Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-18, 02:29 PM
Split from "It's over level 30!!!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57161), in which Fax and I bicker about Master Spellthief. As Fax is very visible in the community, I expect his thoughts are widespread and that this accordingly involves more than just the two of us. Time to get everyone up to speed.
The Issue: What classes advance the use of the Spellthief's (CAdv) Steal Spell ability when it is combined with the Master Spellthief (CSco) feat?
Fax's Idea: Classes like the Wizard and Duskblade, as well as PrCs that advance the spellcasting of said classes.
Merlin's Idea: Only classes with printed progressions, such as the Wizard and Duskblade.
Spellthief 1/Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Ur-Priest 3/Mystic Theurge 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10.
Use Mystic Theurge, Abjurant Champion, and Knight Phantom to increase Wizard spellcasting. You'll end up with the ability to cast 9th level divine spells and 9th level arcane spells, with the added benefit of being able to cast any of them in light armor with no ASF. Further, you can steal spells from slots above 9th (up to 18th level slots, actually), channel any spell you know into a full-attack (including those you steal and your divine spells), and have epic casting, with your Wizard caster level of 23--actually, of 27, considering AbCham's fifth level ability sets your caster level equal to your BAB.
Required feats: Master Spellthief stacks your Steal Spell ability with your arcane caster levels--of which you have 36. Prerequisite feats. Other than that, have fun.Point One:There is a fundamental difference between caster level and levels in a spellcasting class. We can agree on this. An ioun stone of the proper color will boost the former but not the latter. I'd be willing to bet we all agree on this.
Point Two: The text of the Master Spellthief (below) refers to stacking the levels of arcane spellcasting class (aside from the Spellthief) with Spellthief levels for the purposes of Steal Spell. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.
Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.Point Three: The text of the Archmage's Spells Per Day/Spells Known (below) refers to advancing the level of spells per day or spells known of an arcane spellcasting class. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level.Point Four: PrCs that advance spellcasting (such as the Eldritch Knight, Archmage, or Knight Phantom) cannot apply their Spells per Day/Spells Known to other classes that provide the same benefit, as this would lead to situations such as the Archmage advancing Mystic Theurge casting, which we know to not be permitted. Because that would be silly.
Conclusion One: Based on Points 3 and 4, even though classes such as the Archmage involve, are themed around the use of, and advance arcane spellcasting, they are not "arcane spellcasting classes" by the rules. "Arcane Spellcasting Classes" include base classes such as the Wizard or Sorcerer, as well as prestige classes such as the Sublime Chord and Suel Arcanamach, which have written progressions for their spellcasting abilities.
Conclusion Two: As Points 2 and 3 use the same language ("arcane spellcasting classes"), Conclusion One applies to Master Spellthief as well. Ergo, classes that provide advancements to existing spellcasting do not advance Master Spellthief.
Conclusion Three: As a result of Conclusion Two, the only classes in your example build that affect Master Spellthief are Spellthief, Duskblade, and Wizard, for a final effective level of 15, allowing the character to steal spells of up to 7th level.
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If anyone can provide any evidence to the contrary, by all means bring it forward.
The Issue: What classes advance the use of the Spellthief's (CAdv) Steal Spell ability when it is combined with the Master Spellthief (CSco) feat?
Fax's Idea: Classes like the Wizard and Duskblade, as well as PrCs that advance the spellcasting of said classes.
Merlin's Idea: Only classes with printed progressions, such as the Wizard and Duskblade.
Spellthief 1/Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Ur-Priest 3/Mystic Theurge 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10.
Use Mystic Theurge, Abjurant Champion, and Knight Phantom to increase Wizard spellcasting. You'll end up with the ability to cast 9th level divine spells and 9th level arcane spells, with the added benefit of being able to cast any of them in light armor with no ASF. Further, you can steal spells from slots above 9th (up to 18th level slots, actually), channel any spell you know into a full-attack (including those you steal and your divine spells), and have epic casting, with your Wizard caster level of 23--actually, of 27, considering AbCham's fifth level ability sets your caster level equal to your BAB.
Required feats: Master Spellthief stacks your Steal Spell ability with your arcane caster levels--of which you have 36. Prerequisite feats. Other than that, have fun.Point One:There is a fundamental difference between caster level and levels in a spellcasting class. We can agree on this. An ioun stone of the proper color will boost the former but not the latter. I'd be willing to bet we all agree on this.
Point Two: The text of the Master Spellthief (below) refers to stacking the levels of arcane spellcasting class (aside from the Spellthief) with Spellthief levels for the purposes of Steal Spell. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.
Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.Point Three: The text of the Archmage's Spells Per Day/Spells Known (below) refers to advancing the level of spells per day or spells known of an arcane spellcasting class. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level.Point Four: PrCs that advance spellcasting (such as the Eldritch Knight, Archmage, or Knight Phantom) cannot apply their Spells per Day/Spells Known to other classes that provide the same benefit, as this would lead to situations such as the Archmage advancing Mystic Theurge casting, which we know to not be permitted. Because that would be silly.
Conclusion One: Based on Points 3 and 4, even though classes such as the Archmage involve, are themed around the use of, and advance arcane spellcasting, they are not "arcane spellcasting classes" by the rules. "Arcane Spellcasting Classes" include base classes such as the Wizard or Sorcerer, as well as prestige classes such as the Sublime Chord and Suel Arcanamach, which have written progressions for their spellcasting abilities.
Conclusion Two: As Points 2 and 3 use the same language ("arcane spellcasting classes"), Conclusion One applies to Master Spellthief as well. Ergo, classes that provide advancements to existing spellcasting do not advance Master Spellthief.
Conclusion Three: As a result of Conclusion Two, the only classes in your example build that affect Master Spellthief are Spellthief, Duskblade, and Wizard, for a final effective level of 15, allowing the character to steal spells of up to 7th level.
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If anyone can provide any evidence to the contrary, by all means bring it forward.