PF - How to Put Shadows Into Magical Cold Storage?

[unseenmage]

When do conjured shadow creatures act?
And can they cast summon spells of their own?
Answered.

Am using the Book of Night Without Moon (http://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Book%20of%20Ni ght%20without%20Moon) and this is for a real game for what that's worth.

At the time we ruled that it acted immediately, could summon, and was conjured with at least clothes.
Was a shadow of an unknown 11 HD wizard that came with the book.


EDIT
New question, is there a way to store freed shadows in magical cold storage somehow?

Do magical effects still count down when the creature they're on (or that they are) is in 'suspended animation', temporal stasis, or transformed into an entirely new thing via Scribe's Binding or Polymorph Any Object?

[Florian]

Irks, that thing.... (Please, it´a plot device for a module, it´s not there for actual playing around with).
So, no, no real answer possible, unless you ask the initial author.

Releasing a shadow is a standard action that works like using Shadow Conjuration - but isn't a copy of a Summon Monster spell. Rather, it acts like you would apply a "shadow conjuration quick template" on the original creature that shadow was stolen from. So basically, it can act immediately and possibly also summon and shadow conjure on it´s own, which would then be very very lousy effects because you'd have to apply the modifier twice, first for the shadow itself, then from the shadow conjuration it cast.... so 20% of 20% real?

[CasualViking]

It acts immediately and can cast spells.

It can't use any innate summoning abilities it might have, and every spell it casts terminates when it leaves (because it's a Conjuration [summoning] effect).

[unseenmage]

It acts immediately and can cast spells.

It can't use any innate summoning abilities it might have, and every spell it casts terminates when it leaves (because it's a Conjuration [summoning] effect).

I am not seeing where if has the [summoning] tag, could you please elaborate?

[Florian]

I am not seeing where if has the [summoning] tag, could you please elaborate?

My guess is that Viking answered your thread title, but didn't check on the actual item. The crux with any shadow-type spell is that it will follow two sets of rules, first, the one concerning the shadow spell and illusions, second, the rules for the spell it mimics. Insofar, it is correct that a Shadow Conjuration of, say, Summon Monster III is a standard action and the shadow duplicate still follows all the rules of SMIII, but this doesn't apply here.

[unseenmage]

Even without the item the spell itself can still make copies of creatures all on it's own so the question still comes up.

We ruled the way we did at the time because of the move action (at least) to retrieve the book then the standard to release a shadow winds up effectively costing you your turn so we just let the creature act since it's no more powerful than summon monster at that point.

[Psyren]

Irks, that thing.... (Please, it´a plot device for a module, it´s not there for actual playing around with).
So, no, no real answer possible, unless you ask the initial author.

Yeah, as Florian said that book reeks of plot device, and it's very vague on what exactly the "illusory duplicate" can do, especially one that lacks memories or speech. Certainly you can't (or at least shouldn't) try to extrapolate from that item to give Shadow Conjuration any ability to duplicate specific people of its own. Just because the book is crafted with that spell and even references it during one of its effects, doesn't mean the spell on its own can do any of that.

[unseenmage]

In the very first paragraph that Shadow Conjuration can copy creatures is listed separately from that it can copy spells.

The third paragraph tells you about copied creatures.

I am literally not seeing the issue here.


As to the answer to my initial question, the new creature is just added to the initiative order just like any other new combatant would be.
I was expecting some spell based precedent but lacking that am pretty sure the initiative rules are what we default to.


In other news. I did run across this rather in depth discussion (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kgb8?Shadow-Evocation-and-Darkness) of Shadow Conjuration on the Paizo boards.

[Psyren]

I am literally not seeing the issue here.

Neither am I. The second sentence of the spell tells you exactly how it works.

I doubt we're going to agree.

[unseenmage]

Neither am I. The second sentence of the spell tells you exactly how it works.

I doubt we're going to agree.

And the reason the first sentence doesnt also tell you exactly how it works could be?

[zergling.exe]

And the reason the first sentence doesnt also tell you exactly how it works could be?

The first sentence tells you what it does; create a quasi-real illusory creature, object or force. The second sentence tells you how it does that; by mimicking a sorc/wiz spell of the appropriate level.

[Florian]

Even without the item the spell itself can still make copies of creatures all on it's own so the question still comes up.

We ruled the way we did at the time because of the move action (at least) to retrieve the book then the standard to release a shadow winds up effectively costing you your turn so we just let the creature act since it's no more powerful than summon monster at that point.

Don´t confuse the item with the spell. The item does not even use shadow conjuration, it only explains that it functions similar to shadow conjuration (a spell that is not especially noted for being able to capture shadows of unnamed 10th level wizards an such).

And no, shadow conjuration can only copy other, very specific spells, like the Summon Monster family of spells. This generally don't allow to copy generic 10th level wizards for summoning purposes.

[ezekielraiden]

And the reason the first sentence doesnt also tell you exactly how it works could be?

It does tell you something, just in narrative terms. The following sentence clarifies the narrative terms of the first sentence with precise mechanical meaning.

It really is worth noting that other than that first sentence, nothing in the spell really supports what you're speaking of, and I don't mean that in a logical way. I mean it in the "provides mechanics for" way. What limits are there on hit dice, for example? Surely there would have to be some, since there's a greater version (and shades at 9th level)--but the text is totally silent on that. Surely, at some point in the text, a reference to generating creatures directly rather than by mimicking a summoning spell would appear. Or the more powerful versions would specify the ways in which they extend the power of the baseline spell. But they don't. It's literally one, entirely mechanics-free sentence, which you're reading as establishing a (quite potent) effect.

Absence of evidence is not, by itself, evidence of absence. But when an interpretation of the text leaves gaping rules holes that require major DM intervention in order to even make sense in the first place, surely we can assert that it's reasonable to question the interpretation that imposes this requirement. Especially when a different, and importantly more restrained, interpretation totally removes any such difficulty and introduces no new problems along the way.

If we instead assume that, "You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces" simply is the long-form, narrative description of "you can shape shadows to mimic spell effects," all these difficulties evaporate. The spell ceases to be (almost ludicrously) open-ended and instead has a clear, very useful but delimited effect: mimicking Conjuration spells of level 3 or lower (as the greater form is 6 or lower, and shades is 8th or lower.)

I think it's just untenable to conclude that the first sentence establishes the ability to spontaneously generate shadow creatures. You can mimic a spell that would summon something, but not just shape shadow into whatever tickles your fancy.

[Rhedyn]

Shadow Conjuration mimics spells to mimic creatures. The mimic creature carries all the baggage of the spell, which means they can't summon.

They also act on your turn.

If you do not believe this and instead are using the spell to directly create creatures, then I have to ask how you are determining what creatures can be created and for how long?

NOTE: The spell Shades can "technically mimic" any conjuration spell because the wording changes. Which means a Called creature via mimicked planar binding could summon.

[Psyren]

And the reason the first sentence doesnt also tell you exactly how it works could be?

Because that format (brief narrative description followed by detailed mechanics) is how a lot of spells are written. Check Endure Elements for example. Or Hold Portal. Or Protection from Evil. Or Disguise Self. Or Detect Magic. Or Grease. Charm Person does both in the first sentence, but the mechanical part is in the parenthetical in the second half of said sentence. Not to come off facetious, but are you just now noticing that?

[unseenmage]

Guess I'm just used to adjudicating Simulacrum where every eety beety bit of text practically HAS to be mined for rules meaning just to find limits for the thing.

That and the comparable power levels of spells is not something I'm particularly skilled at parsing.

I play with a couple of genuine optimizes so doing broken or OP things and rolling with it narratively is our regular game a lot of the time.

If anything gets too out of hand (emptying a cave system of cthulhu monsters with control winds for example) we let it happen and gentleman's agreement that nonsense away later on.

I'll let shadow conjuration go for now as it seems I am literally the only person ever to read it that way (not being rude, Google was just pretty helpful in driving that home).

Perhaps I'll research a custom Shadow Creaturation spell later on or something.


For this character I get to play with the Book of Night Without Moon, and itll be fun and the GM will have to be more careful with his fiat created nonsense monsters. A win win as far as I'm concerned.

It's a fun toy, but I definitely need help wrapping my head around it from time to time.


Speaking of time, my next shenanigan is trying to store freed shadows in magical cold storage somehow.

IIRC Psyren's stance last time was that 'suspended animation' probably wouldn't stop spells from ending and that Scribe's Binding definitely wouldn't. I do not recall their stance on Temporal Stasis, however.

Here's the list of possible shadow storage methods if anyone cares to assist. Will change the OP to reflect the change of gears.


Ambergrim (http://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ambergrim)
Shadows only last an hour.
Takes an hour to preserve the shadow.
This one's a no go.

Elude Time (http://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Elude%20Time)
Based on Temporal Stasis.

Imprisonment (http://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Imprisonment)
Temporal Stasis based again.

Polymorph Any Object (http://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Polymorph%20Any%20Objec t)

Scribe's Binding (http://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Scribe%27s%20Binding)

Sepia Snake Sigil (http://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sepia%20Snake%20Sigil)

Sequester (http://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sequester)

Temporal Stasis (http://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Temporal%20Stasis)