Philosophy & alignment concerns

[Malapterus]

Hello again! I am going through some ideas and trying to establish a believable setting, in which it's not horrendously obvious that something unsavory is going on below the surface, but also believable that it is. Help me out by assigning alignments to the following thoughts, and then later there are some concepts I want to know if you find believable.

-----

"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society."

"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist."

"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people."

"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society."

"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it."

*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior."

**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness."

***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed."

"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature."

"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society."

"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy."

"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people."

"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose."

"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive."

"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own."

*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to."

**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders."

"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me."

"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few."

"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced."

"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule."

"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for."

"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world."

"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults."

"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring."

"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me."

"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal."

"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony."

*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever."

"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it."

"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed."

"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow."

"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key."

"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have."

"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves."

"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society."

"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!"

"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands."

"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast."

------
Okay, so some of those might be obvious, and the perspective does start to splinter there partway though, but I'd appreciate people who humor me.

Here are some thoughts I want to know of sound agreeable:

"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain."

"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me."

"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace."

"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right."

"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here."

[16bearswutIdo]

This is terribly formatted for an easy response, but I'll take a whack at it. Just gonna put my thoughts after each quote.


Hello again! I am going through some ideas and trying to establish a believable setting, in which it's not horrendously obvious that something unsavory is going on below the surface, but also believable that it is. Help me out by assigning alignments to the following thoughts, and then later there are some concepts I want to know if you find believable.

-----

"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society." LE

"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist." LN/LE

"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people." LN, not really an alignment statement so much as it is a reflection on personal arrogance

"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society." LE

"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it." LN-LE depending on what sort of "responsibility" they're referring to

*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior." Extremely LE

**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness." LE-NE

***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed." Still extremely LE

"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature." LE

"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society." LN

"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy." LE because of the inflexibility of the statement

"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people." LG-NG

"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose." NG-LN

"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive." Lawful, other part of the axis depends on what "rules and purpose" means in this context

"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own." NE

*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to." NE

**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders." NE

"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me." N

"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few." LN AT ABSOLUTE BEST, 99% of the time LE in practice

"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced." CE

"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule." LG or LN depending on the extent of "full freedom not being something I believe in"

"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for." CE

"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world." CG, best alignment

"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults." N, has no lean one way or the other

"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring." LN

"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me." NE

"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal." Meaningless without knowing the character's motivations, but based off the other quotes so far this person is probably really evil. So probably NE

"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony." CE, justifying any actions they've ever taken

*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever." NE

"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it." N

"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed." N

"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow." NE

"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key." Pretty meaningless without knowing the character's motivations to become a God.

"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have." LE

"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves." NG or CG

"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society." NG

"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!" Weeb **** nyah, but probably LE since this is basically just Zarus

"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands." Same as above

"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast." Too generic to assign a meaning. Could be said by someone who basically means "when life gives you lemons" or could be said by someone who means "let them eat cake"

------
Okay, so some of those might be obvious, and the perspective does start to splinter there partway though, but I'd appreciate people who humor me.

Here are some thoughts I want to know of sound agreeable:

"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain." Agree

"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me." Strongly disagree. STRONGLY DISAGREE.

"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace." Agree, if that's what this Orc thinks.

"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right." This is objectively incorrect, I dunno what other opinion could possibly be formed.

"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here." This is his choice. His premise isn't incorrect, and I'm not evaluating his personal opinion on his status. I wouldn't like that, but "I'm" not this guy.

[Pleh]

"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society."

Meh. Trends mostly Lawful, but even Good characters could say this if they aren't part of the saintly exalted brigade. It's only off limits to the hyper good aligned.


"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist."

Racial prejudice probably trends evil, but it's not enough by itself to ping anything past neutral. A good character could have a prejudice flaw and not fall to the dark side until it made them actually do something evil as a result.

The value of all life trends good and lawful, though. Seems fitting for a Lawful Stuckup aligned paladin (especially if you want the racial prejudice to become part of the character's long term development arc, for better or worse).


"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people."

Pings pretty lawful, but a neutral on law and chaos could still adopt it without shifting if they don't much act on it.

Good or evil could adopt this mentality, but they'll go in opposite directions applying it, in most cases.

It fits Chaos, too, if "what's best for everyone" is a "live and let live" paradigm.


"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society."

We're using the ends to justify the means here, which will always trend evil (since we wouldn't need to justify anything if it wasn't trending evil). Again, how heavily it swings on alignment will depend on exactly what behaviors it inspires you to do.


"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it."

Lawful to a substantial degree and trending evil out of callous disregard for others on the basis of criminal behavior.


*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior."

This addition pushes more solidly into Evil as it begins to express actual malice and cruelty against other living beings without a concept of mercy or rehabilitation of those individuals.


**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness."

Conspiracy. We are now deep in the territory of textbook lawful evil tyranny.


***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed."

Neutral and barely trending good. Certainly no where near good enough to offset the fact that we're describing a machiavellian state. The fact that it's more rational than not changes almost nothing. It seems good aligned to care for the sick, but it's clear the speaker cares less about the sick and more about keeping them in a fit state to serve. You're not being compassionate. You're investing in your capital.


"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature."

The four nations lived in harmony until the fire nation attacked.

Yeah, more textbook lawful evil propoganda. Let's go ahead and Red Fel Red Fel Red Fel on this whole thing.


"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society."

Not aligned, or neutral. The concept is abstract when devoid of context. It will have more teeth in alignment when the rubber hits the road and we start to see what this distinction between equity and equality means for the people being affected by it.


"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy."

This is where I wish there was a Fanaticism alignment axis. Almost any alignment with sufficient fanaticism coild say this. It's extremely SOMETHING, but exactly what depends on the nature of the "balance" being defended.


"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people."

Neutral. Materialism vs pragmaticism vaguely trends evil for greed association, but nothing reads strong enough to end up aligned anywhere.

The idea of charity to the common folk is Good, but it's clearly a pragmatic tactic and not a compassionate gesture.


"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose."

We see a soft ping from each alignment here, making it trend neutral.


"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive."

Lawful Fanatical with a hint of evil from that disregard for others.


"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own."

Mostly just lawful. There's a smattering of self centeredness to the thought that trends evil.


*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to."

**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders."

When your war machine conquers all the rest of the world, there won't be any outsiders.

Very totalitarian and tyrannical, but only situationally evil


"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me."

Again, vanity and pride trend evil, even if their estimation of self worth is accurate. This places the value of the society over the individuals that comprise it, which is putting the cart before the horse, imo.

So again, lawful evil, but not so stronglg as some of the others.


"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few."

Despite the woefully flawed economic theory, this alignment touches on things that aren't totally settled in the real world. Not that I want to bring any of that into this discussion, but it means that any given fictional setting might peg the moral alignment on this statement differently depending on who wrote it.

Spock said, "the needs of the many outweigh the few or the one," but he meant that justified sacrificing himself, despite how valuable he was to starfleet. Choosing to sacrifice yourself for this value pings Good. Choosing to triage others against their will trends Evil. But it's a relatively subjective bit.


"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced."

Betrayal of allies for personal gain (yes, that's what this is, YOU want the world under your thumb and you insist they be perfect for you) is definitively evil. There's a bit of lawful here


"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule."

Begrudgingly doing good means you don't get good alignment points. Lawful neutral.


"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for."

Well, actually this depends on WHY. Why do you need to propogate your traits? If the world was about to end and only your mutants would survive, but the need to gros in number to do so, there might be an alignment here that isn't just purely lawful evil coming from a narcissistic entitled brat.


"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world."

Neutral. Possibly trending chaotic with the freedom aspects.


"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults."

Meh. Kinda neutral. Again, the "I prefer" start makes it feel less like you care about what they want and you like dressing up your dolls as academics. Trends evil in context with everything else, but neutral in isolation.


"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring."

Meh. Neutral. Looking forward to this because it would be so satisfying to see the kid irrevocably ruin everything immediately.


"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me."

More conspiracies for power. Lawful evil.


"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal."

Ambitious and fanatical, but not aligned in and of itself.


"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony."

As soon as we start having to justify things, we've already done something evil. Trying to justify everything at once just about guarantees that the justification has failed.

Not to mention that the idea of "living in harmony" is distorted here, since the people in question have no choice. They're not living in harmony, just doing what they're told.


*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever."

Yeah, yeah. We get you're lawful evil already.


"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it."

Stupid aligned. Why not just become immortal rather than taking anything to your grave?

I guess it's neutral. Hard to work without knowing more about the consequences of the choice.


"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed."

Meh. Stealing land by displacing thousands or millions isn't the worst thing, but it's not great. Neutral


"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow."

Evil, but only marginally so. You could have set up non violent trade relations instead of pillaging.


"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key."

Meh. Need input. I'm almost to the point reading all this that I'm rooting for the end of the world to win.


"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have."

Not hurting yourself is neutral.


"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves."

Neutral trending chaotic.


"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society."

Kinda good aligned, but not much more than neutral.


"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!"

"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands."

Meh. More fanatical than anything.


"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast."

Dunno. Probably trends chaotic with a hint of good (for avoiding violence). Mostly neutral

I'll tackle the second stub later.

[DeTess]

Note that I generally consider LE to also be the alignment of 'the ends justify the means' taken to the extreme.



"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society." LN/LE

"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist." Any Neutral/LE

"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people." LN/LE

"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society." LN/LE

"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it." LN/LE

*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior." LE

**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness." LE

***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed." LG/LN in isolation. With the other * things together, it's still LE.

"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature." LE, assuming that LE evil is also the alignment for 'ends justify the means'.

"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society." LN

"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy." LE

"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people."Any good

"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose." LG. Note that this statement is LG in my opinion, but it could easily be stated by a smart LN/LE despot.

"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive." Any lawful

"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own." LN/LE

*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to." LN

**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders." LE

"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me." LN

"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few." LN/LE

"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced." CN/NE, depending on wetehr the society is actually perfect for everyone (CN), or merely perfect for the oppresor (NE)

"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule." LG

"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for." LE

"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world." CG

"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults." LG

"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring." LG/LN

"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me." LE

"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal." Any non-good.

"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony." LN/LE

*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever." Any, depending on circumstances

"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it." Any neutral, LE

"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed." LE

"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow." LE

"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key." LE, (maybe LN depending on how the 'exile' worked out exactly).

"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have." LE

"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves." CG, any neutral, LE, NE, depending on context

"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society." any good

"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!" Any non-good

"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands." Any non-good

"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast." Any? I can't parse this one using the alignment system

------
Okay, so some of those might be obvious, and the perspective does start to splinter there partway though, but I'd appreciate people who humor me.

Here are some thoughts I want to know of sound agreeable: I assume you mean believable? There are stances I think are very believable, but not very agreeable. I'm answering this assuming you meant believable.

"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain." Sure. This is a man that prefers the freedom of nature over the affluence of the city. I wouldn't agree, but it is believable.

"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me." Very believable, but I wouldn't enjoy a society like that, and start looking to move elsewhere.

"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace." This attitude can be commendable, if true, and can be quite believable. I would be careful to let my race define me though.

"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right." believable, and as long as the first holds true, I see no reason to doubt the second.

"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here."Believable, and I hate to say it, but I'd probably agree as well.

[Selion]

"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society." LN

"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist." LE

"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people." LE

"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society." LN

"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it." LN/LE

*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior."

**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness."

***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed."

"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature." LE

"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society." LN

"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy." NE?

"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people." NG

"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose."NE?

"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive." LN

"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own." LN

*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to."

**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders."

"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me." LE

"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few." N

"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced." LE

"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule." LG

"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for." NE

"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world.N

"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults." LG/LN

"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring." LE

"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me." NE

"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal." NE

"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony." LE

*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever."

"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it." N

"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed." LE

"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow." NE

"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key." N

"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have." NE

"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves." N

"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society." NG

"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!" NE

"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands." NE

"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast." CN

------
Okay, so some of those might be obvious, and the perspective does start to splinter there partway though, but I'd appreciate people who humor me.

Here are some thoughts I want to know of sound agreeable:

"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain."

"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me."

"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace." orc paladin FTW

"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right."

"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here."

[Telonius]

Responses bolded below.


Hello again! I am going through some ideas and trying to establish a believable setting, in which it's not horrendously obvious that something unsavory is going on below the surface, but also believable that it is. Help me out by assigning alignments to the following thoughts, and then later there are some concepts I want to know if you find believable.

-----

"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society." - LN

"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist." N, leaning NE

"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people." N, leaning LE

"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society." ... it depends on just how far that "any means necessary" goes. Probably E.

"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it." Definitely L. Could be G, N, or E depending on how harsh the "removed from it" is. (Reform education vs. jail vs. exile vs. execution)

*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior." Yep, LE.

**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness." LE.

***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed." Still LE.

"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature."LE

"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society."LN, leaning LG

"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy."LE

"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people." Very slightly L. It doesn't really involve respect or disrespect for life, rights, or hierarchy. At most it's about maintaining tradition, but is more about how to effectively budget than it is about alignment questions.

"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose." Somewhat contradictory statement. What's the more important motivation here, maintaining the rule or helping the people? If the rule it's Lg. If helping the people, lG.

"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive." LN

"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own." LN

*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to." LN

**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders." LE

"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me." Another contradictory statement. If the speaker couldn't sacrifice to preserve them, than their own life is more important to them than their people. I'll call it N. It's not going out of its way to harm the people, but Look Out for Number One is the rule here.

"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few." LE

"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced." Stupid Evil

"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule." N

"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for." CE

"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world." CN

"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults." NG

"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring." LG

"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me." CE

"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal." LN

"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony." Depends on what the means and motivations are. Assuming they're Evil - otherwise why would you need to justify them - NE

*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever." LE

"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it." Not really alignment-relevant

"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed." LE

"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow." NE

"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key." Not really alignment relevant

"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have." [Evil obviously. Otherwise not really alignment relevant.]

"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves." CN

"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society." LG

"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!" LE

"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands." LE

"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast." Slightly G, probably C.

------
Okay, so some of those might be obvious, and the perspective does start to splinter there partway though, but I'd appreciate people who humor me.

Here are some thoughts I want to know of sound agreeable: Like the other guy, not sure exactly what you're asking here. I'll give my personal opinions on what I'd think of somebody who says something like this.

"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain." Seems reasonable.

"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me." Yeah, you're part of the problem.

"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace." Good for you! Let me know if you need any help with the book-learning stuff.

"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right." How are you able to walk and breathe at the same time?

"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here." I'm glad you're living the life you want to be living.

[Paleomancer]

"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society."
Difficult, could be any one really. Truly good alignments emphasize the importance of free will, so forcing people into “good” is as extremist a viewpoint as any other fanatic. It is a conditional statement, “contributing their share,” so seems more lawful. Plus, define what is meant by “Evil” — for example, are they a casual bigot (in which case killing them is murder and arresting them may be too extreme) or do they carry out acts of evil on a regular basis (in which case having them free is an open threat to other people and is thus stupid and irresponsible)?


"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist."
Sounds like Elves. Lawful Neutral, maybe certain Good alignments of an arrogant nature, could also be Lawful Evil of a more Lawful bent.


"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people."


"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society."
Lawful evil.


"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it."
Judgmental Lawful Neutral, or any Lawful Evil.


*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior."
Definitive Lawful Evil.


**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness."
Lawful Evil Conspiracy


***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed."
Lawful Evil, but clarify what is meant by “refusal.” Sufficient to state that historically “refusal” and “inability” were almost invariably and consistently conflated as equivalent (No more to avoid violating forum rules). Exceptions typically exist only when of the ruling class (and sometimes not even then), when unavoidable (war veterans, old age), or when good for propaganda (war veterans).


"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature."
Lawful Evil — If “peaceful, satisfying, safe” was truly so self-evident, no need for conquest is necessary, just demonstration.


"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society."
Equality = state or quality of being equal, elements of fairness. Equity = quality of being impartial, fair, just. Mincing words here, so Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil.


"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy."
Overeaction to perceived threats. Depends on what “balance” means and who could threaten it. More fanatic than anything, but could be any alignment.


"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people."
Could be any, maintaining power is something every authority of any alignment has to do to some degree. This is still more Lawful Neutral than Good, though.


"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose."
Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil. Macchiavelli makes it clear it is better to be loved than feared, and certainly one should never seek to be hated.


"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive."
Define “pure freedom...” But overall I’d say Lawful Evil, maybe borderline Lawful Neutral. With an Anti-Chaotic bent.


"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own."
Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil.


*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to."
Lawful Evil first sentence, True Neutral for people mentioned in the second sentence.


**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders."
Stupid Evil. Great way to get the local equivalent of warships to threaten your ports and blockade your internal trade.


"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me."
Neutral evil — I am the land, nation, etc.; my people are merely a resource.


"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few."
Order 13, Lawful Evil justification for atrocities coming right up. It’s only heroic (but not necessarily good either) when justifying your own personal sacrifice, or asking others to help you defend your society. It’s one thing to recognize you cannot save everyone (a RL practical issue) and another to say one is justified to sacrifice a lesser number for a greater number at any point, which is what this implies.


"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced."
Lawful Evil.


"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule."
Pragmatic Lawful Evil or Ruthless Lawful Neutral. Nothing about Slavery as oppression of living beings with intrinsic worth, so nothing Good nor Chaotic here.


"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for."
Example of a near-positive (but non-good) example — a global plague kills people and medicine/healing magic is useless, except for those who have a strange immunity. Propogating immunity is thus a means to insure the people survive. Otherwise, a very negative approach that is quite self-interested. Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil, given the degree to which they would go; more neutral otherwise.


"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world."
Chaotic, definitely naive and probably has a very specific idea of what consitutes a “true” idea or thought. To give a basic and relatively non-controversial example, part of the reason that Spiders probably don’t have too many eusocial species is that “I want to eat you” isn’t great for teambuilding, but this character probably would claim this isn’t what they mean, even though it fits their definition precisely — spiders don’t have languages and so their ideas are always contained to one individual.


"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults."
Key word: prefer. Could be good or neutral, probably lawful/neutral and not chaotic (organized education requires a lot of rules and regulations to enforce in RL).


"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring."
Any alignment, though that depends on immortality method and what is meant by “perfect.”


"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me."
Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil, with hefty dose of conspiracy and machiavellian manipulations. Plus perhaps some self-delusion creeping in at the end - they initially imply that they started the war, but then state the enemy is “attacking” them and their nation is being “attacked.”


"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal."
Hard to say, any alignment. Depends on the Goddess - is she noble, kind, freedom-loving? Or is she tyrannical, vile, sadistic, greedy? Probably not Good... but not necessarily incompatible either. Depends on how deityhood works in your setting, and why the individual seeks divinity.


"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony."
Authoritarian, ends justify the means, typical Lawful Evil. Plus what does “harmony” mean? What does the society look like?


*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever."
Lawful evil — especially since vampires must feed, so who else are you sacrificing? Also potentially Stupid Evil — why would a forced vampire stay loyal any longer than necessary?


"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it."
Any alignment, with an ironic third component of true stupid for the character. Probably more chaotic — not trusting the lineage because it might allow a stupid person to know the secret (though the character by their actions ironically demonstrates they are not entirely wrong...).


"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed."
Mass displacement is a war crime in modern law, and even in the past effectively served as a means to effectively wipe out a group without actually staining one’s own weapons (especially useful if you were worried about being a “kinslayer”). Even “peaceful” displacement still puts the group at risk, as where are they going to go? Invade someone else, get killed/enslaved by someone else, or whittled down by starvation and disease? This is probably lawful evil, maybe lawful neutral if the character is too stupid to consider the concequences of their actions and feels that they were “merciful.”


"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow."
Key words: “great quantity,” “plentiful,” “horrible weapons.” Nothing implies this race has any pressing need that would begin to justify why they felt they needed to do what they did, and they admit to doing horrible things, suggesting they could empathize with their victims if they chose. Neutral evil or lawful evil tend to hold that life is a zero sum game, and the winners need to stamp down competitors hard.


"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key."
As previously, quite stupid and irresponsible — maybe chaotic. Also seems... Odd? Why leave a key that someone might puzzle out at all? Especially for something so important? Exile of all their subjects (who have rights and obligations due to them from your character) leans more chaotic (my interests not infringed by others) and is probably evil (see above for displacement as a crime).


"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have."
Still Evil. Probably Neutral Evil. To be honest, avoiding unwanted pain for oneself is more neutral or even unaligned than anything (non-sapiant animals do it, after all, and even organisms without nervous systems strive to survive). So the key phrase is still the first few sentences, which establish the character as evil.


"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves."
Any, probably chaotic initially, and seems non-evil (but not guaranteed — resistance movements can descend into depths as dark as any tyrant).


"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society."
The first two sentences are confusing... unless we’re talking about stereotypical bee-people (and note that one can actually replace a deceased bee queen). Otherwise, this seems more Good, maybe Neutral or Chaotic Good?


"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!"
Neutral Evil, maybe Chaotic Evil.


"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands."
Neutral Evil, maybe xenophobic Lawful Evil. The key word there is “permitted,” implying some kind of organized rule.


"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast."
Agree with several previous posters, it’s hard to say what this means in terms of alignment. After all, to logically stretch the metaphor, garbage is... garbage, it’s either inedible or toxic. If it were safely edible, it wouldn’t be garbage. For example, this could be the unthinking privilege of an aristocrat who knows nothing of real hunger (probably non-good), the coping strategy of a starving person in a famine (any alignment), or the bizarre philosophy of a “know your place” type religion (lawful and/or evil).

------


"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain."
Different ideas of wealth, and a certain lack of self-introspection. Wealth in the past was often based on land and its uses and resoures, so yes, the speaker is potentially very wealthy. The idea that the other man is a “stupid citydweller” shows a certain... bias as well that does not reflect well on the speaker.


"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me."
Plausible thought, but different approaches for it. The first believes this sentiment until they fall victim to it. The second knows what they say is reported and will never admit to fears out of... fear.


"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace."
Internalized categorism is a real and tragic thing, and is distinct from simply recognizing one’s strengths and weaknesses. Plausible, and this Orc needs a hug and a good bout of therapy.


"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right."
People do hold this position, often ignoring actual evidence to the contrary. Or simply defining “bad” as being only certain things and not others, as in “highwaymen plague the roads, but that’s normal, not ‘bad.’” Plausible, if irritating and self-indulgent. Will evaporate whenever something bad actually happens.


"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here."
I personally wouldn’t agree, but this is something people do seem to believe it. Of course, succeeding at a new profession is entirely different from saying it’s possible, so this could simply be a coping mechanism, or simple lack of forethought.

[Malapterus]

This is terribly formatted for an easy response, but I'll take a whack at it.

Thank you to you & everyone else for putting up with my half-assed formatting.

Let me make with the clarifications:

"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society."
Keep in mind that 'Evil' is a tangible thing in D&D. One can have an Evil alignment without actively doing Evil things. The White Queen here is saying she doesn't mind a Lawful Evil citizen and actually prefers them to a Chaotic Good citizen because the first is more likely to stay in line with her rules of society.[/1]

"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist."
[I]Basically the White Queen believes her particular mutant strain is the master race, for lack of a better term, but that does not mean other races need to be wiped out or enslaved - everyone else should get to live a good life, just, her race is the best equipped to determine how to live.

"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people."
The White Queen has been at this for over 800 years and the last 500 or so have had no major or even moderate problems that she hasn't been able to deal with; everything from protecting against invaders to making sure everyone is housed and fed has been well in hand.

"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society."
Someone can see the future, or can access a school of magic others don't know about, or plan a city in ways that cannot be expressed with skill points; that person cannot be replaced, and so any means warrant keeping them around, even if it's against their will.

"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it."
In the nation of the White Queen slackers and cheaters get removed. Taking more than you give is not tolerated.

*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior."
This is pretty straight-up. If she exiles these people they might form a new nation that threatens her own; if she tolerates them they'll raise their children to act the same way they do.

**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness."
Everyone loves chicken nuggets but no one wants to see how they're made. The White Queen doesn't think her people need to have their view of the golden crispy coating sullied by the knowledge of the pink sludge that came before it. After all, this whole 'removal' thing was her choice and the people had no say in it, so they don't need to feel guilt over it.

***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed."
The White Queen has a strong understanding of someone who can't work and someone who won't. An able-bodied able-minded man that chooses to be a thief or con artist or just a leech is someone subject to her removal; someone who is disabled or ill or injured and can't make the choice to go be productive is a citizen society is responsible to care for.

"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature."
The nation of the White Queen is, at current, a beautiful place. There is respect and even love between the dozens of races there. Elves don't hate Orcs and people aren't afraid of Lizardfolk and Goblins can go to school and no one complains about any of this, and it is stable without the Queen actively forcing people to think in a certain way. How can one put a value on that? And, if something is beyond value, how can anything traded for it be wrong? That is her thought on the things she has done to get here.

"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society."
Equality is that everyone gets the same treatment. Equity is that everyone gets the treatment they need. Orcs need more food than Gnomes, Gnomes need more libraries than Orcs. Blindly giving everyone the same treatment is equality, and leads to using more resources than needed in some aspects and people going needy in others. The White Queen believes that different individuals have different needs and giving everyone the exact same thing for the sake of being 'Fair' is not fair to anyone.
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"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy."
Pretty much face-value here. Ol' Whitey Queeny will strraight-up erase you if you're messing up her clockwork. Getting Orcs and Elves to rub elbows is not easy.


"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people."
Basically the White Queen needs a palace so people will know she is the queen, and so she has a defensible home and room for all her officials, and it needs to look nice so that the people will be proud of their queen - but there's no call for excess. The palace is decorated mostly with plaster, pewter, and garnets; no use of gold or diamonds or silk or any such for the sake of decoration or vanity.

"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose."
I don't think anyone got tripped up on this one.

"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive."
'Pure Freedom' is more or less what it says, short of being allowed to murder and steal. Being able to speak and act and live however you want even if that makes you a jerk or a slob or a bully or an emigrant is a level of freedom the White Queen does not abide to. She believes people are happier if their lives and roles are defined for them and that a happy society is more important than a happy individual.

"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own."
The White Queen doesn't want anyone leaving. She's supposed to be gaining power, not losing it, and anyone leaving is a loss and possible threat to her master plan. She'll tell people the entire outside world is unsafe, which is technically true. There are some very nice, sweet places and a lot of places that are safe enough - but the other places can still get there and cause problems. They can't get to her nation, so there's a considerable difference. Another note is that there is an entire race that was driven extinct outside her nation and the only reason they still exist is because she had some living with her that the genocide couldn't get to.

*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to."
The people have gotten used to their way of life, it's been this way since before their grandparents were born. The concept of a world outside the nation is not something that even occurs to people much anymore, and they are quite happy here - but this comes from generations of grooming and culling.

**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders."
Some people thought this would be dangerous for the nation, but government ships don't generally come to visit and the outside world knows you don't try to visit the Ivory Nation. Only naïve traders, desperate refugees, or foolish criminals come to visit. As for embargos or interfering with trade - the Ivory Nation is a continent-sized island capable of producing everything it needs and has no known imports or exports.

"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me."
The White Queen values her people but knows they are lost without her. She is one of those individuals that can't be replaced.

"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few."
This is anti-morality math. One is less than two. A hundred is less than ten-thousand tenths. The White Queen cannot accept that an individual can ever override society's needs - unless it is someone like her that can give more to society than can be valued.

"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced."
The White Queen has tens of millions of citizens and is looking to get more - not just more, but everyone. While she may regret it emotionally, logically she will sacrifice any pawn if it means she ends up with all the pieces.

"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule."
The White Queen is saying that no one is underclass or worthless in her nation. People will always get what they earn and so while no one is above the law, no one is property either.

"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for."
She's an albino Drow that fled the Drow kingdom after it became a kingdom (a real upheaval in Drow society). Life on the surface has given her a bigger picture and led her to her goal of ruling everyone for their own good. She needs more people of her own recessive genetics to make her new race & so she'll capture any of them she learns of to add to her stock.

"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world."
This falls back to a specific feature of the history. There is an entity in the world that is a half-breed; half Gnome, half Goblin. This 'Gnobbin' is seen as something truly revolting and unnatural, even in a world where hybrids are common. His family name is sullied on both sides and people will often refuse to speak of him, let alone to him. With that said, though, he is a genius. His inventive skills are unsurpassed by anyone who has lived before or since. The White Queen looked past his stigma and gained so much from him.

"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults."
This is all well and good, but it's in spite of some people maybe needing their kids at home to work the farm or what have you, or perhaps having some religious or cultural reason that they'd prefer to educate their own children.

"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring."
A lot of this is pure vanity. The White Queen does not think that even her own children can grasp what she is after, and only trusts them to maintain it once it is in place.

"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me."
The Wood Elves that live on the edges of the island are always attacking the outer wall and always being easily rebuked. The White Queen believes this makes her people feel like they need her, and the easy rebukes make them feel safe. She has no interest in stopping the violence; her people are not getting hurt to any considerable degree and she is willing to let this one breed of elf suffer for her society. Originally they wanted to kill her because the knew she was a Drow, but none of them remember that anymore.

"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal."
This is rich; she's found a Lawful Neutral aspect of Lolth and she's going to, sort of, overtake it and become it? That's the plan, at least.

"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony."
I think I went over this before on another one.

*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever."
It's that Gnobbin again!

"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it."
This is someone new. It's a king of a human civilization; one of many monarchs trusted with a piece of the location of the powerful thing our major players are after. He has developed so little faith in humanity, especially his own particular subjects, that he doesn't think they can be trusted with it.

"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed."
Same guy. Used a Ring of Three Wishes; the first wish to oust the dwarves from their own city and mines so his humans could take it, one to fill his treasury, and the third remains unused, clenched in his dead hand in his grave.

"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow."
These ones are Warforged, and they need metal. Unlike other races who like metal for useful tools, Warforged are made of the stuff and cannot make more of themselves without it. It was important enough to them to have a safe supply that they chased the other dwarves it of the other kingdom and have turned the whole place into a hellish forge-city where they pop out more of themselves.

"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key."
Warrior-king of the spriggans; started out as nobody, became a Fighter, leveled up, became king, built a grand city for his Spriggans - then kicked them all out to fend for themselves and locked up the city so he could not need to worry about being responsible for his piece of the puzzle while he went off to ascend. Only hios magic sword will open the city, and he left it, uh, somewhere.

"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have."
This whole deal was important enough that the monarch of the local Neogi was brought in on it. Possibly the worst creatures on the planet, they still understand that things can get so bad that even they would suffer and value their responsibility - and they also don't go looking for this thing themselves.

"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves."
In my setting, Formorians are just monstrous humanoids instead of outsiders. A colony of tree-dwelling black-shelled Formirans all lived in a massive supertree. They started growing fungus for food, and in amongst that ended up with Myconids. The Myconids were salves, but eventually got the better of the Formorians. Instead of leaving with their freedom, they drove the Formorians out of their home and took the tree for themselves. Is driving people out of their home ever a Good action?

"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society."
The Red Queen of the desert Formorians is letting the Black Queen and her exiles chill with her people until they can find a new home. As someone suggested, yes, it is very much a 'bee' sort of thing and there is no chance of these two civilizations merging. The Black Formorians don't really bring anything to the table that the Reds need, so the Reds are getting the raw end of the deal here at the command of their Queen.

-
"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!"

"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands."
-
This is a Hobgoblin king and an Elf king saying the same thing, basically. It is funny to me.

"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast."
This is the rationale of the Goblins who live as citizens of the White Queen. Goblins have no advantages that another race does not do better, and so they have rationalized themselves as eager to do the dirty jobs and thus have found a respected place in society.

------

"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain."
This is me trying to rationalize how everyone can feel like they are equally cared for in the nation while some have more actual money.

"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me."
The patrols and inspections are a constant; it's been that way for 500 years. No one gets hurt by them and it keeps crime and poverty well at bay, so the people are cool with it. The only thing they lose is some privacy and freedom, which they don't mind - but they've also never known any other way of life.

"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace."
This is not an Orc-only thing. Again, in D&D, races have tangible features. Orcs get -4 Intelligence, they are stupid. They also get +2 Strength; they are strong. The Orc decides to live as a strong person instead of a stupid one. The Elf decides to live as a smart person instead of a frail one. The people of the Ivory Nation accept who they are and capitalize on it instead of straining at their inadequacies.

"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right."
There's lots of faith in the Queen, but can it really be blind faith if there's never been a valid reason to doubt her?

"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here."
To clarify, there is no reason this farmer couldn't leave home and become a Wizard. The Queen will pay for his schooling. There is no reason that an adept couldn't drop out and go become a farmer - the Queen will get him trained in agriculture and deed him some farmland once he's proven himself. Even with this, there may be family pressures or personal issues that mean that the Farmer stays a Farmer and the Adept finishes his Wizard schooling - but it's not the Queen's fault, and they take comfort in knowing the choice is out there even if they haven't taken it.


---

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to respond to my mess. I guess there's no way I can say now that the White Queen is anything other than Lawful Evil.

Now, the Ivory Kingdom was built on Lawful Evil but no one who lives there now is responsible for any of that. Once things are stable and the need for any extreme means has passed, the ruler who inherits the place is not necessarily evil for keeping society going, right? Once the Queen has moved on, could the Ivory Nation be a legitimate Lawful Neutral or even Lawful Good land without losing what it has gained from her?

[Pleh]

Now, the Ivory Kingdom was built on Lawful Evil but no one who lives there now is responsible for any of that. Once things are stable and the need for any extreme means has passed, the ruler who inherits the place is not necessarily evil for keeping society going, right? Once the Queen has moved on, could the Ivory Nation be a legitimate Lawful Neutral or even Lawful Good land without losing what it has gained from her?

Depends on what you define as, "losing what it has gained from her.

If that includes culling criminals, then no, it will remain definitively lawful evil.

But if they allow dissent of this kind, how will they maintain the same culture and society?

I think you're stuck with a society so dependent on LE roots that you have to stick to it or it will change identity. Are you okay with that?

[Malapterus]

Depends on what you define as, "losing what it has gained from her.

If that includes culling criminals, then no, it will remain definitively lawful evil.

But if they allow dissent of this kind, how will they maintain the same culture and society?

I think you're stuck with a society so dependent on LE roots that you have to stick to it or it will change identity. Are you okay with that?

The culling has pretty well run its course. If you kill all the white mice long enough, eventually there won't be any more white mice. The crime rate is so low that criminals are rare enough for future generations to use more gentle methods of correction.

There is little to dissent about and so anyone speaking up should get shouted down easily. By the time she passes it on this society will theoretically span the globe, so the 'you can't leave' thing is a virtual non-issue, and the only lifestyle people can't follow is royalty. If everyone is fed and safe and educated and healthy and free to lead a life so long as they don't make someone else suffer, what sane person would rock the boat?

[Remuko]

I have trouble believing the longer lived races dont have elders who remember a time before her rule. Elves can easily live to be 750+ years and a lot of things you claim happened only 500 years ago.

I cant see almost anything about this city as good. Even after shes gone, anyone who tries to keep it as is will become evil. I get a sense of dread just hearing you describe this place. I feel like devils in the Nine Hells would be jealous of this place. That's not a good thing. This kingdom, to me, is a dystopian hellscape and the thought of a society like that, even fictional, frankly scares the piss out of me.

[Kish]

Your avatar doesn't show because imagur hosting doesn't work here. If you want it to show to people who are reading this board rather than following the link, you'll need to host it somewhere else.

On the thread topic, OP, I concur with most of the other people here that the White Queen is a monster, but as long as she doesn't spell out her philosophy to the PCs the way you spelled it out here, there's no reason for it to be obvious to them.

She should, of course, keep up Undetectable Alignment or something similar if meeting with anyone who might have unknown magic and whose opinion would matter to her in any way.

[Pleh]

The culling has pretty well run its course. If you kill all the white mice long enough, eventually there won't be any more white mice. The crime rate is so low that criminals are rare enough for future generations to use more gentle methods of correction.

In a game with spells and dragons, THIS is the truly unbelievable fiction.

For this to work, you first have to say, "in this fictional setting, criminal predisposition is a genetic trait like pigmentation." Because it isn't anything at all like that in real life. Criminality can be spontaneously generated within an otherwise flawless system.

Let me demonstrate. The whole population is perfectly compliant for 2 generations because they remember what it was like before, when they had to provide for themselves without social benefits. The next generation starts producing members who have never known another way of living and starts taking social benefits for granted, but they are still ambitious to have more than what they were born with or maybe they just internally feel that they do not fit the mold.

Resentment begins to grow and they begin dedicating themselves to becoming an instrument of change. Maybe they want to become royalty, so they stir up campaigns for democratic elections. When this is forcefully struck down, the public, which increasingly is comprised of members who do not appreciate the difference society has made in their lives, begins to see the tyranny and oppression inherent in the system and begin to question if it is worth trading their right to democracy for these social benefits.

The society in the next few generations becomes fragmented between loyalists and seditionists and your only hope of repairing it (perfectly) is to again become lawful evil and reassert your domination of the public.


There is little to dissent about and so anyone speaking up should get shouted down easily. By the time she passes it on this society will theoretically span the globe, so the 'you can't leave' thing is a virtual non-issue, and the only lifestyle people can't follow is royalty. If everyone is fed and safe and educated and healthy and free to lead a life so long as they don't make someone else suffer, what sane person would rock the boat?

That's the problem. Insane people can't just be weeded out once and be done. The next generation will naturally have its own share of insane individuals.

The second generation will absolutely, unequivocally be forced to cull the new generation of dissenters to maintain the society. If they don't, then you are dealing with an inhumanly perfect race.

Now, if you are wanting to explore a fictional species that CAN be pruned for a few generations into a perfectly model society without their knowing, it is a slightly different scenario. At this point, you're asking, "what if we did Star Trek in D&D (with the White Queen being Section 31)?"

Which is an interesting proposal, except what do you want to do with this campaign setting? If there is no material need and no internal conflict, what kind of adventuring is there for PCs? In Star Trek, the point was that the Federation HADN'T conquered the entire universe and still had untouched realms yet to explore and learn about (and antagonistic rivals with whom they maintained a delicare balance). In your world, there is no where else to go or anyone else to meet.

There's no adventure left to be done except uncovering the society's corrupt foundation and ruining everything.

[Malapterus]

For this to work, you first have to say, "in this fictional setting, criminal predisposition is a genetic trait like pigmentation." Because it isn't anything at all like that in real life. Criminality can be spontaneously generated within an otherwise flawless system.

It's not genetic, but traditions can be as strong as genetics. Look how much hold society has over, for example, people in Japan. There is a huge culture of people acting in a certain way simply because it's always been done that way and to step out of line is unsavory and scary. I'm not talking some 'bushido' BS here, I'm talking about men working 14 hour days with no overtime because going home without finishing your work is not acceptable; stuff like that.

Also, people are raised by their families, and they take on their families' ideals. If there are no 'bad examples' to have kids then there will be no kids emulating said bad examples. Since both the citizenry and the government have no tolerance for rule-breaking, even if the punishment for it is imprisonment or banishment instead of execution, the people who are inclined to be disruptive won't make it far.

That's not to say I have some romantic notion that there's no crime in Japan, by far, but if such a wealthy and advanced nation with a steady culture like that made not having crime it's first priority I can bet they'd do a good job.



That's the problem. Insane people can't just be weeded out once and be done. The next generation will naturally have its own share of insane individuals.

The second generation will absolutely, unequivocally be forced to cull the new generation of dissenters to maintain the society. If they don't, then you are dealing with an inhumanly perfect race.


You can't stop crazy people, but crazy people are a massive minority. Poverty is a huge cause of crime, and they'll be going into the new age with that well under control and a huge backup supply of funds and resources. Education is available and so any material good a person might want can be earned, and when earning it is a reliable option and stealing it is so unsavory and risky, I can imagine few people would get desperate enough to turn to any major crime.

The last major sort of crime is just greed; greed for money or power that you don't actually need. If a man decides that he wants all the money or that he should be Queen, then that could turn into organized crime or dissent. That's going to be the major sort of criminal the nation would be dealing with, and there's no easy answer. I believe that imprisonment and demonization would be effective without being evil; you lock him up so he can't do it again and then you shame him in history so no one wants to be compared to him.


Which is an interesting proposal, except what do you want to do with this campaign setting? If there is no material need and no internal conflict, what kind of adventuring is there for PCs? In Star Trek, the point was that the Federation HADN'T conquered the entire universe and still had untouched realms yet to explore and learn about (and antagonistic rivals with whom they maintained a delicate balance). In your world, there is no where else to go or anyone else to meet.

There's no adventure left to be done except uncovering the society's corrupt foundation and ruining everything.

There's the fun part. The Queen being in power and this perfect, stable, sealocked nation is the starting point. I am transitioning my players from 5E into 3.5. 5E is not nearly so broad as 3.5 (yet) and definitely not as powerful and customizable. I'm starting them off from this sheltered, safe society so they're not expected to be truly ready for what lies out there. Once they are out there, while I am showing them the wonders of a thousand sourcebooks, the player characters can start getting their own ideas about the world without the Queen and her bugbear army breathing down their neck.

The White Queen opposes the Black King, who is out to find a dingus called "The Heart of the Earth" which no one really seems to know what it is but there's a consensus that it is a power unfit for any being to wield, so it's been hidden away. There is also 'the blood of the earth' which they will come across here and there. This is Darklight Ore from the Drow book & the Black Kingdom (Drow) are using it for weapons and mutants and such.
I know Drow are a matriarchy; in this case said matriarchy has been overthrown and is now a patriarchy and the Black King has gotten a bug up his generational butt to show his people how much better of a ruler he can be.

The 'Heart of the Earth' is a single massive chunk of the stuff, the biggest single deposit ever discovered, cut into a convenient cube the size of a small house. The Black King has gone a-looking for it, so he can make a massive magical nuke to conquer the surface world in one fell swoop. The White Queen is sending her people to find it first so that he won't do that, but, she also -might- have been spending the last century building a steel colossus under her palace that needs this thing to power it so she can conquer the world.

I'm not telling the players where it is, and so they will be doing a lot of exploring and adventuring trying to find it, coming across side quests of various importance and feasibility. The whole campaign is really about learning and exploring and questioning what you know. By the time they've roamed the world and met different cultures and found this thing and seen what an ounce of it can do, will they still be willing to hand it over to their Queen? If they know what she would do with it, would they still give it to her believing it would bring an eventual end to the suffering they have seen? It's all going to be very interesting to find out.

There's even some possibility that they'll bring down Lolth and replace the Drow with the Queen's new race - even if the Queen isn't a peach, she's still better to have around than regular chaotic-evil matriarchal Drow or the current neutral-evil patriarchal Drow. Hell, if they can kill the Black King and topple his regime, the Drow can go back to being chaotic-evil matriarchal Drow who at least mind their own business for the most part & that will a boon to the rest of the world.

There are many outcomes and many choices, and unlike the Ivory Nation, certainly none of them are perfect.

[Pleh]

It's not genetic, but traditions can be as strong as genetics. Look how much hold society has over, for example, people in Japan. There is a huge culture of people acting in a certain way simply because it's always been done that way and to step out of line is unsavory and scary. I'm not talking some 'bushido' BS here, I'm talking about men working 14 hour days with no overtime because going home without finishing your work is not acceptable; stuff like that.

I'm saying you get diminishing returns on that kind of effect. You'll never reach perfection with any species like real world mankind. As long as we're talking about a race as fictional as dragons, you're fine.


Also, people are raised by their families, and they take on their families' ideals. If there are no 'bad examples' to have kids then there will be no kids emulating said bad examples.

I've never had kids, but your statement makes me think you additionally have no friends who have kids.

Bad influences are a thing, but you're kidding yourself if you think rebellion doesn't just come naturally or that it can be perfectly resolved through correct nuturing. People (even as kids) are more complicated than that.


Since both the citizenry and the government have no tolerance for rule-breaking, even if the punishment for it is imprisonment or banishment instead of execution, the people who are inclined to be disruptive won't make it far.

And what about the rich family with the spoiled heir? Every time he would get in trouble, they conceal the misdeed and bail the kid out. It quickly sets up a family dynasty of making sure any crimes committed in the family are simply never discovered.

In a LE society, LE organizations tend to flourish. Is a lawful evil noble in this kingdom going to allow their own child to be imprisoned or banished like some peasant for some minor misdeed?


That's not to say I have some romantic notion that there's no crime in Japan, by far, but if such a wealthy and advanced nation with a steady culture like that made not having crime it's first priority I can bet they'd do a good job.

No one is better at covering up a crime than those tasked with rooting them up. And crimes can only be punished if they are discovered.


I can imagine few people would get desperate enough to turn to any major crime.

Some people aren't stealing for profit. Some people just want to prove their superiority or to watch the world burn.


The last major sort of crime is just greed; greed for money or power that you don't actually need. If a man decides that he wants all the money or that he should be Queen, then that could turn into organized crime or dissent. That's going to be the major sort of criminal the nation would be dealing with, and there's no easy answer. I believe that imprisonment and demonization would be effective without being evil; you lock him up so he can't do it again and then you shame him in history so no one wants to be compared to him.

What do you mean by, "demonization?" In a world where demons are real creatures, that sounds pretty bad. Did you mean Villification?

Remember that some crime bosses enjoy having infamy and have no problem running their organization from prison.


There's the fun part. The Queen being in power and this perfect, stable, sealocked nation is the starting point.

There are many outcomes and many choices, and unlike the Ivory Nation, certainly none of them are perfect.

Well, the point is that it definitively isn't perfect, it just possesses a thin veneer of perfection and attempts to placate the masses into chooses not to look too closely at the cracks.

Just don't be too surprised if your players take a rapid, distrustful disliking for the Ivory Hell they find themselves in. I still rather strongly doubt it will ever be stable if you stop using culling to control crime.

[Red Fel]

Let's go ahead and Red Fel Red Fel Red Fel on this whole thing.

You rang?


Hello again! I am going through some ideas and trying to establish a believable setting, in which it's not horrendously obvious that something unsavory is going on below the surface, but also believable that it is. Help me out by assigning alignments to the following thoughts, and then later there are some concepts I want to know if you find believable.

They're all Lawful Evil. Obviously. Every single one is a sentiment that can be comfortably expressed by a reasonably pragmatic Lawful Evil character.

Remember, if you ever have to ask, the answer is LE.

. . .

Okay, all kidding (and not really kidding) aside:


"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society."

Lawful Any, tending non-Good. Valuing a person by their contributions to the whole tends more Lawful. Pretty much anybody non-Good is comfortable with Evil characters who contribute, and some Good can forgive minor sins for the greater success of the whole.

They're not all Paladins.


"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist."

Elves.

Fact is, there is a god of racism - Zarus, the LE patron deity of Humans. But he preaches human supremacy to the extreme - as in, non-Humans have non-rights.

That said, most races - even Good ones, especially Good ones - feel superiority. Elves feel superior to everyone. Dwarves often do too. And we just touched on Humans. Feeling that your group is better than the other isn't an inherently Evil trait, much as it feels it, as long as you recognize the rights of the other.


"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people."

Well, half of this quote makes no sense, and the other half tends Lawful. Could be LN, LG, or LE, but "I alone know what's best" is the language of the dictator, benevolent or otherwise.


"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society."

Lawful-something, tending LN/LE. "By any means" tends to be non-Good language (since there are some means that are no-nos to Goody-Goody types). Lawful because it's focused on society's needs instead of an individual's wants.


"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it."

Lawful Any. Again, the focus on society's benefit over the individual favors Law over Chaos. But there's nothing non-Good about requiring individuals to contribute to the whole.


*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior."

"Culled," on the other hand, tends towards the Evil end of the spectrum.


**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness."

This part has no bearing on the G-E spectrum. Lying to people to make them happy, or even to deceive them, isn't inherently Evil, or even non-Good.


***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed."

Also no bearing on G-E, although it may tend towards G. Pragmatic Evil can still make use of its injured and infirm, even if only as a propaganda prop.


"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature."

Obviously LG.

Only partially kidding. Exalted Good kinda accepts this - taking away the free will of intelligent beings by force is acceptable if it means they become Good. That said, to normal morality, this is pretty freaking Evil, justified or not.


"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society."

Hm. Based on your definition, I would say Any. Chaotic could be all in favor of individual treatment (i.e. equity), while Lawful could recognize "from each according to his means to each according to his needs," within a given structure. And it could be used benevolently or oppressively. So Any.


"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy."

Tending non-Good, could be anywhere on C-L. But even some Good characters can approach this.


"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people."

Any Good. Thinking about others is a primarily Good trait, and using the government toward that end is not inherently Lawful.


"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose."

Any. Could be a Chaotic ruler who wants people to be healthy enough to be free, could be an LG ruler who wants people to be happy, could be an LE tyrant just pragmatic enough to recognize that a happy populace is a compliant one. That last one is somewhat less likely with the "life they choose" clause, though.


"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive."

Lawful Any. There's no morality component, just a desire for structure.


"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own."

Any. Lying is not the exclusive province of any alignment, nor is hypocrisy. It does tend Lawful, however, for the desire to control others.


*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to."

Tends more strongly Lawful, because they're actually not allowed.


**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders."

Technically Any, but tending Evil for unprovoked attacks.


"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me."

Any. Arrogance is not the exclusive province of Evil.


"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few."

Lawful Any, tending non-Good. A willingness to sacrifice others is not a particularly Good trait, but there are times that even Good characters are faced with hard choices.


"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced."

Me.

Kidding. That's both sloppy and stupid. In fact, I would call it Stupid Evil, simply because no rational character believes that he can find loyal allies after killing his loyal allies.


"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule."

Lawful Any, tending Good. Slavery is Evil, but that doesn't mean that all Evil characters support it. On the other hand, "full freedom not being something I believe in" is the sentiment of a Lawful-tending character.


"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for."

Lawful non-Good. Forcing others into subjugation is not a Good trait, but it may be a trait of a Neutral entity seeking to propagate at any cost. Dominating over others notwithstanding their own wants tends Lawful.


"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world."

Any. "All ideas should have a chance to prove themselves" is not intrinsically anything.


"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults."

Define "will ensure." If by force, tending Lawful, else Any.


"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring."

Any. Wanting to perfect your society can be the selfless desire of an altruist, or the cruel tyranny of a despot.


"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me."

Tending pretty strongly Evil, since you've fabricated a war for your own personal benefit.


"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal."

Any. A Good Drow, for example, might wish to overshadow Lolth and in doing so save her people.


"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony."

Potentially Any, but tending non-Good, because "ends justify the means" is typically not a Good sentiment.


*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever."

Technically creating Undead is an Evil act, although I think that's a profoundly stupid rule, so this is probably Evil.


"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it."

Any. Good doesn't mean nice, and no alignment is required to trust idiots.


"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed."

Tricky. Tending non-Good, because you're forcing out the native population, but you're deliberately doing it without bloodshed. I'd say non-Good, just on principle, but certain circumstances might drive even Good to make the hard choices.


"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow."

Tending pretty strongly non-Good. This was not an act of necessity, but of desire. A Good character might fight for the preservation of her race, but this was not that.


"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key."

... Any? I mean, it's twisted, but a Good character might have had reason to send everyone away.


"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have."

Still Evil. Evil is Evil. This isn't complicated. The fact that Evil pets dogs or kisses babies doesn't stop it from being Evil.


"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves."

Any. Tending slightly non-Good, depending on how and when they drove out the oppressors, but fighting for liberty isn't an Evil act.


"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society."

Any? I mean, this is family. Anybody can take care of family.


"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!"

Once again, Elves.


"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands."

Pretentious Elves.


"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast."

Any. Also, ew.


Here are some thoughts I want to know of sound agreeable:

"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain."

"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me."

"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace."

"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right."

"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here."

These are all justifications. This is how most people live their lives - they justify themselves, their situations, their decisions and their society. Is it reasonable? It depends if it's true. But it's how most people are able to get out of bed each day.

[lucky9]

Sorry I'm late to the alignment post party, this one was intriguing enough to pull me out of the usual lurk again. I know most of this has been covered but here's my two coppers on the quotes:


"I do not care if an individual is Evil so long as they are contributing their share to society."

Easy one to start: LN


"My race is intrinsically superior to all other races, but other races have an inalienable value and right to exist."

Superiority complex/racism is non-good, concern for rights is good. Suggestion of system of rights is law. Soo LN


"There has been little or no evidence to the contrary, and I believe that I and I alone know what is best for all other people."

Without seeing this 'evidence' it's just the speaker's opinion which sounds non-good. Best that can be said from what's given N


"If a person has a unique gift that cannot be replicated, it is acceptable to use any means to preserve that person for the benefit of society."

Concern for uniqueness is chaos. Any means necessary is non-good. Concern for society is law. Summation N


"Everyone has a responsibility to do their part in society and those who refuse should not get the benefits of said civilization, and furthermore should be removed from it."

Pure, pure LN


*"And by 'removed' I mean 'culled' so that they don't join up with more miscreants or breed children to carry on their legacy of parasitic or predatory behavior."
Okaaay, an obvious LE


**"But, the people who are happily contributing to society don't need to know about the culling. We don't want them to think they're doing this against their will and we don't need to subject them to such ugliness."
Even more LE


***"Please note that refusing to contribute to society and being unable to contribute to society are two different things and a civilized society can be expected to care for its injured and infirmed."
Standing by itself this sounds LG however, in the context of the quote chain it's a veneer, so still LE


"I have proven that I can lead multiple millions in peaceful, satisfying, safe society and so I am in the process of creating a horrible war machine that will allow me to dominate the entire world and spread my perfect civilization to every thinking creature."
Peaceful society is law. 'Horrible war machines' are non-good, usually evil. Domination is evil. LE


"Equality is a childish fantasy, but Equity is the road to a thriving society."
All about this 'society' again LN


"I will annihilate anyone who remotely threatens the balance that keeps my people safe and happy."
Annihilation is non-good at best. Concern for people or concern for the balance/law? Probably LE due to the implication of not letting their grasp loosen an inch.


"A Queen needs a palace and finery, but only for show - it is more important to use government resources to benefit the people."
All about the law.. with concern for the people which is good. Standing on it's own makes this quote LG tending LN


"It is largely to maintain my own rule, but it is my priority to make sure my people have all their needs healthily met, are protected from danger, and have opportunity to live the life they choose."
Chief concern for maintaining own rule is evil, even if it helps people. Giving choice is chaos.. I'd argue for NE


"Pure freedom is not only not needed by sentient creatures, it is a hindrance to a healthy society. People need rules and purpose to thrive."

Complete LN again.


"I tell my people that the world beyond our border is not safe for them; and while it is true that there is savagery and cruelty and starvation out there, what I fear is them being poisoned by ideas that conflict with my own."
Total selfishness and no real concern for the people, just their own ideals. LE


*"To that end, no one is allowed to leave, ever. After several hundred years, no one is left that even wants to."

Another tool of LE


**"I also sink any ships that try to come to my land. We don't need outsiders."

Still LE


"My people and the civilization I have built are the most important thing to me, however, I could not sacrifice myself to preserve them. I can rebuild this society from the ground, but the people could not maintain it without me."
Self preservation is not evil but this level of self-superiority is definitely non-good. Again, a ruse of caring for the people. Sticking to LE


"The intrinsic value of an individual sentient life is far from infinite. One person's death is preferable to the death of three. A thousand people dying so that grain remains affordable for a million is better than a million and one people going hungry. The average equitable individual can be easily replaced and the masses should not suffer for the few."
Definitely non-good, good protects everyone except pure evil.. Again they are thinking about society.. LN


"Toward my goal of a perfect global society under my thumb, I will lie to and backstab my most trusting and loyal allies and servants. They can be replaced."

Plain LE


"Despite full freedom not being something I believe in, it is important that everyone gets the rewards of their contribution to society. Therefore, slavery is not permitted under my rule."
A hard law and a soft good.. LN


"I am a mutant of another race, and feel my anomalous traits make me superior to my parent race. I need to propagate my traits and it is alright for me to take by force any fellow mutants for my society, even if they disagree with everything I stand for."
Superiority complex is non-good. Take by force is evil. NE


"A thought or idea contained to one individual cannot be intrinsically abhorrent. Every idea and every creature that has ideas have merit and should be given their chance to benefit the world."
Concern for individuality is chaos, especially for those others view as 'abhorrent.' Wanting to benefit the world is good. Therefore CG


"I prefer an educated populace and will ensure all children born here become educated adults."

Nothing strongly suggesting a tilt on either axis other than light law because 'populace' and implied educational system. LN


"I made myself immortal so that I can rule until society is perfect, and then I intend to pass my rule to one of my offspring."
Self-preservation is for everyone but becoming immortal to continue ruling is non-good, possibly full evil. And all for that 'society...' LN


"I have largely fabricated a common enemy for my people, one that can be easily defeated and yet will not give up. After countless generations, this enemy does not know why they continue to attack my nation and my nation does not know why it is attacked, but I will keep this going as it benefits my peoples' faith in me."
Lying to the masses to preserve a nation is yet another tool of LE


"I intend to become a deity that will overshadow the goddess of my birth race so that my influence will not only become stronger, but eternal."
That level of ambition is usually evil. Nothing else to go on so NE


"Any means or motivations I have ever had are justified by the fact that I have a population of millions, made up of over two dozen different races, living in harmony."
Self-justification for implied past atrocities to the end of bringing order LE


*"Including the fact that one of my minions was irreplaceable so I had him turned into a vampire so I could keep him forever."

Continuation of the LE


"I was tasked with a secret that someday may be needed to save the world. I was to pass it along to my children and they to their children and so on, so the secret may be told when the need arises. I decided that my own people were too stupid be trusted with this secret and so I tool it to my grave, but left it in a place only an intelligent person would find it."
No tilt on either axis. N


"I wanted a nation to build my city in and so I used a Wish spell to drive out the native race without bloodshed."

Without knowing reasons other than 'I wanted,' which suggest chaos or evil. Buuut with avoidance of bloodshed so non-evil. All that one can go on leaves CN


"There is a resource that exists in great quantity. All races benefit from it, one race delights in it, but my race needs it to propagate. Even though it is plentiful, I and my people waged war using horrible weapons against the native race of an area with a large amount of it so that we could guarantee we had enough so our young race could grow."

Completely unnecessary conquest with 'horrible weapons': evil. Goal of security for your people at large: law. LE


"I, too, have part of the secret that may someday save or destroy the world. I wanted to become a God, so I exiled all my people from my kingdom and sealed the secret within it before going off to ascend. I did leave a bizarre key to my city, though, hidden somewhere not too difficult to find - although it is not obviously a key."
No motivations for ascension are given, though again, that level of ambition is typically evil or at least a very unhealthy good. No motivations for exiling your own people given. Sounds chaotic all together. Leaving 'bizarre' riddles.. Going with CN


"I am evil. My parents were evil, my children are evil. We delight in tormenting others in any way we can. With that in mind, I too have a part of the secret, but I know attempting to claim the full secret for myself would be a folly that would bring about suffering that I would not enjoy, and so I guard my share of it with the same reverence and dedication as any Lawful Good counterpart I may have."

Joy in tormenting others but 'only to an extent' is still evil.. A point for you for making a wise-ish sounding CE


"My race was enslaved. We rose up and gained our freedom. We then drove our oppressors out of our homeland and took it for ourselves."
Uprisings are chaos. Vengeance is a definitive non-good, but it's out of a need to secure your people so all together this could be anyone. N


"My people are born to one queen. They can never know another. One of my sisters lost her queendom and brought her children to my doorstep. They can never be my subjects, but they have nowhere else to go. I am allowing them to live among my people under their own laws and queen, so long as they respect my house, until such time as they can find a new home. They share in my nations resources but largely do not contribute anything new to my society."
There is no strong lean in any direction. N


"Everyone sucks and only my exact race is allowed in my kingdom. Nyah!"

Racism is non-good. Pettiness is non-good. Not much else to go on so N


"All races are inferior to my own and so none but mine shall be permitted to tarry in our lands."

Same as above minus pettiness, plus pretentiousness. N


"Fighting over steaks will get someone killed and leave most people hungry, but learning to eat garbage turns life into a feast."

Concern for the greater body of people is a soft good and law. Eating garbage suggests chaos (in the circumstances, not necessarily in the individual. Everyone has to survive after all). Going with N due to lack of any other leanings.
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"A man in the city has more than his weight in gold and can buy whatever he likes, living in his stone house squeezed among the other buildings of the city. I have what I need, but I am as wealthy as he because I have a hundred acres of land to do as I please with no neighbors to complain."

Disagree because the man with his own land and 'no one to complain' is not equal to, but even wealthier than a man 'squeezed in among the others.'


"I don't mind that there are always police and soldiers everywhere, because there's never any crime - and if there is, I'm certainly not a criminal, so they won't hurt me."
Flatly disagree.


"I am stupid because I am an Orc. I know I am stupid. I also know that I am strong. If I use my strength to contribute to society instead of struggling to be smart, I will be successful and at peace."
Disagree. Compare yourself to yourself, not to others. Do what makes you happy and you will get good at it.


"Nothing bad has ever happened so the Queen must always be right."
False for any number of reasons.


"I am a farmer, as was my father before me, and his. I know I could leave this farm and do whatever I please, and that knowledge helps me remain content right here."
Okay, have fun! Bye.

***


Soo finally now to the ongoing discussion:

I actually believe your ruse could work for the players. But you would be better off not dropping any hints whatsoever until they actually leave the Ivory Nation. Sell it like Disneyworld: everything is perfect and innocent and pure. Everyone is sufficiently brainwashed and there are no issues. It's a magical fantasy kingdom where everyone lives together in peace. We have the nice elf queen who requires a task from you to go into the "forbidden forest" outside the walls. Make it completely PG until after they start adventuring on the outside. No hints at all. Just make it safe and happy.

Once they leave, make their first encounters a confirmation of what has been told. Show them the starvation, the war, the monsters, etc. before any 'reveals.'

Depending on your players they will either be the sort to buy the "happy magical fantasy land" and be sufficiently surprised when they start learning more of the Ivory Nation's history. Or they are the sort who will be naturally suspicious without needing any hints on your part and are just waiting for the real 'evidence of conspiracy.'

Just my thoughts:smallsmile: