Champion Fix

[Trask]

I stumbled upon a post about a simple fix for the champion fighter and I wanted to share because I thought it was interesting. Of course this assumes that you think there is something wrong with the champion fighter, and from a DPR perspective I think there is. I also dont buy the line that it needs to be utterly lacking in any utility to make it easy, there are ways to give a class utility and not make it complex. I believe this fix comes close to that ideal.

Improved and Superior Critical are replaced with Champion's Might.
"Starting at level 3, you have 1 Champion die. The only number on a Champion dice is 20. Whenever you make an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw with your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution scores, after rolling, you can choose to substitute the result with that of a Champion die. You gain an additional champion die at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level. All champion dice are regained when you finish a short or long rest."

I like this for two reasons, one it is resource tracking but its not very difficult to keep track of. You could even line up your d20s with 20 on the face to remind you how many you have. Two it gives a very, simple and blunt utility to the champion that would make it feel like the heroic warrior its meant to be. Use your champion die on a stealth roll, use it on a roll to lift a portcullis, or just use it to hack a monster to bits.

Of course I'm not exactly sure whether it fixes the Champion's damage issues, or whether the progression of Champion dice is any good. But I thought it was an interesting fix to share.

[CTurbo]

I think DPR is the ONE thing the Champion is NOT lacking on. If I were to "fix" the Champion, I'd give it 1 solid trait for each of the other two pillars of the game. That is where I find it lacking. That is also why I think every Fighter( especially Champion) should take the Ritual Caster feat at some point.

[ImproperJustice]

Champions once they hit level 11 and above are solid.

[Lunali]

Your "fix" removes the one thing I like about champion and replaces it with the thing I like least about battlemaster.

[Theodoxus]

I went with making the Champion a bit more complex, because I don't think there should be an "entry level" or "dumbed down" class option. I've seen 7 year olds master wizards and an adult with Down's roleplay the heck out of a shadow monk... you wanna play something mindless, play Diablo 3.

The Champion (Revised)

The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows.
Martial Cadence

At 3rd level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Improved Critical. Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Cleaving Attack. Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Shield Bash. Once on each of your turns, you may take a bonus action to attack with your shield, dealing 1d4+Strength modifier on a hit. You may attempt to knock a large or smaller creature prone as part of this action. If you later take the Shield Master feat, you have advantage on the shove attempt.
Feint. You gain the ability to foil your opponent into opening their defenses. You can make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check as a bonus action, against the Wisdom (Perception) of an opponent within 10 feet of you. If you succeed, your attacks have advantage against the target until the end of your turn.
Impeccable Training

At 7th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Remarkable Athlete. Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.
In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases in feet equal to your Strength modifier.
Master Tactician. Gain proficiency in History and Persuasion. If already proficient in either skill, gain expertise instead. Also, you have advantage on these skill checks when interacting with person(s) of significance such as a General or Warlord, and you may cast Identify as a Ritual.
Cavalier. Gain proficiency in Animal Handling and Intimidation. If already proficient you gain expertise in them instead. While mounted, you have advantage on these checks, and mounting/dismounting only takes 5 ft. of movement instead of half.
Fighting Form

At 10th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Greater Critical. Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with Improved Critical.
Shield Wall. Allies within 5 feet of you gain +1 AC if you have a shield donned and you aren't incapacitated.
Whirlwind Attack. You can use your action to make a separate melee attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you. Your movement becomes 0 when you initiate your first attack with this ability.
Rending Strike. Once per turn, if you hit the same target two or more times with weapon attacks, you may deal an additional 1d8 + (Str or Dex, your choice) damage to them.
Defensive Form

At 15th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Survivor. You attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.
Armored Fortress. While wearing armor with a minimum strength requirement, you have resistance to non-magical weapon attacks.
Take Cover. While using a shield, you may use your reaction to gain three-quarters cover against all attacks until the beginning of your next turn.
Mastery of Combat

At 18th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Superior Critical. Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with both Improved and Greater Critical.
Powerful Strikes. Once per round, on a successful hit with a Heavy weapon, you can automatically knock a target prone if they are less than 2 sizes larger than you.
Pinpoint Accuracy. While wielding a weapon with the Finesse or Ranged property, if you miss with an attack, you can reroll that attack with disadvantage, once.
Einhander. While wielding a single, one-handed weapon and no other weapons, you may add both your strength and dexterity to hit and damage you deal with it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I went with making the Champion a bit more complex, because I don't think there should be an "entry level" or "dumbed down" class option. I've seen 7 year olds master wizards and an adult with Down's roleplay the heck out of a shadow monk... you wanna play something mindless, play Diablo 3.

The Champion (Revised)

The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows.
Martial Cadence

At 3rd level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Improved Critical. Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Cleaving Attack. Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Shield Bash. Once on each of your turns, you may take a bonus action to attack with your shield, dealing 1d4+Strength modifier on a hit. You may attempt to knock a large or smaller creature prone as part of this action. If you later take the Shield Master feat, you have advantage on the shove attempt.
Feint. You gain the ability to foil your opponent into opening their defenses. You can make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check as a bonus action, against the Wisdom (Perception) of an opponent within 10 feet of you. If you succeed, your attacks have advantage against the target until the end of your turn.
Impeccable Training

At 7th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Remarkable Athlete. Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.
In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases in feet equal to your Strength modifier.
Master Tactician. Gain proficiency in History and Persuasion. If already proficient in either skill, gain expertise instead. Also, you have advantage on these skill checks when interacting with person(s) of significance such as a General or Warlord, and you may cast Identify as a Ritual.
Cavalier. Gain proficiency in Animal Handling and Intimidation. If already proficient you gain expertise in them instead. While mounted, you have advantage on these checks, and mounting/dismounting only takes 5 ft. of movement instead of half.
Fighting Form

At 10th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Greater Critical. Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with Improved Critical.
Shield Wall. Allies within 5 feet of you gain +1 AC if you have a shield donned and you aren't incapacitated.
Whirlwind Attack. You can use your action to make a separate melee attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you. Your movement becomes 0 when you initiate your first attack with this ability.
Rending Strike. Once per turn, if you hit the same target two or more times with weapon attacks, you may deal an additional 1d8 + (Str or Dex, your choice) damage to them.
Defensive Form

At 15th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Survivor. You attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.
Armored Fortress. While wearing armor with a minimum strength requirement, you have resistance to non-magical weapon attacks.
Take Cover. While using a shield, you may use your reaction to gain three-quarters cover against all attacks until the beginning of your next turn.
Mastery of Combat

At 18th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
Superior Critical. Your critical hit range is increased by 1. This stacks with both Improved and Greater Critical.
Powerful Strikes. Once per round, on a successful hit with a Heavy weapon, you can automatically knock a target prone if they are less than 2 sizes larger than you.
Pinpoint Accuracy. While wielding a weapon with the Finesse or Ranged property, if you miss with an attack, you can reroll that attack with disadvantage, once.
Einhander. While wielding a single, one-handed weapon and no other weapons, you may add both your strength and dexterity to hit and damage you deal with it.

Don't think about it from a difficulty standpoint, think about it from a time saving standpoint. I think it's great that there's a class where little time is wasted in creation, combat and roleplaying. You've got your Dice and a backstory.

Some class options are just overloaded with bloat and fiddly bits, it can take several minutes (or hours in worst case scenarios) to get through a single encounter because of the sheer amount of things a character can do. If you think a Champion is boring, that's fine, but it's not a weakness for it to be simple.

[Speely]

Am I in the minority in thinking that Champions are totally fine? They are very effective, and their main draw (extra crit range) lends itself well to a variety of builds, both Str and Dex-based.

I mean, I get why people might ask for more/different stuff on paper, but in play, Champions kick ass.

2 fighting styles
Increased crit range
Better at physical stuff

It's pretty much the "I want to be a pure fighter" subclass. You are better at doing all the things you are already doing without having to use an extra resource.

And in a high-level campaign? Holy hell. 15% chance to crit is crazy good, especially considering all the other options you will probably have at that point.

Yeah, Champs are only good at one thing, but they are really good at it.

[LudicSavant]

Champions fill a niche kind of like the "noob tube" in Call of Duty. Very easy to use. Can help a new player get in immediately and get some kills with very low system mastery. But at high levels of system mastery it basically becomes irrelevant. They only do one thing, and they're not the best in the game at said thing.

[Naanomi]

So... only five times better than the rogue 20th level capstone?

[Mr.Spastic]

Am I in the minority in thinking that Champions are totally fine? They are very effective, and their main draw (extra crit range) lends itself well to a variety of builds, both Str and Dex-based.

I mean, I get why people might ask for more/different stuff on paper, but in play, Champions kick ass.

2 fighting styles
Increased crit range
Better at physical stuff

It's pretty much the "I want to be a pure fighter" subclass. You are better at doing all the things you are already doing without having to use an extra resource.

And in a high-level campaign? Holy hell. 15% chance to crit is crazy good, especially considering all the other options you will probably have at that point.

Yeah, Champs are only good at one thing, but they are really good at it.

I agree with this one. It melds well with alot of simple builds but is still very effective. It also doesn't encourage planning out your character like some other fighter subclasses. My favorite thing is giving them both dueling and protector/defense fighting style. Great hits and better defense. They are simple to play but I don't think that they are bad at all. They are pure frontline fighters that adhere to the "Group up, and hit it tell it DIES!" Strategy.

They work great with the great weapon master feat because crits auto hit and allow for the bonus attack.

[History_buff]

I have a warlock/fighter 9/4 multiclass character with gwm champion archetype. I’ve done almost 100 points of damage in one turn with three crits and 5 attacks. (Action surge plus GWM bonus action).

Champions can turn something into paste with a little luck and advantage.

[Malifice]

If I were to "fix" the Champion, I'd give it 1 solid trait for each of the other two pillars of the game. That is where I find it lacking.

That's what feats are for.

If you want to do more in the other pillars use some of those bonus feats you learn on feats that work into those pillars.

[Nifft]

That's what feats are for.

If you want to do more in the other pillars use some of those bonus feats you learn on feats that work into those pillars.

Disagree.

Eldritch Knight gets the same number of feats, but can do a lot more out of combat thanks to having spells as a class ability.

It's true that Champion gets feats, but it's not accurate to think that getting feats compensates for the Champion's dearth of non-combat abilities.

-- --- --

Anyway, my thoughts on fixing the Champion:

Recognized Champion - Pick a nation, state, organization, or ideal. This is your cause. You are recognized as a champion of your chosen cause by people associated with your cause, and you can call upon them for resources and support.

It's roughly equivalent in power to a Background perk, but it's got a hell of a lot of RP depth, and can help ground the character into pretty much any setting.

Not sure what level it should kick in -- 7th or 10th, either seems appropriate.

[Mith]

Disagree.

Eldritch Knight gets the same number of feats, but can do a lot more out of combat thanks to having spells as a class ability.

It's true that Champion gets feats, but it's not accurate to think that getting feats compensates for the Champion's dearth of non-combat abilities.

-- --- --

Anyway, my thoughts on fixing the Champion:

Recognized Champion - Pick a nation, state, organization, or ideal. This is your cause. You are recognized as a champion of your chosen cause by people associated with your cause, and you can call upon them for resources and support.

It's roughly equivalent in power to a Background perk, but it's got a hell of a lot of RP depth, and can help ground the character into pretty much any setting.

Not sure what level it should kick in -- 7th or 10th, either seems appropriate.

When does the etiquitte feature for bonus to Persision rolls for Samaurai happen? That could be a good parallel.

[Crgaston]

Samurai gets that at 7, along with Wis save proficiency.

The only thing I'd change about Champion would be to have Remarkable Athlete apply to ability checks you are proficient in as well as those you aren't, and maybe add another proficiency that uses a mental stat.

[thoroughlyS]

Eldritch Knight gets the same number of feats, but can do a lot more out of combat thanks to having spells as a class ability.
To be fair, the Eldritch Knight mostly chooses from Abjuration and Evocation, two schools not known for their out-of-combat utility. You do get some nice treats like darkness and dispel magic, but you're still a Fighter and the thing you do best is fighting.

[mephnick]

I allow Remarkable Athlete to work regardless of proficiency

[JNAProductions]

I allow Remarkable Athlete to work regardless of proficiency

Honestly, that's all I'd do too.

Champion is fine as-is. It could use some minor tweaks up, but it's hardly going to ruin someone's fun if their DPR ain't maximum possible.

[guachi]

I allow Remarkable Athlete to work regardless of proficiency

This. Or this and also give you expertise in Athletics. Or not this and give you expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics.

But probably just this.

[Speely]

I allow Remarkable Athlete to work regardless of proficiency

I like this fairly harmless but useful modification quite a bit. Stealing it! It fits the theme of the subclass and makes the Champ a bit more heroic.

[MeeposFire]

I find the champion to be fine. I think the biggest issue that people end up having is that they are the sort that wants more active abilities from the subclass itself/or they want more resource management or they want to make changes that emphasis more of what they think it should do.

I fit more of the second one (though to be clear it does not NEED a change but I do like some these changes anyway).

My changes end up being related to giving champions extra prof at 3rd level (notice that most fighter sub classes get two or more abilities at 1st level and in many cases one of those abilities relate to prof) in this case the new prof is in using improvised weapons, unarmed attacks (1d4 dmg), and the ability to make improvised shields and armor (al of which are worse than actual armor and shields so it is more fluff than anything but if it does come up the player feels really cool).

I change remarkable athlete so that now in addition to the original ability the character can choose one skill that is associated with a physical ability score they already apply their prof bonus to you can now double the bonus. IN addition size restrictions on essentially all physical maneuvers are removed though if the maneuver is attempted against a target that would normally be illegal there is a penalty applied (maneuvers would include grapple, shove, etc).

In addition to the extra fighting style the champion can choose one style and have it always apply. Makes them feel special and allows potentially for a limited form of stacking which can be potent but remember you are doing 10 levels of fighter at this point so you should get something nice.

Stuff like that I feel keeps the intent of the sub class (no new resources to maintain and boosting mostly what you already do) but gives it some real unique edges and gives it some real appeal (grapplers and trippers will love this as will anyone that has ever wanted to get and use more fighting styles at once).

Once again these are not needed as the sub class is fine as is but I do think it makes it work better for my games in that it does some things my players have really wanted in a fun package.

[djreynolds]

Unfortunately, the classes and subclasses are not IMO, intended to be equals.

Want to play an ace fighter pilot, go paladin. Want to play a grunt, go champion.

I have had many "fixes" for the champion, some work and some do not.

This idea, is great. Its like "legendary" attacks. I like it, try it out and see how it goes. It sounds cool right. But it may rub divination wizards the wrong way.

In defense of the champion, maneuvers and spells can run out quickly.

A battlemaster can be out of maneuvers in a few rounds.

War magic is cool, but you're giving up 2 attacks with your primary stat (pre-booming blade) for a cantrip keying off your 14 intelligence.

In opposition to the champion, critical hits are lame. Remarkable Athlete only looks good when you chop it up.

If you want to tie in social and exploration, you could connect it to your critical hits.

Every time you score a critical hit you gain an inspiration die you can use on a charisma based skill check, "nothing like shooting out a giant's eye to make you feel full of yourself."

I like stuff like that.

[Rhedyn]

I would move remarkable athlete to level 3.

7: Champion's strike, roll a d10 with every attack roll, if the result is higher than your d20, use the d10 result instead.

15: Champion's smash, roll a d10 with weapon damage rolls, if the result of the d10 is higher than the result of your weapon dice, use the d10 instead.

Both these features are failure protections rather than increasing the chance of crits which do minor extra damage.

[Damon_Tor]

Probably the best fix to Chamption would be to replace the increased crit range with an extra damage dice on each attack, starting small, like 1d4 and improving to 1d10 at level 20. Then maybe replace gifted athlete with some kind of bonus to saves, maybe add 1d6 to every save. Survivor and Extra Fighting Style are fine, they can stay.

[Nifft]

Honestly, that's all I'd do too.

Champion is fine as-is. It could use some minor tweaks up, but it's hardly going to ruin someone's fun if their DPR ain't maximum possible.

I mean you're mostly right. Champion mostly works fine as-is.

But talking about DPR is ignoring the parts of Champion where it doesn't always work fine.

[DanyBallon]

Probably the best fix to Chamption would be to replace the increased crit range with an extra damage dice on each attack, starting small, like 1d4 and improving to 1d10 at level 20. Then maybe replace gifted athlete with some kind of bonus to saves, maybe add 1d6 to every save. Survivor and Extra Fighting Style are fine, they can stay.

This is what WotC did with the UA Brute and as for my experience as playing one (currently level 8) in a group with two Champion fighter as well, it feel a bit lackluster, the extra dice looks good on paper but doesn't add much compare to crits or sneak attack.

The Brute d6 to save is nice though

If I was to use mechanic from OP, I'd try replace the scaling dice from the Brute instead to see how it compares.

[R.Shackleford]

The things that need to be "fixed" with the champion actually isn't their improved critical. Though you could expand upon that.

Remarkable Athlete and Extra Fighting Style needs more help. RA doesn't actually do much of anything useful and EFS is just lazy design... I mean... I already didn't pick that fighting style at level 1, level 10 should give me something better than something I said no to at level 1.

Like, I don't care for the Champion, but their DPR is the one thing that they have going for them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Moving Remarkable Athlete down to 3rd, and allowing it to stack with normal Proficiency, is a good start-- that's your one noncombat ability, you shouldn't have to wait so long to get it and it shouldn't be so crappy when you do.

[R.Shackleford]

Moving Remarkable Athlete down to 3rd, and allowing it to stack with normal Proficiency, is a good start-- that's your one noncombat ability, you shouldn't have to wait so long to get it and it shouldn't be so crappy when you do.

My group has a champion coming in, we're thinking something like...


Remarkable Athlete

Starting at 3rd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make. This does not stack with other features or abilities such as Expertise or Jack of All Trades.

In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier plus your proficiency bonus.

[GreyBlack]

I stumbled upon a post about a simple fix for the champion fighter and I wanted to share because I thought it was interesting. Of course this assumes that you think there is something wrong with the champion fighter, and from a DPR perspective I think there is. I also dont buy the line that it needs to be utterly lacking in any utility to make it easy, there are ways to give a class utility and not make it complex. I believe this fix comes close to that ideal.

Improved and Superior Critical are replaced with Champion's Might.
"Starting at level 3, you have 1 Champion die. The only number on a Champion dice is 20. Whenever you make an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw with your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution scores, after rolling, you can choose to substitute the result with that of a Champion die. You gain an additional champion die at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level. All champion dice are regained when you finish a short or long rest."

I like this for two reasons, one it is resource tracking but its not very difficult to keep track of. You could even line up your d20s with 20 on the face to remind you how many you have. Two it gives a very, simple and blunt utility to the champion that would make it feel like the heroic warrior its meant to be. Use your champion die on a stealth roll, use it on a roll to lift a portcullis, or just use it to hack a monster to bits.

Of course I'm not exactly sure whether it fixes the Champion's damage issues, or whether the progression of Champion dice is any good. But I thought it was an interesting fix to share.

Call me a noob, but I don't see the need to add complexity. Not all classes have to have options out the wazoo, and for some games, all you really need is a monster DPR class.

In DBZ, everyone loves the complex relationship between the major characters; Vegeta's complex relationship with future Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo's complex relationship, etc. But sometimes, when push comes to shove, all you want is to get Goku in there to punch it really hard.

And, most of the time? That mentality is more effective than all of the tricks and techniques that everyone else has. Not all the time, but definitely some of the time.

[Willie the Duck]

I went with making the Champion a bit more complex, because I don't think there should be an "entry level" or "dumbed down" class option. I've seen 7 year olds master wizards and an adult with Down's roleplay the heck out of a shadow monk... you wanna play something mindless, play Diablo 3.

The class that most resembles TSR-era, OSR-style, no-gamist-limited-use-special-powers fighters is now the most video-game-like? I have to say, that's a new one on me.

Regardless, I'm with most everyone else-the champion is mostly fine as is. What it doesn't have is quite as good synergy with other mechanical widgets. EK's with war caster and Booming Blade have great battlefield control. Battlemasters can add a dice to a low roll to synergize with Great Weapon Master feat. The Champion, not so much. There are some crit fishing builds, but nothing that stands out as an obvious good choice.

I like the suggestion others have given about RA. Another good option is giving them a good save at 7th like the Samurai (and emulating the fighter of old even more, in that they had relatively good saves).

[opaopajr]

Most I would add is an additional clause to Remarkable Athlete: And due to great reflexive coordination, the Champion can Ready as a Bonus Action.

That alone opens up his utility in tense Explore and Social situations when rounds are used. :smallsmile: It is also a useful way for the Champion to do more stuff in Combat, too. Sort of a back door Cunning Action for Dash along with other open-ended utility. :smallcool:

[Jerrykhor]

Most I would add is an additional clause to Remarkable Athlete: And due to great reflexive coordination, the Champion can Ready as a Bonus Action.

That alone opens up his utility in tense Explore and Social situations when rounds are used. :smallsmile: It is also a useful way for the Champion to do more stuff in Combat, too. Sort of a back door Cunning Action for Dash along with other open-ended utility. :smallcool:

The only thing it opens up is players using it to guarantee 1 more attack through reaction:smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

The first issue is with fighters, unfortunately, players focus on primary stats like attack, constitution, and maybe some wisdom because of saves.

Often charisma and intelligence are dumped, because the bonuses to the stats are not affecting spells or class powers. And so the charisma and intelligence skills are usually not selected either.

Players are grabbing athletics/acrobatics, perception, survival. I do the same when making an optimized fighter, and so I cannot find fault.

The other issue, is if you added bumps or powers associated to charisma, wisdom or intelligence, it makes for multiclassing min/maxing.

What I have tried recently, and it worked, is for every critical hit a champion scores I have given players advantage on their next skill check or add their champion level to their next skill check (the later was done so players would stay in the class and not just dip). It expires on a short rest, you could do long rests and possibly allow players to save the bonuses.

But I also, added a twist, roll a 1 and you subtract your champion level on your next skill check or eats up a bonus from a previous critical hit.

Its more fun. Still rolling dice, and you're really not sure what you next skill check is going to be

[Pex]

The first issue is with fighters, unfortunately, players focus on primary stats like attack, constitution, and maybe some wisdom because of saves.

Often charisma and intelligence are dumped, because the bonuses to the stats are not affecting spells or class powers. And so the charisma and intelligence skills are usually not selected either.

Players are grabbing athletics/acrobatics, perception, survival. I do the same when making an optimized fighter, and so I cannot find fault.

The other issue, is if you added bumps or powers associated to charisma, wisdom or intelligence, it makes for multiclassing min/maxing.

What I have tried recently, and it worked, is for every critical hit a champion scores I have given players advantage on their next skill check or add their champion level to their next skill check (the later was done so players would stay in the class and not just dip). It expires on a short rest, you could do long rests and possibly allow players to save the bonuses.

But I also, added a twist, roll a 1 and you subtract your champion level on your next skill check or eats up a bonus from a previous critical hit.

Its more fun. Still rolling dice, and you're really not sure what you next skill check is going to be

It's not "unfortunately". Supporting your attack stat is what you are supposed to do. Fighters hit things. They're supposed to try to hit things as often as possible doing as much damage as possible, ergo they focus on their attack stat. They also get hit a lot because they're in melee a lot. They need every hit point they can get. I'm a firm believer in the Adventurer's Tax. All PCs should have at least a 14 in CO. Whether a player wants his fighter's CO higher is personal choice. Some players are perfectly fine having only a 14 in their attack stat to allow higher scores in other areas. Hooray for them. They're not superior players because of it.

Fighters choose Athletics/Acrobatic the way wizards choose Knowledge Arcana. It's almost a class feature and only getting one other proficiency. It's also prudent because you need one of them to defend against being grappled, tripped, or disarmed. As for Perception and Survival, they're not universally chosen. It's usually enough for only one or two PCs to have proficiency in them. The number of times it matters for an individual PC not having proficiency is low enough you can just deal with it and move on. You can't be absolutely perfect in everything nor do you need to be.

[djreynolds]

It's not "unfortunately". Supporting your attack stat is what you are supposed to do. Fighters hit things. They're supposed to try to hit things as often as possible doing as much damage as possible, ergo they focus on their attack stat. They also get hit a lot because they're in melee a lot. They need every hit point they can get. I'm a firm believer in the Adventurer's Tax. All PCs should have at least a 14 in CO. Whether a player wants his fighter's CO higher is personal choice. Some players are perfectly fine having only a 14 in their attack stat to allow higher scores in other areas. Hooray for them. They're not superior players because of it.

Fighters choose Athletics/Acrobatic the way wizards choose Knowledge Arcana. It's almost a class feature and only getting one other proficiency. It's also prudent because you need one of them to defend against being grappled, tripped, or disarmed. As for Perception and Survival, they're not universally chosen. It's usually enough for only one or two PCs to have proficiency in them. The number of times it matters for an individual PC not having proficiency is low enough you can just deal with it and move on. You can't be absolutely perfect in everything nor do you need to be.

True, but that's the where scoring critical hits could be fun.

Ain't nothing like chopping of a goblin's head to feel awesome, and the champion brings that to his/her next task... that confidence.

But nothing is worse that dropping your sword when roll a one, and now you feel awful and it affects you for a bit.

Its a fun fix, try it.