The Setting Neutral Minion Master Cleric

[RoboEmperor]

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[Goaty14]

Why the wizard dip? Pretty sure it's utilized a grand total times of never.

Also maybe you should ask your DM what makes a shenanigan and what doesn't instead of settling to perpetually cross off items from a list of stuff for him to retcon.

[Darrin]

Rune Domain (Spell Compendium) gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. Does that help?

[noob]

Why no castings of create lantern archon at low level for easy transportation?

Contemplative could replace the wizard dip and give you the needed domain.
You could instead dip in divine oracle and use domain substitution for replacing its bad domain by a domain giving an item creation feat.

[Selion]

One of my DMs did not like how I was using setting specific material in his campaign so he just retconned it all. He forced me to reclass into a Cleric. Since being able to google all of my old builds really helped me come up with this build in time for the game I am gonna continue posting my builds here.

Game Plan
Level 1 - Buy two dogs. Have them kill stuff while I stay back and heal them after battle.
Levels 2-5 - Buy a Heavy Warhorse or two. Have them kill stuff while I stay back and cast Conjure Ice Beast.
Level 5-8 - Buy a Lodestone Marauder and have it kill stuff while I stay back and cast Girallon's Blessing on it and sometimes Conjure Ice Beast, maybe with a Metamagic Rod of Substituion:Acid. Cast Extended Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor and Extended Persisted Elation. Also cast Animate Dead on strong things like Dire Bears.
Level 9-10 - Lesser Planar Bind a Ravid and a Rejkar. Have the Rejkar construct a Gargantuan Statue and have the Ravid perpetually animate it. Persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Persistent Blessing of the Righteous, along with Girallon's Blessing to deal 130.5 damage a round.
Level 11-14 - Planar Bind a Steel Predator and buy a Glyph Seal to give it Extended Persisted Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Blessing of the Righteous and Vigorous Circle along with Girallon's Blessing to do 165.5 damage a round, more on its pounce. Lesser Planar Bind a Quasit to act as a Telepathy telephone for me. Have the Ravid animate a Large Adamantine Object with me and the Quasit inside it.
Level 15+ - Planar Bind a Paeliryon for its at-will Meteor Swarm and Mind Blank. Use Metamagic Rods of Substitution:Acid to hurt fire immunes. Planar Bind an Ak’chazar from time to time to create Shadows I can Command.
Level 17+ - Use Wish to create Golems. Use Extract Demonic Essence to reduce the cost. Mithral Golems cost 7500xp. I can create Adamantine Golems and max its HD with a 2nd casting. I prefer the Hellfire Golem since it has intelligence and therefore Epic Feats.

Planar Binding:
1.Use Surge of Fortune for a 100% success chance.
2. Before the duration ends, order the outsider to fail its saving throw and Planar Bind it again. Only matters with the Paeliryon since it's the only thing capable of enacting revenge.
(optional) 3. If you can, buy a scroll of Gate and Mindrape to mindrape said Paeliryon into your fanatic zealot before Planar Binding it to make it agree to serving you for an eternity.

Rejected Stuff:
Nightsticks - Nightsticks is a Shenanigan
Divine Metamagic:Persistent Spell - DMM:Persist is a Shenanigan
Epic Spells - Epic Spells is a Shenanigan

Race: Illumian
Naen - +1 to intelligence checks
Hoon - +1 to wisdom and constitution checks
Naenhoon - 2 free metamagics a day using Rebuke Undead as Fuel.

Class: Cleric17/Wizard1/Cleric+
Domains: Demonic, Envy
Alternate Class Features
Spontaneous Domain Casting:Demonic
Divine Restoration: Traded out Envy Domain Power

Alignment: True Neutral
Rebuke/Command Undead

Ability Scores
25 Point Buy
STR - 9
DEX - 8
CON - 14
INT -14
WIS - 15
CHA - 12

Languages
Automatic: Common, Illumian
Bonus Languages: Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Terran, Ignan, Auran, Aquan

Skills:
All of the 1 point dips for trained skills are for Surge of Fortune + Divine Insight combo to succeed on all of them.
Concentration: MAX
Handle Animal: 2 (4)
Knowledge:Arcana: MAX - Colossus HD is too high. Even with Surge of Fortune and Divine Insight I only know of the Stone Colossus.
Knowledge:Engineering: 1 (2)
Knowledge:Dungeoneering: 1 (2)
Knowledge:Geography:1 (2)
Knowledge:Religion: 1
Knowledge:ThePlanes: 1
Speak Languages: 5
Spellcraft: MAX
Use Magic Device: 1 (2)

Feats
1 Extend
3 Persistent Spell
6 Extra Turning - 1 Extended Persistent Spell
9 Extra Turning - 2 Extended Persistent Spells
12 Craft Wondrous Item
15 Demon Mastery
W18 Scribe Scroll - Wizard Dip
18 Extract Demonic Essence - 7500xp to create a Mithral Golem
21 Eschew Materials
24 Ignore Material Components - With Rod of Excellent Magic and Extract Demonic Essence, one free 20hd Simulacrum a day.

Starting Equipment
Maximum Carry Weight - 90lbs
Starting Wealth: 125gp

Guard Dogs x2 - 50gp

Gauntlet, Spiked - 5gp, 1lbs
Scale mail - 50gp, 30lbs
Heavy Shield, Wooden - 7gp, 10lbs

Explorer's Outfit - 0gp, 0lbs
Backpack - 2gp, 2lbs
Waterskin - 1gp, 4lbs
Bedroll - 0.1gp, 5lbs
Rope, Hempen (50ft) - 1gp, 10lbs
Flint and Steel - 1gp, 0lbs
Torch x12 - 0.12gp, 12lbs

Leftover Gold - 7.78gp
Total Weight: 23lbs, 74lbs

TO DO: Spells I prepare regularly, Bibliography.

Spells to Extend and Persist
2: Elation - Allies gain +2 Morale to Str and Dex, +5 Speed (Bard 2, Cleric 2) (Book of Exalted Deeds)
3: Mass Lesser Vigor
4: Recitation - Allies gain +2 Luck to AC, Attack, and Saving throws (3 if they worship the same deity as you) (Cleric 4) (Spell Compendium)
4: Blessing of the Righteous - All allies deal 1d6 extra holy damage with attacks, and are considered Good-aligned (Cleric 4, Paladin 4) (Player's Handbook II)
5: Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
5: Righteous Might
6: Vigorous Circle

I usually don't play with such a level of optimization, even if i have to admit that it is a good mind exercise building a character this way and requires creativity.
Just a question, do your group play this way or are you just in need of proving a point?

[Feantar]

I didn't know about it was the primary reason. Secondary reason is I don't see any benefit of a lantern archon. It can only teleport itself and 50lbs of objects so while it's a good shop errand boy I don't think it can be used as a transportation vehicle.


Pick up a portable hole and/or bag of holding. Tell the archon to teleport with it where you want to go, then get inside. A round later, get out.

[Goaty14]

That's awesome! Wow, that solves my "Clerics don't have Teleport!" problem too! Nice! Yeah I'll have to make a note of this trick somewhere...

Great! Now you just gotta trust that a Lantern Archon (read: LG) isn't going to go dump a cleric with the Demonic domain off a cliff or something.

[noob]

I didn't know about it was the primary reason. Secondary reason is I don't see any benefit of a lantern archon. It can only teleport itself and 50lbs of objects so while it's a good shop errand boy I don't think it can be used as a transportation vehicle.

Contemplative cannot.
Fluff: Must meet a servant of a DEITY or a solar (or similar rank) of an ALIGNMENT
RAW: The character can choose any domain made available by her deity or alignment.

Deityless clerics can only get alignment domains from contemplative.

Substitute Domain (spell)
"Upon casting substitute domain, you can swap one of your current domains for another that your deity offers. You gain the granted power of the new domain, as well as access to any of its spells that you can cast—though you must still prepare the spells normally. While substitute domain is in effect, you lose the granted powers and spells of the domain to which you have given up access."

So Deityless clerics cannot benefit from this.



All my tables play this way. If they don't then I don't survive the interview. That's why interviews are important. If the DM is expecting a standard fighter with core only feats and a wizard who just supports the fighter in the forms of BFC then I am not a good fit, but if the DM is expecting barbarian uberchargers and metamagic reducer stacked wizards I am a good fit.

In fact my playstyle is generally suboptimal compared to real builds. The reason is minions. Minions are stronger than the normal fighter by far, but is inferior to the optimized barbarian by far. The DMs I play with know that damage is just a small, small part of the game, and instead of doing 4 v.s. 1 encounters he does 4 v.s. 6-8 with spellcasters casting BFC spells on us.

Now this latest table I was in, the DM said he could handle my usual trick (assume supernatural ability:Animate Objects + Scroll of Lesser Holy Transformation + Phylactery of Change for indefinite polymorph to a Ravid at level 5-6) but later told me he couldn't at level 6 so he asked me to switch to my old planar binding build so he has more tools to challenge me with at level 9+. So I built this cleric based on my older builds.

The Chief Culprit for my high damage on my minions is NOT free persistent spells, but Girallon's Blessing which is a spell in SpC. No shenanigans. Any cleric sorcerer or wizard can cast it. This spell gives you 4 additional natural attacks a round at Full BAB and Full STR Modifier. So a Gargantuan Animated Object instead of only doing 1 slam attack a round it is now doing 1 slam attack and 4 claw attacks so his +7 str damage isn't applied once, it's applied 5 times. Blessing of the Righteous gives everyone +1d6 damage per attack which isn't much, but if you are adding 5d6 a round it's a lot. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful adds 1 more attack and +3 damage to each attack. Again a Gargantuan Animated Object doing 2 slams and +6 damage is nothing, but with Girallon's blessing he is doing 2 slams and 4 claw attacks and therefore +18 damage from the spell.

So a Gargantuan Animated Object does 2d8+10 = 19 damage on average with a slam. So with Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Blessing of the Righteous he would doing (2d8+10+3+1d6)x2 = 51 damage a round. Girallon's Blessing adds 4 claw attacks which changes the formula to (2d8 + 7 + 3 + 1d6) x 2 + (1d4 + 7 + 3 + 1d6) x 4 = 45 + 64 = 109 damage. Girallon's Blessing also gives an additional Rend attack if you land 2 claw attacks so that's an additional 2d4 + 10 + 3 + 1d6 = 21.5 which is a grand total of 130.5 damage. So Girallon's Blessing gave him 79.5 more damage!

My build becomes SIGNIFICANTLY more tame if I just remove Girallon's Blessing. I might do that in this game. The Steel Predator has identical STR to the Gargantuan Animated Object so Girallon's Blessing also gives 79.5 damage. So if we take that out he does 86 damage a round.
I do not see a problem.
It is never said that you can not decide after picking the two first domains to later worship a deity and there is no reason for which you would lose your two domains then you can use all the god based things for domain access.
And for the "meeting with an enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment" you can probably just gate in one at level 17 then say "Hi now you can leave. Here is some financial compensation for the turn I took from you".

[SLOTHRPG95]

Could you explain how this gives you a Balor corpse? As I see it, either your statue-refining doesn't kill the Balor, in which case when you Stone to Flesh it you just have a pissed Balor, or it does in which case it explodes while you're chiseling away at it. Unless you're reading the text of Stone to Flesh to be "mindless, inert statue" means "inert in the sense of non-reactive, and hence will not explode if killed." Seems like this method banks on questionable word-lawyering. Otherwise, seems hilarious and inventive.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Stone to Flesh doesn't create a living creature. It either un-petrifies a petrified creature, or it creates a corpse.

So if you have a life-like statue of a creature, you will create a corpse of that creature with Stone to Flesh.

Stone Shape cannot create fine detail. It can only create a crude statue of a Balor, not a life-like, so you need to use your amazing sculpting skills to refine it to life-like. Then if you cast Stone to Flesh on the now life-like statue of a Balor you get a corpse of a Balor.

There is no killing of a Balor because there is no Balor.

I misread, I thought the idea was to Flesh to Stone a Balor, then "refine" it in such a way that it would be dead while still an inert statue, then Stone to Flesh it back to obtain the corpse. Stone Shape to create the original rough statue, and then polishing it up to look like a Balor, seems like a much more reasonable option. I think the only danger in that case is that reading the text of Stone to Flesh, I think this only works if you can convince your DM that Balor corpses exist. You couldn't, for example, make a statue of a fire elemental, Stone to Flesh it, and end up with a fire elemental corpse, since "fire elemental corpse" is a nonexistent thing. A similar argument might apply to Balors.

[Goaty14]

Are you really trusting your DM to take you seriously when you're equating the height/waist ratio of bodybuilder to that of a balor? Why not use the squeezing rules instead?

[OgresAreCute]

In any case I just got this approved by all my DMs. Only one said to wait until level 8 before I do this. Didn't even need to bring up the height to waist ratio.

I imagine most people don't spend too much time thinking about how big a Balor's pecs are.

[noob]

I imagine most people don't spend too much time thinking about how big a Balor's pecs are.

Yes because rules as written says that no matter how wide a balor is since they are large sized they can fit within a 5 foot cube and usually it is enough for most matters.

[noob]

Well, Stone to Flesh affects a 3ft circle which is the problem, it's smaller than a 5ft square.

Also where does it say large creatures fit in a 5ft cube? Squeezing only lets you reduce 1 dimension by half. So if a large creature is a 10ftx10ftx10ft cube, squeezing will be at most 5ftx10ftx10ft

Ok sorry a Balor can get only as small as an arbitrarily long column of the width of his head(if it use escape artist) or 5ftx10ftx10ft.

[unseenmage]

PAO is also Dispellable. No mention of the dispellable quality going away with form changes either.

I ran into this back when I was turning Permanency-ed Animated Objects of Obdurium statues into people via Incarnate Construct. (Turns out obdurium is purplish FYI, meaning the Incarnate C. creatures had purple metallic skin.)
DM's call if their old Construct-ness got jacked by Dispelling Screens or not. Or as to whether, after Incarnate C. had given them actual life, it even mattered.


Have you come to your senses about Simulacrum yet as it is just as, if not far more, potent than PAO?

[Goaty14]

If you use PAO to replicate the effects of Stone to Flesh it is instantaneous duration and therefore undispellable.

Wherein the PaO description does it say that duplicating the effects of another spell changes the spell descriptor? All I'm reading, "This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of...", means that PaO stays the same, but changes the effect.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Duration is part of the effect no? You're not using PaO to mimicking the effects of Stone to Flesh, you're using PaO like Miracle to completely replicate Stone to Flesh. PaO's duration is "see text". The duration for the Stone to Flesh effect is in the text of Stone to Flesh.

Look at the other spells PaO replicates. If it replicates Polymorph, do you calculate the duration based on PaO's chart? Or do you use Polymorph's duration? Consider the fact that Polymorph does not replace your Int score.

Same with Baleful Polymorph. Is the duration baesd on PaO's chart? Or is it permanent?

I agree with you on duration, but I think that unfortunately the same point of it being a duplication (except for purposes of save DC, if applicable) means it also takes on the normal target of Stone to Flesh. Hence this doesn't gain you any additional target volume.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Not that I care because I'm not gonna be using this trick but...

Shadow Conjuration, Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle uses their casting time and material components because those are fixed constants and the non-fixed variables have "see text". Same thing here. Area, casting time, etc. are all fixed but duration is see text so only duration would change because of the text.

Shadow Conjuration and its ilk mimic spells, they don't duplicate them. But even putting that aside, Shadow Conjuration and Limited Wish are made primarily for spell mimicry/duplication. PaO has a primary effect, so of course that's what its Range and Target refer to. This doesn't mean that's also used in duplication. For example, were you to use PaO to duplicate Flesh to Stone and the target were outside of Short range but within Medium range (for your CL), it'd still work. This even though PaO is normally a Short range spell.

[Selion]

Must DMs would argue that your character couldn't craft a reasonable balor without having seen one (a more realistic requirement would need an anatomical study of the corpse). The same thing applies to the prismatic dragon, your character probably ignores the existence of this being. Anyway, given the tag "optimization", let's optimize and have a few laughs at the thought of a contortionist balor

[Selion]

1. Contrary to your claim all the DMs at my table did not contest my Balor Skeleton. Only one asked me to wait until level 8.
2. I am using Divine Insight to pass the DC30 knowledge check to know of Balors so the Divine Magic here would infuse my brain with the physical appearance of the Balor. if you try to use Fluff to limit my Crunch then i can easily make up fluff to counter that. For example, if you say that nowhere does Divine Insight say it gives me the knowledge of how Balors look like I will say nowhere does it say that passing a Knowledge check does not result in knowledge of basic anatomy of the creature.
3. The Balor is only slightly bigger than the cylinder the Stone to Flesh spell affects. So it's not a contortionist squeezing into a small box, it's more like a Balor just shriveling himself up a little by folding his wings, lowering his head, hunching over a little, etc.

Older Prismatic Dragon on the other hand, it's gonna take a miraculous effort to beat those knowledge checks even with spells so they'll probably be unavailable for player use because of that. Not that I care because I'm staying the hell away from Polymorph Any Object.

OK ok, I'm not complaining anymore. Your builds are very creative anyway

[Anthrowhale]

...

Have you considered Dweomerkeeper? You seem to be conflicted over free wishes which is what Dweomerkeeper 4 gives you.

[Anthrowhale]

What about an LA+0 outsider using the spell domain instead of a changeling with the transformation domain?

Or using contemplative to pick up envy midgame so you can drop SF[conjuration] + malconvoker in favor of infernal bargainer and the demonic domain? Gaining back that lost level of spell access feels like a big deal.

Also, metamagic feats are easy for divine casters L17+ via Hierophant.

[Anthrowhale]

If you are deityless you can only grab alignment domains with contemplative. And Infernal Bargainer is only evil creatures so it won't give me access to Planetars.

The Malconvoker bonus doesn't hit until level Malconvoker 8 when you'll have greater planar binding anyways, right?

[SLOTHRPG95]

Ok it's settled, I will stay human.

I thought of a shenanigan. Good for me :)

1. Sheltered Vitality + Create Lantern Archon for free Lantern Archons for 1 hour
2. Have it spam Continual Flame for a mountain of everburning torches.
3a. Cast Lesser Planar Ally (preferably a Ravid) and pay it in Everburning Torches. I'll need 55 everburning torches for 1day/cl service. A Twinned Conjure Ice Beast III creating 8 ice wolves for 5 rounds resulting in 40d6 ice damage on top of a **** ton of ice wolf bites and slashes should auto-win me an encounter for the lesser planar ally xp cost.

or if civilization exists
3b. buy the stuff I need for a Balor Skeleton.

or
3c. Cast Create Lantern Archon again and pay that Lantern Archon 19 Everburning Torches for 1day/CL service!
GODDAMN I LOVE CREATE LANTERN ARCHON! IT'S A FREAKING AMAZING SPELL! <3 <3 <3

I've often run across things like this (or Wall of Iron for wealth-breaking, or Wall of Salt for a non-gold-dependent version) on this forum. But if you're doing this on a macro scale, you're going to cause the price of everburning torches (resp. iron, resp. salt) to plummet. This isn't just common sense talking, this is RAW. From p. 140 of the DMG (in the subsection on Supply and Demand):


The law of supply and demand can drastically affect the value of any currency. If characters start flashing around a lot of gold and pumping it into the local economy, merchants may quickly raise prices. This isn’t a matter of gouging the rich—it’s just the way a small economy works. A tavernkeeper who makes 100 gp from boarding a group of successful adventurers spends his newfound wealth just as the heroes did, and in a small town, everyone starts spending more in a short time. More spending means higher consumption, so goods and services become harder to come by, and prices increase.
Supply and demand can also affect the campaign in ways that don’t have anything directly to do with gold. For instance, if the local lord commandeered most of the region’s horses for his knights, then when the PCs decide to purchase half a dozen fine steeds, they find there aren’t any to be had at a reasonable price. They have to settle for second-rate nags or spend much more than they had planned to in order to convince someone to part
with a horse.

This isn't the only place where the idea of supply and demand is mentioned, either. Other examples include (but are not limited to) the price of swords and steel spiking after an iron shortage (DMG pp. 131, 139), and paying a high premium for expensive magic items due to local scarcity (PHB p. 112). I don't know exactly how many Ravids there are in your world, but it's quite likely that they form (at best) a relatively small economy on the Positive Energy Plane.

Finally, I'm not sure if a Ravid would even want to be paid in a large collection of everburning torches, or if it would value them at all. Their home (the Positive Energy Plane) is already constantly ricocheting with explosions of light and life, and so they wouldn't have much use for even one such torch. Admittedly, my knowledge of the RAW on this last point is a bit sketchy, but I know if you're offering a service instead of gold, it has to be something they actually want. That might also hold for non-cash-equivalent valuables, in which case 55 everburning torches wouldn't be an acceptable payment.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, you just seem to be the sort of person who likes every potential loophole in your build closed before it might come up before some DM. Hope these comments help.

[Anthrowhale]

If I go human I hit Malconvoker 8 at level 13 which unlike Infernal Bargainer gives me access to Planetars which gives me access to Miracle which gives me access to custom Miracle scrolls that replicate Simulacrum while ignoring the body part which happens at the same level as a pure wizard with eschew materials.

I don't think it works. Creating scrolls is not a listed ability of Miracle, so it is a 'special request', which is something like saying "DM, please screw up my plans here." I wouldn't be surprised if deitys fail to grant requests to all planar bound clerics as a matter of policy.

[gogogome]

I've often run across things like this (or Wall of Iron for wealth-breaking, or Wall of Salt for a non-gold-dependent version) on this forum. But if you're doing this on a macro scale, you're going to cause the price of everburning torches (resp. iron, resp. salt) to plummet. This isn't just common sense talking, this is RAW. From p. 140 of the DMG (in the subsection on Supply and Demand):



This isn't the only place where the idea of supply and demand is mentioned, either. Other examples include (but are not limited to) the price of swords and steel spiking after an iron shortage (DMG pp. 131, 139), and paying a high premium for expensive magic items due to local scarcity (PHB p. 112). I don't know exactly how many Ravids there are in your world, but it's quite likely that they form (at best) a relatively small economy on the Positive Energy Plane.

Finally, I'm not sure if a Ravid would even want to be paid in a large collection of everburning torches, or if it would value them at all. Their home (the Positive Energy Plane) is already constantly ricocheting with explosions of light and life, and so they wouldn't have much use for even one such torch. Admittedly, my knowledge of the RAW on this last point is a bit sketchy, but I know if you're offering a service instead of gold, it has to be something they actually want. That might also hold for non-cash-equivalent valuables, in which case 55 everburning torches wouldn't be an acceptable payment.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, you just seem to be the sort of person who likes every potential loophole in your build closed before it might come up before some DM. Hope these comments help.

Adjustment to the cost due to the law of supply and demand does not apply here because those are local conditions. Otherwise players can say "this sword costs 10,000gp in the eyes of a moron with my bluff check" and use that sword as a payment.

There's also Wall of Salt 4th level clerics have access to which will be more than sufficient payment for any creature really. Of course in my games I disallow any magically created items, be it via fabricate or otherwise, to be sold to prevent virtually all wealth by level breaking tricks.

edit:I will however allow Wall of Salt to pay for Lesser Planar Ally because Lesser Planar Binding does the same thing except without an XP cost so I don't see why a spell with an XP cost should be worse.

[Anthrowhale]

I have scribe scroll. The planetar merely provides the spell and caster level while I provide the feat, xp, and material components.

That's better, but a DM could still resist is by saying that the planetar's deity chooses to not grant the miracle spell to a bound Planetar. It's quite understandable for deities to not grant or more selectively grant spells to bound clerics even though that is unusual in general.

Another way a DM might feel free to gum up the plan is with the caster level and spell access of an 8HD planetar simulacrum. 8HD planetars are not defined objects in the game, so a DM is free to define what:

... it has only one-half of the real creature's ... Hit Dice .. and the appropriate ... special abilities for a creature of that ... HD...

[Anthrowhale]

That's like saying an evil cleric doesn't have access to cure light wounds because his deity is the god of necromancy.

This seems a notch less controlling because it's squashing a trick to gain excessive power rather than removing expected power. It also makes sense. A policy of 'no spells for captured clerics' would really devalue hostage taking.


... And divine spells aren't deity exclusive, your belief and worship of something generates divine magic.

Sure, but you can't rely on this for a bound Planetar.


Caster level is independent of HD.

I'm not worried about the HD part. Let me abstract more:

... only ... the appropriate ... special abilities for a creature of that ... HD ...
Spells are a special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells). Whether or not a 7HD Planetar has Cleric level 17 spell access is not defined so there is room for a DM to interpret as desired. A simulacrum of a 28HD Planetar doesn't have this ambiguity because a 14HD Planetar is defined.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Adjustment to the cost due to the law of supply and demand does not apply here because those are local conditions. Otherwise players can say "this sword costs 10,000gp in the eyes of a moron with my bluff check" and use that sword as a payment.

There's also Wall of Salt 4th level clerics have access to which will be more than sufficient payment for any creature really. Of course in my games I disallow any magically created items, be it via fabricate or otherwise, to be sold to prevent virtually all wealth by level breaking tricks.

edit:I will however allow Wall of Salt to pay for Lesser Planar Ally because Lesser Planar Binding does the same thing except without an XP cost so I don't see why a spell with an XP cost should be worse.

I did mention Wall of Salt, actually. Also, see above comments about how Outsider communities could potentially mimic a local community. Finally, not sure what your point is with the whole sword thing. Yes, value is in the eye of the beholder. If an individual deems a regular non-magical sword to be work 10Kgp then it makes sense that they'd accept it as such for a Planar Ally payment. If they have no use for swords and find them worthless (or salt, or whatever), then no they shouldn't accept a large quantity of them as payment.

[unseenmage]

You might be amused to know that there's a Mirror Mephit alternative in Pathfinder in the Winter Hag. When they act as part of a coven they get Simulacrum as a SLA too.

[Anthrowhale]

A few minor thoughts:

If you could find a deity with Demonic, Envy, and Rune domains, then you could use substitute domain to acquire Scribe Scroll on demand. The frees up a feat slot which could then be used to be a human with DMM[Fell Animate] and DMM[Persistent Spell].

If you want to be completely civilization-free, you need to be able to gather and refine the components necessary to create magical items. This may require Survival to find things and Craft to make them. It may also require knowledge[nature] to recognize and know where to search and possibly knowledge[dungoneering] for mineral items.

For more zombiefication, you could potentially cast Fell Animate Inflict Minor Wounds at levels 7&8. There is a chance of a save, but a will save is often quite low.

The potential of hired minions is substantially higher than just guard dogs. Riding dogs are significantly stronger, a heavy Warhorse more so, and a Griffon beyond even that. The Draconomicon gives very reasonable prices for even a hired dragon which is relevant into quite high levels. The Wild Cohort feat and further investment into animal handling could payoff here. Obviously, everything is subject to availability, but that's true even with guard dogs.

Caster level matters for Fell Animate, not cleric level. Given this, caster level boosts imply boosts in zombie control. There are many ways to do this in general.

[Oblivionsmurf]

Ahahahahahahha

I have added the SQUEEZING BALOR SKELETON

Balors are 12ft tall. A body builder has height to waste ratio of about 46%, this is circumference so the width of his hips are less than 23% so he is definitely less than 3 ft wide.

Stone to Flesh has a maximum area of 3ft diameter circle and height of 10ft. Balors are barely over this so by squeezing they are definitely under this.

So at level 5, create a Balor Statue with Stone Shape, refine it with a DC20 Craft:Sculpting check achieved by Divine Insight, buy a scroll of Surge of Fortune and Stone to Flesh. Use Owl's Wisdom, Divine Insight, and Surge of Fortune to UMD the Stone to Flesh scroll. Might need a scroll of Fox's Cunning too if I can't get a Gluttony Domain or Healer scroll of Stone to Flesh.

And Voila! A Balor corpse! With Desecrate I can Animate Dead it in one go and voila! A Balor Skeleton!!!!

Size/Type: Large Undead
Hit Dice: 20d12+20 (Desecrate) 150hp
Initiative: +12
Speed: 40 ft
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +8 Dex, +2 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Full Attack: 2 slams +22 melee (1d10+12) + 2 Claws +22 melee (1d6+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/Bludgeon
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +13, Will +12
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 27, Con 0, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 1
Feats: Improved Initiative
Challenge Rating: 8
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil

Total Cost: 1,125gp (Surge of Fortune) + 2,275gp (Stone to Flesh Gluttony Domain) + 500gp (Animate Dead) = 3900gp.

Much cheaper than the Lodestone Marauder, and much easier to access since I just need a Large Town for the Balor Skeleton while I need a small city for the Lodestone Marauder.

I have removed "No Shenanigan" from the title. Because this is a shenanigan that I will be using in 100% of my games!

I was about to say that I am not sure this one works, but the description of 'Stone to Flesh' notes that an ordinary statue turns into a 'corpse'. All I will note is that a corpse created from a Balor statute is not the same as an actual Balor corpse.

To the extent that you say your trick works, I assume the Balor is just to hold you over until you gain access to Simulcrum / Ice Assassin. You can then presumably use Stone to Flesh to create the relevant material component for the spell, and go to town.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I still disagree that the trick works, the above is just a more optimised means of using it).

[noob]

Maybe you will get a giant half demon corpse looking exactly like a balor instead of a balor?

[Anthrowhale]

I just found something AMAZING.

4 choose-your-own-domains makes being deity-less rather appealing.


edit: Riding Dogs are 150gp a piece, more than your 125gp starting gold so it has to be Guard Dogs.
Right: More advanced minions would come at higher levels.

[Oblivionsmurf]

I've ditched (or in the process of ditching) the Balor Skeleton. While I will still use this trick if the DM allows it's largely irrelevant at this point. Going with the two Tiger Zombies via Lesser Planar Exchange + Persistent Lesser Planar Exchange for a Celestial Griffon as my level 7-8 strategy. Why Tiger zombies and not Griffon Zombies? Because Celestial Griffons are good and Fiendish Tigers are Evil. Killing one is an evil act while killing the other is a good act.

We addressed this point in your other thread, but I'll repeat it below.

The spell description of Planar Exchange provides:


When you dismiss the spell, or when the creature is slain, you appear in the creature’s location, and it is returned to its home plane.

That is, you appear in exactly the same location that the creature was in. The Rules Compendium provides:


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell can’t appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it doesn’t have to remain within the range.

Separately to the above, if you interpret Dimensional Anchor as preventing the creature from returning when the spell is dismissed, presumably that interpretation also applies to Planar Binding; i.e., even if you set a discrete (one round) task to a creature called by Planar Binding, that unfortunate creature will be forced to wait out the duration of the Dimensional Anchor rather than being able to return as soon as the task is completed (as provided for in the Planar Binding spell description).

You mentioned something about how 'Appearing on top of the creature is not 0ft?' in that thread, but I didn't quite understand that comment (you don't appear on top of the creature under Planar Exchange, you appear in exactly the same location).

[Anthrowhale]

If you were building your own cleric (with a different shtick ofc), which 4 domains would you grab?

Time, Travel, Transformation, Shadow, Envy, Domination, and Spell stand out the most to me for spell access although Envy really requires Dweomerkeeper to fly. Animal grants Shapechange although very late.

Magic is the gateway to Dweomerkeeper which makes you a supercaster.

Pride, Fate, and Dream are great for defenses. Pride+Prestige Paladin+Serenity+Owl's Insight is "I always save".

War is solid in conjunction with Holy Warrior and the ability to make many attacks. A Sha'ir/Geomancer/Contemplative[War] could be fun.

Mother Cyst isn't a domain but it feels like one and is crazy good. Combine with a spontaneous cleric and Versatile Spellcaster for level 5(!) access to dominate person-ish.

Inquisition is required on dispel builds with Divine Defiance. It's granted by Church Inquisitor.

Knowledge is great for the skills and the divination spells are good to.

Sun Domain gives Greater Turning which is an encounter-ender amongst many undead.

In many situations I'd prefer an Archivist for the spell list although it takes more levels to kick in than a Cleric. Other times, spontaneous cleric + versatile spellcaster is a really nice chassis.

[unseenmage]

Oh yeah, I used to love Mother Cyst. The only domination effect in the game that pierces mind-affecting immunities. But Dispel Magic and AMFs render it worthless and that's when me and Mother Cyst parted ways.

You ever try using Greater Humanoid Essence combined with Mother Cyst?

[Anthrowhale]

Death Knell + Adept Spirit could increase your caster level by 2 at level 3+. There are many other ways to raise caster level as well....

[noob]

If I'm gonna embrace Psionics, might as well go all the way and use Psychic Reformation.

At level 17 through Psychic Reformation I can grab DMM:Twin Spell and DMM:repeat Spell to get 4 Rods of Excellent Magic or 4 Pearls of Power per Wish cast.

If Psychic Reformation is not allowed, no worries I still got my original 1 Rod build.
Fixed.
also while you get 4 wishes in one spell slot you pay the xp cost twice since it says it casts again the spell.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Are you sure about the component being consumed a 2nd time? I think the metamagic feat would explicitly mention something like that. Something about the spell failing if you don't have the requisite components, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

The only written in fail condition (besides being a touch range spell, as those are ineligible for Repeat Spell) is if it affects a target who moves more than 30 ft. away from their position. The relevant sentence that people point to when they say that the cost would apply again is:


A repeated spell is automatically cast again at the beginning of your turn in the following round.

But if this is interpreted as, "the spell is cast again, and hence as always when casting a spell the component(s) must be paid or the spell fails," then by similar logic, it'd also take up a second spell slot. After all, a Sorcerer can't cast a spell if they don't have the requisite slot, just the same way they can't do so if they don't have access to the (material, XP, whatever) component. If they try, it fails. But I don't think anyone wants to argue that either RAW or RAI require that you pay two slots for a Repeat Spell.

[ben-zayb]

Forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

[Deadline]

So this is all a spill over onto a public forum from an argument between a player and a DM? Is this really the place? Neither of you is making yourself look good here.

[Deadline]

I agree. But the fact is October31st is the one who created a new account solely to spill it over onto a public forum so I'd say he looks worse of the two. Much worse. Keep your vitrol in discord.

I'm in favor of not airing it in public. I don't think either of them looks better than the other in this case, but that's my own take on it.


I know, but when a guy creates a new account solely to spill this over onto a public forum, what can you do?

Well, and I'm probably going out on a radical new limb here but, don't respond?

Actually, nevermind. The forum rules link has been posted and I'm sure the mods will be by shortly.

I'm out.