Theory-crafting a character I met last night to test legitimacy

[TheChangelingMC]

Long story short, started a soft reboot of my boyfriend's game last night with a couple of new players and one of their characters just feels off. I don't want to straight out confront them because they're a friend of his, so I'm wondering if you guys can prove me wrong by making the character with the limitations we have and then I know it's legit. They pretty much single handedly killed the boss last night and I just don't want his game being ruined by someone who's skirting around the rules.

So, the situation:

Level 10
Apparently Human (unsure if variant or not)
Some levels in Paladin
Some levels in Wizard (with restriction lifted bladesinger archetype)
Maybe some levels in other classes (she has cavalier fighter listed on her write up-of the party's classes and races)
They were making 4 attacks a round, including a 91 damage turn through 4 hits and 4 smites buring 4 1st level spell slots
At one point used a reaction ability of some kind to teleport 30 feet away and avoid an attack (unsure if spell I'm missing or a class ability)

If anyone can find a combination that I've missed I'd be happy to hear it, because right now I'm just worried that we've got a cheater on our hands. The best I can find is 3 attacks and that's only possible at level 11...

[Unoriginal]

Long story short, started a soft reboot of my boyfriend's game last night with a couple of new players and one of their characters just feels off. I don't want to straight out confront them because they're a friend of his, so I'm wondering if you guys can prove me wrong by making the character with the limitations we have and then I know it's legit. They pretty much single handedly killed the boss last night and I just don't want his game being ruined by someone who's skirting around the rules.

So, the situation:

Level 10
Apparently Human (unsure if variant or not)
Some levels in Paladin
Some levels in Wizard (with restriction lifted bladesinger archetype)
Maybe some levels in other classes (she has cavalier fighter listed on her write up-of the party's classes and races)
They were making 4 attacks a round, including a 91 damage turn through 4 hits and 4 smites buring 4 1st level spell slots
At one point used a reaction ability of some kind to teleport 30 feet away and avoid an attack (unsure if spell I'm missing or a class ability)

If anyone can find a combination that I've missed I'd be happy to hear it, because right now I'm just worried that we've got a cheater on our hands. The best I can find is 3 attacks and that's only possible at level 11...

Did she use her Action Surge?

Did she have magic items?

Which weapons/spells did she use?

Do you know how many spell slots she used?

[TheChangelingMC]

Did she use her Action Surge?

Did she have magic items?

Which weapons/spells did she use?

Do you know how many spell slots she used?

At no point did I hear her declare an action surge, and she made 4 attacks every round, so I don't think it can be that since to my knowledge you don't get even a second use until waaay into fighter.

She had a +2 Jian, which was 1d8 slashing dex apparently (afaik it was homebrewed with boyfriend but there were no extra abilities to it) and no other magical items that I know of.

The only spell she cast (if it was a spell) was the teleport thing, and she burned the 4 1st levels for smite.

[Unoriginal]

At no point did I hear her declare an action surge, and she made 4 attacks every round, so I don't think it can be that since to my knowledge you don't get even a second use until waaay into fighter.

She had a +2 Jian, which was 1d8 slashing dex apparently (afaik it was homebrewed with boyfriend but there were no extra abilities to it) and no other magical items that I know of.

The only spell she cast (if it was a spell) was the teleport thing, and she burned the 4 1st levels for smite.

Then yes, this person is probably a cheater. You can't get 4 attacks with one weapon and a multiclass at lvl 10.

Furthermore, to deal 91 damages in 1 turn, she would have needed to inflict 20.75 damages only using the dice, +8 of weapon bonus. With 1d8 from the weapon + 2d8 from the 1rst level Smite, it means she didn't roll under 4 on any of her TWELVE dice and generally rolled in the 6-7 range. Possible but improbable. Getting a crit would make it plausible, however.

You should ask your boyfriend how this character was able to do those things. Maybe it was an homebrew he agreed to or something.

[Aett_Thorn]

What restrictions on Bladesinger were lifted? Just the Elf restriction (although could be a half-elf), or others?

Attacking four times each turn seems like the oddest part of this build. Only high-level fighters should be able to do that with any regularity, although other builds do have that capability (Monks using ki, Dual-wielding Hunter Rangers in a pack of enemies, etc.). Given the massive amount of multiclassing that he’s got going on, he probably shouldn’t even have Extra Attack for two attacks a round.

I would say that it’s a Paladin 2, Cavalier 3, Bladesinger 3+. Other two levels are the wildcard here. If they went Cavalier 5, they might have extra attack, but that seems an odd choice.

[Arkhios]

At no point did I hear her declare an action surge, and she made 4 attacks every round, so I don't think it can be that since to my knowledge you don't get even a second use until waaay into fighter.

She had a +2 Jian, which was 1d8 slashing dex apparently (afaik it was homebrewed with boyfriend but there were no extra abilities to it) and no other magical items that I know of.

The only spell she cast (if it was a spell) was the teleport thing, and she burned the 4 1st levels for smite.

Single-handedly obliterating an opponent is pretty much any paladin's territory; there's nothing out of the ordinary in there. Smites add a massive amount of damage. Especially if they have multiclassed into a full-caster such as wizard in this case, they have a lot of spell slots to burn for them.

For example, I only recently almost single-handedly destroyed a young black dragon with the Shadow Dragon Template, because I managed to land two crits in a row and could burn a 2nd-level slot for divine smite with both crits. And I was only at 5th level. Of course, it did help that I have a Dragonslayer (a +1 longsword that does 3d6 extra damage against dragons; which gets multiplied along with the other dice as normal)

[DeTess]

Did they use the Haste spell? This would give them an additional action every turn that would allow them to make 1 attack, but it wouldn't be too odd for them to have misread the spell and think they'd get another attack action with 2 attacks. That's still not legit, but it's an understandable mistake, rather than outright cheating.

the 30 feet teleport could have been a 6th level warlock trick, a msireading of misty step or a magic item of some sort.

[Haydensan]

I think the player is stacking extra attack when they shouldn't be.

Using a versitile weapon the regular (no action surge)of maxmber of attacks should be at level 10:
2 (from there action because extra attack) + 1 (from a haste spell)

The fighter (the class with the most attacks regularly) would only start making 3 with their action at level 11.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

[Unoriginal]

Single-handedly obliterating an opponent is pretty much any paladin's territory; there's nothing out of the ordinary in there. Smites add a massive amount of damage. Especially if they have multiclassed into a full-caster such as wizard in this case, they have a lot of spell slots to burn for them.

For example, I only recently almost single-handedly destroyed a young black dragon with the Shadow Dragon Template, because I managed to land two crits in a row and could burn a 2nd-level slot for divine smite with both crits. And I was only at 5th level. Of course, it did help that I have a Dragonslayer (a +1 longsword that does 3d6 extra damage against dragons; which gets multiplied along with the other dice as normal)

Using a first level slot, Smite only deals +2d8.

[Arkhios]

Using a first level slot, Smite only deals +2d8.

True, but my point was that a paladin can do insane damage regardless of what slots they use for smites. Adding 2 levels to the mix with just about any spellcasting class does wonders to the damage output.

[vexedart]

If they had haste, it’s possible to get 4 attacks by level 6 as a blade singer.

Attack action
Bonus attack
Dual wielding off hand bonus attack
Hastes single attack action

Misty step, a level 2 spell, teleports 30 ft as a bonus action, on the same round he attacks, interferes with the bonus action needed to offhand attack.

If they have 2 fighter in the build too, they could do more with action surge. I’m not familiar with cavalier, though I remember it looking like a good archetype.

[Unoriginal]

True, but my point was that a paladin can do insane damage regardless of what slots they use for smites.

I would usually agree, but again, doing 91 in one turn would have required to roll the equivalent of 7 on 11 of the dice and one 6 on the twelfth, as well as scoring those 4 hits in the first place.

[Unoriginal]

If they had haste, it’s possible to get 4 attacks by level 6 as a blade singer.

Attack action
Bonus attack
Dual wielding off hand bonus attack
Hastes single attack action


According to OP the PC did not use dual wielding. Also where do that first bonus attack come from?

[Aett_Thorn]

According to OP the PC did not use dual wielding. Also where do that first bonus attack come from?

I think they meant Extra Attack

[Arkhios]

I’m not familiar with cavalier, though I remember it looking like a good archetype.

Off-topic, but here are the "entry features" from Cavalier:


Born to the Saddle: Starting at 3rd level, you have advantage on saving throws made to avoid falling off your mount. If you fall off your mount and descend no more than 10 feet, you can land on your feet if you're not incapacitated.
Finally, mounting or dismounting a creature costs you only 5 feet of movement, rather than half your speed.
Unwavering Mark: Starting at 3rd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can mark the creature until the end of your next turn. This effect ends early if you are incapacitated or you die, or if someone else marks the creature.
While it is within 5 feet of you, a creature marked by you has disadvantage on any attack roll that doesn't target you.
In addition, if a creature marked by you deals damage to anyone other than you, you can make a special melee weapon attack against the marked creature as a bonus action on your next turn. You have advantage on the attack roll, and if it hits, the attack's weapon deals extra damage to the target equal to half your fighter level.
Regardless of the number of creatures you mark, you can make this special attack a number of times equal to your Strength modifier (minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.


Born to the Saddle is, arguably just a ribbon, but Unwavering Mark is quite remarkable on its own already, so the archetype doesn't really need anything else for the level. Especially because the first part is usable at-will.

[Unoriginal]

Off-topic, but here are the "entry features" from Cavalier:

Which doesn't change the fact that even including Cavalier, the character cannot have 4 attacks.

[Arkhios]

Which doesn't change the fact that even including Cavalier, the character cannot have 4 attacks.

Did I say it would change anything? I said that was off-topic, and I meant it literally.

[Legendairy]

I don’t know if I would say she is outright cheating, seems like it could be rules confusion. Mixing bonus actions with reactions for misty step, or she may have an ability or item (homebrew) that allows a misty step as a reaction, that said it’s a reaction and she should still take the damage imho. The attacks are off by a bit but again could be rules misinterpretation like stacking extra attacks which she shouldn’t have. Could also be something like monk mixed and could have burnt ki for the bonus attacks and thinking they could use a weapon for them and not straight unarmed, the homebrew weapon may be savvy with the monk class. The damage is high, as unoriginal pointed out but we really don’t know stat boosts to damage or other factors that may be involved.

Is your boyfriend concerned? I mean if he’s running it and everyone is having fun.....

I have seen these sorts of things happen often in 20+ years, sometimes rules get misread and DMs take them at face value because they are busy designing the world and encounters and trying to make it all entertaining. Before I would burn her at the stake, talk to her in a non combative way/tone and ask if you can go over her character with her, find out why it works like it does. If it just doesn’t, then politely correct the mistakes made and explain, EXPLAIN, the ins and out of the rules and where the misinterpretations are coming from.

[Schopy]

I think you should just ask them how their character works, it shouldn't be that much of a deal. It's possible that they aren't cheating on purpose, but didn't even realise how certain mechanics work. Maybe ask them before starting the next session or when they are doing something that seems off to you.

Just try to keep an open mind and don't sound suspicious but more curious, sometimes powerful options do exist. ☺ If the player gets defensive immediatly, then there might be something fishy going on.

[Unoriginal]

My bad with the damage thing.

I didn't take into account the damage bonus from stats.

Doesn't change the thing with the 4 attacks, though.

[JackPhoenix]

Using a first level slot, Smite only deals +2d8.

Unless the target is a fiend or undead, then you get extra 1d8.

[Unoriginal]

True. It would be useful to know what the boss was.

[Leith]

Actually the damage thing is still true. Even with a +5 ability score bonus you'd still need to roll an average of 5.25 on 12d8 to do 91 damage. That's not outside the realm of possibility it is still improbable. It's the kind of thing, that when I notice it, makes me want to look at your character sheet. I mean, it could be legit, it's just dice rolling. But it's enough to peak my interest, if only to find out how a character with 3 classes has a 20 in one attribute and what the other stats are.

[tieren]

Which doesn't change the fact that even including Cavalier, the character cannot have 4 attacks.

I think it could, if it was getting the bonus action attack from the Unwavering mark, and 2 attacks from the attack action with extra attack, and happened to be hasted.

haste would require 5 levels in bladesinger, extra attack at 6, make then take 2 paladin for smite, then 3 for cavalier...no, dang thats 11 levels, do any of the paladin oaths get haste?

Were they mounted and the mount getting an attack?

[Galadhrim]

I'm guessing dueling fighting style. She has a +2 weapon. Assuming she has a +5 in dex, making 4 attacks with a 1d8 weapon and 2d8 from each smite, that would give (3d8+9)x4 = (13.5+9)x4=(54+36)=90. All that to say, her damage of 91 seems exactly average, assuming she really can make 4 attacks. 4 attacks doesn't seem right, but it also doesn't seem off that a player playing a brand new character at level 10 would be confused about their abilities, especially if they have a complicated multiclass.

[Galadhrim]

I think it could, if it was getting the bonus action attack from the Unwavering mark, and 2 attacks from the attack action with extra attack, and happened to be hasted.

haste would require 5 levels in bladesinger, extra attack at 6, make then take 2 paladin for smite, then 3 for cavalier...no, dang thats 11 levels, do any of the paladin oaths get haste?

I believe Vengeance gets haste at level 9

[Mikal]

Here’s something more important. You as a player shouldn’t confront or confirm anything. The DM should do so. They should confirm whether the classes and abilities work together or not, and whether the character is legal for their game.

Bring it up to the DM. Let them handle it. Even if he’s your boyfriend it’s still the best way to do so, especially if you just restarted his game.

[tieren]

Lets try this:
Fey lock, pact of the blade, 6 levels will get you the misty escape reaction teleport, thirsting blade invocation gets the extra attack, eldritch smite could stack with divine smite for ridiculous amounts of burst damage, 3rd level spells

Paladin 2 levels for divine smite

Bladesinger 2 for bladesong

I don't recognize the name of the weapon, if it counts as a polearm maybe PAM is giving a bonus action attack with the butt end? Maybe even a 4th attack as a reaction if something comes into reach?

[Unoriginal]

I think it could, if it was getting the bonus action attack from the Unwavering mark, and 2 attacks from the attack action with extra attack, and happened to be hasted.

haste would require 5 levels in bladesinger, extra attack at 6, make then take 2 paladin for smite, then 3 for cavalier...no, dang thats 11 levels, do any of the paladin oaths get haste?


According to the OP the character didn't cast any spell except the escape teleport thing.


Lets try this:
Fey lock, pact of the blade, 6 levels will get you the misty escape reaction teleport, thirsting blade invocation gets the extra attack, eldritch smite could stack with divine smite for ridiculous amounts of burst damage, 3rd level spells

Paladin 2 levels for divine smite

Bladesinger 2 for bladesong

I don't recognize the name of the weapon, if it counts as a polearm maybe PAM is giving a bonus action attack with the butt end? Maybe even a 4th attack as a reaction if something comes into reach?

A jian is a type of chinese sword. Not really the kind of things a DM should allow PAM to work with.

[NaughtyTiger]

According to OP the PC did not use dual wielding. Also where do that first bonus attack come from?

OP did not mention dual weilding one way or the other. so she could have (unlikely) and he didn't notice.
he did mention homebrew jian, which could be light weapon.



Were they mounted and the mount getting an attack?
this is a good possibility.
haste, 2x attacks, mount = 4. (only 3 smites though)
silent action surge
+2 dueling style

[MThurston]

You can get 4 attacks per turn at level 10.

5 levels Paladin and 5 levels of warlock pact of the blade. Any time you attack with a pact weapon you can swing again. This gives 4 attacks per turn.

There is a Warlock ability that allows you to teleport but it is to the target. Not sure how they are getting away.

For example with the above you could hit 4 times and do 4d8 weapon damage, and up to 10d8 Smith damage. Two 2nd level and two 1st level spells.

So with a +4 damage that is 16+ 4d8 (20) + 10d8 (50) which would be an average of 86 damage in one turn.

[tieren]

You can get 4 attacks per turn at level 10.

5 levels Paladin and 5 levels of warlock pact of the blade. Any time you attack with a pact weapon you can swing again. This gives 4 attacks per turn.



Thats not the way it works, thirsting blade does not stack with extra attack.

[MThurston]

Thats not the way it works, thirsting blade does not stack with extra attack.

It does not stack at all. It works with it.

Anytime you make an attack with a pact weapon, you attack again.

So you do not get 3 attacks. You get 4.

[Xetheral]

It's possible to get 5 attacks with a polearm at level 9 as a Bladesinger 6/Hunter 3 with PAM. (1 Base + 1 Extra Attack + 1 Haste + 1 PAM + 1 Horde Breaker.) Only 4 can be on one target, however, and it doesn't sound like this character has levels in Hunter or is using a polearm.

[NaughtyTiger]

It does not stack at all. It works with it.

Anytime you make an attack with a pact weapon, you attack again.

So you do not get 3 attacks. You get 4.

This is explicitly discussing in multiclassing rules in PHB


If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.

[MThurston]

This is explicitly discussing in multiclassing rules in PHB

If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.

Yes, you are correct. It could be how this person is also misreading this rule.

[Xetheral]

Possibility: the character could be using GWM. With Haste, this would permit 4 attacks any round in which at least one of the 3 attacks is a crit. One or more crits would also go a long way to explaining the high damage output. If the Jian counts as heavy, they could also be getting +10 damge on each hit from GWM.

[RipTide]

This isn't possible with some of the set up you suggested if you follow the rules correctly without some serious home brew or magical items. It is possible if you badly misread the rules though

They have to be:
Minimum Paladin 2 (for smites)
Minimum Cavalier 3 (to actually be a Cavalier)
Minimum Bladesinger 2 (to actually be a Bladesinger )

My guess at that point is
Paladin 2
Cavalier 5 (the only way they can have extra attack and be a Cavalier)
Bladesinger 3 (Bladesinger 6 would get extra attack, but then they wouldn't have enough levels for Smites and be a Cavalier)

The teleport I would guess is a misreading of Misty Step, 2nd level spell, on the Wizard spell list, and they do have access to it. It is a bonus action not a reaction and can't be used to dodge attacks, but this is the only thing I can think of they might have with that much multi classing at that level. I think older versions might have been capable of dodging attacks so this is somewhat understandable.

For 4 attacks though... that is a lot of missing things. It would require a misreading of Haste, incorrect caster level calculation, and ignoring spell selection rules.

Haste is a 3rd level spell on the wizard spell list that can grant a single extra attack (not the attack action). It is possible to think you get a full attack action, so 2 attack actions with extra attack is 4 attacks. It should only get them 3 total with 1 attack action and 1 extra attack from haste.

That said they are only effective caster level of 4 (3 from Bladesinger and 1 from Paladin since Paladin only adds 1/2 caster level per level) so they shouldn't have any 3rd level slots. If they miscalculated and added 1 caster level per level of Paladin they could think they are caster level 5 and thus have 3rd level slots.

That said even with 3rd level slots, spell selection is restricted by class, not slots. So they are restricted to level 1 Paladin spells and level 2 Wizard spells for their spells known. However multi classing spell casting rules can be a bit confusing so I could easily see someone picking spells based on their slots rather than class levels.


If you ignore Cavalier it does become more possible for 4 attacks. Bladesinger 6 gets extra attack, and haste, and if they are using two weapon fighting you can get 4 attacks a round. If they went Paladin 2, Fighter 2, Bladesinger 6, they could get Two weapon fighting fighting style easily, and their asi at Bladesinger 4 to get the feat so attack mod to all damage with non light weapons is no problem. This would be the most likely rout they went I think.


For the high damage they dealt in one turn...

If they have 2 +2 weapons and a +5 damage from their modifier... that is (2+5)x4 = 28 guaranteed damage. And for dice that is 4d8 (weapon) + 8d8 (smite) so 12d8 +28, that's an average 5.25 damage per dice. D8s average 4.5 so that's not that far off.

Even if she has a mod of +3 that's only an average of 5.8 damage per dice.

With only 1 +2 magic weapon, the non +2 is only a single attack but that does push the average needed up to 6.1, still not impossible.


The teleport thing still seems suspect but depending on their exact build the rest is totally doable.

[pygmybatrider]

Dual wielding, Extra Attack and Haste can get you 4 attacks per round and be done at 5 Paladin/5 Wizard. Taking Fighter levels stuffs that up, but 3 Fighter/2 Paladin/5 Wizard can do it once per rest with Action surge.

Edit: wow this thread exploded after I hit reply but before I submitted my response. Not sure how relevant this info is at this stage!

[tieren]

If your not paying close attention the Blink spell might look like a player teleported away to avoid an attack.

My guess is we're looking at a Bladesinger 6/paladin 2/fighter 2, with plans on going cavalier but not there yet. Variant human to start with a feat for a bonus action attack (PAM, GWM, Dual wielder, etc...). They would be an effective 7th level caster with the slots to cast Blink, concentrate on Haste, and smite 4 times with first level slots.

They would be burning resources at an incredible rate, but could be done for the boss fight if they were totally fresh.

Probably put cavalier on the party list because they started fighter for the Con save (I would).

[Unoriginal]

The OP made clear the character wasn't dual-wielding, didn't cast a spell aside from the teleport (so no Haste), and a jian shouldn't qualify for PAM or GWF.

[Keravath]

The easiest way to four attacks and that level of damage would be:
PAM + GWM + Haste for 4 attacks and extra damage if everything hits? However, they are not using either a polearm or heavy weapon.

The other option is:
extra attack + two weapon fighting + haste = 4 attacks

However, two weapon fighting actually requires using 2 weapons unless the DM is allowing them to just attack again with their main hand weapon.

A 2 paladin/6 bladesinger/2 fighter variant human could have extra attack from bladesinger, PAM (assuming weapon can be treated as equivalent to quarterstaff?) from variant human or use 2 weapon fighting, and haste (plus one more feat or ASI) ... allowing for 4 attacks plus the option to action surge for 2 more attacks on one turn.

Either approach will give 4 attacks.

Also, a 2 paladin/6 bladesinger will have a lot more than 4 first level spell slots to smite with. If instead of using 4 level 1 slots they used a mix of higher level slots .. 91 damage gets much easier and all you would need to miss is the player stating which spell slots they used.


The link below doesn't list any reactions that match the spell you mentioned. Misty Escape (level 6 fey warlock) comes closest but you still take the damage. Misty Step is a bonus action spell you can cast on your turn so it doesn't avoid any damage either. You might need to ask about magic items.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389171-Master-of-Reactions-%97-A-Mini-Guide



I wouldn't necessarily accuse anyone of cheating. I've played in AL games at a store with very experienced players who still make mistakes. Also, whoever was DMing should have been aware of what each character was doing and if they have any questions they should ask. It is pretty much up to the DM to gently correct folks when they are making mistakes. I'd never let a player just say I do 91 damage :) ... everyone rolls on the table so the DM can see when a player does 91 damage.

It is the DMs job to monitor that what a character says they do is within the bounds of capability for that character ... so if you were the DM then you should ask the player during the game and if you aren't the DM ...then the DM should be asking.

[tieren]

The OP made clear the character wasn't dual-wielding, didn't cast a spell aside from the teleport (so no Haste), and a jian shouldn't qualify for PAM or GWF.

I disagree, they never said they weren't dual wielding, he just mentioned one magic weapon and noted they didn't think they had any other magic items, could be using a mundane weapon in the off hand.

Might even be using the shadow blade spell in the off hand. (if not concentrating on haste)

OP didn't notice any other spells but doesn't sound like they were paying very close attention until things started looking fishy, haste and blink could have already been running and they missed it.

Just realized with bladesong and haste both running this guy would be crazy fast too.

[Vorpalchicken]

Is the Jian the only homebrew?

[McSkrag]

I think it is very important to distinguish between a player who is cheating versus a player who is misinterpreting rules.

It's hard to tell with certainty based on OP's post, but it seems likely that the player is at least misinterpreting rules and the DM should take a look at the character sheet to clarify the rules with the player.

[Unoriginal]

I think it is very important to distinguish between a player who is cheating versus a player who is misinterpreting rules.

It's hard to tell with certainty based on OP's post, but it seems likely that the player is at least misinterpreting rules and the DM should take a look at the character sheet to clarify the rules with the player.

True. Checking the sheet would be the first move to do.

[Xetheral]

The bonus-action attack from GWM after a crit doesn't require a heavy weapon. Any kind of melee weapon works.

[TheChangelingMC]

OP here to clear up some confusion.

First off, target was an adult black dragon.

We play on Roll20 so I went back to check rolls.

We generally declare spells in chat by either rolling damage or linking utility spells. While she might have forgotten this particular instance there is no haste inked in chat.

Definitely no two weapon fighting, they only ever rolled with their Jian, just four times each round. No crits either if GWM is involved, but there's no additional damage in her rolls from that feat so I don't think she has it.

Went over the damage rolls for the 91, turns out that was legitimately just amazing rolling, there was 2 2's, a 4, and everything else was at least a 5. That wasnt really my biggest flag though, it was the 4 attacks, I just couldn't come up with a multiclassing that had it working.

I'll ask them before the next session to explain the way it works to me and update the thread when I know the answer.

[RipTide]

Two weapon fighting isn't impossible, if they have the same weapon in both hands and the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style there would be no difference between the attacks, so on Roll20 they could just run the exact same macro for all the attacks.

If they didn't have haste and two weapon fighting I don't see a rules legal way they could get 4 attacks in every round though.

[TheChangelingMC]

Two weapon fighting isn't impossible, if they have the same weapon in both hands and the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style there would be no difference between the attacks, so on Roll20 they could just run the exact same macro for all the attacks.

If they didn't have haste and two weapon fighting I don't see a rules legal way they could get 4 attacks in every round though.

I'm mostly discounting two weapon fighting since it's a Jian+2, having two of which should be impossible given the prices we had and the starting gold she got

[KOLE]

EDIT: Scrubbed, Missed the OP’s post before mine which made the entire post irrelevant.

[MaxWilson]

Here’s something more important. You as a player shouldn’t confront or confirm anything. The DM should do so. They should confirm whether the classes and abilities work together or not, and whether the character is legal for their game.

Bring it up to the DM. Let them handle it. Even if he’s your boyfriend it’s still the best way to do so, especially if you just restarted his game.

IMO this is wrong. The DM has enough on his plate running the world. He doesn't need to babysit the players on top of that.

If you have a party leader, it could be a job for them, otherwise... Either step up and start acting like a party leader, (kindly!) helping the other players get their business straight and resolve conflict, or shrug and let it go.

[Mr.Spastic]

They are probably messing something up. The only way to get four attacks is dual wielding at level 11 as a straight fighter. At level ten they couldn't even be able to make the mistake of stacking extra attack because of bladesinger.

[Mr.Spastic]

It does not stack at all. It works with it.

Anytime you make an attack with a pact weapon, you attack again.

So you do not get 3 attacks. You get 4.

Thirsting Blade States: You can Attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on Your Turn.

This does not stack with extra attack. And is explicitly referenced in the multi-classing rules.

[Mjolnirbear]

Wait... Could this not be a kensai with flurry of blows? Or is the Jian a monk weapon? Extra attack and a Ki point for two FOB attacks?

[Arkhios]

Wait... Could this not be a kensai with flurry of blows? Or is the Jian a monk weapon? Extra attack and a Ki point for two FOB attacks?

Jian is technically a Longsword, probably given a fancier name just because. Dungeon Master's Guide has suggestions to this kind of reflavoring, so it's not completely out of question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian

[Unoriginal]

Wait... Could this not be a kensai with flurry of blows? Or is the Jian a monk weapon? Extra attack and a Ki point for two FOB attacks?

Even with Flurry of Blow you can't have 4 attacks each turn. Well, unless if you have only one short combat.

[Mjolnirbear]

Or a lot of short rests, or someone not actually spending the Ki points they're using, or OP overestimated how many times this person gets four attacks. But 2 weapon attacks +2 FOB, plus 8d8 (4 smites)... 91 isn't impossible. I think its possible it's a legit build... But with paladin and wizard *and* monk? At level 10? I'd say it's far more likely they think if they have two normal attacks that their bonus action attack also doubles.

[Kadesh]

Paladin 2/Bladesinger 8 using Steel Wind Strike gets you 1/long rest Steel Wind Strike. It must be against different targets, and you cannot smite as they are Melee Spell Attacks, not Melee Weapon Attacks as required by Smite.

Alternatively, Far Step gives you the Teleport, and Scimitar of Speed can give you a Bonus Action Attack if you have Haste for the 4 Attacks, which you can then Smite with. You cannot Teleport and 4* Attack though, and requires someone else to cast Haste.

[TheChangelingMC]

OP here, an update for anyone still keeping tabs.

Had a discussion with the player and double-checked a few things with my boyfriend and I can now reveal how this came about.

According to the player, everything was unintentional, but obviously I'll be keeping an eye on them from now on.

The player is a blade singer wizard 8 / paladin 2 multiclass, with an extra attack from that blade singer.

There was an chat-undeclared haste before combat began which I must have missed (the voice chat isn't always the best) and she wasn't damaged between turns due to being on the other side of the dragon from most of the group where it aimed its breath attack, so no concentration save was rolled.

The biggest thing though is the Jian. Seems there was a miscommunication between my boyfriend and the player over the weapon. Because they were joining at level 10 they were given 2000 gold to buy a magic item of their choosing to try to bring them up to level a little. We have been using a rule for our soft reboot, since we were changing settings and leaving some of our gear behind, where you can buy a +1 weapon for 1000 more and a +2 for 2000 more, so a +2 weapon could be bought as she's making the character if she wanted absolutely no other items. Apparently, the player took that to include the Scimitar of Speed (which it doesn't, because of the extra effects and such)

With this, they were doing attack, extra attack, bonus attack, haste attack, every turn, and there in we have our 4.
The 91 is unusually high though now, since a Scimitar of Speed is a d6, not a d8, but the rolling was fair which is the important thing there. Hopefully now it's the right damage die she should be slightly more in line with rest of the party.

All in all, I'm still not convinced it was all unintentional (I'm not sure how she managed to make the scimitar a d8 of damage when roll20 allows you to drag items from their collection into your sheet and it's a d6 there) and didn't mention she was buying a Scimitar of Speed, just that it was a +2, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now until it happens again. Boyfriend agrees and says he won't say anything else to her about it unless it becomes a problem again.

…

I'm still unsure about the teleport reaction though, I'll have to wait for her to use it again, still haven't found anything that fits the description ability or spell.

[Kadesh]

OP here, an update for anyone still keeping tabs.

Had a discussion with the player and double-checked a few things with my boyfriend and I can now reveal how this came about.

According to the player, everything was unintentional, but obviously I'll be keeping an eye on them from now on.

The player is a blade singer wizard 8 / paladin 2 multiclass, with an extra attack from that blade singer.

There was an chat-undeclared haste before combat began which I must have missed (the voice chat isn't always the best) and she wasn't damaged between turns due to being on the other side of the dragon from most of the group where it aimed its breath attack, so no concentration save was rolled.

The biggest thing though is the Jian. Seems there was a miscommunication between my boyfriend and the player over the weapon. Because they were joining at level 10 they were given 2000 gold to buy a magic item of their choosing to try to bring them up to level a little. We have been using a rule for our soft reboot, since we were changing settings and leaving some of our gear behind, where you can buy a +1 weapon for 1000 more and a +2 for 2000 more, so a +2 weapon could be bought as she's making the character if she wanted absolutely no other items. Apparently, the player took that to include the Scimitar of Speed (which it doesn't, because of the extra effects and such)

With this, they were doing attack, extra attack, bonus attack, haste attack, every turn, and there in we have our 4.
The 91 is unusually high though now, since a Scimitar of Speed is a d6, not a d8, but the rolling was fair which is the important thing there. Hopefully now it's the right damage die she should be slightly more in line with rest of the party.

All in all, I'm still not convinced it was all unintentional (I'm not sure how she managed to make the scimitar a d8 of damage when roll20 allows you to drag items from their collection into your sheet and it's a d6 there) and didn't mention she was buying a Scimitar of Speed, just that it was a +2, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now until it happens again. Boyfriend agrees and says he won't say anything else to her about it unless it becomes a problem again.

…

I'm still unsure about the teleport reaction though, I'll have to wait for her to use it again, still haven't found anything that fits the description ability or spell.

Contingent Misty Step?

[TheChangelingMC]

Contingent Misty Step?

Problem is it's not a reaction. Arguably the bonus action could have be used, since it was a homebrewed effect on death, but that was used up for the 4th attack via Scimitar of Speed

[Kadesh]

Problem is it's not a reaction. Arguably the bonus action could have be used, since it was a homebrewed effect on death, but that was used up for the 4th attack via Scimitar of Speed

Contingent is a spell that allows a specific trigger to take place though. Although me being sense, it is a 6th level spell and your dude only has 4th.

[TheChangelingMC]

Contingent is a spell that allows a specific trigger to take place though. Although me being sense, it is a 6th level spell and your dude only has 4th.

Never heard of that spell before, good to know it exists. To add to the level issue, contingency also only allows storage of 1 action casting time spells, so misty step wouldn't be valid.

[Callak_Remier]

Actually the damage thing is still true. Even with a +5 ability score bonus you'd still need to roll an average of 5.25 on 12d8 to do 91 damage. That's not outside the realm of possibility it is still improbable. It's the kind of thing, that when I notice it, makes me want to look at your character sheet. I mean, it could be legit, it's just dice rolling. But it's enough to peak my interest, if only to find out how a character with 3 classes has a 20 in one attribute and what the other stats are.

Dueling fighting style adds +2 per hit