Shadow Magic Sorcerer vs. Warlock with Devil's Sight?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I just noticed the Shadow Sorcerer, yes I realize that the book has been out for a while however I thought discussing the benefits of it vs. a Warlock who chooses the Devil's Sight invocation and obviously took Darkness as his level 3 spell. I also recognize that Darkness can be very irritating for a party if they can't see through it.

Low Level

-Sorcerer Pro's: More Spells Known, More Spells per day, Better Spells, Meta Magic Options, Strength of the Grave.
-Sorcerer Con's: Spells on a long rest, No access to ritual casting, Dark Vision doesn't work through other people darkness spells.

Warlock Pro's: Eldritch Blast, Can gain Ritual Casting, Light Armor Proficiency, Possibly Shield Proficiency, More Weapon Proficiency possibly Martial, Open Sub-class choices, Short Rest Spells
Sorcerer Con's: Fewer spells per day, fewer spells known

6th level
Sorcerer Pro's: Hound of Ill Omen (Not sure if it is worth it...)
Warlock Pro's: A lot of variation anything between teleporting, to ghostly minions of the slain?

[Dalebert]

Devil's Sight hardly ever comes up unless you make it, i.e. you cast Darkness. Unwanted darkness is also super easy to deal with. Just carry something with Continual Flame cast at 3rd level (or higher if you want it hard to dispel).

My shadow sorcerer dipped 2 lvls lock but didn't take Devil's Sight. Seemed redundant.

[SociopathFriend]

Depends if you're in a campaign where vision/darkness spells are going to be prevalent. Running the Warlock becomes much more useful if you're likely to come across these circumstances often- such as in Underdark campaigns or anything featuring a lot of Drow battles.

[Aett_Thorn]

Devil's Sight hardly ever comes up unless you make it, i.e. you cast Darkness. Unwanted darkness is also super easy to deal with. Just carry something with Continual Flame cast at 3rd level (or higher if you want it hard to dispel).

My shadow sorcerer dipped 2 lvls lock but didn't take Devil's Sight. Seemed redundant.

To some extent, I agree with you. But a Warlock could be casting Darkness as a 5th level spell, meaning that you'd have to have enemies constantly carrying torches with a 6th level continual flame on them to avoid it. Just seems a bit too meta for the DM to always have something like that going on just to counter this trick.

However, despite all of its advantages, I do think it's a bit niche, and requires that the Warlock use one of their two spell slots to use it each battle, and it requires concentration, so you can't use it AND have Hex up, or any other decent concentration spell. So while it's great if you're just dipping to level 3 in Warlock, it's not all that great later in the campaign, especially if you've got better spells to hold concentration on.

[Dalebert]

But a Warlock could be casting Darkness as a 5th level spell, meaning that you'd have to have enemies constantly carrying torches with a 6th level continual flame on them to avoid it.

Nope.

1) Non-magical light can't illuminate it.
2) If it overlaps with light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, it dispels that spell.

There's no benefit from upcasting Darkness aside from it being harder to counter or dispel. Darkness only ever dispels light spells of 2nd level or lower so a 3rd level CF will always illuminate it. The only reason for a higher than 3rd level CF is so it's harder for someone to succeed with Dispel Magic against it.

[Matrix_Walker]

For what it is worth, Devils Sight lets you see through any darkness, natural or spell. The Shadow sorcerer can see through the darkness that he himself creates. Devils Sight is far far superior.

I don't see a differnence in 1 spell known to be much of a motivator.

[Unoriginal]

I think it's kinda hard to compare one specific subclass against a whole class and all its options. Is there any Warlock subclass that you like more than the other?

[Aett_Thorn]

Nope.

1) Non-magical light can't illuminate it.
2) If it overlaps with light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, it dispels that spell.

There's no benefit from upcasting Darkness aside from it being harder to counter or dispel. Darkness only ever dispels light spells of 2nd level or lower so a 3rd level CF will always illuminate it. The only reason for a higher than 3rd level CF is so it's harder for someone to succeed with Dispel Magic against it.

Yup, you're right. I was thinking that Darkness already in an area with CF torches brought in would still keep them in Darkness, but reading both spells I agree with your take.

[Dudewithknives]

Yup, you're right. I was thinking that Darkness already in an area with CF torches brought in would still keep them in Darkness, but reading both spells I agree with your take.

Also to note, “magical darkness” does not really cover very much. The spell darkness... and that is about it.

Speaking of which why do drow bother using it? They can’t see through it either.

Same with shadow monks, you can teleport through darkness to a place you can see, it can’t see through darkness.

[PeteNutButter]

Also to note, “magical darkness” does not really cover very much. The spell darkness... and that is about it.

Speaking of which why do drow bother using it? They can’t see through it either.

Same with shadow monks, you can teleport through darkness to a place you can see, it can’t see through darkness.

Lot's of people consider Hunger of Hadar magical darkness, but there is a debate on that.

The are loads of fiends that can cast darkness, making Devil's Sight a big advantage. Having played through all the published content in 5e, I can think of several areas of magical darkness that are permanently built into dungeons and what not, where Devil's Sight trivializes the issue.

[Dalebert]

Shadow sorcerers seem really good to me overall. I didn't take Devil's Sight because it just felt redundant. I'm personally not a fan of going full warlock. A warlock dip is fine. I've never been a fan of a tiny number of slots that come back on a short rest. I'm rarely in games where short rests happen much.

[jiriku]

Devil's Sight is significantly superior, but neither is so useful that it should shape your class choice. But if you really must, warlock is better.

Seeing in magical darkness is a nice trick, but in many environments, the enemy will just move out of the darkness at the first opportunity and never move back in. And in many of the environments that are too cramped for the enemy to move away, the darkness would significantly hinder the rest of your party so you won't be casting it. What this means for you is that your best tactic is often standing in your own darkness and shooting out of it using ranged weapons or (more likely) spells that require attack rolls. Warlock has an edge here, with agonizing eldritch blast. Sorcerers are either using crappy cantrips or burning through spell slots if they attempt this trick.

[Dalebert]

...the enemy will just move out of the darkness at the first opportunity and never move back in.

You seem to be assuming the Darkness was cast on a point in space but it usually makes more sense to cast it on something the warlock is carrying. My shadow monk / warlock typically did that. If the enemy runs out, I just take my opportunity attack and then follow them bringing the darkness with me next turn. More often though, I would move in, attack, and move away so the darkness isn't hindering my party and because he's not a tank.

[Keravath]

Devils sight also avoids the disadvantage on perception checks that applies when using dark vision to see in the dark.

On the other hand, devils sight does nothing in dim light. So if you want to see perfectly within 120’ in all lighting conditions .. a shadow sorcer with devils sight works well.

As for the use that f darkness+devils sight in a party .. most seem to overestimate the inconvenience and problems for other party members. If you choose when to use the tactic it can work very well especially with a group.

1) ranged rogue casting darkness with devils sight allows the rogue to use sneak attack all the time with advantage.
2) darkness+devils sight in melee works very well with a PAM+GWM build. Using a pole arm with a 10’ reach means the character doesn’t need to close all the way to the target and makes it easier to step back making the target visible to the rest of the party.
3) darkness shuts down attacks requiring sight .. spells that require seeing the target to cast, basilisk gaze attacks, vampire charm .. many of these require both creatures to see each other to be effective .. in which case darkness+ devils sight helps the party protecting against attacks and allowing the warlock to attack with advantage.

Finally, the biggest impact is preventing team mates from casting spells requiring the caster to see the target. Ranged attacks,melee attacks, ranged spell attacks are all affected by the visibility rules in which not seeing your target causes disadvantage while the target not seeing you causes advantage .. so all these attacks are straight rolls unaffected by the darkness.

The darkness does negatively affect melee barbarians who might want to use reckless attack .. on the other hand it protects them from banish or dominate person.

So used well, darkness is far more of an advantage than a hindrance to the rest of the party.