Making a brawler, input needed

[DarkEternal]

So, after an eternity of DM-ing, finally gonna play in the player role. For a long time the idea of a brawler has been going on in my head. Something as a tribute to Ben Grimm of the F4, something simple, and yet fun to play as.

And I kind of liked the brawler from what I read. So, basically here to spin some ideas on how to build him. Things that I have more or less decided - it's gonna be a half giant from the...Psionics book or something? I don't intend to do anything with it's psionic abilities, so maybe I'll change that down the line.

Aside from that, I was considering an archetype, though most of them exchange martial flexibility for something else, which really seems like it's defeating the entire point of the class, and that is versatility of some sort. I don't expect him to be an erudite, so most of the time he's probably going to punch stuff in the face (or participate in variations of violence)

I was considering the Winding path renegade archetype for some monk goodies, even if it does have the steep price of losing bonus feats, but I am still up in the air for that. The Living avalanche one seems also okay, since it retains flexibility and changes some really crappy abilities into...well, less crap ones. The third party one, the tavern brawler also seems playable.

So, obviously going to focus on strength, with con being a secondary stat. I also played around with the idea of making him a tough to kill kind of guy (with feats like endurance, die hard and the like, but that seems like something I'd have to have a lot of feats to make it work).

So, basically, here to discuss what roads to take into building a character. Starting at level 1. I was thinking with Power attack for first level feat, though Dirty fighting also seems good to take since it will enable to you to qualify for a lot of stuff.

I have seen the wombo combo handbook, which I will use, since the martial flexibility stuff seems like I'll have to build some combos. I was thinking of trying a few for the style feats as well (pummeling style looks good).

[CasualViking]

Yeah, the diehard line is a trap.

[CasualViking]

Consider taking Combat Stamina, if allowed. In addition to being useful in itself, it allows you to ignore a lot of feat prerequisites as long as you have stamina points left.

[Geddy2112]

If you are going to be The Thing, mutagenic mauler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/mutagenic-mauler) is the archetype for you. It is one of the best mechanically to replace martial flexibility, and makes the character much more plug and play then scouring the feat trees every time you want new feats.

I will agree diehard line is a trap UNLESS you are playing a half orc, and can access the deathless tree with free endurance at level 1. Even then, this is kind of a niche for really tanky builds who soak damage like a sponge.

Pummeling style is arguably one of the best styles in the game- clustered shots for melee, free tripping and pounce is pretty incredible. Jabbing style is also good for raw damage throwing. Snake and crane are good styles if you want to focus more on defense instead of offense.

You certainly want dirty fighting over combat expertise(unless you are specifically trying to juice your AC) as it comes up more and gives you better ability to martial flexibility yourself as a grapple/trip/whatever build. After that, it depends on if you have expertise or not as far as feats go; you want a style feat, probably improved initiative, but then the sky is the limit.

[DarkEternal]

If you are going to be The Thing, mutagenic mauler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/mutagenic-mauler) is the archetype for you. It is one of the best mechanically to replace martial flexibility, and makes the character much more plug and play then scouring the feat trees every time you want new feats.

I will agree diehard line is a trap UNLESS you are playing a half orc, and can access the deathless tree with free endurance at level 1. Even then, this is kind of a niche for really tanky builds who soak damage like a sponge.

Pummeling style is arguably one of the best styles in the game- clustered shots for melee, free tripping and pounce is pretty incredible. Jabbing style is also good for raw damage throwing. Snake and crane are good styles if you want to focus more on defense instead of offense.

You certainly want dirty fighting over combat expertise(unless you are specifically trying to juice your AC) as it comes up more and gives you better ability to martial flexibility yourself as a grapple/trip/whatever build. After that, it depends on if you have expertise or not as far as feats go; you want a style feat, probably improved initiative, but then the sky is the limit.

Alright, good suggestions. I was not too fond of the mutagenic brawler for the loss of flexibility but maybe I'll give it another look. As for the style feats. If you have martial flexbility, does that mean you can pretty much assume every stance if you have the prerequisites for it? Though ig I went Pummeling, I'd probably have to take it so I can go for a Pummeling charge later on.

Another question. Half giants have a Powerful build racial trait. Doesn't seem to do much in terms of damage output mechanics wise. I mean, I guess RAW you can't really use fists that are one size larger, but is that RAI as well? Seems to me like a half giant would have some pretty big mitts to swing around.

[Geddy2112]

Alright, good suggestions. I was not too fond of the mutagenic brawler for the loss of flexibility but maybe I'll give it another look. As for the style feats. If you have martial flexbility, does that mean you can pretty much assume every stance if you have the prerequisites for it? Though ig I went Pummeling, I'd probably have to take it so I can go for a Pummeling charge later on.

Another question. Half giants have a Powerful build racial trait. Doesn't seem to do much in terms of damage output mechanics wise. I mean, I guess RAW you can't really use fists that are one size larger, but is that RAI as well? Seems to me like a half giant would have some pretty big mitts to swing around.

Being able to tree feats is part of why martial flexibility is so good. So long as you meet prerequisites, you can gain a feat, then the next, then the next, and so on so long as you are significantly high enough level. At 10th level, you could gain the whole pummeling tree if you had the prereq's, but you really only need charge and style. The key is to have the skill ranks needed for feats as well as a few base tree feats hardwired into your class through advancement and bonus feats, then grabbing the extras as you need. This is also useful out of combat as many combat feats have out of combat applications.

As for the half giant, I would say since the brawler counts their fists as manufactured weapons you could count them as large weapons for the purposes of combat. At least RAI, run it by your DM.

[Florian]

I have seen the wombo combo handbook, which I will use, since the martial flexibility stuff seems like I'll have to build some combos. I was thinking of trying a few for the style feats as well (pummeling style looks good).

A lot of the style feats are really great. Personally, I really like Pummeling, Dragon, Blinded Blade and Brute, especially Brute. The main advantage of Martial Flexibility shows most clearly here: You only have to invest in the prereqs and you're golden to switch when you're needed. In my opinion, that really works best on a pure Brawler, no archetypes, maybe VMC Cavalier or Sorcerer (Orc).

I´m not so much of a fan of Mutagenic Mauler. BAB, TWF and natural weapons don't really mash unless you do an extreme build that can rival the sheer force of a Rageborn Fighter (Mutation Warrior/Savage Warrior) VMC Sorcerer (Orc).

[Elricaltovilla]

Another question. Half giants have a Powerful build racial trait. Doesn't seem to do much in terms of damage output mechanics wise. I mean, I guess RAW you can't really use fists that are one size larger, but is that RAI as well? Seems to me like a half giant would have some pretty big mitts to swing around.

A few things about the Half Giant:

1. They are a 3rd party race in Pathfinder. Many GMs are not okay with adding 3rd party material.

2. The Half Giant's powerful build is a little weird when dealing with unarmed strikes, but I don't think that a virtual size increase will be at all game breaking for them.

3. Even if you don't get the bigger damage die on your fists, the real benefit is that you count as larger for combat maneuver checks. This means that you can auto resist enemy combat maneuvers if the enemy is too small, and you have an easier time making combat maneuver checks against enemies that are larger than you. If you want to pick up Dirty Fighting and make use of combat maneuvers, this is especially important.

[DarkEternal]

A lot of the style feats are really great. Personally, I really like Pummeling, Dragon, Blinded Blade and Brute, especially Brute. The main advantage of Martial Flexibility shows most clearly here: You only have to invest in the prereqs and you're golden to switch when you're needed. In my opinion, that really works best on a pure Brawler, no archetypes, maybe VMC Cavalier or Sorcerer (Orc).

I´m not so much of a fan of Mutagenic Mauler. BAB, TWF and natural weapons don't really mash unless you do an extreme build that can rival the sheer force of a Rageborn Fighter (Mutation Warrior/Savage Warrior) VMC Sorcerer (Orc).


Yeah, I don't see the appeal, after more reading. Seems like it simplifies everything without really giving you a way out of situations or from giving you versatility which Martial flexibility very much does.


A few things about the Half Giant:

1. They are a 3rd party race in Pathfinder. Many GMs are not okay with adding 3rd party material.

2. The Half Giant's powerful build is a little weird when dealing with unarmed strikes, but I don't think that a virtual size increase will be at all game breaking for them.

3. Even if you don't get the bigger damage die on your fists, the real benefit is that you count as larger for combat maneuver checks. This means that you can auto resist enemy combat maneuvers if the enemy is too small, and you have an easier time making combat maneuver checks against enemies that are larger than you. If you want to pick up Dirty Fighting and make use of combat maneuvers, this is especially important.


I know that, though I did not imagine going too much into all kind of combat maneuver shenanigans, aside from a dirty trick. The basis of the character would be a dirty kind of fighter,a gutter combatant that doesn't care about the cleanliness of the fight, but of getting it done by any means necessary.

[DarkEternal]

Also, about the brawler bonus feats. If I am reading it right, besides the fact that you get them every few levels, you never really get more than one. It's always just one bonus feat all the time. All the "new" ones you get are basically retraining of that first one which you can forget and take a new one. Seems like a fairly poor choice. I mean, if it was a new feat every time you took it, it would be worth it, but this is basically just one combat feat. Doesn't seem worth the archetype loss.

[Florian]

Also, about the brawler bonus feats. If I am reading it right, besides the fact that you get them every few levels, you never really get more than one. It's always just one bonus feat all the time. All the "new" ones you get are basically retraining of that first one which you can forget and take a new one. Seems like a fairly poor choice. I mean, if it was a new feat every time you took it, it would be worth it, but this is basically just one combat feat. Doesn't seem worth the archetype loss.

You get a total of 7 bonus combat feats, with the added advantage that you can also start to switch them out, like a sorcerer with spells known. Plus the three combat feats that you can gain via martial flexibility.