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Grymmheart
2007-09-18, 12:27 PM
Not sure if this is the correct forum for this question, but it seemed correct.

I have seen arguments every which way and ultimately have come to the conclusion that scrolls can have quickened versions of spells on them, but it will usually still take a standard action to use the scroll.
I believe Complete Arcane goes into further description of scroll use, but basically a scroll must be read to perform the spell completion step of the spell. Unless the caster is walking around with the scrolls unfurled and ready to read, I argue that a caster can not unfurl a scroll and read the spell as a
swift action. Does this seem correct, or should I reconsider my stance? Or have my PC's foes target the scroll cases more frequently?

Tyger
2007-09-18, 12:41 PM
Activating a magic item, including a scroll, is a standard action. So you could scribe a quickened version of True Strike onto a scroll. Its a level 5 spell, and it still takes a standard action to read the scroll... Save your gold. :smallsmile:


From the SRD
Activating a magic item is a standard action (unless the item description indicates otherwise).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-18, 01:36 PM
I agree that activating a level 1 scroll of True Strike 25 GP market price would be a standard action but the SRD quoted in your post nails it:

Activating a magic item is a standard action (unless the item descriptions says otherwise) so wouldn't that be the case for a level 5 scroll of Quickened True Strike? (Isn't the item description in this case Quickened scroll of True Strike 1,125 GP market price saying otherwise?).

IMO it would need to be in your hand already you can't take an action to retrieve and then cast it.

Jasdoif
2007-09-18, 01:44 PM
Activating a magic item is a standard action (unless the item descriptions says otherwise) so wouldn't that be the case for a level 5 scroll of Quickened True Strike? (Isn't the item description in this case Quickened scroll of True Strike 1,125 GP market price saying otherwise?).It's still just a regular scroll that holds a spell. That the spell in question is a swift action doesn't change that. It's a scroll of a quickened spell, not a quickened scroll of a spell :smalltongue:


Activating any magic item is a standard action, unless the item duplicates a spell effect that has a longer casting time or unless the item description specifies a different casting time.Emphasis mine.

Jacob Orlove
2007-09-18, 02:51 PM
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise.
You might want to finish that quote. The next line is the relevant one:

However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
Now, you'll hear people say that this doesn't apply to swift action spells, but if you want to go by the strictest RAW, it does. The key is the "Primary Source Rule" in the errata, which says that the DMG has the final word on magic items. Newer books have introduced the idea that the minimum time for activating a scroll is a standard action (and that's what the FAQ cites), but those rules don't actually apply unless you ignore the Primary Source Rule.

Since the Primary Source Rule is the only one in the entire game that governs what books take precedence when there's a disagreement in the printed rules, I think it makes sense to use it, but others may disagree.

tainsouvra
2007-09-18, 02:59 PM
Since the Primary Source Rule is the only one in the entire game that governs what books take precedence when there's a disagreement in the printed rules, I think it makes sense to use it, but others may disagree. It should be used any time that the secondary source does not specifically state that it overrides the normal rules, yes.

Jacob Orlove
2007-09-18, 03:25 PM
It should be used any time that the secondary source does not specifically state that it overrides the normal rules, yes.
That would make a lot of sense, but it is unfortunately not what the primary source rule says (although I imagine it IS how most people actually play the game).

Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&Dģ rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over
a table entry. An individual spell description takes
precedence when the short description in the beginning
of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
descriptions. If you find something on one of those
topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
primary source for topics such as magic item
descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

horseboy
2007-09-18, 03:29 PM
So, are you trying to turn full round spells into standard actions by penning them as quickened?

Grymmheart
2007-09-18, 03:33 PM
Thanks for the replies. I will stay with the standard action to use a scroll, even if "quickened" spell on the scroll.

Although one interesting caveat is the idea you can have several spells on a scroll (not sure if 3 is max but SRD uses that number I believe). So you COULD conceivably have a scroll with two spells, one quickened and one regular, and the standard action to "use/unfurl/read" a scroll could allow casting of both spells in one round.

kme
2007-09-18, 03:42 PM
I just want to add that using a scroll of quicken spell as a swift action doesn't have to be illogical.Swift action does not require 0 time, it just require small amount of time that can be incorporated easily during your other actions.So the scroll could be used just with looking at it and thinking something, or whispering a very short word.
Of course drawing a scroll will still require move action.

tainsouvra
2007-09-18, 04:33 PM
That would make a lot of sense, but it is unfortunately not what the primary source rule says (although I imagine it IS how most people actually play the game). Actually, the primary-sources rule does not apply in cases where the secondary source specifically says it overrides the primary source. Deliberate statements of change are not disagreements--they are deliberate revisions. The primary source rule only applies to disagreements.

Jacob Orlove
2007-09-18, 05:20 PM
That's an interesting line of argument. How are we supposed to tell what "corrections" are deliberate, though, and which are not?

tainsouvra
2007-09-18, 05:24 PM
That's an interesting line of argument. How are we supposed to tell what "corrections" are deliberate, though, and which are not? If, as I had previously mentioned as the required element, they specifically state they override the primary source, they are deliberate. If they do not state they override the primary source, then any differences between the primary and secondary source constitute a disagreement in which the primary source is automatically considered correct.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-18, 07:38 PM
Actually, the primary-sources rule does not apply in cases where the secondary source specifically says it overrides the primary source. Deliberate statements of change are not disagreements--they are deliberate revisions. The primary source rule only applies to disagreements.

It isn't always quite that clear cut. Just reading the different boards it is clear plenty of games stick to core rules. Other source books are optional. Plenty of games limit source books to a manageable level.

That secondary source book may not be allowed into a game: Player "Complete Mage says...." DM "Well that's nice, but I already allow a dozen other source books in my game but not Complete Mage because wizards are already powerful enough so ......".

Curmudgeon
2007-09-19, 09:25 AM
That secondary source book may not be allowed into a game: Player "Complete Mage says...." DM "Well that's nice, but I already allow a dozen other source books in my game but not Complete Mage because wizards are already powerful enough so ......". Interesting example. I've found the best parts of Complete Mage are the substitution levels for other classes. In particular I like the "Spell Sense" feature that lets Barbarians and Rogues replace their trap sense with a bonus to AC against spells and spell-like ablilities -- exactly what you want if you think "wizards are already powerful enough".

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-19, 01:00 PM
Well, a quick question: Where is this supposed "secondary source" that tells us that swift and immediate scrolls and wands don't work? I'm fairly surprised I've never heard of it, and would like to take a look.

Larrin
2007-09-19, 01:55 PM
Well, a quick question: Where is this supposed "secondary source" that tells us that swift and immediate scrolls and wands don't work? I'm fairly surprised I've never heard of it, and would like to take a look.

Its the SRD, the spell trigger rules
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger

wands and scrolls use "spell trigger rules", and seem to agree that it takes a minimum of a standard action to activate them

Grymmheart
2007-09-19, 01:59 PM
I don't believe there is asecondary source exists that says X can not be quickened. But it is the understanding of spell completion/etc that "implies" quickening X can not happen. From SRD


Spell Completion
This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All thatís left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he canít already cast the spell, thereís a chance heíll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but itís even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who canít actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.



So scrolls are spell completion which is performing the final steps in a spell. If a "quickened" spell on the scroll, people argue that can be completed as a quickened spell. Complete mage I believe describes scroll use in more detail and describes time involved in unrolling scroll/reading it/etc, which goes against quickened use. IN bold red letters from SRD has wording in my rereading it, that says all scrolls are standard action to use. But what of spells that take more than one round to cast? I can't find the language to state that those spells take more than one standard action to cast.

Wands should not be able to be quickened for 2 reasons. First, they also state that it takes a standard action to perform a spell trigger, except I believe a few items specifically state that their triggers can be use as a swift or immediate action. Second, wands can only be lvl 4 or below and even quickened lvl 1 spells, would be lvl 5 spell equivalents.

Jasdoif
2007-09-19, 02:01 PM
I can't find the language to state that those spells take more than one standard action to cast.I believe it's already been quoted in this thread, but here you go, from the general rules of magic items.


Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

Zherog
2007-09-19, 02:05 PM
Its the SRD, the spell trigger rules
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger

wands and scrolls use "spell trigger rules", and seem to agree that it takes a minimum of a standard action to activate them

Scrolls are spell completion items, not spell trigger items.

Grymmheart
2007-09-19, 02:05 PM
I knew it existed, but could not find the quote to post, thanks. Forgot to look at earlier posts also, silly me.

Larrin
2007-09-19, 02:08 PM
Scrolls are spell completion items, not spell trigger items.

oh well, Grymmheart covered that one, still a standard action though...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-19, 02:40 PM
Interesting example. I've found the best parts of Complete Mage are the substitution levels for other classes. In particular I like the "Spell Sense" feature that lets Barbarians and Rogues replace their trap sense with a bonus to AC against spells and spell-like ablilities -- exactly what you want if you think "wizards are already powerful enough".

I like Complete Mage it has a lot of neat things in it. For every bone they threw the other classes the wizards got some major options at all levels. I like Reserve Feats at low levels particularly with the Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane. Complete Mage also introduces the Ultimate Magus and Master Specialist.

Go Beguiler - 1 with Precocious Apprentice Feat, Go Specialist Mage -1 Diviner and foregoing Enchantment not a bad idea in a low level skill game. Starting at level 3 now you can take a few Master Specialist levels before entering into Ultimate Magus.

Take a single feat practiced spellcaster feat and now you have really powerful Meta spellcasting options at level 15 way before other standard primary casters. Levels 15 is where you are weakest mechanically against a standard caster because a standard wizard 15 casts 2 or 3 level 8 spells although you should be able to cast 4 level 5 Quickened spells something a comparable standard caster cannot emulate best they can do is 2 or 3 quickened level 4 spells.

A very important point often overlooked is when you are weakest at level 15 and 17 against a standard equal level mage in most games because you lag them in spellcasting by one level you are generally not fighting a BBEG wizard one on one you are killing something else usually a BBEG monster for it's treasure.

At level 15 you should probably cast spells as a Specialist wizard - 14 (with a + 4 to Arcane Spell Power (effectively CL18 for spell effects)) compared to a standard level 15 Specialist who casts as a level 15 spellcaster who can probably cast 2 level 8 spells and 3 if a Specialist or (Quickened level 4 spells).

Particularly Quickening Spells up to level 5 (You can fuel 4 level 5 Specialist spells or lower from the Beguiler side as level 5 spells day (This normally requires a level 9 spell slot to emulate something a level 15 spellcaster normally can't do) and Empower or Maximize up to 6 others from the Beguiler side) plus you still have all your high level spell options the standard wizard can't emulate or match. You have the option to spontaneous cast over 90 spells from cantrips to level 4 spells as a Beguiler some are very nice spells. It allow more tweaking of selected Specialist side spells.

The NarDemonbinder and Sublime Chord PRCs are even better for the Ultimate Magus build for Quickening up to 10 level 5 or below spells a day with the Quicken spell feat and knowing fewer spells than a Beguiler. Throw in Spell Thief and a feat and things get out of control.

So if a PC wants to pay to walk around in game with a Quickened scroll in hand to cast as a Swift action I'd allow it since that level 1 scroll has a market price of 25 GP and a level 5 Quickened variant should cost market price 1,125 GP under the item rules that the scroll was specifically created for that purpose Swift casting.

I'm not saying the DM should target the scroll but things can happen to that scroll in game he has to take an action to put it away or drop it if he needs that hand for something else. Make the PC role play carrying the scroll around. Eventually he puts it down or drops it (fell into a trap) and someone accidentally sets it off picking it up curious what the wizard is always carrying around in his hand because it has a single syllable trigger.

Suggested wealth for a level 10 PC is 49,000 GP and 110,000 GP for a level 13 PC so that level 1 scroll is a respectable chunk that could be used to own a level 1 Pearl of Power usable daily.

Edea
2007-09-19, 02:51 PM
Usually this argument only comes up when an Artificer PC uses Metamagic Item infusions. I haven't seen it before in non-Eberron play, as most of the time metamagic only truly shines if you are able to apply it on the fly (something you can't normally do with items).

Grymmheart
2007-09-19, 07:39 PM
Castlemike, off the original thread comment, but I will bite on your post. I had alittle trouble following some of the stuff written because I do not know all the feats you mentioned outright. But one ultimate magus problem I see with not using base classes (wiz/sorc), is something posted in sage advice soon after the book came out.

It stated that the spells added to the spontaneous side, must be spells that the class can normally cast. So if not on the beguiler list (or feasible with advanced learning), you can not add the spells to the spontaneous side of casting. Not sure if that raises a problem with your example, but wanted to mention it.