SWSE: Building Starships; Weapons

[Greymane]

So I'm still getting used to this darn system, given my game is running so very slowly. But my players are interested in building their own ship from scratch. However, the player feels, and this is assuming we're reading this correctly... the costs for weapons and a few other components get to outlandish prices with the modifier for the type of starship.

His argument is that something like a Laser cannon does the same damage on a Fighter as it does on a Space Station (again, assuming I'm reading these rules right), but costs a ridiculous amount more money on the State than on the Fighter. And that shouldn't be the case, the laser cannon is probably bigger on the States or a Frigate, and should deal more damage for that extra price.

The section says the gamemaster ought to gauge prices on a case-by-case basis, though. And I assume the player is only bringing this up because he wants to load up their ship-to-be with guns, and doesn't want to pay more money for something that's just as good on a Tie Fighter as it is on a Frigate.

So, are weapons systems just more expensive for the size? They don't deal any more damage than usual because they're on a bigger ship, right?

[BioCharge]

They're actually not that expensive. What you and your player is missing is that weapons are one of the few items that are not affected by a ship's cost modifier. I presume you're looking in Starships of the Galaxy, correct? If you look at other sections, say, shields, it will give the price as credits base. Weapons do not have this notation in their entries on the table, and thus do not have their prices modified by the ship's size.

[Sparx MacGyver]

@BioCharge is right, weapons don't get effected by the cost modifier of the ship. So assuming something the size of the YT-1300, that's a X5. Shields rated at 55 will run you 6,000 base, so that brings us to 30,000 credits for the max shields that ship can carry (without using some gm fiat).

That carries through to everything else on a ship, except weapons. That medium Laser cannon is just a mere 4,000 credits. No other modifiers for the ships size. What usually kills these things is the Emplacement Points. They prevent ships from being pocket battleships, with more firepower than a Star Destroyer.

[Greymane]

Thanks for the responses, guys. That makes a lot more sense, overrall. And we've actually had a lot of fun going over the Emplacement Points and designing ships.

Though, it really feels like many ships are just... better than others, Emplacement Points-wise. The YT-1300 seems to stand head-and-shoulders over most ships of its size due to the 10(!) Emplacement points it has.

Likewise the Citadel-Class Cruiser seems way amazing for its price, the amount of stuff it starts with, and the extra Emplacement Points. And Designing a ship from scratch looks like it's normally inferior.

So many things in this system I can safely file under "interesting, but not stress-tested very well."

On the note of weapons! Does anyone know why so many "Medium Concussion Missiles" show up as 8d10 damage, when that system is specified as being 7d10 for Light Missiles and 9d10 for Medium Missiles?

Edit: I'm going to add something else I was planning for another campaign as well, since it's also about ships, and I don't want to mangle the forum with my posts; I miss the SWSE General threads.

So I'm in the planning stages for running another game, and with the premise, I was going to take an idea from the SWTOR MMO. Its poor gameplay notwithstanding, I liked a lot of the story and ideas the game had. I'll spoiler the background information, since it's not completely relevent, but I would love to hear if anyone has more ideas on it, especially if the idea sounds half-baked. Because what I'm doing is pretty non-canon, and ideas on how NPCs and factions would react would be welcome.

Darth Ikoral (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Ikoral), a pureblood Sith of the Sith Empire, was so obsessed with his racial superiority he went looking for more Sith that may have survived the Great Hyperspace War. When he finally got back 70-years later, the Empire had aliens in the Sith ranks, which angered and disgusted Ikoral, and he used his new-found pureblood Sith army of thousands to attack the Empire. He was killed.

However, I liked the premise, and on his ship there's even pureblood Sith being kept in stasis; and that's the idea I wanted to run with.

Party would either start in a remote hidden complex, or on a http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harrower-Class Dreadnought (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harrower-class_dreadnought), woke up from stasis, and curb some sort of crisis that the automated systems/droids can't contend with. Either spacers scavenging the ship, or pirates looting and trying to commandeer it. Something like that. Players are Sith Purebloods, Kissai, or Massassi, and get out of stasis to contend with the emergency. After it's dealt with, the party realizes the ship they're on is basically a seed ship- predominantly full of civilians, all Sith, men, women and children that Darth Ikoral was originally going to use to expand the Sith Empire's holdings. To make matters worse, the computer indicates it's been 3630~ish years since they've been put in stasis.

Set during the Dark Times, the players find themselves in an era they scarcely understand, with an old ship in dire need of maintenance, and a few thousand people that they need to figure out what to do with, and how to survive. Palpatine's Empire is likely to be very hostile to a large group of pre-Banite Sith, and I'm operating under the assumption he would want them destroyed- creating a hostile galaxy for the players.

It's a really sand-boxy concept. Not sure how well it'll all work.

SAGA doesn't have any statistics on a http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harrower-class_dreadnought, and I was wondering how the Playground would recommend statting it up. It seems to be much smaller than most modern Star Destroyers, but has a seriously huge fighter compliment. Should I try using the Starships of the Galaxy to stat one up from scratch, or do you guys think slapping on the Archaic Ship Template on a Star Destroyer would cut it?

[Mando Knight]

Thanks for the responses, guys. That makes a lot more sense, overrall. And we've actually had a lot of fun going over the Emplacement Points and designing ships.

Though, it really feels like many ships are just... better than others, Emplacement Points-wise. The YT-1300 seems to stand head-and-shoulders over most ships of its size due to the 10(!) Emplacement points it has.

Likewise the Citadel-Class Cruiser seems way amazing for its price, the amount of stuff it starts with, and the extra Emplacement Points. And Designing a ship from scratch looks like it's normally inferior.

So many things in this system I can safely file under "interesting, but not stress-tested very well."

On the note of weapons! Does anyone know why so many "Medium Concussion Missiles" show up as 8d10 damage, when that system is specified as being 7d10 for Light Missiles and 9d10 for Medium Missiles?

The pre-built statblocks are usually derivatives and translations from earlier systems (possibly even a third or fourth-degree translation from WEG into SWd20 into RCR), and don't necessarily follow the rules for the starship modification system.

The "build from scratch" system is also built to reflect the capabilities of a home-built ship at a typical shipyard (i.e. explicitly not CEC, KDY, or any of the other major starship manufacturers): you aren't supposed to be able to beat a YT-1300 or an Imperial Star Destroyer using that system. It's similar to the difference between building a muscle car in a well-equipped auto shop versus hot rodding an existing Camaro or Mustang.

You may also want to look up the old Jedi Counseling articles: while the system is intended to help GMs avoid letting players build pocket Star Destroyers, cargo conversion into Emplacement Points as-written can get out of hand, and Jedi Counseling 115 includes further advice and clarifications for the shipbuilding rules to try to mitigate the issue.


SAGA doesn't have any statistics on a http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harrower-class_dreadnought, and I was wondering how the Playground would recommend statting it up. It seems to be much smaller than most modern Star Destroyers, but has a seriously huge fighter compliment. Should I try using the Starships of the Galaxy to stat one up from scratch, or do you guys think slapping on the Archaic Ship Template on a Star Destroyer would cut it?

Since the target period is the Dark Times, I'd use the Archaic template on a Victory class Star Destroyer rather than the larger ISD, then handwave the difference in the fighter complement (which would be Archaic TIEs, or A/Y-Wings if you want them to have shields).

[Greymane]

The pre-built statblocks are usually derivatives and translations from earlier systems (possibly even a third or fourth-degree translation from WEG into SWd20 into RCR), and don't necessarily follow the rules for the starship modification system.

The "build from scratch" system is also built to reflect the capabilities of a home-built ship at a typical shipyard (i.e. explicitly not CEC, KDY, or any of the other major starship manufacturers): you aren't supposed to be able to beat a YT-1300 or an Imperial Star Destroyer using that system. It's similar to the difference between building a muscle car in a well-equipped auto shop versus hot rodding an existing Camaro or Mustang.

You may also want to look up the old Jedi Counseling articles: while the system is intended to help GMs avoid letting players build pocket Star Destroyers, cargo conversion into Emplacement Points as-written can get out of hand, and Jedi Counseling 115 includes further advice and clarifications for the shipbuilding rules to try to mitigate the issue.

The pulling of stat blocks sounds very bizarre to me, but it saves on time. The annoying thing that's happening now, is that my player designing and customizing ships is now always asking me "Does pulling these Concussion Missiles out of the ship give me 2 or 5 Emplacement Points?" and I never had an answer for him. A difference of 3 Emplacement Points is a pretty big deal, especially for something like a starfighter.

And he did come up to be about the cargo conversion and the removing passengers for ludicrous amounts of Emplacement Points. I looked up the Jedi Counseling you recommended, as as someone whose roots comes from playing and DMing D&D, I find the "This doesn't work because I say so" really doesn't appeal to me. I'm used to using the RAW as my cudgel to enforce what's permitted, and the design philosophy of this system is pretty different in that regard. I suspect I'll get groaning from my players too, since they, too, rely heavily on RAW. Ces't la vie. Different system, different mechanics.

But I do like the argument that building from scratch should not yield as good of a ship. You and the author of the article do make a good point on that.


Since the target period is the Dark Times, I'd use the Archaic template on a Victory class Star Destroyer rather than the larger ISD, then handwave the difference in the fighter complement (which would be Archaic TIEs, or A/Y-Wings if you want them to have shields).

Yeah, that's probably better. I must be rusty on my lore, I'd forgotten Victory Class were smaller. Compliment appears to be Mark VI Supremacy-class Starfighters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_VI_Supremacy-class_starfighter), B28 Extinction-class Bombers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/B28_Extinction-class_bomber), and Imperial Assault Shuttles (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_assault_shuttle). So Archaic TIE Fighters, TIE Bombers and... Lambda shuttles? LAATI's would probably be better. Not sure if they're hyperdrive capable.

Thanks for all the info, Mando Knight.

Oh, do Ion weapons seem a little anemic in space battles to anyone else?

[Mando Knight]

The pulling of stat blocks sounds very bizarre to me, but it saves on time. The annoying thing that's happening now, is that my player designing and customizing ships is now always asking me "Does pulling these Concussion Missiles out of the ship give me 2 or 5 Emplacement Points?" and I never had an answer for him. A difference of 3 Emplacement Points is a pretty big deal, especially for something like a starfighter.

Treat it like a light missile launcher (even if it says it's medium) on almost any starfighter, unless it has a really large missile bay (i.e. at least as large as a medium launcher's 16 base capacity). I'd also consider reducing the price cost of adding additional missile capacity to the launcher, or let them expend half the price and EP to install a larger missile bay.

I think a more robust customization system would look more like 'Mech construction in BattleTech, but wholesale replacing the existing game design for something else is far beyond the scope of what you probably want.


Oh, do Ion weapons seem a little anemic in space battles to anyone else?

Ion weapons are RAW unclear (what's the order of operations on reducing ion damage?) and deal pathetic damage. I'd probably recommend the following clarifications and adjustments:

Damage from ion and stun weapons is reduced by SR and DR before being halved for total HP damage. (This is less a houserule, and more the only way ion weapons can actually do anything to any similarly-sized shielded vehicle in the entire game)
If a stun or ion weapon's full damage (before being halved) exceeds a target's SR, the SR is reduced by 5. (A natural consequence of the above clarification)
(An optional "Ion is very effective against shielded targets" rule): If an ion weapon hits a shielded target, the target's SR is reduced by an additional 5 points after calculating damage (in addition to any SR reduction from other sources, including exceeding the target's SR or using the Shield Hit maneuver)
(And another optional "Let's have ion damage straight-up cripple ships" rule): When comparing an ion weapon's damage (before being halved) against a valid shielded target's damage threshold, ignore the target's SR. With this change, the target should probably only move -1 step down the condition track instead of -2 (but move another -1 if the halved, post-SR damage still exceeds the damage threshold).

[Torpin]

On the note of weapons! Does anyone know why so many "Medium Concussion Missiles" show up as 8d10 damage, when that system is specified as being 7d10 for Light Missiles and 9d10 for Medium Missiles?


treat as light missiles with a modifcation, so treat it as 3 emplacement points.