Why do Mordenkainen’s Sword and Bigby’s Hand both exist?

[holywhippet]

Both spells require a bonus action to activate after the initial summons.

The sword spell is level 7, can do 3d10 damage per attack and only moves 20 feet per turn.

The hand spell is level 5, can do 4d8 damage per attack (or 6d8 with a level 6 or higher slot) and can move 60 feet per turn. It can also do a number of other different tricks.

So Bigby's hand moves further, does more damage on average and has more tricks it can pull off. About the only downside of it is that it does have HP and AC so it can be "killed" although most spells won't work on it in theory.

So why do both spells exist in game when Bigby's hand seems to be better across the board?

[Tiadoppler]

I also note that Mordenkainen's Sword requires a specific 250gp spell component (not consumed, but still), and has to be summoned closer to the caster than the Hand.


I think it's tradition. There are some spells that exist because they (and the characters who "created" the spell) existed in previous D&D editions.

As a DM, seeing how Bigsby's does 8d8 (36) damage when cast at 7th level, I'd probably allow a player who used Mordenkainen's Sword to do 7d10 (38.5) or even 8d10 (44) damage with it. It's a higher level spell that has less utility, so it should do a bit more damage, especially given that it can be outrun by most enemies.

[holywhippet]

I do seem to recall Mordenkainen’s Sword from earlier editions. But I don't see why the designers put in a 7th level spell that is inferior to a 5th level spell pretty much across the board. They should have cranked up the damage or something.

[Tiadoppler]

It's poorly designed. It does about 1/3 of the damage it should.


Even if I did triple the damage of Mordenkainen's Sword, Bigsby's Hand
> Has utility
> Has mobility
> Can be cast at lower levels, more often, and still scales well for higher level slots

But, at least there'd be a real choice between Bigsby's Hand and Mordenkainen's Sword.

[MaxWilson]

So why do both spells exist in game when Bigby's hand seems to be better across the board?

Proposed Watsonian answer: because Bigby wanted to one-up Mordenkainen by researching a better spell.

Proposed Doylist answer: because WotC isn't very consistent at spell design.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Because sometimes, you just want a spell that objectively sucks...?

Seriously, it's literally worse than a 2nd level spell, Spiritual Weapon (at least if you upcast it with a 6th level & have 16+ spellcasting stat). Because it requires concentration.

There's really no justification for the spell. Although wizards and such obviously don't get Spiritual Weapon, Bigby's is clearly the all-around better spell. I cannot imagine anyone taking MS upon leveling up, nor using it if they happen upon it in a scroll. :smallyuk:

[Unoriginal]

Mordenkainen is a jerk and not as clever as he think he is. He probably saw Bigby's Hand and went "I can do it too."

[R.Shackleford]

Mordenkainen is a jerk and not as clever as he think he is. He probably saw Bigby's Hand and went "I can do it too."

I wonder if the player behind Mordenkainen was playing their character that way back in the day. Bigby did one thing so Modenkainen did something in response.

Maybe the other way around?

[Mr.Spastic]

I think it just exists for thematic reasons. I gave it to my college of swords bard as magic secrets to fit the theme I went for. The upside it that it can't be killed like Bigby's Hand and does force damage so it ignores resistances. It is also harder t counterspell but that is kind of a moot point. I enjoy it because it doesn't seem like a waste compared to other seventh level spells which I saw as mostly bland. And being able to summon a giant sword is just really cool.

[Jerrykhor]

I think it just exists for thematic reasons. I gave it to my college of swords bard as magic secrets to fit the theme I went for. The upside it that it can't be killed like Bigby's Hand and does force damage so it ignores resistances. It is also harder t counterspell but that is kind of a moot point. I enjoy it because it doesn't seem like a waste compared to other seventh level spells which I saw as mostly bland. And being able to summon a giant sword is just really cool.

All the spells exist for thematic reasons. But even on that, Mordy's Sword still sucks. You see, Spiritual Weapon is better because it can take the form of any melee weapon you choose. And for thematic reasons, this kind of flexibility is better. Mordy's Sword can only be a sword, which just happens to be what you need. But since Spiritual Weapon can be a sword too, and is mechanically superior to MS in every single way, why not Spiritual Weapon?

I don't like to tell people how to play, but this spell really has no redeemable merits. I think WotC are just trolling at this point. When the number of damage dice is less than half the spell level (and doesnt even add modifiers!), its a dead give away that the spell is crap. No trap can be this obvious.

[Mr.Spastic]

I also had spiritual weapon but I used both. I just like the idea of summoning a massive force sword over a regular sized spiritual sword. To each his own, but its not useless.

[ImproperJustice]

By comparison it’s in the same tier as Whirlwind, Crown of Stars, Reverse Gravity, and so on.

I would be curious to hear exploits from someone successfully using it in a situation where these other spells could not do the same job at shaping an encounter.

[Mr.Spastic]

I think the only benifit is the range of casting. Because 60ft can get it there at the start of most combats compared to bigby's hand.

[Tiadoppler]

I think the only benifit is the range of casting. Because 60ft can get it there at the start of most combats compared to bigby's hand.

Bigsby's is range 120', so Bigsby's Hand has the advantage there too.

[Darth Ultron]

I wonder if the player behind Mordenkainen was playing their character that way back in the day. Bigby did one thing so Modenkainen did something in response.

Maybe the other way around?

Well, Mordenkainen, was no less then Gary Gygax's player character. Bigby was an evil wizard NPC that Mordenkainen charmed and made an ally.

The 1E spell version is Explanation/Description: Upon casting this spell, the magic-user brings into being a shimmering sword-like plane of force. The spell caster is able to mentally wield this weapon (to the exclusion of activities other than movement), causing it to move and strike as if it were being used by a fighter. The basic chance for Mordenkainen's Sword to hit is the same as the chance for a sword wielded by a fighter of one-half the level of the spell caster, i.e. if cast by a 12th level magic-user, the weapon has the same hit probability as a sword wielded by a 6th level fighter. The sword has no magical "to hit" bonuses, but it can hit any sort of opponent even those normally struck only by +3 weapons or astral, ethereal or out of phase; and it will hit any armour class on a roll of 19 or 20. It inflicts 5-20 hit points on opponents of man-size or smaller, and 5-30 on opponents larger than man-sized. It can be used to subdue. It lasts until the spell duration expires, a dispel magic is used successfully upon it, or its caster no longer desires it. The material component is a miniature platinum sword with a grip and pommel of copper and zinc which costs 500 g.p. to construct, and which disappears after the spell's completion.


The sword spell and the Bigby's hand spells were all made 'new' for the very first 1E Players Handbook.

[MeeposFire]

One difference is that mordakanens sword can attack twice in its first round whereas spiritual weapon cannot (as I recall the spell description of sword says it costs an action to cast and it attacks when it is created and then you can use a bonus action to attack that same round if you want) but even so spiritual weapon is a bonus action to use so you could combo it with either a cantrip or weapon attacks whichever works better for you.

Also is there anything that says that spirtual weapon is smaller? As far as I know the two effects can have the same look and size.

[Jerrykhor]

I also had spiritual weapon but I used both. I just like the idea of summoning a massive force sword over a regular sized spiritual sword. To each his own, but its not useless.

You know both spells, but can't use them at the same time anyways. I still don't see the point. You can basically nerf the damage of MS down to 1d10 and its still not useless, because 'it does some damage', right? If its just the size you want, i don't think any DM is going to deny you a Spiritual Weapon that looks like a BFS.

I'm calling it now, this spell is going to be No.1 on Treantmonk's worst Level 7 spells.

[Mr.Spastic]

I don't use them simultaneously. The two attacks with it on turn one can be nice.

[Mr.Spastic]

I'm not denying that it's bad, I'm just saying that it's not horrible. I just personally find it to be a fun spell.

[Zalabim]

I think it just exists for thematic reasons. I gave it to my college of swords bard as magic secrets to fit the theme I went for. The upside it that it can't be killed like Bigby's Hand and does force damage so it ignores resistances. It is also harder t counterspell but that is kind of a moot point. I enjoy it because it doesn't seem like a waste compared to other seventh level spells which I saw as mostly bland. And being able to summon a giant sword is just really cool.
If you took Mordenkainen's Sword as a magical secrets spell, you overpaid. The spell is already on the Bard's spell list.

[Arkhios]

The short answer is that they've existed since the beginning, more or less.

The long answer is, as it was already pointed out, Mordenkainen was Gygax's "DMPC" of sorts (and a character he would play when Rob Kuntz was taking a turn to DM).
As was correctly stated before, Bigby was a non-player character created by Rob Kuntz, and a nemesis to Mordenkainen, who would subdue Bigby and make him his servant and later an ally. As far as I know Bigby didn't really use "hand" spells, but was credited for having "developed" them when Gygax wrote AD&D Players Handbook.

However, if I'm not mistaken Mordenkainen's Sword was developed - and quite possibly used in-game - by Mordenkainen when Gygax played the character.

So, to conclude, both spells have a lot of "historical" weight in regards to the origins of the game. I believe both of them have been kept around mostly out of respect to the game's original creator, no matter how badly they are designed (in all respect, I would bet if Gygax knew how bad Mordenkainen's Sword is in 5th edition, he'd turn in his grave).

[Unoriginal]

I think Gygax would be fine with it. Mordenkainen has a long history of failures.

[DanyBallon]

The difference between the two is that the sword let you make two attacks per turn with up to 20ft move in between the attacks and is invincible. While the hand can be destroyed, and at most can only make a single attack. Also the spell description says that the hand is mimicking your own hand thus requiring you a free hand for the duration of the spell.

Are these difference enough, it's up to you to decide.

Lastly, on the historical side, the Mordy's sword was a way for the squishy wizard of earlier edition to participate in melee combat. As for the 5e Bigby's Hand, it's a compilation of many different spells with Bigby's name.

[Arkhios]

I think Gygax would be fine with it. Mordenkainen has a long history of failures.

That's certainly a possibility as well.:smalltongue:

[Unoriginal]

The difference between the two is that the sword let you make two attacks per turn with up to 20ft move in between the attacks and is invincible.

You can't make two attacks per turn with the Sword, aside from the turn you're casting it. it's "you cast it and make a melee spell attack, and from then on you can use a bonus action to make a melee spell attack"

[Demonslayer666]

Same reason that is Witchbolt a spell.

[Sigreid]

It would still be a good spell if it had it's 1e ability to attack foes that are ethereal. It would be a niche use, but a good one.

[DanyBallon]

You can't make two attacks per turn with the Sword, aside from the turn you're casting it. it's "you cast it and make a melee spell attack, and from then on you can use a bonus action to make a melee spell attack"

My bad, I must have misread that part :smallbiggrin:

Still the fact that you don't need a free hand after having cast the spell can in some case be useful.

[jiriku]

It's just a balance error that was not caught during playtest.

Mordenkainen's sword was a 7th level spell in earlier editions. So in this edition, it was made 7th level. Probably since it was a high-level spell with a niche purpose, few players took it during playtest and no one sounded the alarm that its 5e incarnation was underpowered for a 7th level slot.

Bigby's hand, on the other hand, was a whole series of spells: bigby's interposing hand, bigby's grasping hand, bigby's crushing hand, and bigby's clenched fist. Each had one specific application, and they were at progressively higher levels. Someone came up with the bright idea of "why not just make all of these spells into different options of one spell" and they put all the options at the lowest level of the series, but gave it the really great damage associated with the higher-level spell. Which, all things considered, makes it pretty cool as a 5th level spell, especially when compared to mordenkainen's sword.

When there are a couple hundred spells to consider and thousands of rules to review, a few things will slip through the cracks. If you were to leave mordenkainen's sword unchanged but make it available at 4th or 5th level, I'm sure it would be a perfectly acceptable spell.

[Talyn]

I believe that Jiriku is correct. It's also an easy fix - just double its damage per hit, and then it is more in line with an appropriate spell level.

[Vogie]

Same reason that is Witchbolt a spell.

I'm pretty sure Witchbolt exists only for Sorcerers to Twin and do reliable, repeated, multi-target damage without spending more than a single spell slot.

[Malphegor]

Swords are cool. Also mechanically speaking there might be some stuff that could theoretically happen to the sword with spells that specifically target weapons, such as various buffs.

[EggKookoo]

The Dudes asked this same question.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ABJ4MU1MAs

[Silkensword]

I'm pretty sure Witchbolt exists only for Sorcerers to Twin and do reliable, repeated, multi-target damage without spending more than a single spell slot.

I would disagree with "reliable", the enemy can often move out of range, ending the effect.