unique features among first-level spells that make it appealing to me: it can deal full damage to (small) crowds, and it’s on the Fire domain spell list. It’s terribly weak at 5d4 damage, but with arcane thesis and some metamagic feats (empower, maximise and enhance) it can be boosted up to a serviceable 90 as a 7th-level spell. Other fun metamagic tricks include shape spell (quadruple your cone size for free!), energy substitution (to ice any pesky fire giants) and fell drain.

Most people agree that the theurge sucks, so to offset that I’ll start Wiz 1 with precocious apprentice, then go Clr 3 and then theurge all the way. I’ll keep almost-full cleric casting at the cost of a few wizard levels, and I get full access to two great spell lists.

The big problem I have here is that I can’t use normal cleric slots to cast burning hands—it really puts a damper on the pyromancer theme, so I’d love to circumvent this. Enemies with spell resistance and/or evasion will also be hard to deal with.

So, what do you think? How can I fix up the weaknesses? Is there anything I’ve overlooked? What’s the best way to spend my feats?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

[ericgrau]

So with massive cheese you can eventually boost it up to half monster HP, save half on a low save DC, assuming they don't have SR. This seems... difficult. Unlike magic missile this is a low level focused spell with poor scaling into high levels, no special support, and no high all level reliability. I suppose massive cheese can counter massive suck so feel free to go that route, but also briefly consider another spell. It doesn't have to be great, it just has to have a perk that makes it possible without super cheese. Personally I kinda like unseen servant (and/or related spells), true strike, charm person, shocking grasp (+improved familiar), chill touch (+many non-weapon attacks), or ray of enfeeblement. Unseen servant is probably best IMO. I know about floating disk but I question the tricks. Or continue on this road. Up to you.

[heavyfuel]

Ask/Beg your DM to allow the Intensified Spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic/) metamagic feat from Pathfinder.

Stack more metamagic on it. Searing Spell is excellent for spells that deal Fire damage. Fiery Spell basically raises your dice to d6 (it's actually 1d4+1, but it's the same on average).

It's not a terrible build overall.

[Mike Miller]

What level of play are you thinking? Enhance spell is epic. If you are epic levels, there are far better spells to use than a metamagic'ed level 1 spell.

[Silly Name]

Here's my two CP:

Don't go theurge. This isn't because of the common wisdom that theurges suck, but rather that I don't think it's really worth to invest three levels of Cleric to have one extra slot to prepare Burning Hands in. An high INT score can take care of that.

What you want to focus on is:

High Save DC
Ways to boost damage
Ways to change type of energy (to deal with creatures immune or resistant to Fire)
Metamagic feats to maximise/increase damage, enlarge area, etc.
Ways to diminish Metamagic costs


Since you want high save DCs, multiclassing into Cleric is doubly useless, because the DC of your divine Burning Hands is going to be lower than Arcane. An Evoker/Master Specialist/Incantatrix/Archmage might be a viable way to build this.

[mabriss lethe]

Another route might be to just go all in on cleric. Silverbrow human cleric of obad-hai with Fire and Air domains. Domain spontaneity feat (fire domain) if you want lots of fire on tap from your spells, but I'd go with Dragonfire channeling feat to give you what is effectively a better version of the burning hands. 1d6/2 cleric levels, no cap. Half fire, half sacred damage can be fueled by turn undead or elemental attempts. Of which you'd have a lot.

[Gullintanni]

Despite the common wisdom that Theurges suck, because you're focusing on a first level spell, you don't really care about how high your spell slots can get. MAD also hurts a lot less.

A few things to keep in mind:

1. Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF (Cleric) allows you to trade spontaneous cure//inflict spells for spontaneous spellcasting from one of your domains. Cleric++

This also prevents the need to burn a feat for Domain Spontaneity.

2. Divine Metamagic into: Fell Drain (for negative levels with every burning hands spell), and Quicken-Spell. If you want to debuff, then you can double up on negative levels here by applying Divine Metamagic Quicken Fell Draining Burning Hands out of a level 2 spell slot with Arcane Thesis, and follow it up with another Fell Drain Burning Hands out of another level 2 spell slot for 2 negative levels to every enemy in range. Combine with Searing Spell to drop negative levels on fire immune targets. Debuffs are a good way to add mileage to low level effects.

3. You don't need high casting stats. A 12 int will do. A headband of intellect will let you cast all the Wizard spells you'll ever need.

4. You don't need Heighten Spell to cast a low level spell out of a higher level slot. You can prepare Burning Hands in a higher level spell slot, but the save DCs won't go up. If you're short on feats, but high on spell slots, this is worth considering. Not that it matters since everything will be metamagicked out the gills anyway.

Good luck :)

[Deophaun]

It comes on late, but go Wisdom-focused Chameleon. Dip 1 level of Shiba protector. Use your favorite CL boosters with owl's insight to boost your Wisdom modifier. Grab a weapon with the furious enhancement. Add your Wis and Dex modifier to all your spell's damage. Knowledge Devotion for more dakka. Grab produce flame, scorching ray, orb of fire, fireball, and flame strike while you're at it for more pyromancy. Use empowered spellshards from the MIC for free Empowered spells of 3rd level and lower. Empower will hit the whole damage modifier, as it specifically affects variable effects (which would be damage), not variables (which would be 5d4). So you can easily have a +35 to damage from the above, with Empower making that +52.

[Ramza00]

Blast of Flame is good if you want a fire cone for higher levels. Wizard / Sorc / Warmage 4 does 10d6 damage in a 60-ft cones. (Which is a much larger area than fireball but you have to be close.)

[SLOTHRPG95]

If you're just trying to cast the best Burning Hands you can and you have access to it, Red Wizard can give you free Empower/Maximize/Heighten so long as you can get some arcane minions together for a circle. Elemental Savant is somewhat thematic, but gives you +2 save DC and that's about it (out of the relevant things). With that said, as others have mentioned, not sure that this is the best spell to work with.

[Nifft]

1/ Burning Hands is a bad spell to focus on.

2/ If you want to theurge, a better way to cast heaps of level 1 spells might be a Wizard 4 / Sorcerer 1 / Ultimate Magus 10.

3/ You can cast any level 1 spell an arbitrary number of times using Primal Scholar (from Secrets of Xen'drik). It's a 5 level class so you could layer it on after Ulimate Magus 10.

[Edog]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

To all the naysayers out there: you're totally right. Mystic Theurge sucks and so does Burning Hands, and if I wanted to make something that was actually strong, I'd focus on something else. Thanks for the suggestions, though, I'll keep them in mind! (Especially chill touch, that one seems fun.)

Besides that, all the content people have recommended me seems great! Incantatrix and Ultimate Magus are great, and I'll probably try them out if I get the chance, and chameleon and Shiba protector seem very fun! Fiery Spell and Intensified Spell sound awesome, as do Empowered Spellshards. Oh, and I love the domain casting feat and ACF!

Also, I had no idea enhanced spell was epic.

Thanks again!

[Nifft]

If you're open to using other spells, I suspect the most abusable level 1 spell is silent image.

The means for abusing silent image are Shadowcraft Mage + Earth Spell + Arcane Disciple (luck domain), and that leaves you 10 levels of some other PrC to play with.

[death390]

one major trick is to use +0 metamagic to further reduce costly metamagic. because:

Choose one arcane spell that you can cast to be your thesis spell. When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level. When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal. Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.

each metamagic feat reduces the cost by -1 to a minimum of the original spell level. this reading means that each +0 metamagic is basically -1 in the overall level since it acts as a final tally. for example:
maximize +3
Silent +1
Invisible +0
Arcane thesis -3
total: 4-3 = +1 spell level.

the other thing that can be done is use ANY +1 metamagic at no cost since it reduces by 1 for each +1 for a net +0.

i have an archived metamagic page that no longer exists but to help i will copy down a listing of the +0 and +1 lists.

Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325): For the cost of 1 caster level, and one slot from a class that grants the spell, you can prepare an arcane spell as divine, or a divine spell as arcane.
Black Lore of Moil (Complete Arcane, page 76): Any Necromancy spell deals +1d6 damage, +1d6/two spell levels. Must expend a 'runebone' that costs 25gp per 1d6 to be generated. See feat for full details.
Born of Three Thunders (Complete Arcane, page 76): Any [electricity] or [sonic] spell that deals damage has its damage split split 50/50 between electricity and sonic damage. Adds Fort save or deafened, plus Reflex save vs being knocked prone.
City Spell (Cityscape, page 59-60): Any spell with an energy descriptor and cast within any urban area above the size of small town converts 50% of its damage into "city" damage.
Cooperative Spell (Complete Arcane, page 77): Requires additional person with this feat, who casts the same spell with you. Adds +2 DC and +1 caster level to beat Spell Resistance, and uses the better of the two spellcasters' DC and caster level. Can be expanded into multiple extra people, adding +1 DC and +1 CL for each additional person.
Energy Affinity (Miniature's Handbook): Subsumed by Energy Substitution; also slightly harder to qualify for. Same effect.
Energy Substitution (Complete Arcane, page 79): Any spell with an energy descriptor can be changed to have the energy descriptor (and deal corresponding damage type) chosen by this feat.
Ghost Touch Spell (Ghostwalk, page 34): Allows spells to affect ghosts and only ghosts.
Imbued Healing (Complete Champion, page 60): Adds a rider effect specific to one of your domains on the tail-end of your conjuration (healing) spells. Has a table for non-PHB domains on page 53.
Invisible Spell (Cityscape, page 61): Removes all visual manifestation of a spell.
Lord of the Uttercold (Complete Arcane, page 81): Any spell with the [cold] descriptor can be changed to deal half cold damage, half negative energy damage.
Miser With Magic (Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide, page 88): Not really a metamagic feat, despite being marked as such. After casting a spell, make a Spellcraft check at a DC = 10+(2* Spell Level). Succeed, and you get the spell back. Fail by 5 or more, you don't cast it and lose the slot. Regains a number of spell levels equal to your primary casting stat modifier.
Sanctum Spell (Complete Arcane, pages 82-83): Has an effective spell level of +1 when cast in sanctum, but -1 cast outside of sanctum.

of these +0 level spells the most relevant and useful would be: Alternative source spell (your already a theurge so should meet pre-reqs), energy substitution (go around fire resistance, i recommend acid), invisible spell (extra funny), lord of uttercold (could be used in conjunction with Energy sub). these +0 metamagics can be used to help pay for the lower level variants of your burning hands spells since you probably want multiple effective spell level versions (and just use lower level slots in general)

Bend Spell (Dragon #291, Dungeon Compendium Vol. 1): Negates cover bonuses.
Blistering Spell (Player's Handbook II, page 91): +2 fire damage per spell level, and -2 to attack rolls and checks if the target fails its save. [fire] spells only.
Clawed Spell (Dragon #315): Spell deals 1d6 Force damage for every 5 caster levels.
Coercive Spell (Drow of the Underdark, page 47): Spell deals a -2 penalty to Will saves for 3 rounds, non-cumulative.
Consecrate Spell (Book of Exalted Deeds, page 42/Complete Divine, page 79): Spell gains [good] descriptor, and if it deals damage, half of it is divine damage.
Corrupt Spell (Book of Vile Darkness, page 47/Complete Divine, pages 79-80): Spell gains [evil] descriptor, and if it deals damage, half of it is divine damage.
Deafening Spell (Drow of the Underdark, page 49): Any spell that deals damage also deafens its target for 1 round. No save.
Deceptive Spell (Cityscape, page 60): Makes a spell appear to originate from a different direction.
Energize Spell (Libris Mortis, page 26): Deals 1.5x damage to undead creatures, but 0.5x damage to non-undead and objects.
Enlarge Spell: Doubles the Range entry on a spell's description.
Extend Spell: Double duration of a spell.
Fell Energy Spell (Dungeon Compendium Vol. 1, Dragon #312): Any spell that gives a numerical bonus gives an extra +2 to undead.
Fell Weaken (Libris Mortis, page 27): Any spell that deals damage also deals out a non-cumulative -4 Strength penalty.
Fiery Spell (Sandstorm, pages 49-50): Only usable on spells with the [fire] descriptor, adds +1 damage per die of damage dealt by the spell.
Flash Frost Spell (Player's Handbook II, page 91): Only usable on spells with the [cold] descriptor, adds +2 damage per level of the spell and creates a quasi-grease effect in the spell's area for 1 round. Note that any spell when using the Snowcasting feat is a [cold] spell.
Forceful Spell (Dragon #358): Adds a Save-or-Suck to any spell on any one target (even on an area-of-effect spell): Save or be knocked prone and stunned for 1 round.
Imbued Summoning (Player's Handbook II, page 92): Any creature created by conjuration (summoning) spells can have any spell you know of 3rd level or lower with a range of touch cast on it auto-magically.
Sculpt Spell (Cityscape, page 63, Complete Arcane, page 83): Changes an area spell's area.
Silent Spell: Removes Verbal components.
Still Spell: Removes Somatic components (and arcane spell failure for armor).
Transdimensional Spell (Complete Arcane, page 84): Allows a spell to affect an incorporeal creature, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space within the spell's area.

of these +1 metamagics the most useful are probably: Extend spell (range is still limited to 15ft unless used), Fiery spell (+1 damage per die), forceful spell (because it is usefull), sculpt spell (as you said in your post), silent/still spell (for the usefulness of not needing to speak/move).

other metamagic that could be useful:
Easy Metamagic:
Type: Metamagic
Source: Dragon #325

One of your metamagic feats is easier to use.
Prerequisite: Any other metamagic feat.
Benefit: Choose a metamagic feat you already have. When preparing or casting a spell modified by that feat, lower the spell-slot cost by one. You can never reduce the spell-slot cost below one level higher than the spell's actual level. For example, taking this feat for the Quicken Spell feat reduces the spell slot cost of a quickened spell from four levels higher than the spell's actual level to three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, you must choose a new metamagic feat.

this is extra goodness since itself is a metamagic it counts for arcane thesis! AND it reduces the specific cost of a metamagic, i suggest heighten to boost your DC. AND it being a metamagic can be used on itself.

+3s:
Maximized: no dice to roll just take max.
Repeat: cast again in the same area from the original emanation point so don't move into the zone!!

+4s:
Energy Admixture: double damage by adding another type! Must be same type as Energy Substitution Pre-req, however it doesn't say you can't use both!!
Twin Spell: cast the spell twice but can't change the targeted area.
Quicken: do i really need to say why?

hope this helps. the source i am using was called "Metamagic and you: a thesis" it was on the brilliant gameologists boards if you can find a version. also if your looking for prestige classes to help with this Metaphysical Spell Shaper is good. it has the issue of being 3rd party since it is from The Book of Erotic Fantasy, but is a great 3 level class that gives -1 to final metamagic total, pay for metamagic by taking ability burn (use the magic of incarnum Strongheart Vest to negate it!!), and some free metamagic.