Castlevania Season 2 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Olinser

2018-10-29, 06:24 PM

So, Castlevania Season 2 came out and I watched the whole thing in 1 big sitting.

My response was... mixed.

The Bad:

- No Grant

- This FELT like a season that was padded after it was already written and finished. Too much time with the Big Three sitting in a basement doing nothing, too much time with Carmilla plotting and not actually doing anything, too little time of the Big Three hunting vampires

- Carmilla's whole plot kind of sidetracked the series without providing a very meaningful conclusion. I mean don't get me wrong it wasn't a bad plan. But then she just gets chucked aside and doesn't even participate in the final battle, and I felt like the whole plot was pointless you could have cut her character out entirely, completely removed the entire plot, and had the final fight sequence when the Big Three stormed the castle play out exactly the same

-We got very little backstory or development of Alucard. Why, exactly, does he feel strongly enough to kill his own father over the humans? We don't really know, just that he's doing it. We ASSUME that he's emphasizing with his human mother, but she was burned at the stake by other humans, so why exactly he's so willing to forgive them enough to actually be willing to kill his own father isn't really explored or explained.

- Over-development of characters that had no real impact on the plot such as Isaac and Godbrand, while NOT giving Alucard very much development

Godbrand in particular. He was the ONLY vampire apart from Carmilla that got any character development..... and just gets randomly backstabbed and staked by Isaac?

And Isaac. OK, he's a human working for Dracula and that merits some development. But he has very little relevance to the overall plot and then he gets chucked through the mirror before the fight even happens, so he can serve as a teaser for another season.

It just felt very much like they padded out his role to bring him back but forgot to actually make him relevant.

And Godbrand was fine for his purpose in the story. I mean he's a crude brute, but he does his job of demonstrating that vampires aren't all cultured scientific geniuses like Dracula. Some of them ARE just mindless killing brutes.

But to have him just get suddenly killed with laughable effort by a human that isn't even relevant to the plot for the rest of the season? If they were going to kill him off they REALLY should have had Carmilla or Hector be the one to do it.

- Under-development of characters that had outstanding designs - the varios Vampire Council members. Each had a unique design and fighting style and I literally think not a single one actually spoke the entire season. Which is a shame because they had AWESOME designs.

- Dracula himself was a HUGE disappointment

Dracula isn't a genius evil overlord. He's not carefully planning his assault on humanity. He's not railing against the God that took his love from him, and responding by killing God's children.

He's a whiny depressed wreck that just wants to die and doesn't even care.

- The final fight against Dracula was really good.... right up until the end.

Dracula had WON, and pretty decisively beaten the 3 of them. And then he just stops and lets Alucard kill him because he remembers he's his son and how sad he is that his wife is dead.

I thought it was really cheap that the only reason they defeated Dracula was because he let them. I felt like it robbed them of what should have been their greatest triumph and substituted it for a whiny suicide-by-vampire-hunter.

It should have been them (barely) beating Dracula, and right before Alucard finishes him off you could still have Dracula thanking him for ending it.

- The last episode between Sypha and Trevor was unnecessary and really not well done. I didn't need to see a poorly done romance, we just needed to see them going off hunting more vampires.

-The Good

- When the Big Three finally get off their duffers and storm the castle the fight with the Vampire Council was freaking AMAZING. One of the best extended fight sequences I've seen in any animated work and the remixed Castlevania music was awesome and fit the fight perfectly. All 3 of them demonstrated just why in the Castlevania universe they're some of the most feared vampire hunters to ever exist. It was 100% worth the rather slow leadup through the season for this fight sequence alone

- Likewise the fight with the monsters in the library was really good. Very distinct monster design and some good imports from the Castlevania games.

- Up until the ending the fight against Dracula was pretty good, showing how much stronger Dracula was than the others they had just slaughtered (and further demonstrating how pointless Carmilla's schemes were when Dracula could have single handedly wiped out her army)

- They DIDN'T attempt some heavy handed message about religion being evil. Really glad we didn't have to slog through more episodes of this. That was one of my biggest gripes about the first season - the time we spent on stupid priests being scenery-chewingly evil when they should have been fighting demons and vampires

Overall it started out pretty slow, with some dragging subplots, but finished with an AMAZING final fight sequence with a wide variety of distinct and powerful enemies, but with a disappointing final resolution.

I'd give it an overall 7/10, worth watching.

Wraith

2018-10-30, 06:26 AM

I think I agree with pretty much every point you made, Olinser. It was a very enjoyable show, with excellent animation and conception, but sadly flawed by a few problems with the plot and pacing.

This FELT like a season that was padded after it was already written and finished.

I find this to be a common problem with a lot of Netflix shows, rather than Castlevania alone - they take a great premise and then make it 2 or 3 episodes too long, spreading the goodness out longer than they ought to. Most of the Marvel Universe shows are exactly the same, The Defenders in particular feeling like it dragged through too much navel-gazing.

- Carmilla's whole plot kind of sidetracked the series without providing a very meaningful conclusion.

As soon as it was made obvious that she was a main character, I thought of her as sequel bait. I thought it was obvious quite early on that the resolution to her plot AND the main plot wouldn't have been satisfying in the time taken up by the last 2 or 3 episodes - I don't begrudge that, but it could have been handled better with better pacing.

- Over-development of characters that had no real impact on the plot such as Isaac and Godbrand, while NOT giving Alucard very much development

Godbrand bothered me for a different reason - not that he was overdeveloped, because I too enjoyed the idea that each of the vampires were different, and that some of them were barbarians compared to the scholarly, refined poise of Dracula.

What bothered me in particular isn't even that he was killed off so easily, but that is was then not built upon. Seeing Isaac kill Godbrand in 10 seconds flat should have been a scene meant to define one of two things - either that Isaac himself is a monstrously powerful and dangerous opponent capable of killing vampires with impunity, OR to showcase that the other vampires aren't actually all that powerful, and despite their strength and speed they can still be overcome quite reliably by mortal humans.

As is was, the scene gets no pay-off because Isaac is pushed through the mirror and never gets to properly showcase his skills, so we don't really get a feel as to how powerful he is versus the 3 protagonists. Without that sort of validation, all it does is make Godbrand look like a chump - taken out almost casually by a human who later has to work to fight the other nameless vampires in Carmilla's army. It left me wondering: Are all vampires this feeble?
By killing Godbrand off so quickly, and then not going on to prove how insanely powerful Isaac is, really diminishes the power of vampires in general and thus undermines Dracula himself - for all his power and strength, he can't keep these other thin-blooded, nameless NPC's in line? Really?

- The final fight against Dracula was really good.... right up until the end.

Agreed. There should have been more of a conversation between them, with Alucard being the accuser and Dracula angrily retorting until his warped logic was defeated and then submitting to death; what actually happened glossed over a lot of that too quickly and made it too much of a jump.

What they possibly could have done, is to dedicate the entire penultimate episode to JUST the fight between the 3 and Dracula - make the whole invasion of the castle happen in the previous episode and instead dedicate 25 solid minutes to each of the heroes tagging in and out, showcasing their abilities and how Dracula adapts to fight them and allow more of a dialogue. Trevor would be blunt and dismissive of Dracula as just another monster to be put down just like Belmonts have always done, Sypha appealing to his intellect and how he could save humanity rather than kill it, and finally Alucard stepping in with the personal, private accusations of betraying Lisa's memory.... It would have made a lot more sense and would have been a very grand finale for all of the characters.
Again though, the pacing was against the show and it would have taken some major rewriting to get that particular wish.

- The last episode between Sypha and Trevor was unnecessary and really not well done. I didn't need to see a poorly done romance, we just needed to see them going off hunting more vampires.

Agreed. Although I didn't feel that it was so much that they were beginning a romance, but more like they were suggesting they might go on to begin one. Sequel-bait again, promising to deliver more in a potential series 3, but less of a leap in that they were just friends, in the same way that Alucard and Trevor had formed a mutual respect rather than actual camaraderie. Could have been done better, but it could have been far worse.

Poor Hector, though. He just wanted to help his friend and save a small part of the world.
Although in retrospect, Carmilla is the dumbest person on the planet. She and Hector had the very same conversation that she and Isaac had - the hellbeasts created by a Forgemaster are entirely loyal to them alone, and she's forcing him to build an entire army to rival that of Dracula's. Yes, she's beaten him into submission for now.... but she's about to give him resources enough for 1,000 hellbeasts - what does she think is about to happen thereafter, as soon as he gets his head together!? :smalltongue:

All that aside, 7/10 feels about right whereas series 1 probably managed 9/10 at it's peak. Definitely worth continuing and I enjoyed it despite my grumbling. :smallsmile:

HolyDraconus

2018-10-30, 10:18 AM

Eh, some of it made sense. They ARE trying to keep it somewhat close to lore, so the romance made sense. Godbrand was bullied by Carmilla and even Hector brow beat him, so him being casually offed the way he did made sense as well, he didn't really have what was needed to survive. I knew the Hector crap was coming but it didn't make it any better. Going by lore this is pretty close to the end of Trevor's story, and although Danasty didn't show it's pretty much whatever at this point. The question I have is if they are going to end it with the showdown of the hell forge master or are they going to keep going with Juste Belmont?

Flying Turtle

2018-10-30, 01:15 PM

I agree with more or less everything that has been said but there were two things that really stuck in my craw.

Everything went a little too cleanly for the heroes. The vampires twiddled their thumbs just long enough for the heroes to find a way to lock down the castle. When they did lock down the castle it was literally minutes after Camilla had just wasted nearly Dracula's entire army. It just strained my suspension of disbelief too much and it felt like they were just trying to write around the fact that Dracula had a literal army of the damned between him and out heroes.

The other thing was the scene where the undead priest turned an entire lake into holy water. It's not the lake that bothers me though, it's the priest. Last season that same priest was so corrupt and unfaithful that his own church was explicitly devoid of god, which was why the demon's could enter it. But for some reason once he became a zombie he could bless an entire lake.

Also, I'm still really pulling for additional seasons addressing other points in the timeline. I'd like to see Symphony of the Night, Simon's Quest, and the Sorrow games adapted in particular. Especially if the show us the as of yet unseen Castle War from the background of Aria of Sorrow.

BRC

2018-10-30, 02:16 PM

okay, my thoughts

1) The Pacing. I binged the show, and had a good time, although I did acknowledge that it was slow, and that the Heroes didn't do that much. If I watched it at a slower pace, it would probably be unbearable.

Godbrand didn't really need to exist as a character, or at least not much of one. Just make him one of the Vampire Generals with slightly more personality and a voice actor. Carmilla could have been the one to confront Dracula about who the vampires will eat once the war is over. The only other relevant thing that Godbrand did was lead the other vampire generals on the raid, and I'd honestly rather have gotten another action scene with our Heroes. Reducing Godbrand's role could have freed up the time they needed to do other stuff.

2) I actually like the take of Dracula as a tragic figure, but I felt that we got there too fast after the rage and grief that was season 1 Dracula. I think we could have used a few scenes of Dracula going from Furious Anger at Humanity to a grief-stricken depression. As is, the moment the season opens, Dracula is posturing in front of his generals, and then moping in his study. He can be a depressed wreck for the final fight, briefly roused from his stupor by Carmilla's Betrayal and the Hero's subsequent invasion of his castle, who then has a breakdown at the thought of killing his son. That's fine, but let's make a bit of a character arc to get there, instead of having Carmilla, Godbrand, and the other vampires have the same conversation over and over again.

3) We spend a lot of time with Dracula's Court, and who we're supposed to sympathize with gets confused.

Like, everybody there is a Monster. It seems like we're supposed to sympathize with Poor, Naive Issac, who was fooled by Dracula, and later by Carmilla. But, Issac is ALSO a monster, he willingly signed on for the atrocity of wiping out almost all of humanity, leaving the rest as livestock for vampires. The difference between that and wiping out ALL of humanity seems pretty academic. Issac is a terrible person, and so setting him up as some sort of poor naive dupe seems weird.

JadedDM

2018-10-30, 02:30 PM

I think it's worth pointing out that Godbrand was attacked from behind and was surprised. He never expected 'livestock' to be any kind of threat to him. Dracula even made a point to mention that vampires like Godbrand aren't even capable of looking at humans as thinking beings anymore.

I don't think his death was meant to telegraph that Issac is super powerful or that vampires are weak. Godbrand underestimated humans, and that was his downfall.

Z3ro

2018-10-30, 02:58 PM

Word is the second season was originally written to be 4 episodes, then Netflix expanded it to 8. There was maybe enough material to get to 6, but 8 was way too many. I liked the first season better, the pacing and story were much tighter, but the second season was still a solid binge watch.

Giggling Ghast

2018-10-30, 03:19 PM

I think the fight scenes were suitably epic this season, and the witty banter between Trevor, Sypha and Alucard did provide a lot of laughs. They're the most charming thing about the show, which feeds into my one major complaint that I'll go into detail in a second. I was also suitably moved by the final fight with Dracula ...

... and how, in the end, he realizes the horror of his actions. That was some really fantastic voice acting on Graham MacTavish's part. Good Lord.

And that ending with Alucard weeping in Dracula's castle was sad as hell too.

In general, the show's strengths were the intense actions scenes, the excellent characterization and great laughs.

It seems kind of a pity, then, that it chose to spend so much time on the petty squabbles of Dracula's generals. That's not to say I disliked any of them or that we shouldn't have spent ANY time wth them, but I really wish the show had more focus on Trevor, Sypha and Alucard.

What did the heroic trio's adventure consist of? Well, after the initial four episodes ...

... they end up going to a library and almost immediately finding the Plot Tokens necessary to defeat Dracula. It doesn't even take them that much time to find the friggin' library; the Belmont estate is apparently only a day or so away from the city of Gressit.

I was hoping for a slightly more epic adventure. It kind of undercuts the enormity of the threat when the heroes basically have the whole crisis wrapped up within the span of a week.

To put things in perspective, Castlevania Season 2 was a bit like Star Wars: The New Hope ending right after Han, Luke, Chewie and Obi-Wan are pulled on the Death Star. Having effectively snuck on the enemy space station, they seize the opportunity to immediately blow up the main reactor, destroying the Death Star and killing Darth Vader.

That's not so much a hero's journey as a hero nipping down to the corner store to pick up milk.

Giggling Ghast

2018-10-30, 03:29 PM

Dracula had WON, and pretty decisively beaten the 3 of them. And then he just stops and lets Alucard kill him because he remembers he's his son and how sad he is that his wife is dead.

I feel like you watched a different fight than I did. Sure, Dracula was massively powerful, but he hadn't decisively beaten all three of them. He had separated Alucard from the others because they had evenly matched him.

- The last episode between Sypha and Trevor was unnecessary and really not well done. I didn't need to see a poorly done romance, we just needed to see them going off hunting more vampires.

That's ... that's what they're going to do. :smallconfused:

As for the romantic subplot, well, it IS canon in the games that Sypha and Trevor eventually get together. That's how the Belmont line continues, y'see.

I agree with more or less everything that has been said but there were two things that really stuck in my craw.

Everything went a little too cleanly for the heroes. The vampires twiddled their thumbs just long enough for the heroes to find a way to lock down the castle. When they did lock down the castle it was literally minutes after Camilla had just wasted nearly Dracula's entire army. It just strained my suspension of disbelief too much and it felt like they were just trying to write around the fact that Dracula had a literal army of the damned between him and out heroes.

The other thing was the scene where the undead priest turned an entire lake into holy water. It's not the lake that bothers me though, it's the priest. Last season that same priest was so corrupt and unfaithful that his own church was explicitly devoid of god, which was why the demon's could enter it. But for some reason once he became a zombie he could bless an entire lake.

I agree with your first point, but I should note that the undead priest blessed a river, not a lake.

Flying Turtle

2018-10-30, 04:07 PM

I agree with your first point, but I should note that the undead priest blessed a river, not a lake.

After all that talk about running water blocking vampires but not still water I still confused the bodies of water. Where did they land on that discussion anyways? The fact that they were able to cross the river makes it seem like Godbrand was right, it just seems weird that Dracula and Camilla weren't sure themselves.

Giggling Ghast

2018-10-30, 05:11 PM

The fact that Godbrand could sail means vampires can cross running water, at least via boat or bridge. Whether or not they can be killed via immersion in this universe remains to be seen.

Perhaps the belief that running water kills vampires is because someone once blessed a large body of water, and ever since then, vampires associated running water with instant death. :smalltongue:

In any case, Camilla's argument for attacking Braila was that it was a river port, and taking the town would prevent escape from Wallachia.

The Jack

2018-10-30, 10:45 PM

Giggling Ghast

2018-10-30, 11:18 PM

Well, they were more like regional rulers of the vampire kingdom as opposed to actual generals.

Dracula outstrips them all because he’s the Lord of Vampires. He’s the embodiment of Evil itself.

Olinser

2018-10-30, 11:26 PM

Some things I thought.

Vampire strengths didn't feel right.
Dracula>>>>The Half vampire, Alucard, for some reason> The mist vampire>>>> Every other vampire.
Like even when the middle eastern vampire general was doing backflips and such, he somehow felt like a chump barely better than the rank'n file. I didn't get why the vampire generals were generals; only one of them had an army, and they didn't act like generals, just no communication between them.

Braila-
I get that many of the flying demons were taken out in s1, but somehow I don't think it makes sense to send marching legions around, it doesn't play to the vampire strengths, it just makes a target, and if the goal is extermination, it's just giving the humans an opportunity to run.

I agree on the undead priest; nope, nope and nope.

I've only played symphony of the night, so I'm well out of the time frame, but I was kinda hoping it'd be a bit more... gamey. I don't feel Drac's castle was really as well explored as it could be, and I've been secretly hoping for some JoJo-like fights with monsters and unique room features.

Why don't the strengths feel right? Alucard has always been more powerful than 'normal' vampires, a combination of the fact that he was fathered by Dracula, the most powerful vampire ever, and the fact that he was actually born a vampire, while almost all others were converted humans (Carmilla explicitly says she was made a vampire).

Part of the Vampire Generals getting trounced was that they matched up against opponents that countered their strengths. Backflip vampire got slaughtered by Sypha, sure, but that's because he couldn't actually fight her and was basically stuck dodging around spells until she landed one. If he'd gone for Trevor or Alucard he may have actually been able to fight them. At least they actually put up a fight - the rank and file vampire soldiers got slaughtered laughably easily.

Ramza00

2018-10-31, 02:55 PM

Concerning the general battle.

The protagonist 3 are stronger than the average vampire general but at the same time it is like paper>rock>scissors where each of your generals had a specialty and your specialty is stronger than one or maybe two of the protagonist 3.

Thus this is a good fight scene for it was well done showing that each of the protagonist 3 can defeat a vampire general. Alucard may stomp a general vampire general but against the oriental mist girl it is better to swap with Sypha. Somersault guy is a bad match against Sypha but against Trevor he would be strong for he probably could dodge the morningstar.

I do not think I can do the vampire general fight scene better. Only thing I could imagine that may improve the scene is all 3 of the protagonists have minor injuries that were close calls against the generals they were weak against, but as soon as they swap fighting partners the protagonist 3 continue to dominate.

Wraith

2018-10-31, 02:59 PM

I agree on the undead priest; nope, nope and nope.

I sort-of justified it in my own head, that because the Church was so corrupt and completely godforsaken what they were actually doing was just magic and calling it by another name. That's part of the reason as to why the church tried to chase away the Speakers in Season 1; because they are one of the very few people who still use magic apart from the Vampires (who are Evil) and the Belmonts (who are extinct by their hand) and thus would be able to recognise what they were doing.

That's completely in my own head though, and there's probably not a lot in the show itself to support it.

Giggling Ghast

2018-10-31, 03:23 PM

I think the easiest explanation is that God didn’t have an issue with his power being used to kill a bunch of vampires, even when the blessing of the river was being done by a reanimated bishop. After all, it contributed to Dracula's defeat.

On a non-plot related front, Castlevania has been renewed for a third season:

https://deadline.com/2018/10/castlevania-renewed-season-3-netflix-richard-armitage-james-callis-1202493302/

Olinser

2018-10-31, 04:26 PM

I sort-of justified it in my own head, that because the Church was so corrupt and completely godforsaken what they were actually doing was just magic and calling it by another name. That's part of the reason as to why the church tried to chase away the Speakers in Season 1; because they are one of the very few people who still use magic apart from the Vampires (who are Evil) and the Belmonts (who are extinct by their hand) and thus would be able to recognise what they were doing.

That's completely in my own head though, and there's probably not a lot in the show itself to support it.

It's explicitly contradicted in Season 1, actually, both when Trevor needs Holy Water he explicitly asks for a 'real priest ordained in a Church', and when Blue Eyes was taunting the Bishop he said that God had withdrawn protection from the Church. The Church in particular there's no reason magic would have suddenly failed.

The implication was that there is a God and he does grant Holy protection against evil, but a lot of the 'priests' were just thugs in robes never actually ordained. The Bishop, however evil he was, was still an ordained priest, and there are basically zero scenarios where having Holy Water would hurt anything other than evil undead, so it makes sense to me he'd still be able to make Holy Water.

Chromascope3D

2018-10-31, 04:43 PM

I think the easiest explanation is that God didn’t have an issue with his power being used to kill a bunch of vampires, even when his power was being invoked by a reanimated bishop. After all, blessing the river did contribute to Dracula’s defeat.

On a non-plot related front, Castlevania has been renewed for a third season:

https://deadline.com/2018/10/castlevania-renewed-season-3-netflix-richard-armitage-james-callis-1202493302/

Netflix has a hair trigger when it comes to renewing shows, so this doesn't surprise me. Maybe now that the writers know what to expect episode-wise, next season will work out most of its pacing issues.

Edit: except netflix ordered 10 episodes this time. Netflix what are you doing to these poor writers please stop.

JeenLeen

2018-11-02, 09:19 AM

I basically agree with the above.

One joke I absolutely loved was one of Godbrand's lines.

whoever: "You haven't met anything you haven't immediately tried to kill, [sleep with], or turn into a boat."

Godbrand: "What? I like boats. I'm a Viking. We turn things into boats."

The non-sequitur of the boat line really made me laugh.

On the running water and vampire plots

That did seem rather confusing. I can see the point of vamps not knowing it's fatal if they've never been in it, but it's hard to imagine Viking vamps never went for a swim. (I've heard historically most sailors may not have known how to swim, but still...)

However, it would make sense if Carmila (sp?) was setting up the holy-water-river trap, but wanted to lay the belief in the other vamps that normal water could do it. In other words, she might've been spreading misinformation to help cover her tracks.
But I admit this is not developed. It just seems one sensical option.

I also found it odd that she didn't help in the attack against Dracula. Not knowing that the castle would teleport and ruin her plans, it seems she'd accompany her troops. If she had, she could probably do a Stirring Speech and recruit at least some of the other generals to her cause. I can see her thinking Godbrand is easy enough to manipulate and so openly hostile to Dracula that he's the only one she tries to recruit, but the other generals have similar reasons to join her once a coup is in play.

Also it seems stupid that she stops trying to manipulate Hector. I can see her wanting to put humans in their place since she's a jerk vampire, but being a secret jerk who is still emotionally manipulating your demon-army-maker makes more sense.
Though maybe she was trying that, but he made it (a little) clear he wasn't gonna help her, hence the leashing and beating.

I also rather didn't like

That Dracula switched from ending humanity on Wallachia to wiping it out in general. I guess it makes sense as a move, but his opening threat in season 1 was to kill all humans in Wallachia. I guess he got more broody during his year of army-raising, and it established the plot of season 2, but it seemed a strong disconnect from season 1 for the first few episodes. I really thought the writers just forgot Dracula's original plan and were retconning it, at least until some more stuff was revealed.

Also that his army was at least partially made by humans, instead of just summoned from hell. Though (I think Hector) does explain that the night-horde reproduces on its own enough to be summoned normally, but with the losses of the war* he and Issac need to replenish the stock.
*but what losses? Has any city survived without demon hunters showing up?

Lemmy

2018-11-02, 11:22 AM

I agree on the undead priest; nope, nope and nope.I'm not even religious and I agree that it didn't make much sense... But OTOH, that scene of him burning while blessing the water was really cool! :smallbiggrin:

And of course, there's the possibility that Olinser brought up:

It's explicitly contradicted in Season 1, actually, both when Trevor needs Holy Water he explicitly asks for a 'real priest ordained in a Church', and when Blue Eyes was taunting the Bishop he said that God had withdrawn protection from the Church. The Church in particular there's no reason magic would have suddenly failed.

The implication was that there is a God and he does grant Holy protection against evil, but a lot of the 'priests' were just thugs in robes never actually ordained. The Bishop, however evil he was, was still an ordained priest, and there are basically zero scenarios where having Holy Water would hurt anything other than evil undead, so it makes sense to me he'd still be able to make Holy Water.

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-02, 12:11 PM

Hector: Godbrand, you've never met anything

Godbrand: "What? I like boats. I'm a Viking. We turn things into boats."

"Bigot! I'm a f***ing Viking! We're supposed to make boats out of things!" :smalltongue:

JeenLeen

2018-11-02, 01:52 PM

"Bigot! I'm a f***ing Viking! We're supposed to make boats out of things!"

Yeah. I think that's my favorite scene.

The fight scenes were cooler. Though I admit it did bug me a touch how coordinated Trevor, Sylpha, and Alucard could fight together as a team. They haven't had a ton of practice as a team, yet some of those techniques were crazy complicated. Woulda thought Trevor's accidentally whip one of his allies at least once or the guys land in a fireball.
Still, cool factor overwhelms that.

Olinser

2018-11-02, 06:25 PM

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-03, 03:59 PM

On Carmilla:

I don’t think Carmilla hates humans so much as she hates men. Plus, she’s a bit sadistic. Although I don’t know all the circumstances that led up to her offing him, I imagine there were easier ways of killing her old master than decapitating him with a barbed noose.

But she’s a little cowardly too, because she didn’t attack Hector until the sun was down and he was in chains. She also left her troops to do all the fighting in Dracula’s castle and loses her cool when learning that a Belmont is still alive.

Metahuman1

2018-11-04, 03:22 AM

Just finished it. Watched it in 2 sittings a few days apart cause of timing of some other things in life.

Anyway.

A point to consider. The way she told that backstory, it's like a combination of someone who was bullied and eventually got powerful enough to bully others and now relishes it. And a person who was in an abusive relationship, and now goes out of her way to BE the abuser in relationships as a sort of continued revenge/self protection mechanism.

I think that was what was going on with Hector near the end. She no longer felt she needed to be subtle, she's thinking/hoping he's feeble enough in will, dim enough of wit and lacking enough of both courage and maturity that she can just keep regularly beating him to remind him who's bigger and badder, and thus keep him form turning on her.

She's, ironically, a more realistic depiction of Mr. Grey (I don't care enough to look up his first name.) from 50 Shades of Grey trilogy. In that she's not treated as being good or heroic or anything for what she's doing at least.

She's taken a "Pet", whom she keeps in line with beatings and the like. But she's ignoring expressed lack of consent to all of this while she does it. And her victim is responding, not, entirely unrealistically, as an abuse victim might.

OracleofWuffing

2018-11-04, 04:39 AM

- The last episode between Sypha and Trevor was unnecessary and really not well done.
This, so much this. If there's one thing that'll prevent me from watching Season 3, it'll be how some writer pretty much turned Sypha into a self-insert so they could blatantly announce pitches for what they could do if they got their show renewed for another season. Well, you got your season, good luck getting my attention again.
I also hated Camilla's new plans after she finds out Dracula is dead. "There's a vacuum of power in the underworld?" Gee, would have been nice in, all that worldbuilding you did, you explained why it's so cool to rule the underworld and how the underworld is more than just "All the dudes that showed up at Dracula's Castle," but with your timing on all this it sounds like somebody forgot they were writing for Castlevania and pasted in something from a Twilight fanfic.

File me in the "Dracula was underwhelming at the end" crowd, as well.
Most of my Castlevania knowledge comes from Captain N, but isn't Dracula supposed to be one of the boss fights that has a second form these days? I was anticipating some sort of onion skin thing going on where we peeled through Dracula's hard exterior to see his mourning interior, only to peel further and find some Lovecraftian horror of a core that shows he's far darker and madder than when we started, playing some sort of Xanatos Gambit where he expected this whole plan to go off the rails. Would have really shown off all that wondrous intelligence everyone loved to talk about, but... Nope.
"Dracula too sad to evil."

I feel by the end of the season, Trevor was wasted. I really liked his character, but once you hit that Dracula fight?
His net contribution to the story was zero. Yes, he was present in the Dracula fight, but outside of choreography, his most meaningful contribution was to demonstrate that his super weapon that he was so amazed to find is ineffective against its target. He doesn't even get to contribute by the time Dracula leaves himself open, Sylpha just steps in and burns the redeadified vampire. Okay, I get he's supposed to be a cynical slacker of a person, but why does the Vampire Hunter what started all the Vampire Hunting games not get to hunt the head vampire? He's got great lines and delivery, but in terms of Season 2, you can replace him with a sign that reads, "THIS WAY TO LIBRARY" and the story's the same.

Crud. That's another post all about negatives, even though I liked it as a whole. It was like having a dinner with an appetizer, soup, salad, and steak, but not liking the dessert.

Kato

2018-11-04, 06:45 AM

A lot of things I agree with hve been said already, so I'll try to keep my reply short. (note: I didn't pay full attention but let it run in the background, so...)

1) The season was absolutely full of filler. I guess you can argue about why, but just because Netflix' demands more episodes doesn't mean you have to make them bad. The whole vampire politics and infighting and setup for the villains served no purpose this season but was basically all thing that might come back in season three. Also, it made neither Isaac nor Hector sympathtic to me. I'm not sure how intentional that was.
But yeah, like 75% of the season was villains backstabbing each other and the heroes sitting in a library.

2) I'm... fine with the final fight. I mean, I'm not fine with the vampires massacring each other so the heroes had an easy win, or the few monsters in episode 6 giving Trevor a way harder time than a room full of vampires (though both fights were done fine, just the monsters being that much more cpable seems stupid to me)
Dracula... I can live with. It was clear he could have destroyed them and only lost because he didn't mean to win at any time. I'm fine with Dracula being done in by his emotions, not his power. But I would have really prefered it if Alucard would have talked him down instead of Vlad just giving up upon seeing the room. I kind of understand it but I don't think it's the best ending.

3) The overall tone... Some things realy felt off, especially the humor often felt displayed, especially among the heroes. It just felt forced often. Godbrand on the other hand managed to be very entertaining as long as he was around, to me at least. I would have liked him to be more important and sticking around. Such a waste.

I think it's okay overall, but the dragged out story hurts it a lot. Couldn't they have put in another adventure for the heroes instead of the villain stuff? Have the two parties interact at least a bit? :smallsigh: I feel then we'd have a much more satisfying story overall.

Chromascope3D

2018-11-04, 08:32 AM

I guess you can argue about why, but just because Netflix' demands more episodes doesn't mean you have to make them bad.

If it was a live action show, then I'd agree. But considering the standard production cycle for producing even one 20 minute episode of TV animation is about 9 months, I'm willing to cut them some slack in that regard.

The Jack

2018-11-04, 08:48 PM

Sidenote: as a guy who likes his historical warfare, i thought the warrior monks were off (existed in history, still felt off) and I was rather saddened that the cool armour of camilla's troops was just decoration. Like even though so many characters had super strength, i was kinda thinking they'd have armour to go with it.

Main thing: as a player of a certain Vampire rollplaying game, i was thinking that blondy was lying her ass off with the abusive sire story, because I'd have gone with the same lie (character permitting). It was a calculated story and the VA has a " don't trust me" voice. Plus I don't think she's the type to show true vulnerabilities.
Also, only showing the kill says something about the story.

What I felt went on, was that the lady was initially cruel and power hungry, and taking out her sire was a neccessary move for her, as he became aware of her nature and would have taken steps to curb her. Her sire didnt arbitrarily just become more cruel, he discovered her as more monsterous than desired
Her story has the same themes and similar dots to the truth; its a very convenient lie.

Wraith

2018-11-05, 08:26 AM

What I felt went on, was that the lady was initially cruel and power hungry, and taking out her sire was a neccessary move for her, as he became aware of her nature and would have taken steps to curb her. Her sire didnt arbitrarily just become more cruel, he discovered her as more monsterous than desired
Her story has the same themes and similar dots to the truth; its a very convenient lie.

Given that she made repeated references to her standing up on behalf of the female vampires on the council who were "overshadowed by the males" (or words to that effect) and then is never shown as having a conversation with another female vampire on the council, I'm perfectly prepared to believe that every single word she has said so far is either a lie or a deliberate omission to further her own conquests. :smalltongue:

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-05, 04:06 PM

She is seen hanging out with the black lady vampire in Episode 2 at 19:30, just before the "vampire bath" discussion. Of course, they don’t actually speak, but none of the vampire generals except Godbrand and Carmilla have VAs.

I would take a screenshot to prove it, but you can’t take pictures of Netflix programs on mobile, and the process of taking screenshots and transferring them over to Imgur on my Mac is exhausting.

ArlEammon

2018-11-05, 04:27 PM

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-05, 05:18 PM

I've seen all the episodes except the last episode. . . I guess that the next Season will either have the characters be senior citizens or the next generation, dealing with Dracula just like the video games.

I don't want to give any spoilers, but it's wall to wall tits. Easily the most erotic cartoon I've ever watched, and that includes werewolf sex videos on Pornhub.

Rakaydos

2018-11-05, 05:31 PM

ArlEammon

2018-11-05, 05:38 PM

My prediction:
Season 3: Carmilla's buildup, black forgemaster's revenge, Carmilla dies/white forgemaster escapes.
Season 4: Dracula's castle retaken, White forgemaster ressurects Dracula, Death becomes a character,
Season 5: Dracula's castle, hard mode.

I'm hoping they'll at least have Orlock or Death in Season 3, maybe Death is how Dracula is resurrected in Season 3.

Olinser

2018-11-05, 07:08 PM

I don't want to give any spoilers, but it's wall to wall tits. Easily the most erotic cartoon I've ever watched, and that includes werewolf sex videos on Pornhub.

What?

There's literally no actual nudity, Carmilla has PG rated cleavage and they make a couple sex jokes. That's about it.

This show has less tits than 90% of Japanese anime shown on actual daytime television.

Chromascope3D

2018-11-05, 07:32 PM

What?

There's literally no actual nudity, Carmilla has PG rated cleavage and they make a couple sex jokes. That's about it.

This show has less tits than 90% of Japanese anime shown on actual daytime television.

I think he was being ironic, but didn't indicate it.

---

Re: Next Season
I'm gonna guess that Alucard has something to do with his father's resurrection (either intentionally or by accident) due to both his grief and access to the combined knowledge of both his father and the Belmont clan.

Eldan

2018-11-06, 03:24 AM

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-06, 04:07 AM

He was joking since someone said they hadn't seen the last episode yet.

At least somebody got it. Maybe I should try to be less subtle with my humour in the future.

Have you ever noticed how men always leave the toilet seat up?

...

That’s the joke.

Wraith

2018-11-06, 09:41 AM

She is seen hanging out with the black lady vampire in Episode 2 at 19:30, just before the "vampire bath" discussion. Of course, they don’t actually speak, but none of the vampire generals except Godbrand and Carmilla have VAs.

That's kind of my point. It's not as though the script didn't have enough free time to SHOW her talking to other people if they needed to, so I'm operating under the assumption that Carmilla's lack of direct communication with anyone - apart from those she was trying to manipulate - was intentional so as to represent her as a liar and manipulator. "If you don't see it happen on screen, then it hasn't happened", kind of thing - more might be said later, but until then it's perfectly in-keeping with what we know of her. :smalltongue:

Narkis

2018-11-06, 03:13 PM

I finally got around to seeing this season, and I'll just have to echo what everyone else already said. Season 1 left me stoked for more. Season 2 left me vaguely disappointed, though it did have its good points.

Psyren

2018-11-07, 01:40 AM

The combat was beautiful but the whole felt rather rushed. There was no real arc for any of the three protagonists beyond learning the power of teamwork, and even then they stormed the castle like they'd been fighting alongside each other for years. Practiced and synchronous moves, no getting in each other's way, no ego one-upsmanship contest between Trevor and Alucard... they spend a few scenes snarking at each other, then monsters show up and they effortlessly kick all their asses before going right back to the one-liners.

And Sypha, good lord Sypha. The amount of problems that were raised only for her ridiculously OP magic to straight up solve were ludicrous. Too many enemies? Have some AoE. Sealed door? I know that dead language. Boss too far away? One summon coming up. Stairs to him smashed? Have an effortless elevator. All of that and then she's Korra levels of waterbending, rendering her completely untouchable even to vampire reflexes. About the only time she needed help was against Dracula's own magic, and even then she was at least holding her own solo.

I was expecting the vampire council to be a Quirky Miniboss Squad of sorts. All the stylistic options were there - Egyptian vampire, Chinese vampire, German vampire, then you'd have the elites (Viking Vampire aka Godbrand for raw power, and Carmilla for the cunning boss that escapes to be the S3 antagonist.) Instead, our trio utterly curbstomped every single vampire and fiend they came across up to Dracula himself.

I get that, working together, the three of them should be the scariest thing any vampire could hope to come across. But there was no build-up to that; once they had recruited Alucard it was basically game over, and nothing that happened in S2 ended up actually mattering. I guess we know that there are necromancers called "forgemasters" in this universe that can make armies, but even with that knowledge, does anyone really feel like the protagonists are in any sort of danger? From a bunch of zombies led by a second-rate schemer, especially one who likely has yet another villain about to nip at her heels?

Legato Endless

2018-11-08, 02:19 PM

Yeah, I'd file this under a watch the fight scenes and skip the story series currently. Anemically plotted, fragmentary implied characterization and thematically disposable. The pacing hasn't improved and main trio ride a wave of convenience to victory.

We did get more enemy variety though beyond the generic gargoyle demons...so that's something. Also tedious in that so far it seems everyone except Dracula dies due to sheer ineptitude. The antagonists this season are only a relative step up because the church in the opening arc was suicidally oblivious.

Psyren

2018-11-08, 02:52 PM

I haven't been this disappointed in a villain squad since the Espada in Bleach.

Actually, this whole series so far feels like Tite Kubo. As one internet commentator described it, he just wants to draw cool ****, and creating new characters out of thin air is a way to do that. He's not interested in developing them or even just using them as anything more than speedbumps for the heroes.

But again, those fight scenes are absolutely worth the price of admission, so if you're primarily here for the spectacle you'll get a lot out of it.

random11

2018-11-09, 03:39 PM

I'm kind of divided about the season.

I liked the villains, the way they were developed as characters in parallel to the main trio.
However, there was almost no impact of this growth in this season.

So, is it a good thing that there is character development that will only be seen in the next season, whenever that is?

Needless to say, the action part was great, although it made me wonder when they had the time to train working as a group.

Psyren

2018-11-09, 04:07 PM

Needless to say, the action part was great, although it made me wonder when they had the time to train working as a group.

Exactly, it made me wonder if I missed a season. They should have charged at Dracula half-cocked and gotten their asses kicked, then retreated to learn about each other and grow as characters from their setback. Instead, we got the equivalent of Aang mastering all 4 elements in Season 2 and stomping Ozai right then and there.

Thrawn4

2018-11-09, 05:41 PM

ArlEammon

2018-11-09, 05:59 PM

I would like to say

Walter kind of got what he needed. Maybe he didn't deserve, per se, what happened to him, but he was almost as much of a monster than the rest of the council.

Also

Was Dracula trying to save Isaac's life or something, or was he just being dickish?

JadedDM

2018-11-09, 06:06 PM

They should have charged at Dracula half-cocked and gotten their asses kicked, then retreated to learn about each other and grow as characters from their setback.
If they fought Dracula, and lost, wouldn't he have just killed them all?

Does that mean 12 months are enough for rumours cropping up in the city about a legendary hero sleeping under the city until he is needed? Because in season one they treated it like an old legend, not something that happened a few months ago. Does not make a lot of sense to me.
The legend already existed, long before Alucard arrived there (and presumably sent from the future). Alucard specifically chose to sleep there because of the legend, in hopes that when the prophecy came to pass and the hunter and scholar came looking for the hero, they would find him instead.

Basically, the whole thing was a deliberate self-fulfilling prophecy.

Olinser

2018-11-09, 07:21 PM

I basically agree with everything said (decent series for fans).

However, there is one thing I do not understand.
Dracula's wife died around a year before Dracula attacks again (when the series takes place). Alucard opposed his father for wanting revenge, failed, and was brought to his long sleep under that one city (or escaped to this place?). Does that mean 12 months are enough for rumours cropping up in the city about a legendary hero sleeping under the city until he is needed? Because in season one they treated it like an old legend, not something that happened a few months ago. Does not make a lot of sense to me.
Or am I missing something?

It seems like there is some future telling shenanigans happening. They kind of implied this at the end of the first season when Sypha was talking about the prophecy and Alucard asked if she knew the whole thing, and she blushed, clearly alluding to the fact that she knew the prophecy said she was destined to bang out some babies with Trevor.

Kind of seems like the prophecy/rumors have been around for a while, Alucard knew that and hid himself there to hopefully find the hunters that were supposed to come looking for him, thus fulfilling the prophecies.

If nobody ever came and the prophecy was a dud I assume at some point Alucard would have tried another go at Dracula solo (a la Symphony of the Night).

Narkis

2018-11-09, 08:13 PM

I would like to say

Walter kind of got what he needed. Maybe he didn't deserve, per se, what happened to him, but he was almost as much of a monster than the rest of the council.

Who?

Was Dracula trying to save Isaac's life or something, or was he just being dickish?

I thought it was pretty explicit that Isaac was the only human Dracula actually respected, and deliberately spared him from being collateral damage in his suicide-by-Alucard.

Olinser

2018-11-09, 08:29 PM

Who?

I thought it was pretty explicit that Isaac was the only human Dracula actually respected, and deliberately spared him from being collateral damage in his suicide-by-Alucard.

I believe he is referring to Hector and got confused on the names.

LaZodiac

2018-11-09, 08:32 PM

Binged season 1 and 2 with a friend of mine recently, steppin' on in to say this show ruled, and their use of Blood Rain was brilliant.

Also haah...seeing everyone trying to guess what they'll do next. Assuming they don't skip around, next game on the list is Curse of Shadows, so expect to see a lot more Hector and Isaac.

Narkis

2018-11-09, 08:41 PM

I believe he is referring to Hector and got confused on the names.

Oh, yeah. The Greek guy. That makes sense. I can't say he didn't get what he deserved, but I must say I expected a little more savviness from his new boss when we were told the legions he's about to forge will be loyal to him above all else.

LaZodiac

2018-11-09, 08:55 PM

Oh, yeah. The Greek guy. That makes sense. I can't say he didn't get what he deserved, but I must say I expected a little more savviness from his new boss when we were told the legions he's about to forge will be loyal to him above all else.

I mean it's why she put the collar on him.

By the time Carmilla is done with him, the undead legions will be loyal to him, who will be loyal to her.

ArlEammon

2018-11-09, 09:16 PM

I believe he is referring to Hector and got confused on the names.

Yeah. I meant Hector.

Narkis

2018-11-09, 10:11 PM

I mean it's why she put the collar on him.

By the time Carmilla is done with him, the undead legions will be loyal to him, who will be loyal to her.

She had him wrapped around her finger before she dropped the play. The collar is a poor substitute, and I fully expect him to grow a backbone andsic his legions at her next season, even if he ends up dying in the process.

LaZodiac

2018-11-09, 11:09 PM

She had him wrapped around her finger before she dropped the play. The collar is a poor substitute, and I fully expect him to grow a backbone andsic his legions at her next season, even if he ends up dying in the process.

Assuming it goes the route of the games, he'll escape not with a huge horde but a small selection of powerful demons, and then fight Isaac.

Also assuming it goes the route of the games, I fully expect almost the entirety of team Belmont next season to be gathering allies and training the next generation. They spent nearly half of the 8 episodes they had in a library, I can 100% see them not actually having our main characters interact with the plot. But since Carmilla is around in Austria still, they'll drop some hints towards one of the students being the eventual master of Nathan for when they do that game.

Callos_DeTerran

2018-11-09, 11:57 PM

Assuming it goes the route of the games, he'll escape not with a huge horde but a small selection of powerful demons, and then fight Isaac.

Also assuming it goes the route of the games, I fully expect almost the entirety of team Belmont next season to be gathering allies and training the next generation. They spent nearly half of the 8 episodes they had in a library, I can 100% see them not actually having our main characters interact with the plot. But since Carmilla is around in Austria still, they'll drop some hints towards one of the students being the eventual master of Nathan for when they do that game.

I'unno if they'll end up following the course of the games that closely, they seem pretty intent on Carmilla and Isaac being the next big bads and I've never heard of Carmilla being the big bad of a Castlevania game.

I enjoyed this one as well considering it addressed some of the problems I had last season. Last season there was practically no villain characterization aside from parts of the first episode and we really got to know Trevor and Sypha. So this season we get a lot more focus on Dracula, Carmilla, and the Devil Forgers in addition to some Alucard characterization and just a touch more for Trevor and Sypha as well.

Action scenes were still good but I really just enjoy Trevor fighting as a whole, its just a delight to watch and I seem to be in the minority that enjoyed the end of the fight with Dracula as well. I suppose my biggest complaint is there wasn't enough interactions between the villains and heroes still but the improved enemy design was on point.

On Devilforgers though: Its important to note that they weren't just creating the walking dead with what they were doing, they were basically preparing the bodies so that demons could possess and inhabit them. They aren't making zombies, they're making fiends. That's also why the fiends that attack the Belmont archive were so strong, remember that Carmilla asked Hector to create a special batch of troops to specifically go after the Belmont? That was them and why they gave Trevor so much trouble.

Its also why Carmilla isn't worried about what she's doing to Hector. As she and others pointed out, the dude just seems incapable of viewing the world...right. Everyone is just animals to him and that's what Carmilla's display is, proving to him that he's just as much of an animal as everyone else but also her animal. By the dude's own worldview he deserves what he's getting, I don't think Carmilla will have much trouble controlling him for a long time.

Legato Endless

2018-11-10, 01:19 AM

If they fought Dracula, and lost, wouldn't he have just killed them all?

Given his actions every other time he had a bunch of people in front of him dead to rights, that doesn't seem a safe assumption.

Olinser

2018-11-10, 01:36 AM

I'unno if they'll end up following the course of the games that closely, they seem pretty intent on Carmilla and Isaac being the next big bads and I've never heard of Carmilla being the big bad of a Castlevania game.

I enjoyed this one as well considering it addressed some of the problems I had last season. Last season there was practically no villain characterization aside from parts of the first episode and we really got to know Trevor and Sypha. So this season we get a lot more focus on Dracula, Carmilla, and the Devil Forgers in addition to some Alucard characterization and just a touch more for Trevor and Sypha as well.

Action scenes were still good but I really just enjoy Trevor fighting as a whole, its just a delight to watch and I seem to be in the minority that enjoyed the end of the fight with Dracula as well. I suppose my biggest complaint is there wasn't enough interactions between the villains and heroes still but the improved enemy design was on point.

On Devilforgers though: Its important to note that they weren't just creating the walking dead with what they were doing, they were basically preparing the bodies so that demons could possess and inhabit them. They aren't making zombies, they're making fiends. That's also why the fiends that attack the Belmont archive were so strong, remember that Carmilla asked Hector to create a special batch of troops to specifically go after the Belmont? That was them and why they gave Trevor so much trouble.

Its also why Carmilla isn't worried about what she's doing to Hector. As she and others pointed out, the dude just seems incapable of viewing the world...right. Everyone is just animals to him and that's what Carmilla's display is, proving to him that he's just as much of an animal as everyone else but also her animal. By the dude's own worldview he deserves what he's getting, I don't think Carmilla will have much trouble controlling him for a long time.

That's not really true. Carmilla has never been the true final boss, but she has been the main antagonist in a couple games.

In Castlevania 2 there are only actually 3 bosses - Carmilla, Death, and Dracula, and you resurrect Dracula yourself. Carmilla is the one holding the access to Dracula's castle, and in the (very abbreviated) plot, is the one trying to resurrect him, so she is the main antagonist of the plot.

Likewise in Circle of the Moon, Carmilla (well TECHNICALLY Camilla) is the one completely driving the plot from start to finish and is the one to successfully resurrect Dracula. Dracula is the final boss but Carmilla is mastermind and primary plot driver.

LaZodiac

2018-11-10, 04:34 AM

Them doing a season based off of Circle of the Moon would also be consistent with them doing stuff inspired by the games no one likes and are secretly bad (3, Curse of Shadows, COTM).

It'd fit their MO, and honestly the fact that Hector and Isaac are characters at all shows the guys running this show know their draculagame, so I'd genuinely be surprised if they didn't touch on COTM a little.

Lacuna Caster

2018-11-10, 06:07 AM

She's, ironically, a more realistic depiction of Mr. Grey (I don't care enough to look up his first name.) from 50 Shades of Grey trilogy. In that she's not treated as being good or heroic or anything for what she's doing at least.

She's taken a "Pet", whom she keeps in line with beatings and the like. But she's ignoring expressed lack of consent to all of this while she does it. And her victim is responding, not, entirely unrealistically, as an abuse victim might.

I mean it's why she put the collar on him.

By the time Carmilla is done with him, the undead legions will be loyal to him, who will be loyal to her.
Carmilla isn't as bright as she thinks she is, but she was the only vampire in this series who actually had a plausible master-plan, and the beating she gave Hector struck me as legit disturbing in a way that none of the random slaughter of civilians or dracula's brooding did. I'm not entirely sure I want to see more of that, but she's certainly a villain more worthy of the name.

I agree with most of the analysis in this thread- the pacing is rather too languid and the difficulty curve is very uneven, but I think it came together pretty well at the end.

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-11, 11:31 AM

However, there is one thing I do not understand.
Dracula's wife died around a year before Dracula attacks again (when the series takes place). Alucard opposed his father for wanting revenge, failed, and was brought to his long sleep under that one city (or escaped to this place?). Does that mean 12 months are enough for rumours cropping up in the city about a legendary hero sleeping under the city until he is needed? Because in season one they treated it like an old legend, not something that happened a few months ago. Does not make a lot of sense to me.
Or am I missing something?

The legend existed before Alucard went to sleep. It’s implied that the “legend” actually came from the future, so that the Speakers would seek out the Sleeping Soldier when Dracula began ravaging the land.

LaserNuts

2018-11-14, 03:17 PM

I wasn't a big fan of this season. The animation quality went down but the show was longer... but it was also padded with boring and ultimately useless bits. The first season, while too short, was much better on all accounts.

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-14, 05:35 PM

The animation quality went down

lolwut :smallconfused:

LaserNuts

2018-11-14, 06:58 PM

lolwut :smallconfused:

The quality of the animation went down from season 1 to season 2. lolthat :smallwink:

Psyren

2018-11-14, 07:23 PM

The quality of the animation went down from season 1 to season 2. lolthat :smallwink:

Disagree, the movement and the fighting was better than ever. It's the pacing (narrative) I have the most issue with.

LaZodiac

2018-11-14, 07:57 PM

The quality of the animation went down from season 1 to season 2. lolthat :smallwink:

This is not something that will ever really get resolved since it's a personal opinion.

But god if I don't find that you're INCREDIBLY wrong here.

LaserNuts

2018-11-15, 05:14 PM

This is not something that will ever really get resolved since it's a personal opinion.

But god if I don't find that you're INCREDIBLY wrong here.

And I'm afraid that I must insist in the opposite direction.

You can clearly see that they used fewer drawings or frames for each movement in season 2 compared to season 1. This is most likely because season 1 had tons of time to fine tune as it was in the works for so long, while season 2 had an actual deadline to meet. I'm actually dumbfounded that people couldn't tell that the animations are jerkier. I'd suggest watching an episode of season 2, then immediately watch an episode of season 1 and you'll see what I'm getting at.

LaZodiac

2018-11-15, 05:31 PM

And I'm afraid that I must insist in the opposite direction.

You can clearly see that they used fewer drawings or frames for each movement in season 2 compared to season 1. This is most likely because season 1 had tons of time to fine tune as it was in the works for so long, while season 2 had an actual deadline to meet. I'm actually dumbfounded that people couldn't tell that the animations are jerkier. I'd suggest watching an episode of season 2, then immediately watch an episode of season 1 and you'll see what I'm getting at.

I literally binge watched it all in like two nights. I disagree.

Chromascope3D

2018-11-15, 11:49 PM

I'm actually dumbfounded that people couldn't tell that the animations are jerkier. I'd suggest watching an episode of season 2, then immediately watch an episode of season 1 and you'll see what I'm getting at.

I recommend watching Dragon Prince right before. I guarantee you won't notice any more choppiness. :smallwink:

LaserNuts

2018-11-16, 10:41 AM

I literally binge watched it all in like two nights. I disagree.

Well, so did I and it's clear as day.

Grey Watcher

2018-11-16, 11:34 AM

Dragonus45

2018-11-16, 01:49 PM

The quality of the animation went down from season 1 to season 2. lolthat :smallwink:

I would say the overall quality stayed the same, but they focused more on having big blow out sakuga moments in the fight scenes more then keeping it high quality across the entire season. I assume that is because they doubled the episode count.

LaZodiac

2018-11-17, 02:02 AM

OK, I've been looking for someone to vent my thoughts to, so this is not in response to anyone in particular, just my hot-take.

To me, the overall impression is that they got bored with the story they set out to tell about a third of the way through the season and just rushed various things in order to turn the story into what they wanted.

Carmilla showed a lot of promise. The cold, cunning manipulator was nice contrast to Dracula, who's so powerful that he doesn't have to bother with politicking. The payoff of her scheme just felt really abrupt and, frankly, kinda blunt for her.

Godbrand was a waste of a perfectly good character. An excellent foil to the highly educated Dracula and the perfectly poised and collected Carmilla, there was a lot of cool implication that he was smarter and more cunning than everyone else gave him credit for. I was looking forward to the chess game between him and Carmilla to influence Drac and/or Godbrand playing detective trying to find solid proof of Carmilla's treachery. Then just nope! I mean, I guess it's good to establish that Anyone Can Die, but it would've been good to see some, any development of the vampire courtiers, so that at least we don't know who is and isn't going to survive.

Dracula growing outright bored with the quest for vengeance made no sense. "Do not bother me with the petty details," is one thing, but losing enthusiasm for the project altogether is just... wat? So much for the endless lifetime of hate before him, I guess.

The final assault on the castle was really disappointing. Yeah, we got two really awesome fight sequences out of it, but we spent 3 episodes on the Save the Seekers/Siege of Gresit subplot in Season 1, another 2 just finding the Belmont family library, and another 3 digging through it. (And, by the way, building up and then just abandoning Alucard's ambivalence about working with a someone who's family is just as genocidal against his father's side as Drac is to his mother's.)

One magician locking down an entire ancient engine of magic just... really? Like, that's awesome for Sypha, but if she's that powerful, why does she even need the others? Surely she could just explode Dracula's head as soon as she laid eyes on him. Having the entire Castle be one episode, after working so hard to establish how dangerous it is just left me asking "Was this series based on a speedrun?"

And yeah, Drac going out not with a bang, but a whimper (literally) just... wow. I mean, yeah, he's probably coming back, but at this point that just feels really predictable.

Oh, and it's a relatively minor irritation but this:

"I just can't see working Grant in. A pirate in a landlocked country? Makes no sense."
"Hey, let's spend two thirds of the season having the characters arguing about whether or not to attack a port city!"

:headdesk:

So, yeah, I give the season a C-minus. Entertaining, but really a let down on the promise of both the first season and the beginning of the second season itself.

I didn't get that myself, personally, but I understand what you mean.

It didn't feel like they got bored with it, it's just the fact that Carmilla for all her pomp and circumstance...the instant her plan actually BEGUN, Sypha stole the castle. She was in part 1 of like 5, and then Sypha just noped the castle out of there. She didn't get time to finish, and that's kind of on purpose.

I love Godbrand but also find that he fulfilled his purpose flawlessly. There just isn't much left to the guy other than what we saw, so while he's amusing he would of easily run thin. I do wish we got more from the others though, that would of been cool.

Dracula looked at the actually grueling, impossibly lengthy task of killing all of humanity...and even his rage burnt out. You can't genocide an entire planet in anything resembling a short amount of time, and there's only so much distance rage can take you. So of course he'd find himself dulled by it all. It's part of his characterization that even the pure raw hatred he had due to his wife's death ran out eventually.

Because as powerful as she is, she's still a simple wizard. Look at Trevor and his morning star. He can blow up even the general vampires, but Dracula is just on a higher level than them. Alone, Alucard got beat in one shot. Together, with friends backing him up, he beat his father! And I'd argue that going out on a "whimper" is actually better, considering what a good scene it was! Dracula just mourning his wife, realizing the only way he could advance was by killing his beautiful son, and realizing he COULD NOT.

Grant wasn't put in because it would mess up the three man band dynamic they had going on. He exists in universe and will likely show up next season given Alucard is busy.

Grey Watcher

2018-11-17, 11:06 AM

I didn't get that myself, personally, but I understand what you mean.

It didn't feel like they got bored with it, it's just the fact that Carmilla for all her pomp and circumstance...the instant her plan actually BEGUN, Sypha stole the castle. She was in part 1 of like 5, and then Sypha just noped the castle out of there. She didn't get time to finish, and that's kind of on purpose.

It's not that her plan got interrupted, it's that "attack the castle with forces wearing my own, actual livery" just feels jarringly unsubtle for the character as established. I'm not a good enough writer to give you a specific better alternative plan, but she really came off as the sort of person who can create a network of favors and suggestions so that she can always sidestep blame and/or other people actually think it was their idea in the first place.

I love Godbrand but also find that he fulfilled his purpose flawlessly. There just isn't much left to the guy other than what we saw, so while he's amusing he would of easily run thin. I do wish we got more from the others though, that would of been cool.

I thought Godbrand was an awesome character to. It's why I'm disappointed he got killed off so very soon. Like, I expected him to last to the end of the season (I also didn't expect them to finish the freaking game by the end of the season, too.) Again, I just feel like having someone on the same power level as Carmilla (courtier to Dracula, below Hector and Isaac in the formal chain of authority) but with such a wildly different personality, mindset, and general outlook would've made for some good conflict. Because they would work at cross purposes, but also have to work together sometimes to overrule/persuade Hector and Isaac, all the time with Dracula playing referee. Plus, as it played out, I never really saw any reason why Dracula brought him in on things in the first place; like I said, I got the vague impression he was smarter than he looked, but they never really explored that.

Dracula looked at the actually grueling, impossibly lengthy task of killing all of humanity...and even his rage burnt out. You can't genocide an entire planet in anything resembling a short amount of time, and there's only so much distance rage can take you. So of course he'd find himself dulled by it all. It's part of his characterization that even the pure raw hatred he had due to his wife's death ran out eventually.

It just feels like pulling the rug out from under the plot. Dracula's rage burns white hot for a full year, such that he still throws the proverbial switch on the whole "blood and demons rain down on Targoviste" bit. Almost every moment that Dracula's on screen builds it up. For a mortal, the enormity of the task wearing them down might make more sense, but Dracula's not mortal. That it might take decades or even centuries to exterminate humanity isn't a problem for someone who can live forever. I mean, I dunno, maybe I'd like it better if the little bit of conscience Lisa had managed to impart had started nagging at him and that was the reason for his newfound ambivalence.

But even if that had been the case, I don't know that I'd be satisfied. Going from "Kill for the endless lifetime of hate before me" to "This is all just sound and fury signifying nothing and I don't care anymore" should at the very least take longer than it took to drum up the demon army in the first place.

Because as powerful as she is, she's still a simple wizard. Look at Trevor and his morning star. He can blow up even the general vampires, but Dracula is just on a higher level than them. Alone, Alucard got beat in one shot. Together, with friends backing him up, he beat his father!

OK, her one-shotting Dracula was probably a bit hyperbolic, but it still undercuts so much of Drac's supposed power that one human wizard, and a fairly young one at that, can overpower a machine that he's been building and tweaking and perfecting for centuries.

And I'd argue that going out on a "whimper" is actually better, considering what a good scene it was! Dracula just mourning his wife, realizing the only way he could advance was by killing his beautiful son, and realizing he COULD NOT.

Him having a last minute pang of conscience is fine. But him stopping and just standing there repeating "my boy... I'm killing my boy" just... ugh. Dracula could be many things, but pathetic just shouldn't be one of them. That Dracula throws the fight because he's finally reminded of the bit of humanity Lisa brought out in him I can accept. Hell, handled better, I'd say bravo to it. But just the way it was written, the maudlin wallowing in that specific moment. Just... really?

Grant wasn't put in because it would mess up the three man band dynamic they had going on. He exists in universe and will likely show up next season given Alucard is busy.

Eh, there are plenty of examples of a four-person dynamic out there, so it still feels kinda lazy to just leave him out altogether. But given how little love he's gotten in the video game series since C3, I can't entirely blame them, either. :smalltongue:

Though as for next season, given that we've already passed the point in the plot where C3 ends (ie Dracula's death), I don't know if we can say anything for sure about what the plot holds in store.

I dunno, just still overall disappointed. Maybe just because I had too specific a set of expectations.

Olinser

2018-11-17, 02:07 PM

It just feels like pulling the rug out from under the plot. Dracula's rage burns white hot for a full year, such that he still throws the proverbial switch on the whole "blood and demons rain down on Targoviste" bit. Almost every moment that Dracula's on screen builds it up. For a mortal, the enormity of the task wearing them down might make more sense, but Dracula's not mortal. That it might take decades or even centuries to exterminate humanity isn't a problem for someone who can live forever. I mean, I dunno, maybe I'd like it better if the little bit of conscience Lisa had managed to impart had started nagging at him and that was the reason for his newfound ambivalence.

As far as Dracula goes it actually does make sense with what was presented. Dracula was probably already burned out when the 1 year was up.

But then he looks in and what are the stupid humans doing? CELEBRATING THE DAY THEY KILLED HIS WIFE. Rage re-ignited for a time.

But I definitely agree the ending of the Dracula fight was just bad. I'm half expecting them to go with the Camilla resurrects Dracula plot from Circle of the Moon.

LaZodiac

2018-11-17, 05:53 PM

It's not that her plan got interrupted, it's that "attack the castle with forces wearing my own, actual livery" just feels jarringly unsubtle for the character as established. I'm not a good enough writer to give you a specific better alternative plan, but she really came off as the sort of person who can create a network of favors and suggestions so that she can always sidestep blame and/or other people actually think it was their idea in the first place.

I thought Godbrand was an awesome character to. It's why I'm disappointed he got killed off so very soon. Like, I expected him to last to the end of the season (I also didn't expect them to finish the freaking game by the end of the season, too.) Again, I just feel like having someone on the same power level as Carmilla (courtier to Dracula, below Hector and Isaac in the formal chain of authority) but with such a wildly different personality, mindset, and general outlook would've made for some good conflict. Because they would work at cross purposes, but also have to work together sometimes to overrule/persuade Hector and Isaac, all the time with Dracula playing referee. Plus, as it played out, I never really saw any reason why Dracula brought him in on things in the first place; like I said, I got the vague impression he was smarter than he looked, but they never really explored that.

It just feels like pulling the rug out from under the plot. Dracula's rage burns white hot for a full year, such that he still throws the proverbial switch on the whole "blood and demons rain down on Targoviste" bit. Almost every moment that Dracula's on screen builds it up. For a mortal, the enormity of the task wearing them down might make more sense, but Dracula's not mortal. That it might take decades or even centuries to exterminate humanity isn't a problem for someone who can live forever. I mean, I dunno, maybe I'd like it better if the little bit of conscience Lisa had managed to impart had started nagging at him and that was the reason for his newfound ambivalence.

But even if that had been the case, I don't know that I'd be satisfied. Going from "Kill for the endless lifetime of hate before me" to "This is all just sound and fury signifying nothing and I don't care anymore" should at the very least take longer than it took to drum up the demon army in the first place.

OK, her one-shotting Dracula was probably a bit hyperbolic, but it still undercuts so much of Drac's supposed power that one human wizard, and a fairly young one at that, can overpower a machine that he's been building and tweaking and perfecting for centuries.

Him having a last minute pang of conscience is fine. But him stopping and just standing there repeating "my boy... I'm killing my boy" just... ugh. Dracula could be many things, but pathetic just shouldn't be one of them. That Dracula throws the fight because he's finally reminded of the bit of humanity Lisa brought out in him I can accept. Hell, handled better, I'd say bravo to it. But just the way it was written, the maudlin wallowing in that specific moment. Just... really?

Eh, there are plenty of examples of a four-person dynamic out there, so it still feels kinda lazy to just leave him out altogether. But given how little love he's gotten in the video game series since C3, I can't entirely blame them, either. :smalltongue:

Though as for next season, given that we've already passed the point in the plot where C3 ends (ie Dracula's death), I don't know if we can say anything for sure about what the plot holds in store.

I dunno, just still overall disappointed. Maybe just because I had too specific a set of expectations.

She also told Hector the instant he became implicated that she didn't give basically a single ****. She is very smart and very good at planning, but once she's "good" she'll throw away subtlety for carnage because she is, ultimately, someone who will just rampage and destroy like Godbrand. She just has some degree of intelligent.

Hard disagree on that, Godbrand died the instant he was just about to start being insufferable to me. As for why Dracula recruited him...have we considered part of his suicide note was to kill every other vampire he could as well?

It wasn't just one young wizard, it's Syphe ****ing Belnades. She's meant to be a prodigy, given she's the first Speaker to look at a book and go "holy **** this is brilliant aint it" and she also did it with help from Alucard, who ALSO knows the inner workings of the castle. That's why he wasn't fighting either, remember.

I have absolutely no idea how I can possibly explain to you the this man, coming to the realization that his dead, near emotionless rage, has lead him to curb stomp the last remaining proof of his wife, his one true love, and being crippled by it is AMAZING as an ending. If you don't LIKE it, that's fine, but to say it's a bad ending is disgustingly wrong. It's not just wallowing in the reminder of the bit of humanity brought out in Dracula, it's the literal, physical representation of their love, of who she WAS, standing before him bloody and beaten by his own hands, in his childhood bedroom. It is incredibly powerful, and VERY well executed.

Yes, there are examples of four man band dynamics. They said that after season 1 they didn't want to introduce Grant because that would shake things up too much. They aren't leaving him out, he's IN the universe and they have plans for him. Again, season 3 is gonna have Trevor and Sypha wandering around missing a third team mate. That's the perfect time to bring Grant out. Given Isaac will probably make her castle in Arabia, it'd even provide a good way to GET Grant, by having them board a ship.

Regarding season 3, I think it'll be Hector and Isaac's game next, with our heroes getting waylaid on the way to stop him themselves (meeting Grant in the process) and having their own little adventure that ends up forshadowing Circle of the Moon for season 4.

Chromascope3D

2018-11-18, 09:39 AM

given she's the first Speaker to look at a book and go "holy **** this is brilliant aint it"

That actually reminds me, after she said "Speakers are enemies of God," I started noticing that her magic hand symbols were all devil horns.

Which, is just both so painfully on the nose and brilliantly subtle at the same time that I have to give it props. Rock on, Sypha.

ArlEammon

2018-11-18, 09:57 AM

Eh, I think the final battle between Sypha, Trevor and Alucard against Dracula was perfect. It proved that maybe there's some hope for Dracula left, even if they had to get rid of him.

Knaight

2018-11-18, 11:51 AM

Overall I liked it - the pacing was a bit slow, but the core plot structure of a lot going on at a fractious vampire court while Dracula sulked in the background worked for me, particularly given the way the two main schemes (Carmillas and the protagonists) played off each other in the background. I also generally liked the characters; the new ones were all terrible people and I can't see that part being enjoyable for people who want a sympathetic character to root for but I'm totally fine just watching events play out between interesting characters who are also terrible.

But she’s a little cowardly too, because she didn’t attack Hector until the sun was down and he was in chains. She also left her troops to do all the fighting in Dracula’s castle and loses her cool when learning that a Belmont is still alive.
I'm not sure here - my read is more that she's cold and calculating, while trying to avoid unnecessary risk, more than cowardly per se. She still essentially ran a coup against Dracula, which is definitely less cowardly than not doing so, and as for the rest of it? That's a successful ambush (a terrible decision executed well, and pretty much doomed to backfire eventually), leading from the rear (consistent with not taking unnecessary risks), and just good sense. She was entirely correct about Belmont being a threat, and entirely correct to watch the castle in case they showed up to grab powerful relics that could be used against them. Which they did, in both cases.

The characterization as cold, calculating, and shrewd also lines up pretty well with Carmilla and Godbrand being foils of each other. Godbrand is very much a hot character, running on passion and impulse, with a taste for the simple things in life, and as for shrewdness? He managed to blab the plans for a coup to the one real loyalist, turn his back to him, and get killed for it. The two represent extremes of vampirism, and it generally works, though some of the particulars could be better with the pacing.

Given that she made repeated references to her standing up on behalf of the female vampires on the council who were "overshadowed by the males" (or words to that effect) and then is never shown as having a conversation with another female vampire on the council, I'm perfectly prepared to believe that every single word she has said so far is either a lie or a deliberate omission to further her own conquests. :smalltongue:
The words weren't really to that effect - she never said anything about standing up on their behalf. She contemptuously noted that they were marginalized, then said that she had no intention of that happening to her, personally. That's been pretty consistent characterization - vampire society is sexist, and she, personally, wants to be powerful enough to get to ignore that. She's given no indication of caring about the rest of them, or for that matter literally anyone else at all.

Essentially, this gets back to my read on her as very cold and calculating. Heck, it fits the foil even - Carmilla tends towards "they" and 'I", watches out for herself pretty exclusively, and just uses other vampires. Godbrand meanwhile definitely sees himself as one of a group of vampires, and throws around "we" pretty heavily. The core motivations work out pretty nicely to "I will rule them" and "we will live well", and I don't think it's a coincidence that the way the character motifs and plot arcs work out involves the collapse of a semi-cooperative society getting kicked off by the death of Godbrand and the ascendance of Carmilla.

Disagree, the movement and the fighting was better than ever. It's the pacing (narrative) I have the most issue with.
The movement and fighting was pretty bad, and while at first it just seemed off in a hard to place way the specifics eventually became apparent. The movement of the focal character is consistently fine; there's areas where it's a little too smoothed out and could probably use a bit more variation in speed but that's minor. Look at how everything else moves when that happens though, and you'll see a lot of less focal characters not moving at all. The fight between Isaac and the cannibals in the desert is particularly egregious here, but it's pretty consistent and really noticeable.

I recommend watching Dragon Prince right before. I guarantee you won't notice any more choppiness. :smallwink:
I'd call the animation on Dragon Prince better, personally. Sure, Castlevania has a higher frame rate (according to people much better at picking that up than I am), but the shortcuts taken per frame really show through. Granted, choppiness isn't a criticism I'd level against this. There's nothing choppy about immobility, and every problem I have with how things moved had to do with the movement being reminiscent of linearly interpolated motion tween applied directly to time between keyframes than anything.

Psyren

2018-11-18, 01:24 PM

Overall I liked it - the pacing was a bit slow,

Right off the bat, I think our perceptions are so far off from each other that there isn't even a point in us discussing the show.

Giggling Ghast

2018-11-19, 04:46 PM

The words weren't really to that effect - she never said anything about standing up on their behalf. She contemptuously noted that they were marginalized, then said that she had no intention of that happening to her, personally. That's been pretty consistent characterization - vampire society is sexist, and she, personally, wants to be powerful enough to get to ignore that. She's given no indication of caring about the rest of them, or for that matter literally anyone else at all.

That was my read as well.

Wraith

2018-11-20, 05:50 AM

That was my read as well.

Interesting that everyone else agrees and I am mistaken.

I genuinely believed that Carmilla was deliberately dropping examples of discrimination against female vampires (and herself, specifically) as her motivation, and that it would be shown later in the plot that she was using it as a form of manipulation - almost as if she were trying to ingratiate herself with Dracula by suggesting how she and his wife had been similarly mistreated - and also as her excuse when she later let other members of the council take the fall for her actions.

Apparently I read too much into it, though - she was just dropping her backstory and it turned out to be far less relevant to the immediate crowd.
I'm not sure if that is good writing (in that her motivations are more selfish, and thus more direct) or possibly a wasted opportunity to give her a Freudian excuse like everyone else seems to have - I don't think for a minute that anyone believes that her portrayal of killing her sire for being abusive is the entirety of the story, for example. :smallsmile:

LaZodiac

2018-11-20, 08:09 AM

Interesting that everyone else agrees and I am mistaken.

I genuinely believed that Carmilla was deliberately dropping examples of discrimination against female vampires (and herself, specifically) as her motivation, and that it would be shown later in the plot that she was using it as a form of manipulation - almost as if she were trying to ingratiate herself with Dracula by suggesting how she and his wife had been similarly mistreated - and also as her excuse when she later let other members of the council take the fall for her actions.

Apparently I read too much into it, though - she was just dropping her backstory and it turned out to be far less relevant to the immediate crowd.
I'm not sure if that is good writing (in that her motivations are more selfish, and thus more direct) or possibly a wasted opportunity to give her a Freudian excuse like everyone else seems to have - I don't think for a minute that anyone believes that her portrayal of killing her sire for being abusive is the entirety of the story, for example. :smallsmile:

I mean it could be both.

Carmilla could definitely be fighting against discrimination in their time, and ALSO just manipulating everything so she's king **** of vampire mountain. She can care about two things.

The Jack

2018-11-21, 12:15 AM

She was totally playing the game when she cried sexism.
Most of the mooks are male, a few of hers looked female, but generals counted many women among them.

Given immortality and varying degrees of super strength, i dont think vampire society can reasonably be very sexist, their women can be overwhelmingly more potent than their men.

Narkis

2018-11-21, 12:34 AM

Didn't she declare she was there to help Dracula in the same speech she decried sexism? I think it's safe to say she's not exactly a reliable source when it comes to her motives.

Devonix

2018-11-21, 02:05 AM

I didn't see her viewing Vampire society as sexist. It's simply that she fell under the sway of an old crazy man. And when she came to see Dracula, the leader of her species, the top of the food chain, what she found was another crazy old man.

She seemed legitimately shocked by Dracula, If he was on his game, I could see her following him without any real problems, it's just that she realized, Dracula was an actual threat to the vampire race. and yes he was a threat. Dracula wanted Vampires as well as humans simply gone.

Wraith

2018-11-21, 05:06 AM

She seemed legitimately shocked by Dracula, If he was on his game, I could see her following him without any real problems, it's just that she realized, Dracula was an actual threat to the vampire race. and yes he was a threat. Dracula wanted Vampires as well as humans simply gone.

I think that might be the difference between myself and the other members of this thread, that led me to misread(?) her in comparison - I don't think that I, at any point, believed that Carmilla was intending to be a loyal follower of Dracula. The conclusion I came to was that she intended to betray him from the moment that she arrived, and as the show went on she grew bolder and less subtle when she mistook Dracula's disinterest for weakness.

She arrived intending to be the Evil Vizier, whispering in his ear and manipulating him to her own ends; halfway through she realised that she could just take the reigns for herself and cut out the middle man if she got the crowd on her side and ousted him. The "sob stories" about her past and her being "marginalised" were crafted to appeal to his sense of honour and/or sympathy by comparing her to his mistreated wife, but later she realised that wasn't necessary and her true colours emerged.
Of course it all fell apart when it became apparently just how hilariously and ridiculously outmatched she and the rest of the generals were against Dracula's knowledge, magic and technology (Which all happened by accident because of Alucard et al's interference) and I might yet be proven wrong, but I think that's a clearer example of what I was interpreting.