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View Full Version : Could this pass for a level 4 spell?



Malapterus
2018-10-28, 11:22 AM
Spell: Demand the Dead (Necromancy) Sor/Wiz 4

This spell, too unholy even for evil clerics, is an odd ritual that produces a grand ability to get information from a corpse.

Casting Time: Varies
Range: Touch
Target: The corpse of any no-longer-living creature
Duration: 1 minute per level, then permanent
Save: Will (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

A touched dead creature is brought back to a horrible mockery of life. This spell animates the corpse enough that the owner's very soul is temporarily drawn back into it. The soul gets a Will Save, but unless it somehow knew this spell was being cast, the save is at -4.

The animated corpse becomes Undead, but cannot move or do anything but speak when spoken to. At this stage, its physical stats are unchanged and it gains no bonus hit points in exchange for the loss of its Constitution score, though it does not have the hit points it gained from said score in life.

For one minute per level, the new undead cannot or move or make any actions of its own will. When spoken to by the caster of the spell, and anyone the caster perceived as an ally at the casting of the spell, it must answer honestly to the best of its knowledge and its understanding of the meaning of the question. It cannot mince words, give half-truths, or give answers based on the literal wording.

Additionally, the undead can be given new information and process it like any existing knowledge it had. When the initial duration expires, however, the soul will remember the encounter and anything it learned there, including any information it gained on who was there.

Generally, you can ask or explain two things per minute, though the DM may rule that excessively long questions or explanations OR excessively long answers to questions may take more time.

Once the initial duration ends, the creature becomes a will-less undead. It does not count against the caster's number of undead controlled, nor is it under the control of the caster in any way. Its only actions will be to attack anything that comes near it, and then return to its resting place if it moved. if it moved very far, it may choose a new, closer resting place or even simply stop where it is and designate its current square as its resting place. The undead will not speak or communicate in any way, nor will it make any warning of its attack or even engage in self-preservation if it is being defeated. It attacks until it is destroyed or there is nothing to attack.
Please note that it will not necessarily follow a target relentlessly and will forget about it if said creature goes out of sight for three rounds or if the target escapes through a path that would be a lot of trouble for the creature to follow.

The creature retains all abilities (except constitution), class levels, skills, feats, spells, and other abilities it had in life, though it may only use them towards its two motivations in unlife. It gains extra hit points based on its size as an undead. Its mental scores are not affected, only its free will, so it may still cast spells if it was a spellcaster. Indeed, prepared casters become spontaneous casters, making them exceptionally dangerous.

The creature gains Darkvision 60 feet if it is Large or smaller, otherwise it gains Darkvision 120 feet. If it had better Darkvision, it keeps that.
The creature loses the ability to Run, if it had it.
It gets +1 Strength for every 2 HD it has and +1 Natural Armor for every 4 HD it has. Its Base Attack Bonus is changed to 3/4 HD unless it had better to begin with. It gains Spell Resistance equal to twice the caster level of the caster who created it, and DR/Bludgeoning equal to half the caster's level.

For one day per caster level, the creature will not attack the caster who created it nor any perceived allies of the caster. From that point on, any creature it perceives, from a Gold Great Wyrm to a moth, will be attacked.

Casting time:
One minute per HD of the target creature.

Spell Component:
One polished opal worth 500 GP for each HD of the target creature.

----

So, at 20th level you can use this spell to get 20 minutes of chat with a creature before it turns into an undead monstrosity you have no control over. There's no HD limit on it, but the spell component is costly for what you get.

I'm intending to use it as a spell for NPCs in my campaign who have to get some very specific information from some very dead people.

Zaq
2018-10-28, 01:14 PM
This seems overly complex, to be honest. Speak With Dead followed by Animate Dead (which you then release from your control pool somehow) will do most of the job here with way less in the way of moving parts. If you really want a vigorous conversation with an enemy, hit them with a charm or a compulsion before you kill them. Or just use a different divination effect (regular Speak With Dead plus Legend Lore to figure out details about what they were referring to, for instance) to learn what they knew.

I can maybe see justifying researching a higher-level version of Speak With Dead that lets you wrench a bit more info out of a corpse (but not that much more, honestly), but you seem to be very inclined towards packing everything that goes along with some specific scene in your head into a single game element. That means that the game elements that you’re creating are not going to translate well to other scenarios, and you’re likely to end up with an overcomplicated mess.

Ask yourself what problem you’re solving. Ask yourself why you can’t use an existing game element or a combination of existing game elements to achieve your results. If you’re inventing some entirely new ability, try to determine how to keep your additions simple and how to ensure that they don’t break anything when considered outside the context of the character or story you built them for.

Also, remember that NPCs don’t have to follow 100% of the rules that PCs do. If the adventure calls for the cultist to have a bound demon guarding the door to the ritual chamber, do you roll the binding check and then just not have the demon be there if the cultist failed it? Of course not. You just put a bound demon there. If you want to make sure that the cultist has access to Planar Binding, that’s great, but you don’t have to treat it 100% exactly the same as if a PC were the one doing it. It’s sometimes laudable to stick to consistent rules, but if you’re trying to give an NPC some specific effect, you don’t have to create this kind of overloaded and overcomplicated spell to do it.

Malapterus
2018-10-28, 02:43 PM
The point of the story is that my heroes are collecting secrets that are being passed down lines of monarchy.

An evil counter-party is also looking for the secret, and monarchs tend to have tombs, so they can get the information out of a prior monarch - but they'd really have to know exactly what to ask, so they need a better spell to wheedle it out of them.

On top of that, one of the dead monarchs is a massive Formorian queen and another is an ancient Myconid who grew to massive size and crawled under the city before passing on to whatever counts as 'dead' for a mushroom.

With this spell, they can sneak into the tomb and get the secret without alerting the current monarchy that they've been there, and leave behind a pretty horrific monster for whomever goes snooping around after them.

Unfortunately, the highest spell the wizard of the part will be able to pull off at the time is a level 4.

ezekielraiden
2018-10-28, 02:46 PM
Given:
(A) regular Speak with Dead is a 3rd level spell, Cleric-only in the SRD, and is less effective than the first half of this one, that portion alone would be a 5th level spell to my reading,
and
(B) regular animate dead is a 4th level spell for Wiz/Sorc, and this clearly has more effects than that,

I would call this a 6th level spell (combo = +1, cross-class = +1, extra power = +1). If it really were just "Speak with Dead followed by Animate Dead," then it could be just 5th level (getting two spells for the price of one).

Narratively, I'd probably tie it to a sect of Necromancers specializing in undead as servants so the living have an easier time of things.

Zaq
2018-10-28, 03:04 PM
The point of the story is that my heroes are collecting secrets that are being passed down lines of monarchy.

An evil counter-party is also looking for the secret, and monarchs tend to have tombs, so they can get the information out of a prior monarch - but they'd really have to know exactly what to ask, so they need a better spell to wheedle it out of them.

On top of that, one of the dead monarchs is a massive Formorian queen and another is an ancient Myconid who grew to massive size and crawled under the city before passing on to whatever counts as 'dead' for a mushroom.

With this spell, they can sneak into the tomb and get the secret without alerting the current monarchy that they've been there, and leave behind a pretty horrific monster for whomever goes snooping around after them.

Unfortunately, the highest spell the wizard of the part will be able to pull off at the time is a level 4.

So what I'm hearing is that you've already decided what spell level a specific NPC has access to, you've already decided what effects you want them to perform, and you want to reconcile that somehow?

With respect, I think that this is a bad way to do that.

What you're describing, as mentioned by ezekielraiden, is not a 4th level spell. So I think you need to examine one or more of your assumptions here. Maybe you need the NPC in question to have more powerful magic, or maybe it's not appropriate for them to be able to perform this specific thing that you have in mind in exactly the way that you have in mind. Or else you need to give them some kind of GM fudge factor that lets them drive the plot forward, but that doesn't mean that it's appropriate to write this up as a 4th level spell.

I think checking the background assumptions is the best option, though. Why is this the only way that the antagonists could have proceeded?

Caylin
2018-10-28, 05:03 PM
Turn it around. If the players get the enemies spellbook would you be ok with the party wizard using this spell as lvl 4? Talking to the dead is usually a cleric domain and a tricky proposition at best. Also look at the abusability: Someone has a secret you want to know. The easiest way (for someone evil) is now to simply kill them and use this spell.

Imho The effect of just the powerful speak with dead portion is too much for even a lvl 4 cleric spell.

Mike Miller
2018-10-28, 06:29 PM
I am almost always of the opinion that you can find a way to make it work within the bounds of what already exists. In other words, you don't need homebrew. Why not find existing spells that do what you want? Some have already been noted above. It is a time saver and doesn't complicate things.

Malapterus
2018-10-28, 07:44 PM
Yeah, I was trying to figure out whether or not this should be in my Wizard's spellbook. The party I have coming up probably wouldn't use it but it would be nice for them to see what was happening with such detail.

The antagonists have many roads they could take, but prying the secret from an entombed monarch, again, really lets them get in and out with no one finding out they were there for a long time & it being quite hard to figure out why they were there once it was found out.

The reason I wanted it to be all one effect is that there's not a good reason for them to leave the horrible undead monstrosity behind so it would be part of the spell. The reasoning behind it being part of the same effect is that they really need to get that corporeal form juiced up to let the soul inhabit it in a way that allows for the communication they want, so the animation is sort of a side-effect.

A Wizard writing her own spells in the effort to tamper in the domain of the Gods really should have some weird effects and if their boss had given them anything that was not explicitly for this purpose, like a Ring of Three Wishes, they would find a 'better' use for it. Chaotic parties need boundaries.

I cannot figure out what class the leader of this party should be but he is chaotic and all his party members are chaotic evil or chaotic neutral and so it's going to be a hell of a time for him, I'm sure!

Selion
2018-10-29, 01:39 AM
First of all, you are the master, you can bend the rules whatever you like, just be aware your players could be a little confused if this happens too much often. Two options :
1) the evil party has a 5th level cleric. He casts speak with dead and the wizard animates the corpse with the order to go back to its grave.
2) the spell works as you ruled, but it is a ritual requiring special conditions (a sacrifice, full moon, a part of a body , whatever you like) and both a divine and an arcane spellcasters.

CasualViking
2018-10-29, 07:37 AM
It seems like a very cheap way to get some undead guardians for a site you won't visit often.

tomandtish
2018-10-29, 01:23 PM
When analyzing how powerful this spell is, don't forget the soul part. After all, even Resurrection can fail if the soul is 1) not willing or 2) not free to return. And based on what I read of your spell, while the being wants to return to their resting place, I see nothing that says the soul is ever set free.

If Demon Lord X has gotten possession of the soul, are you still forcing it back in if that lord doesn't want to let it go? Will good gods allow the soul to be ripped from their realm against its will?

So you've combined two 3rd level spells (Speak with Dead, Animate Dead), AND an 8th level spell (Trap the Soul) in one spell? Heck, I'd call this 9th level.

Malapterus
2018-10-29, 11:29 PM
When analyzing how powerful this spell is, don't forget the soul part. After all, even Resurrection can fail if the soul is 1) not willing or 2) not free to return. And based on what I read of your spell, while the being wants to return to their resting place, I see nothing that says the soul is ever set free.

If Demon Lord X has gotten possession of the soul, are you still forcing it back in if that lord doesn't want to let it go? Will good gods allow the soul to be ripped from their realm against its will?

So you've combined two 3rd level spells (Speak with Dead, Animate Dead), AND an 8th level spell (Trap the Soul) in one spell? Heck, I'd call this 9th level.

Whupp. The soul is set free after the initial minute-per-level duration. Thanks for pointing that out!

I found a Feat in Complete Mage that lets you create an undead and control it temporarily without it counting against your HD, so creating a creature you lose control of is only feat-level modification.

Maybe I could calm down some and just say after the initial duration it becomes an aggressive homebody zombie or skeleton. That would take some of the piss out of it, but it would still be a gargantuan/colossal zombie (in the case of my storyline).

Maybe I could really cut the duration of the non-hostility, even make it random. Like, 2d10 minutes after the sentient period the thing gets up and gets angry, and the DM is the one making the roll. Risky business!