Cantrips. Am I stuck with them?

[shogahin]

I have tried searches covering my questions with no luck. If my questions have been answered somewhere, please point me to them with my thanks. Now, to my questions.

Q) Are all spellcasters stuck with the same cantrips they picked at character creation or is there some way to change them over the course of play?


Q) Specifically the Sorcerer, can change a single spell at each level but it does not indicate you can do this with a cantrip. Trading a cantrip for another cantrip. Is there a way?

Thanks,

Shoga

[Tanarii]

RAW, yes you are stuck with them.


However:

AL (official play) allows you to completely rebuild your character before level 5. So you aren't stuck with them as you sound out your character and see what you like.

And a home game is a home game. If you don't like something, ask your DM for a favor.

[shogahin]

Thanks, I kinda figured that but wanted to verify.

Shoga

[nickl_2000]

Thanks, I kinda figured that but wanted to verify.

Shoga

If you aren't play AL talk it over with your DM. The DM may let you switch them out as a one time thing. If not, then look at multiclassing into a different class that also gets cantrips and matches you main stat. You can get a lot of versatility that way

[The Aboleth]

If you aren't play AL talk it over with your DM. The DM may let you switch them out as a one time thing. If not, then look at multiclassing into a different class that also gets cantrips and matches you main stat. You can get a lot of versatility that way

Similarly, picking up the Magic Initiate feat would give you two additional cantrips of your choice, plus a 1st-level spell. May or may not be ideal depending on your character's build, but it's an option nonetheless.

[Mortis_Elrod]

in my games we let each other switch cantrips out for cantrips but it counts for your spell switch for level up.

[JakOfAllTirades]

in my games we let each other switch cantrips out for cantrips but it counts for your spell switch for level up.

That's an excellent house rule.

Consider it borrowed.

[Mortis_Elrod]

That's an excellent house rule.

Consider it borrowed.

to be honest it came from a misunderstanding of the rules, but even after we said its still fine.


No reason why anyone should disallow this fun rule. Changing cantrips definitely helps some casters more than others, but its no more powerful than changing a first level spell to a 3rd level spell.

[DarkKnightJin]

to be honest it came from a misunderstanding of the rules, but even after we said its still fine.


No reason why anyone should disallow this fun rule. Changing cantrips definitely helps some casters more than others, but its no more powerful than changing a first level spell to a 3rd level spell.

I asked my EK'S DM if I would be allowed to swap out Control Flames for Sword Burst on level up, and they allowed me to do it.

I don't know if it's a one-time thing, but I openly told him that by RAW it was probably not allowed, but they didn't see a problem with allowing me to swap my cantrip instead of a leveled spell.

[Arkhios]

to be honest it came from a misunderstanding of the rules, but even after we said its still fine.


No reason why anyone should disallow this fun rule. Changing cantrips definitely helps some casters more than others, but its no more powerful than changing a first level spell to a 3rd level spell.

Actually, I wouldn't say it's too far from RAW, because cantrips are 0-level spells:



Every spell has a level from 0 to 9. A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is, with the lowly (but still impressive) magic missile at 1st level and the earth-shaking wish at 9th. Cantrips—simple but powerful spells that characters can cast almost by rote—are level 0. The higher a spell’s level, the higher level a spellcaster must be to use that spell.

Spell level and character level don’t correspond directly. Typically, a character has to be at least 17th level, not 9th level, to cast a 9th-level spell.

[DarkKnightJin]

Actually, I wouldn't say it's too far from RAW, because cantrips are 0-level spells:

Most sections outlining a 'Spells Known' swap on level up also talk about swapping a spell of 1st level or higher. And/or Cantrips are in a separate paragraph under the Spellcasting class feature.

A case can be made for either side. Cantrips are minor spells that your character knows by heart and can do with barely a thought or expenditure of arcane/divine energy.
It wouldn't really make sense to suddenly 'forget' how to do something you knew instinctively just the day before.

[Arkhios]

Most sections outlining a 'Spells Known' swap on level up also talk about swapping a spell of 1st level or higher. And/or Cantrips are in a separate paragraph under the Spellcasting class feature.

A case can be made for either side. Cantrips are minor spells that your character knows by heart and can do with barely a thought or expenditure of arcane/divine energy.
It wouldn't really make sense to suddenly 'forget' how to do something you knew instinctively just the day before.

Cantrips are not minor spells, they are simple spells, but powerful nontheless. There's a difference. The rules text specifically mentions that, as I quoted above.
However, it's true that cantrips are mentioned separately for each class that gets them. But that doesn't change the fact they are still 0-level spells. I'm not arguing that these sections talking about swapping spells of 1st-level and above would allow swapping cantrips level by level by RAW, I'm just saying that because they do still count as spells, it does make sense from the RAW point of view to allow it.

[shogahin]

Similarly, picking up the Magic Initiate feat would give you two additional cantrips of your choice, plus a 1st-level spell. May or may not be ideal depending on your character's build, but it's an option nonetheless.

I really considered Magic Initiate feat option with going Warlock as my choice. Talked to my DM and we hashed it out amiably. We agreed that I could trade out any of my cantrips that I hadn't used for new ones as a one-time deal. I was cool with that.


Shoga

[JNAProductions]

Is it RAW?

I don't think so. AFB, but pretty sure you can only swap 1st level or higher spells.

Would I allow it?

On a limited basis. If you want to swap cantrips every day, no. Every level-up, still probably no. But if you find that you never use, say, Mending, and haven't for the past 5 levels... Go for it.

[Keravath]

I think the reason cantrips are excluded from the swapping in the first place is to prevent characters swapping cantrips for leveled spells. On the other hand, allowing cantrips to be swapped as long as you retain the number of cantrips you are supposed to have at a given level wouldn’t break anything.

[EggKookoo]

I let my spellcasters replace any number of spells (including cantrips) whenever they gain a level that also increases either their spells known or spell slots available. It's kind of silly to lock someone into those kinds of choices for the entire career of their character. I actually do this with all class features that offer options, such as Fighting Style, although in practice I haven't had a player want to do that (yet).

The only thing I probably wouldn't do is allow a wholesale subclass swapout. At that point you might as well create an entirely new character from the ground up. But again, hasn't yet been an issue.

[Arkhios]

The only thing I probably wouldn't do is allow a wholesale subclass swapout. At that point you might as well create an entirely new character from the ground up. But again, hasn't yet been an issue.

Paladins can occasionally find their agendas changing for various reasons, and DMG does take this possibility into account and provides the Oathbreaker as an option for a paladin who made a turn into opposite direction. Honestly, I see nothing wrong in, say, a Devotion Paladin becoming a Vengeance Paladin.

Similarly, any other classes could be allowed to swap a sub-class.

In any case, it shouldn't be made possible without a very good reason, but I wouldn't outright forbid it.

[EggKookoo]

In any case, it shouldn't be made possible without a very good reason, but I wouldn't outright forbid it.

Yes, good point. I probably would allow a subclass swap but I think it would prompt its own adventure to resolve.

[Tanarii]

It's kind of silly to lock someone into those kinds of choices for the entire career of their character.
Of course anyone choosing to play with the RAW is kinda silly.

[EggKookoo]

Of course anyone choosing to play with the RAW is kinda silly.

Sarc aside, there are definitely some silly things in the rules. For example, whenever I see some variation on "you can choose after the roll is made but before the results are determined" I feel by brain flip inside out.

[JNAProductions]

Sarc aside, there are definitely some silly things in the rules. For example, whenever I see some variation on "you can choose after the roll is made but before the results are determined" I feel by brain flip inside out.

Why? Let's take Bardic Inspiration.

You get it round one, and hit with a 14 on your first attack, but miss with an 11 on your second. You now know that the monster is hit on no greater than 14 and no less than 12.

Next round, you roll an attack, and get an 11 again-you KNOW that's a miss BEFORE the DM tells you, but you also know it's close, so now's a good time to roll Bardic Inspiration. Whereas if you roll a 2, not so much.

[EggKookoo]

Why? Let's take Bardic Inspiration.

You get it round one, and hit with a 14 on your first attack, but miss with an 11 on your second. You now know that the monster is hit on no greater than 14 and no less than 12.

Next round, you roll an attack, and get an 11 again-you KNOW that's a miss BEFORE the DM tells you, but you also know it's close, so now's a good time to roll Bardic Inspiration. Whereas if you roll a 2, not so much.

I just mean the wording itself. We'll use Combat Inspiration as an example but the wording is used for a number of features.

"Also at 3rd level, you learn to inspire others in battle. A creature that has a Bardic Inspiration die from you can roll that die and add the number rolled to a weapon damage roll it just made. Alternatively, when an attack roll is made against the creature, it can use its reaction to roll the Bardic Inspiration die and add the number rolled to its AC against that attack, after seeing the roll but before knowing whether it hits or misses."

I don't do this at my table for two reasons. One, it's largely futile. My players are very quick on the ball when it comes to working out attack bonuses and ACs of the creatures they fight. I roll openly so they see the numbers. They know their own ACs, of course, so the learn the modifiers to within 1-2 points after a few attacks, and bounded accuracy keeps the possibilities constrained anyway. Two, I'm not a fan of mechanics-based gotchas. I know some are required for balance (wasted spells costing spell slots, for example) but I don't think it's terribly fun to spend a Bardic Inspiration die blindly, especially if it turns out I didn't need to. So I try not to do that to my players. There's enough ambiguity in the game.

[Tanarii]

Sarc aside, there are definitely some silly things in the rules. For example, whenever I see some variation on "you can choose after the roll is made but before the results are determined" I feel by brain flip inside out.
Your apparent personal issues aside, there's nothing silly about that. It's purposely designed so that the player can make a decision based on seeing the roll, but so that the DM doesn't have to reveal the bonuses or target number (as the case may be). That gives them a chance to make an informed choice without providing any more metagame information than necessary. The roll is impermanent metagame info that is gone after the situation. TNs and bonuses are (usually) not.

[EggKookoo]

Your apparent personal issues aside, there's nothing silly about that. It's purposely designed so that the player can make a decision based on seeing the roll, but so that the DM doesn't have to reveal the bonuses or target number (as the case may be). That gives them a chance to make an informed choice without providing any more metagame information than necessary. The roll is impermanent metagame info that is gone after the situation. TNs and bonuses are (usually) not.

I explained in my previous post what the issues is. I don't want to derail the thread.

[Willie the Duck]

Cantrips are not minor spells, they are simple spells, but powerful nontheless. There's a difference. The rules text specifically mentions that, as I quoted above.
However, it's true that cantrips are mentioned separately for each class that gets them. But that doesn't change the fact they are still 0-level spells.

In other words, cantrips are spells, and treated as such, except when they are not, or simply kept separate (such as when a class has spells known and then cantrips known). What they really needed was a nice shorthand for 'non-cantrip spells' so that the book would read more clearly*.
*Or not, depending on where one stands on 'rule books should be written without ambiguity of linguistic loopholes.'


Sarc aside, there are definitely some silly things in the rules.

Really, that could be a thread-ending statement we could use with just about any subject in these forums. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

I explained in my previous post what the issues is. I don't want to derail the thread.

I just want to say that you're actually doing what the rules tell you to, with how you describe it. "Before results are determined" is really saying "before the DM declares an outcome." If the player happens to knwo that that d20 result is definitely bad for him, he's supposed to be able to act on that. The results aren't "determined" because the DM hasn't proclaimed them, yet.

As for swapping out Cantrips, they are spells. I'd have to look at the precise wording, but I think it actually isn't a violation of the RAW to permit it at level-up.

[EggKookoo]

I just want to say that you're actually doing what the rules tell you to, with how you describe it. "Before results are determined" is really saying "before the DM declares an outcome." If the player happens to knwo that that d20 result is definitely bad for him, he's supposed to be able to act on that. The results aren't "determined" because the DM hasn't proclaimed them, yet.

So maybe I'm misunderstanding what it means. I interpret RAW as:

DM: The orc attacks you [rolls, comes up with a 12 on the die, adds the orc's mod to it] and...
DM waits for player to jump in with his insp die
Player: I roll my insp die [rolls, comes up with 4]
DM: [adds insp die result to player AC, compares with orc's modified attack roll] ...misses.

I play it as:

DM: The orc attacks you [rolls, comes up with a 12 on the die, adds the orc's mod to it, compares to player's AC] and hits.
Player: Ok, I roll my insp die [rolls, comes up with 4]
DM: Ok, nope, the orc missed.

While the second approach has the drawback of revising the events, from a cognitive standpoint it's a lot smoother, and it also doesn't have the built in pause where the DM has to wait for it to occur to the player to use his inspiration die. A pause which is basically a trigger for the player to do that if he has it available anyway.

I get that the intent is for the player to not be 100% certain he needs to use the insp die, but in practice he's almost always certain he would or wouldn't. Maybe about 15% of the time he might not be confident. But the tradeoff is faster gameplay, both literally in actual time spent and in terms of juggling what's going on mentally.

I can't find it now but even Crawford said he regretted that particular mechanic-ism and would remove it if he could.


As for swapping out Cantrips, they are spells. I'd have to look at the precise wording, but I think it actually isn't a violation of the RAW to permit it at level-up.

In most cases the PHB says you can choose one spell to swap out. For example in the Sorc description:

"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

Edit: Whoops, sorry, that's not what you were talking about at all... :smalleek:

[Segev]

So maybe I'm misunderstanding what it means. I interpret RAW as:

DM: The orc attacks you [rolls, comes up with a 12 on the die, adds the orc's mod to it] and...
DM waits for player to jump in with his insp die
Player: I roll my insp die [rolls, comes up with 4]
DM: [adds insp die result to player AC, compares with orc's modified attack roll] ...misses.

I play it as:

DM: The orc attacks you [rolls, comes up with a 12 on the die, adds the orc's mod to it, compares to player's AC] and hits.
Player: Ok, I roll my insp die [rolls, comes up with 4]
DM: Ok, nope, the orc missed.

While the second approach has the drawback of revising the events, from a cognitive standpoint it's a lot smoother, and it also doesn't have the built in pause where the DM has to wait for it to occur to the player to use his inspiration die. A pause which is basically a trigger for the player to do that if he has it available anyway.

I get that the intent is for the player to not be 100% certain he needs to use the insp die, but in practice he's almost always certain he would or wouldn't. Maybe about 15% of the time he might not be confident. But the tradeoff is faster gameplay, both literally in actual time spent and in terms of juggling what's going on mentally.

I can't find it now but even Crawford said he regretted that particular mechanic-ism and would remove it if he could.In practice, players almost always do know if it's going to hit or miss before they use the die. I suppose the DM should hold off as in your first example, but what he really means - what you really mean, by your description here - when you say "and hits" is "and will hit if you don't do something about it." The result is therefore not determined, by implication, until the player chooses to accept it or to try to do something to change it.

I do get what you're saying, but I'm just saying that the way you handle it isn't really violating the RAW, and certainly not the RAI. The intent may be to make the player decide before he's sure, but...in all practicality, he's sure enough once he knows the die roll.




In most cases the PHB says you can choose one spell to swap out. For example in the Sorc description:

"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

Edit: Whoops, sorry, that's not what you were talking about at all... :smalleek:Heh, well, to be fair, I have to be careful allowing for this, because it could, by interpretation of "Cantrips are spells," mean a Sorcerer could swap out a higher-level spell for a Cantrip. Or...maybe not. He could replace Cantrips with higher-level spells, but he has no spell slots for Cantrips, so couldn't actually get a Cantrip back out of this exchange.

Per the RAW, anyway. I see no reason not to allow using this feature to swap CAntrips instead of higher level spells, though I'd be personally leery of allowing Cantrip-for-higher-level-spell (which is technically within the RAW) or the reverse (which is not).

[EggKookoo]

Heh, well, to be fair, I have to be careful allowing for this, because it could, by interpretation of "Cantrips are spells," mean a Sorcerer could swap out a higher-level spell for a Cantrip. Or...maybe not. He could replace Cantrips with higher-level spells, but he has no spell slots for Cantrips, so couldn't actually get a Cantrip back out of this exchange.

Per the RAW, anyway. I see no reason not to allow using this feature to swap CAntrips instead of higher level spells, though I'd be personally leery of allowing Cantrip-for-higher-level-spell (which is technically within the RAW) or the reverse (which is not).

I would think the character is still bound by the total number of cantrips known, right? So even if you could somehow swap a cantrip for a proper spell, you'd have to be sure not to violate that limit. So it's kind of self-correcting?

I don't think the OP is asking about swapping cantrips for spells, just swapping out like for like.

[SirGraystone]

Sarc aside, there are definitely some silly things in the rules. For example, whenever I see some variation on "you can choose after the roll is made but before the results are determined" I feel by brain flip inside out.

For example I rolls for attacks and get 15 then I can choose to use an ability before knowing if 15 hit or miss.