How to make gunpowder scary

[Redhood101]

So I’m running a homebrew world. The story is basicly about this group of nazis killing all the non humans and mages so it’s a low magic world. I have introduced “black powder” (gun powder) as this brand new and rare invention. My problem is I want to later have an army invade with cannons and mortars and have that be a terrifying as possible. (Imagine being the first person to be shot at by a cannon of you had no idea what it was). My problem is it’s hard to make weapons like that feel as scary and epic as I wnat them too when my party can throw an explosive ball of fire from their hands!!! Any advice?

[hymer]

Description would seem to be a key element. Describe the loudness of the noise, the pounding of the air that can be felt through the body, the pain in the eardrums, that you can literally feel the earth shake, and that the solid wall struck vibrates, and pieces of the roof fall down around you.

If you feel you must have a mechanical element, I'd suggest a charisma saving throw when you are exposed to the noise the first time. It could cause psychic damage, or just instill an appropriate effect, like Frightened. You can then reduce the DC on the save as people get more used to the idea, so the shock factor and how it diminishes with exposure is taken into account. And you could set the DC for a cannon higher than a musket, which again is higher than a flintlock pistol.

On a larger, tactical level, the demoralizing effect (again more at first than later) would deplete morale in the subjected body of troops, making them less effective than you would expect.

[Boci]

If you feel you must have a mechanical element, I'd suggest a charisma saving throw when you are exposed to the noise the first time. It could cause psychic damage, or just instill an appropriate effect, like Frightened. You can then reduce the DC on the save as people get more used to the idea, so the shock factor and how it diminishes with exposure is taken into account. And you could set the DC for a cannon higher than a musket, which again is higher than a flintlock pistol.

Why would artillery be scarier than the first time your character has fireball cast on them? Artillery is not going to be any more destructive than than the various blasting spells, as the OP notes.

IMO range is probably a better thing to play up. Yeah sure, artillery is no more damaging than a spell, but it can be fired from miles away. The enemy has a gun line and is bombarding the area, the only way to reach them would be to march through the kill zone to get in range.

[hymer]

Why would artillery be scarier than the first time your character has fireball cast on them?
Because that's what OP is asking for. :smallsmile:

[Boci]

Because that's what OP is asking for. :smallsmile:

I'm pretty sure they want their players to be scared, and having them will save or get the frightened condition doesn't make the player scared, that's just the character.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why would artillery be scarier than the first time your character has fireball cast on them? Artillery is not going to be any more destructive than than the various blasting spells, as the OP notes.

IMO range is probably a better thing to play up. Yeah sure, artillery is no more damaging than a spell, but it can be fired from miles away. The enemy has a gun line and is bombarding the area, the only way to reach them would be to march through the kill zone to get in range.

Yep this.


Also, if early muskets are available play up how easy they make raising an army. Archers require a lot more training to be effective, while an arquebuser is generally going to be worse than a longbowman or crossbowman he can be trained quickly (and therefore replaced quickly if he's killed).

Another interesting thing is that early firearms and artillery might be louder than damage spells. This is both a blessing and a curse, while they're new they'll be more intimidating, but once they're understood it makes them a lot easier to notice.

But the big thing is the range. Even though ranges tend to be longer than they were in 4e (and most other fantasy games I've played), spells tend to have shorter effective ranges than most realistic ranged weapons, let alone dedicated artillery. Let the characters understand that this is artillery, but that it's something different to the seige weapons they'd be familiar with.

[JackPhoenix]

Guns won't be scary if there's capacity to do something similar already. It's a new thing, it's slightly different thing, but ultimately, not that different from a Fireball. And magic offers much worse possibilities than some AoE damage. There could be an invisible mage watching you when you think you're perfectly safe. There could be a mage reading your most private thoughts. There could be a mage making you just watching helplessly as his allies murder first your family, then you. There could be a mage controlling your mind. There could be a mage making you think you're covered with bees/spiders/flesh-eating worms. All before being able to cast Fireball. Gun is nothing compared to that.

Now, the difference between guns and magic is accessibility. Mages powerful enough to cast Fireball are (or should be) rare, while anyone can use gun. One gun isn't any scarrier than one Fireball-capable spellcaster, but for that one caster, you can have hundred or more gunners. Work with that.

[terodil]

To maybe add one idea to what others said about vivid descriptions, don't immediately reveal that it's artillery. Describe big booms, how people on the battlefield drop instantly, how trenches are obliterated. Have your players wonder what it is. Real-life knowledge might seep in, so perhaps introduce a red herring by having panicked soldiers scream about a monster belching fire or a terrible wizard blowing up their lines everywhere at once. Only have the smoke clear a while later and allow them to discover the line of gigantic iron-cast, lion-/dragon-/squirrel-headed cannon barrels aiming right at them...

[Arkhios]

add ballistic effects.

Sure, a wizard can lop a fireball with the flick of a wrist, but a cannonball can literally break walls and send any loose objects flying away from the point of impact.

So, try to imagine an area as big as fireball (and maybe as powerful damagewise as fireball) with the bonus effect that everything within that area is also thrown to the edges of the area without a chance to ignore it.

All that without magic is sure to be scary as hell.

[hymer]

I'm pretty sure they want their players to be scared, and having them will save or get the frightened condition doesn't make the player scared, that's just the character.
It's also just the character that gets attacked from a great distance, as you suggest. What's the distinction?

If you want the player to feel it, then we're back to how you describe the effects. You might get some reaction if the player doesn't know how to have the PC fight back, or if they are afraid of getting their characters killed, I suppose. But those come with their own sets of problems.

[Boci]

It's also just the character that gets attacked from a great distance, as you suggest. What's the distinction?

Because frightened isn't scary to the players. Its a debuff. Its no more scary to players than any other debuff: poisoned, restrained, and less scary to them than paralyzed, as when frightened they still get to act, albeit with penalties, and there will likely be party members who pass the save. By contrast, when the players are told the enemy is miles away, attacking them, and they cannot fight back, that has a much better chance of actually making them be afraid.

[Wub]

There is a big difference between a fireball and an explosion. Fireball deals fire damage, where it hits something and covers the area with fire. An explosion causes damage via shockwave impact and shrapnel. It's much more...real, as it were.
Each fireball is personal, hand-crafted, bespoke. A wizard can only make so many at a time.
Cannon-fire is impersonal, industrial, and as unrelenting as the economy backing it.

[hymer]

Because frightened isn't scary to the players. Its a debuff. Its no more scary to players than any other debuff: poisoned, restrained, and less scary to them than paralyzed, as when frightened they still get to act, albeit with penalties, and there will likely be party members who pass the save. By contrast, when the players are told the enemy is miles away, attacking them, and they cannot fight back, that has a much better chance of actually making them be afraid.
So it isn't a matter of whether it's mechanical, just that certain mechanics are more frightening to the players than others?

[JackPhoenix]

Because frightened isn't scary to the players. Its a debuff. Its no more scary to players than any other debuff: poisoned, restrained, and less scary to them than paralyzed, as when frightened they still get to act, albeit with penalties, and there will likely be party members who pass the save. By contrast, when the players are told the enemy is miles away, attacking them, and they cannot fight back, that has a much better chance of actually making them be afraid.

If the guns are brand new invention, they won't be attacking you from miles away. Early guns (not cannons) have lower effective range than longbows. And cannons are useless against small, mobile groups like typical adventuring parties are. Especially if they have magic at their disposal. That cannon won't do you much good if the fighter sneaks in under the cover of invisibility and slaughters the whole crew. Or if the warlock's imp familiar flies over and trops a lit torch into your powder supply.

Guns won't be scary if you have D&D-level magic.

[Boci]

If the guns are brand new invention, they won't be attacking you from miles away. Early guns (not cannons) have lower effective range than longbows. And cannons are useless against small, mobile groups like typical adventuring parties are. Especially if they have magic at their disposal. That cannon won't do you much good if the fighter sneaks in under the cover of invisibility and slaughters the whole crew. Or if the warlock's imp familiar flies over and trops a lit torch into your powder supply.

Guns won't be scary if you have D&D-level magic.

That's wierd, my GM notes say that by combining their knowledge with special metal ores and other chemicals not found in the real world, they are firing them from miles away. But you say they won't. I wonder which of us will be right when it comes to the gaming session.

Snark aside, yes, you are right, realistic guns won't do much. But, D&D is fantastical enough that even without spells, you have enough leeway to present things a little unrealistically with an in universe justification.


So it isn't a matter of whether it's mechanical, just that certain mechanics are more frightening to the players than others?

Pretty much. Idscriptions are obviously very valuable for making players scared, but when you want one specific thing to be scary, like artillery, the mechanics of it are going to be the deciding factor in the long run.

[Unoriginal]

Also if a bunch of donkey holes try to kill all the non-humans, it's only a question of one threatening move until all the elves, dwarves, halfings, gnomes, goblinoids, cat-/lizard/dragon-/hippo-/etc-people, giants, sapient trees, non-stupid humans and other beings attack them in retaliation and play football with their heads.

Hell, most of those beings would be able to build cannons on their own quickly and efficiently.

[Aett_Thorn]

Dismemberments instead of deaths. To describe the impacts, have people coming back from the front lines missing arms or legs. They weren’t killed outright, but are now in serious pain.

Watch battle scenes from the movie “The Patriot” to see what canons can do to armies that might just be mustering like normal.

Also, a magical world would likely have battlemages that specialize in protecting ranks of soldiers from things like fireballs. But those same ranks could be decimated by canons and firearms, and those mages are now useless and they don’t understand why.

[georgie_leech]

Also if a bunch of donkey holes try to kill all the non-humans, it's only a question of one threatening move until all the elves, dwarves, halfings, gnomes, goblinoids, cat-/lizard/dragon-/hippo-/etc-people, giants, sapient trees, non-stupid humans and other beings attack them in retaliation and play football with their heads.

Hell, most of those beings would be able to build cannons on their own quickly and efficiently.

I dunno about you, but I find "everyone has these new weapons and reason to use them" to be way scarier than "these specific jerks have powerful tools to cause general mayhem with."

[Boci]

Also if a bunch of donkey holes try to kill all the non-humans, it's only a question of one threatening move until all the elves, dwarves, halfings, gnomes, goblinoids, cat-/lizard/dragon-/hippo-/etc-people, giants, sapient trees, non-stupid humans and other beings attack them in retaliation and play football with their heads.

Hell, most of those beings would be able to build cannons on their own quickly and efficiently.

Yeah, that sounds like a great game:

DM: A bunch of nazis are killing non-humans and mages.
Player: We don't like that. We stop them.
DM: Oh no need for that, the rest of the world already ganged together and did that.

Seriously, why are you telling the DM how to run their scenario? They asked for how to make artillery scary, its strongly, strongly implied only the nazis will have artillery, not the races they are trying to exterminate.

[druid91]

Also if a bunch of donkey holes try to kill all the non-humans, it's only a question of one threatening move until all the elves, dwarves, halfings, gnomes, goblinoids, cat-/lizard/dragon-/hippo-/etc-people, giants, sapient trees, non-stupid humans and other beings attack them in retaliation and play football with their heads.

Hell, most of those beings would be able to build cannons on their own quickly and efficiently.

Until you realize that only humans get feats at level 1. Making them infinitely more versatile and powerful than nonhumans.

In any case. Personally I think comparing cannons to a fireball is a bit of a mistake. A cannonball wouldn't typically explode. It was just a big iron ball that would bounce through your lines killing anyone it hit, or smash through walls. I'd, mechanically, make it more along the lines of a line like lightning bolt.

The other thing of issue is that with both fireball and lightningbolt there's a big flash of light and power explaining what just happened. In the case of a cannon? There's a puff of smoke miles away and suddenly the people next to you are dead in the blink of an eye. No flash of light, no way for those unfamiliar with the function of a cannon to understand what just happened. Only the knowledge that the distant noise and plume of smoke means death.

[Wub]

Also if a bunch of donkey holes try to kill all the non-humans, it's only a question of one threatening move until all the elves, dwarves, halfings, gnomes, goblinoids, cat-/lizard/dragon-/hippo-/etc-people, giants, sapient trees, non-stupid humans and other beings attack them in retaliation and play football with their heads.

I mean, the Nazis had that exact problem in the end.

And if you're basing your enemy off the Nazis, I'd recommend engineering solutions to magical threats the evil army might face. What made the Nazi war machine scary was that they had been spending years developing new weapons and tactics made available by the growth of industry. France had tanks, but they didn't know how to use them most effectively since they weren't obsessively testing them. So long as they didn't get bogged down, they'd be able to sweep through the countryside before anybody could update their arsenal and trade blows effectively.

So for a magic setting, everyone should know that magic exists and is a threat. And anyone looking to conquer the world would be searching for ways to preemptively nullify anything that would threaten their plans.

[JackPhoenix]

Until you realize that only humans get feats at level 1. Making them infinitely more versatile and powerful than nonhumans.

Human *PCs* get feat at level 1. Maybe. If you're using two variant rules.

And NPCs don't have levels.

[druid91]

Human *PCs* get feat at level 1. Maybe. If you're using two variant rules.

any NPC that's human should receive the racial traits for being human. Just like any NPC that's an elf should receive the racial traits for being an elf.

Also those are 'variant rules' in the thoughts of AL only. I've yet to see a table that wasn't AL that doesn't use them. Especially given the ENTIRE BOOK is variant rules.

[JackPhoenix]

any NPC that's human should receive the racial traits for being human. Just like any NPC that's an elf should receive the racial traits for being an elf.

Also those are 'variant rules' in the thoughts of AL only. I've yet to see a table that wasn't AL that doesn't use them. Especially given the ENTIRE BOOK is variant rules.

No, there are exactly 3 variant rules in PHB: Feats, Multiclassing and variant human. And just because you haven't seen table that doesn't use them doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means your experience is limited. Plenty of people don't allow variant humans, because they think they are OP, and some people, even here on Giantitp, don't allow multiclassing and/or feats.

[Keltest]

As far as gunpowder goes, instead of just describing it as gunpowder, go out of your way to avoid naming anything or giving a precise description. The PCs don't actually see whats going on. Somebody in the distance is holding some sort of log sized contraption, and then suddenly theres a crack and a chunk of the terrain is missing, or somebody explodes. They cant even necessarily positively identify that the cannoneer is the one responsible because they weren't specifically watching for it.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, that sounds like a great game:

DM: A bunch of nazis are killing non-humans and mages.
Player: We don't like that. We stop them.
DM: Oh no need for that, the rest of the world already ganged together and did that.

If you want a game where the PCs have an impact, make a plot where the PCs have an impact. There is a difference between "Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star" and an hypothetical "Luke Skywalker stopping the Empire single-handily".


Seriously, why are you telling the DM how to run their scenario?

Oh I'm not telling them how to run their scenario. I'm telling the gaps I see in the scenario. How they want to address them, if they want to address them (as it is not a requirement), is up to them



They asked for how to make artillery scary, its strongly, strongly implied only the nazis will have artillery, not the races they are trying to exterminate.

Which doesn't make sense. Why would the other races who are also technologically capable not have them too?



Until you realize that only humans get feats at level 1. Making them infinitely more versatile and powerful than nonhumans.

Ah, yes, and this is why human individuals cannot be defeated by individuals of other species, be they elves, gnomes or dragonborn. Oh wait, it's not what happen.

One, no, having a feat at level 1 doesn't make you "infinitely more versatile and powerful". It doesn't even make you that powerful.

Two, most persons don't have levels.

Humans are not more powerful than other humanoids. And even if they were, lvl 1 humans aren't more powerful than giants, or treant, or the other beings mentioned on my list.



The other thing of issue is that with both fireball and lightningbolt there's a big flash of light and power explaining what just happened. In the case of a cannon? There's a puff of smoke miles away and suddenly the people next to you are dead in the blink of an eye. No flash of light, no way for those unfamiliar with the function of a cannon to understand what just happened. Only the knowledge that the distant noise and plume of smoke means death.

If you're unfamiliar with it, sure, it's impressive, but the loud boom and the shrieking of the wind as the cannonball goes through the air would soon become known.


I mean, the Nazis had that exact problem in the end.

Well yeah. WWII movies usually don't involve a group of 4-7 people saving the whole world for a reason.


any NPC that's human should receive the racial traits for being human. Just like any NPC that's an elf should receive the racial traits for being an elf.

Actually, no. The DMG makes clear that human NPCs don't get racial mods. And even if they did, there is the standard human racial modifiers.



Also those are 'variant rules' in the thoughts of AL only. I've yet to see a table that wasn't AL that doesn't use them. Especially given the ENTIRE BOOK is variant rules.

That's blatant sophistry. It's not because a lot of people use them that variant humans are not a variant of the standard humans.

And once again, feats aren't that powerful.


As far as gunpowder goes, instead of just describing it as gunpowder, go out of your way to avoid naming anything or giving a precise description. The PCs don't actually see whats going on. Somebody in the distance is holding some sort of log sized contraption, and then suddenly theres a crack and a chunk of the terrain is missing, or somebody explodes. They cant even necessarily positively identify that the cannoneer is the one responsible because they weren't specifically watching for it.

This would be efficient, yes.

Fog of war, people getting reaped by artillery without anyone knowing what's going on, people fleeing, etc.

[Boci]

If you want a game where the PCs have an impact, make a plot where the PCs have an impact. There is a difference between "Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star" and an hypothetical "Luke Skywalker stopping the Empire single-handily".

Why? Is it badwrongfun if the players enjoy "Luke Skywalker stopping the Empire single-handily".

You're giving unsolicited advice, so I would say you need to be waaay more polite about it. Ask if they are interested in hearing your thoughts about the setup beyond the help they asked for in the OP. Don't arrogantly assume that the OP just has to hear your feedback on a game you will never play in or GM.

[Wub]

Well yeah. WWII movies usually don't involve a group of 4-7 people saving the whole world for a reason.


Avatar: the Last Airbender pulled it off pretty well. Fantasy setting where one nation industrializes their military, then everyone else makes a disorganized defense or ignores the looming threat until the heroes pull everyone together.

[Unoriginal]

Avatar: the Last Airbender pulled it off pretty well. Fantasy setting where one nation industrializes their military, then everyone else makes a disorganized defense or ignores the looming threat until the heroes pull everyone together.

That one wasn't a WWII situation, though, and the Earth Kingdom and the Water Tribes did fight the Fire Nation, without disorganized defense or ignored looming threat before the heroes showed up.

Plus the heroes won by defeating the ruler of the Fire Nation and having the legitimate next holder of the title end the war, AFTER the Fire Nation had conquered 99% of the world, but before Ozai started his extermination of the Earth Kingdom people. Because exterminating them wasn't part of the plan from the start (like in OP's post), that was decided maybe a couple months before execution because the Fire Nation thought it was too hard to keep an hold on a territory so vast.

[Wub]

It was a direct reference to imperial Japan, and while each nation had their own military ('cept the air monks :smallfrown: ), they were usually isolated from the other nations and fought alone. And like WWII, some people were even in denial like how Ba Sing Sei had counter-intelligence operatives trying to keep a lid on information about the war.

[Maelynn]

Make cannonballs that have the effect of a cluster bomb, with shrapnel blasting through everything and turning people into bloody Swiss cheeses. Describe it in detail: how someone (PC or NPC) suddenly finds themselves perforated, pains in their liver and spleen and all over their face, difficult and rattling breaths because their lungs are filled with burnt powder and splinters, snapped bones sticking out of a hole in their arm, a small loop of gut hanging out of a slit in their abdomen.

Make it worse by making the wounds hard to heal with Cure Wounds or Healing Potions. There's something in this gunpowder that interferes with conventional healing methods. What is it, magic? All you know is that it hurts, and that you can't do anything about it. Your hand is dangling from nothing but a sinew, after it was almost severed by a shot of hail... yeah, good luck with that, buddy.