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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Discussion on how to Standardize the Aging Rules [D&D 3.x/Pathfinder 1e]



Durzan
2018-10-29, 01:54 PM
Disclaimer: This is a 3.5e/PF 1e discussion

So, I've seen several threads in the archives where people have been asking how to develop characters and/or creatures that are younger than the minimum starting age, such as child characters and NPCs. Since there is no agreed upon standard method for creating child characters, and the rules for aging are did not appear consistent between players and monsters (not to mention the lack of rules for aging monsters besides the True Dragon)... it got me thinking. How could I standardize the rules for aging across all races and creatures, while also creating a method for creating child or abnormally young characters?

Using what I knew of the Core Rulebooks and some basic google-fu research, Here's my thought process...

In all versions of D&D, True Dragons have a unique aging mechanic called Age Categories, which does a fairly good job of showing a Dragon's development and growth. Age Categories affect a dragon's base Ability Scores, their HD, and their size. Reverse engineering the progression and cross referencing it with the monster-size increase table from the back of the MM has led to some interesting results: I was able to determine that Dragons received much of their physical buffs due to size increase.
The rules on aging in the Player's handbook already detail the effects aging has on older characters. When you break down those rules and examine them, they function fairly similarly to the True Dragon's age categories as Aging does apply modifiers to all six ability scores. While these rules do affect not affect the HD of a playable character, for arguments sake we can generally assume that an older character is generally more experienced than a younger character. In mechanical terms this would mean that an older character would probably have a minimum number of additional HD/levels over that of a younger character. As a result, we have a rough basis of correlation between age, experience, and HD similar to that of the True Dragons.
Various bits of Homebrew that I've found at previous points tend to treat younger characters in a similar fashion to how older characters are treated, with modifiers to all 6 ability scores depending on the general age of the character. In other bits of homebrew and SRD, I've seen templates that do a similar thing. In either case these modifiers are usually penalties, and often include size changes or effective size changes.
It is an established fact in real life that babies and young creatures that are still developing into their adult forms are often significantly smaller in size when compared to their adult form. Doing some basic research on human development has shown that Human babies are on average 20 inches long at birth (IE between 1 and 2 feet, making them Tiny in size category), around 32 inches by the time they become a toddler (Between 2-3 feet, Small in size), and will have grown to around the height of 48 in between the ages of 7 and 8 (4 feet tall or higher, thus reaching Medium size). When compared with the development of other animals, I quickly saw a relationship: Generally speaking, a baby is roughly 2 size categories smaller than its adult form, a young child 1 size category smaller, and an adolescent child anywhere from 1 size category smaller to the same general size category.
It is also an established fact that not only does the physical body develop and grow in capability, but so does the mind.
Since not all creatures age or develop in exactly the same way, it stands to reason that the age categories for most creatures would differ considerably based on their unique anatomy and physiology. However, since they would all more or less follow a similar pattern (with exception of creatures who go through Metamorphosis), the number of age categories wouldn't differ too much. In the case of the core humanoid races, we can generally assume that their development would have the same number of age categories.


Using the points above, I constructed a table of age categories (specifically for humanoids). I used the MM table for size increases as the basis for determining how age categories younger than adult affect physical stats, while using the increase on mental ability scores to reverse engineering a rough formula for mental affects on younger age categories. I then set the age category of "Adult" as the base-line (granting no age modifiers one way or another), assumed a minimum number of HD at 1, calibrated the rest of the table from there, factoring in minor adjustments to compensate when necessary.

For this table, I assumed that there would be 9 Age Categories: Infant, Toddler, Child, Juvenile/Preteen, Young Adult/Teenager, Adult, Middle Aged, Old, and Venerable. With this table as a starting line, I can easily use it as a template or starting point for creating similar tables for other races and creatures.

Table: Medium Humanoid Age Categories



Age Category


Size1


Minimum
Levels/ HD2


Aging Modifiers3


Notes4




Infant


T


1/4


-10 Str, -8 Dex, -4 Con, -4 All Mental Stats


Unplayable




Toddler


S


1/4


-6 Str, -6 Dex, -3 Con, -4 All Mental Stats


Generally Unplayable




Child


S


1/4


-4 Str, -4 Dex, -2 Con, -3 All Mental Stats








Juvenile (Preteen)


M


1/2


-2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 All Mental Stats








Young Adult (Teen)


M


1


-1 Str, -1 Con, -1 All Mental Stats








Adult


M


1


+0 To All Stats








Middle Aged


M


2


Same as Adult, but -1 to all Physical Stats and +1 to all Mental Stats








Old


M


3


Same as Adult, but -3 to all Physical Stats and +2 to all Mental Stats








Venerable


M


3


Same as Adult, but -6 to all Physical Stats and +3 to all Mental Stats


Dies once they reach their maximum age.




1. This table assumes the base size for an adult of the humanoid race is medium. For standard humanoid creatures that are small, shift the creature’s size for each age category down by one step, and adjust the age modifiers and Minimum HD accordingly. For large humanoids, increase the size for each age category by one step instead and adjust the age modifiers accordingly (using the monster size increase table in the Monster’s Manual).
2. The minimum Levels/HD are a rough guideline. Generally speaking, a member of a humanoid race will have AT LEAST that many HD.
3. The Aging Modifiers already factor in size modifiers to ability scores. Also, Age Modifiers are NOT cumulative in nature. When a character increases in age enough to go up an age category, remove the previous age category's age modifiers and apply the new ones accordingly.
4. Notes feature miscellaneous notes that may not fit anywhere else. If needed, feel free to add additional columns if needed. Generally are for GM use. Can be used to note increases in natural armor, noting when certain racial features may come online, and so forth. How you use it is up to you.

Once that was finished, I needed to figure out what the approximate age threshold was for each age category for some of the standard races. The result was this table:
Table: Core Races Aging1:



Race


Toddler


Child


Juvenile


Young Adult


Adult


Middle Aged


Old


Venerable


Max Age




Human


1 Year


4 Years


9 Years


13 Years


16 Years


35 Years


55 Years


70 Years


+2d20 Years




Half-Elf


1 Year


4 Years


10 Years


15 Years


20 Years


60 Years


100 Years


125 Years


+3d20 Years




Half-Orc


1 Year


3 Years


8 Years


12 Years


16 Years


35 Years


60 Years


90 Years


+1d20 Years




Orcs


1 Year


3 Years


6 Years


12 Years


14 Years


40 Years


60 Years


80 Years


+1d20 Years




Goblins


1 Year


3 Years


6 Years


12 Years


16 Years


30 Years


45 Years


60 Years


+2d20 Years




Halflings


1 Year


4 Years


8 Years


13 Years


20 Years


40 Years


75 Years


100 Years


+4d20 Years




Dwarves


1 Year


4 Years


15 Years


25 Years


40 Years


100 Years


150 Years


200 Years


+2d100 Years




Elves


1 Year


4 Years


12 Years


40 Years


80 Years


150 Years


200 Years


250 Years


+4d100 Years




1. I am using custom race ages here modified for a homebrew world. If you wish to use the standard ages listed in the Players Handbook or the SRD, you will have to adjust the table accordingly.

How to use: If you need to create a new table for a specific race or monster, then do so, adjusting the number of age categories, HD, and so forth to better fit the traits of that race or monster. Once that table is completed, create your Character/Monster/NPC as normal. Select their approximate age in years. Use that age to determine their age category, apply the age modifiers, adjust your character's size if needed, and apply any other changes listed in the notes. Bingo, you're done.

Questions for those interested in commenting: How do you handle young characters and character aging in your campaigns? What do you think of my methodology? Any thoughts, suggestions, or comments?

This is supposed to be a discussion; I just mentioned how I handle it to start things.

Almarck
2018-10-29, 03:04 PM
You can't standardize aging between all monsters and humanoids for a simple reason: not all creatures age the same. Dragons get supernatural powers and stronger with age, and many creatures don't develop like humanoids do such as many types of species that undergo metamorphosis and change into practically new life forms entirely. Oozes also don't aget the traditional way. Over-inclusivity is a danger because it ignores many exceptions. Arguably, "traditional" aging is abnormal when you look at the number of species that don't age like we do.

you also have to factor issues like say infants of one species are more developed than others. Human babies are remarkably underdeveloped, when compared to a puppy or a foal.


You also might be reinventing the wheel abit. There are a few 3rd party books about younger than average characters.

Durzan
2018-10-29, 04:19 PM
You can't standardize aging between all monsters and humanoids for a simple reason: not all creatures age the same.

I actually noted that myself in one of the opening observations of the OP. However, I can standardize the underlying methods behind aging in general. It's also why I specifically note that age categories may indeed vary between species, and would need to be adjusted accordingly.


Dragons get supernatural powers and stronger with age

Up to a point. If you look into the Draconomicon, you will find out that Dragon's do eventually suffer from old age. Its just that said negative aging effects happen practically all at once at the tail end of a dragon's long lifespan (2000+ years, give or take a few decades), instead of being spread out through multiple phases of aging, or happening gradually overtime.

Furthermore, I would assume that dragons are not the only creatures that become significantly more powerful as they age. I would argue that this is the case for most species, except that for many of them, they reach their peak and then gradually become frail over a longer proportionate period of time.


and many creatures don't develop like humanoids do such as many types of species that undergo metamorphosis and change into practically new life forms entirely.

What you said ultimately has little relevance on the actual mechanics I set forth regarding Age Categories, as Age Categories as a whole can be quite modular in nature. I specifically denoted that 9 age categories was a starting point, and more age categories could be added or removed if necessary. If you modify the average racial stats for a monster into racial ability modifiers, then the system becomes surprisingly modular, able to adapt for any species if you are willing to put forth the effort.

As far as my observations go, I was specifically examining creatures of mammalian descent as far as the two size categories rule of thumb goes, and honestly, the development process of humans and other vertebrates (particularly mammals) aren't that different. For instance, tigers, lizards, chickens, and humans share the same basic life cycle when looking at it from a broad perspective, despite the fact that the rate of development and the specifics of how and when they all develop differ drastically. You got the age where they are newborn and helpless (can last anywhere from a few minutes to a couple years), then you have a toddler equivalent, followed by various stages of being a child/adolescent/juvinile before finally reaching a fully grown adult stage. If they live long enough, they will deteriorate with age, eventually succumbing to it at a venerable stage.

The only reason I created a table specifically for Humanoid creatures is because they would have an extremely similar development cycle to each other (more-so than humans and a tiger), and because that was the whole point of this excersise: to make a uniform standard for playable races. While I could easily see how many species in real life and D&D could fit a 9 Age Category life cycle, others may require more or less age categories.

Arguably, creatures that undergo full metamorphosis would simply have less Age Categories than the 9 age categories used as a baseline for humanoid creatures. At worst, I'd have only four age categories for an insectoids such as a giant butterfly (Egg, which is unplayable; larvae, which would need to be treated effectively as its own creature; pupae, again unplayable; and Adult). But then again metamorphosis creatures would prove to be an exception, not the general rule. Even then, it works reasonably well.

Creatures that undergo partial metamorphosis (IE that shed and molt), would be easily accounted for with a normal age-category system.


Oozes also don't age the traditional way.

Arguably, Oozes don't physically age at all, and would be effectively immortal (meaning in this context, that they cannot die of old age or disease). I can make the case that they would have de-facto age categories, as their size is arguably a function of how much they have eaten since their creation... which is (you guessed it) their affective age.


Over-inclusivity is a danger because it ignores many exceptions. Arguably, "traditional" aging is abnormal when you look at the number of species that don't age like we do.

Point taken and already previously accounted for. Again, that wouldn't factor in very much into the mechanical implementation of developing Age Categories for a completely different species. The only thing I would need to account for is the possibility of a specific creature being born more than two size categories smaller, which is easy enough to account for.


you also have to factor issues like say infants of one species are more developed than others. Human babies are remarkably underdeveloped, when compared to a puppy or a foal.

This is another reason why I specifically focused on Humanoids for the baseline. Of the two examples you provided, a new-born foal is far more developed and capable than a new-born puppy. They still would follow a similar age category system to what I provided for a humanoid, just adjust the number of age categories, when they increase in size, and so forth accordingly.

For example, a dog's life cycle in age categories would be something like this: Newborn (Puppy with eyes closed, Diminutive, Age: 0 to 3 weeks), Puppy (Puppy with eyes open, Tiny, Age: 3 Weeks to ???), Child Equivalent (Tiny), Adolescent Equivalent (Small), Young Adult (Small), Adult, Middle Age, Old, Venerable. You could probably cut that down to as little as 6 age categories, but it works. Of course, You'd have to factor in racial modifiers and size modifiers, plus guesstimate mental modifiers.


You also might be reinventing the wheel abit. There are a few 3rd party books about younger than average characters.

XD. If I could find a 3rd party reference that was in an SRD or free, I may have already looked at it. As it was, I took Star Wars Saga and sources that other people have mentioned (Such as Conan d20) already into account when working on this.

Side Note: The PF supplement you linked in that PM looks like it has a similar idea to what I had. Unfortunately, I don't have the cash on hand to purchase it and have a look over.

Durzan
2018-10-30, 09:32 AM
Bump.

I shared how I dealt with the issue... anyone else got their own methods of dealing with aging in game?

Durzan
2018-11-01, 08:41 AM
Bumping the thread.

rferries
2018-11-05, 08:00 PM
This strikes me as very detailed but probably unnecessary. Plus there's a lot of potential wiggle room - mental penalties with aging to reflect dementia, Charisma bonuses for teenagers to reflect their force of personality, etc.

If it were up to me I wouldn't assign any stats to age, or would balance them out somehow (e.g. for each age category above adult you gain a level in an NPC class to reflect your life experience). PCs tend to leap on any chance to min/max haha.

aimlessPolymath
2018-11-06, 01:29 AM
One neat thing you can use this for is to find an expected age for your character based off your ability score rolls.

For example, suppose your rolls (off an online dice roller, using 4d6 drop lowest) were 15, 13, 14, 15, 17, and 10.

I could go to Anydice, and find that the expectation that you would get these scores as a Young Adult is
7.25 * 13.27 * 10.11* 7.25 * 1.62 * 11.42 = 130460
(percentages, but it's normalized correctly when compared to the other scores)
The expectation that you would get these scores as an adult is
10.11 * 13.27 * 12.35 * 10.11 * 4.17 * 9.41 = 657303
The expectation that you would get these scores as a middle aged person is
7.25 * 12.35 *10.11 * 12.35 * 7.25 * 7.02 = 568981

So these are more likely to be the ability scores of an adult than a middle aged person or teenager.