Are domain spells considered divine spells?

[Monk of love]

Hello!

I recently had to re-roll as my dm nerfed druid wildshape into the ground(this was before I had even gotten to wildshape) so he allowed me to re-roll and I thought Archivist seemed cool if not expensive. Now that I have gained a few levels, I started looking for other classes scrolls such as druid to look those spells, and oh wow when I said I wanted to look for domain scrolls and have either our warlock or pay a warlock to scribe a domain scroll and the DM just outright stated that domain spells are not divine spells... so they cannot be put onto scrolls. So I need to find a rule that outright states that domain spells are considered divine for scroll purposes.

This is campaign where magic is abundant, especially arcane so power issues aren't the question given that there are even iotsv prestige wizards walking around.

[heavyfuel]

Your DM is "wrong". That is to say, Domain Spells cast by Clerics (as opposed to Domain Spells cast by Domain Wizards) are Divine Spells because those are the type of spells that a Cleric can cast.

However, your DM does have final say on any and everything in his game. If he says you can't get Domain spells into your prayerbook, then tough luck. Either talk to him about it, or re-roll yet again.

[denthor]

I had this discussion. My cleric had trickery domain which contains invisibility.

DM never in forced the ruling but yes if my cleric made invisibility it was devine in nature not arcane.

He hated his own ruling so he never did that to his players. BUT a cleric that get invisibility scroll is great. To me.

[DeTess]

Domain spells can be divine spell scrolls if they're scribed as a scroll by a divine caster, in the same way as any other spell that is on both arcane and divine caster lists can potentially be gotten as a scroll of either type.

I don't think you're going to find the rule you're looking for, as your DM is proposing an exception exists to the general rule (divine casters cast divine spells). Maybe you should ask the DM what a clerics caster level is for their domain spells, as they only have a divine caster level, not an arcane caster level?

[Saintheart]

Your DM may not understand the fact that divine spell > a spell on the cleric or druid list. Ranger or Paladin spells are divine spells, but they have their own lists entirely.

Take a look at the SRD entry for Haste. It's described as a Wizard spell, but it's also given the Time 3, Celerity 4 level as well. It's given those levels because Haste is on the spell list of those domains; the source of the spell is the domain, and the domains are given by deities or universal concepts in the case of no-god clerics. That is, when the source of the spell is a domain list, it is a divine spell coming from there.

Easiest way to make the point to the DM on this is to tell him to go look at the Ranger spell list: Darkvision, a Ranger 3 spell, is also a Sorcerer/Wizard 2 spell. From the SRD:


Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list.

So there we have it, the SRD in black and white has pronounced Darkvision to be a divine spell. So does that mean the wizard has to go pray for that spell in the morning now, or is he still an arcane caster and is it still an arcane spell when he casts it?

The reverse applies to domain spells: it might not say it, but the damn things are divine spells when you're drawing off a domain's spell list as the source. If you're drawing from an arcane source of power for the same spell, it's an arcane spell.

Failing that, pull your Dragons out and kick in Alternate Source Spell: prepare your divine spells as arcane spells, and vice versa.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think you can also compare the list of divine and arcane spell scroll prices. Note the arcane and divine list are split and contain overlap. A spell can be both arcane or divine based on the casting class.

[Crake]

Just ask him: If the domain scroll isn't divine... is it arcane? It can't be neither, so does he really want to start setting the precedence that domain spells are arcane?

[16bearswutIdo]

It's my understanding that it depends on who scribes the scroll and what source of power it is drawn from. If a cleric scribes Haste using the Celerity domain, it'd be divine. If a wizard scribes Haste using his 3rd level slot, it'd be arcane. If a mystic theurge with access to Haste from both sources scribed it, he'd pick whether it was divine or arcane.

[Goaty14]

It can't be neither,

Any scroll made by an artificer is neither.

[Crake]

Any scroll made by an artificer is neither.

And where does it say that it's neither arcane or divine? They can attempt to make any magic item they want, but non arcane, non divine scrolls don't exist, and thus cannot be made. A scroll must be either arcane, or divine, and unless there are rules stating otherwise (which I cannot find at a cursory glance at the artificer item creation entry), you must make either one or the other.

[Silly Name]

Also, tell your DM that if domain spells are not divine spells, then Clerics shouldn't be able to cast them, because they cast divine spells.

A cleric's domain spells certainly count as divine when cast, or used to craft a scroll.

[Doctor Awkward]

And where does it say that it's neither arcane or divine? They can attempt to make any magic item they want, but non arcane, non divine scrolls don't exist, and thus cannot be made. A scroll must be either arcane, or divine, and unless there are rules stating otherwise (which I cannot find at a cursory glance at the artificer item creation entry), you must make either one or the other.

Eberron Campaign Setting errata:


Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered neither arcane nor divine.

[Fouredged Sword]

Unless he has access to an arcane or divine caster to help crafting, then it can be that type or the standard non-typed scroll.

In theory you could craft an divine scroll of an arcane only spell with an arcane caster and a divine caster working together as ether crafter can supply the spell and ether crafter can set the type. This is cheese though, and this should be disallowed so archivists do not bug every wizard they run across for a few spells to add to their prayer book as divine spells.

[heavyfuel]

Eberron Campaign Setting errata:

So no one can use them save for UMD. Huh.


Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells.

[Nifft]

So no one can use them save for UMD. Huh.

I kinda like that the Artificer empowers the party's Bard / Rogue / Warlock / DFA more than the party's Wizard, who doesn't need any help.

[AnonymousPepper]

I kinda like that the Artificer empowers the party's Bard / Rogue / Warlock / DFA more than the party's Wizard, who doesn't need any help.

Until he makes an item of +20 UMD to give away, gets the person in question to take a value rank in it, and then goes ham.

[Nifft]

Until he makes an item of +20 UMD to give away, gets the person in question to take a value rank in it, and then goes ham.

Meh, if you can push any custom homebrew item like that past your DM, then you don't need that item -- your DM is already sufficiently obedient to your whims.

If you did need that item because your DM is not yet sufficiently broken, then you might not get to have that item (because your DM is not yet sufficiently broken).

[Fouredged Sword]

Meh, if you can push any custom homebrew item like that past your DM, then you don't need that item -- your DM is already sufficiently obedient to your whims.

If you did need that item because your DM is not yet sufficiently broken, then you might not get to have that item (because your DM is not yet sufficiently broken).

By "custom item" you mean a poition of guidance of the avatar? Because that is how you get +20 to a UMD check on demand and turn that into any other spell in the game. It costs like 300gp and is cheapish by mid levels.

[Goaty14]

By "custom item" you mean a poition of guidance of the avatar? Because that is how you get +20 to a UMD check on demand and turn that into any other spell in the game. It costs like 300gp and is cheapish by mid levels.

Except a potion costs an action to use. Personally, "drink, fire, drink, fire, drink, etc" isn't a very good strategy unless you're getting off a pretty powerful spell effect.

[Nifft]

Until he makes an item of +20 UMD to give away, gets the person in question to take a value rank in it, and then goes ham.


By "custom item" you mean a poition of guidance of the avatar? Because that is how you get +20 to a UMD check on demand and turn that into any other spell in the game. It costs like 300gp and is cheapish by mid levels.

Ha ha ha, is that what AnonymousPepper meant? A one-shot potion? That's "going ham"?

Yeah whatever, go nuts with that 300 GP every other round -- if you want to beg to get that web content added to the game, go nuts.

Even if you did get the (frankly broken) spell included, making potions of it would be a very poorly optimized use of resources.

[ericgrau]

I had this discussion. My cleric had trickery domain which contains invisibility.

DM never in forced the ruling but yes if my cleric made invisibility it was devine in nature not arcane.

He hated his own ruling so he never did that to his players. BUT a cleric that get invisibility scroll is great. To me.

Here's something that may help your group (a rule, not a house rule): Unless the cleric with the invisibility scroll has the trickery domain, it's not on his spell list and therefore he still cannot use the scroll. A cleric with the trickery domain may use a scroll of invisibility (even if he hasn't prepared invisibility), but only if it's a divine scroll. A cleric with the trickery domain may use any wand of invisibility because wands aren't divine or arcane.

On topic I found this article that agrees that archivists can learn domain spells from scrolls: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061212

[Crake]

I kinda like that the Artificer empowers the party's Bard / Rogue / Warlock / DFA more than the party's Wizard, who doesn't need any help.

Except the wizard can just be the one doing the creation, with the artificer assisting to providethe spell component, resulting in an arcane scroll ANYWAY. It does mean that they need to work together to make new scrolls for the wizard, rather than each working individually to make double the scrolls, but if the wizard wasn't planning on making scrolls of spells he already knew anyway, it's no real loss for him.

Without a wizard, it's really the bard who gets screwed over, rather than the rogue/warlock/dfa being empowered. To the latter, they don't feel any changes, but to the former, he now has to roll a check to use scrolls he previously wouldn't have had to roll for. But fortunately, as before, if the bard just participates in the crafting process, he can provide the arcane caster level, while the artificer provides the spell component, to result in an arcane scroll.

[Doctor Awkward]

So no one can use them save for UMD. Huh.

Yup. I personally don't think that side-effect was unintended either. An artificer was rolling that check to use the scroll anyway, and it's better than the alternative, which is the artificer teaming up with the wizard and the archivist to get every spell in existence in their books.


Until he makes an item of +20 UMD to give away, gets the person in question to take a value rank in it, and then goes ham.
That's not going to do much for scrolls, which are 20 + caster level to activate.

For example, said character with a single rank in UMD and a +20 competence effect, if handed a scroll of time stop made by a 15th-level artificer would still have to roll a 14 or higher on his check to get it to work.


Except the wizard can just be the one doing the creation, with the artificer assisting to providethe spell component, resulting in an arcane scroll ANYWAY. It does mean that they need to work together to make new scrolls for the wizard, rather than each working individually to make double the scrolls, but if the wizard wasn't planning on making scrolls of spells he already knew anyway, it's no real loss for him.

Without a wizard, it's really the bard who gets screwed over, rather than the rogue/warlock/dfa being empowered. To the latter, they don't feel any changes, but to the former, he now has to roll a check to use scrolls he previously wouldn't have had to roll for. But fortunately, as before, if the bard just participates in the crafting process, he can provide the arcane caster level, while the artificer provides the spell component, to result in an arcane scroll.

Ehhhh...
Depends on how strictly you read the Prerequisite requirements for item creation.

DMG, pg. 215, "Prerequisites": (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites)

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect.

An artificer does none of those. He provides spell prerequisites through a Use Magic Device skill check. Now while this is certainly an exception to the standard requirements for creating magic items yourself, it is possibly not for the rules for cooperative magic item creation. In this instance a DM could rule that list definitive, and thus have a RAW-basis for preventing the wizard and the artificer from teaming up and adding every spell in existence to the wizard's spellbook.

[Falontani]

A divine crusader casts divine spells. She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain (see above). Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level). To prepare or cast a spell, a divine crusader must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The difficulty class for a saving throw against a divine crusader's spell is 10 + the spell level + the divine crusader's Cha modifier. The divine crusader also gets bonus spells based on her Charisma. A divine crusader prepares and casts spells as a cleric, except that she cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

A divine crusader casts divine spells. A divine crusader's spell list is ONLY spells from their chosen domain. So domain spells are divine spells.

[Monk of love]

Thank you everyone! Several of the rules references and the wizards archived article was enough to convince my DM that they are divine spells, especially since in the article on the wizards site, it states that archivists can learn domain spells and since archivists can only learn divine spells it clarified it enough that I can learn domain spells now!

[Fouredged Sword]

And arcane deciple turns domain spells into arcane spells, allowing an arcane caster with that feat to select a domain and cast the spells using their arcane casting 1/day per spell and use that casting ti make scrolls or magic items.