Passive DMPC

[MommaGoose505]

Generally I avoid dmpc's, adding more workload during combat, having to converse with myself in social situations, and what have you.

My players have taken alot of interest in, well, for brevity's sake the guild stableboy. The PC's invested some resources and sent him to Paladin Camp, and it's about time for them to go pick him up.

I looking for a build with minimal resource management and decent survivability, that will add some minor boons to the party.

Human Paladin 2, is locked in due to the PC's choice. Right now I'm looking at pali-2/fighter-1/marshal-1 with combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip. Something I can just plop down and use as kind of a point defence turret.

He will probably be level 5 or 6 depending on where the PC's are when they finish this dungeon. Any thoughts on where to go next? Or any experience with a background dmpc?

No; ToB, ToM, MoI or psionics.

[Crake]

Have one of the players pick up leadership and take him as a cohort, and let them manage the character. Otherwise, tell the players that he appreciates their help, but his paladin duties require him to work elsewhere for his clergy, and he will do all he can to gather the money to pay them back for their aid.

[MommaGoose505]

I have a hard ban on Leadership, if I let one player take it, everyone will want it, then all the cohorts will want it, and the Bard will be stuck in the office doing payroll all day. I am also reticent to give up control of a NPC the players are particularly invested in, they make for useful tools.

I'm also considering swapping Cleric (Pelor) for Fighter. Taking Strength for enlarge and trading good for good devotion. Getting turn attempts for Divine Might down the road. Then take Marshal up to level three. DR 3 at level 5 for the whole party is a nice boon

[Crake]

I have a hard ban on Leadership, if I let one player take it, everyone will want it, then all the cohorts will want it, and the Bard will be stuck in the office doing payroll all day. I am also reticent to give up control of a NPC the players are particularly invested in, they make for useful tools.

I'm also considering swapping Cleric (Pelor) for Fighter. Taking Strength for enlarge and trading good for good devotion. Getting turn attempts for Divine Might down the road. Then take Marshal up to level three. DR 3 at level 5 for the whole party is a nice boon

Maybe instead of banning leadership change your stance on the feat. Rather than the feat being used to wish a cohort into existence, it's used to have an existing NPC become a cohort, exactly like this situation. People that take leadership before meeting a cohort they want don't just have the perfect cohort walk up to them and join them on a whim. This makes leadership a reactionary feat, rather than a preemptive feat. Find cohort you like -> take leadership, rather than take leadership -> find cohort you like.

Also, giving the player creative control over the cohort doesn't mean you have to give up all control of the cohort. The cohort still has thoughts and motivations beyond that of the player, and can be manipulated or driven by in game events in directions that the player may not want. That is the nature of him being an NPC, but you offload the work of designing a character to the player, and let that player have any glory the NPC achieves in battle, that way you don't have to worry about taking the spotlight, because it'll be one of the players.

[Pleh]

Well, you could go with Mounted Combat and have him hold back to use a crossbow and a lance. He only uses the lance when enemies target him. Otherwise he uses his mounts speed to always stay off the battle grid and plink enemies from the sidelines.

If a PC falls in combat, he spends his turn galloping in to rush them out of harm's way and lay on hands to stabilize them.

[Dekion]

I'm probably going to get some backlash for this, but I don't think DMPCs are bad if done correctly. I use them regularly, and they always become valuable members of the party...They don't make a lot of decisions, and they tend to stay in the background during social interactions with NPCs, but are quite viable in roleplay with the party as a sounding-board or in the middle of the wilderness and are excellent story material. And while they also add to the combat effectiveness of the party and are never as optimized or as well equipped as the PCs, they are a good charity for the PCs extra gear. But, the key is to remember that they should never guide the party directly or serve as a resource that trumps a PCs abilities. Your "stableboy become adventurer" is a great example of the right idea, in my opinion, and if done right, can supply you with a lot of material for the future in addition to a passive voice in the party. Remember that they have their own opinions, goals, and aspiration and should be played as such, just not overwhelmingly so.

[Raxxius]

Have him become influenced by a devil and slowly become more and more evil.

See if the players can spot or stop him before it's too late.

Else you have an antagonist with real emotional hooks.

[Quertus]

So, is this really a DMPC, or just an NPC?

You don't want to give up control of the NPC in general? That's fine. What about just in combat?

I had a group with massive charisma try to talk just about every NPC into joining their cause. There were probably twice as many NPCs as PCs in the party! I kept trying to get the NPCs to leave, but the players / PCs weren't having it.

So I ran the NPCs in "narrative" mode. Sometimes, this meant guesswork and average rolls; other times, it meant playing out the battle without the PCs beforehand, and just occasionally briefly narrating what they see the NPCs doing. Oh, turn 2, they see that the NPC Cleric is in trouble - if no one does anything, they see her go down on turn 4.

If you don't want to go that far, I think Pleh's suggestion was functionally pretty close in that direction.


I'm probably going to get some backlash for this, but I don't think DMPCs are bad if done correctly.

Probably. But I will agree with you.

[Jay R]

My recommendation:
Don't call him a DMPC. Call him, and think of him, as an NPC.

[MommaGoose505]

Thanks for all the suggestions sofar.

My group has kind of irregular attendence, and the holiday season isn't going to help. This can lead to some unusual group composition, last session was two Bards and a Thri-kreen Ninja. So having a filler character to bring in or out when needed part of my goal.

I figure the PC's can dictate most of his tactics, just moreso in character. "Hold that choke point!" "Keep those zombies off the orphans!"

That's why I am leaning towards a reach weapon tripper type build, to give the party a tactical tool more geared to defense and small area control.

[J-H]

Offer the players the chance to each submit their own build for him.
Select the best option, or narrow it to two finalists and let them vote.

[LuminousWarrior]

Does your party have a decent buffer/healer? If not, make him a cleric. If they do, make him a cleric anyway. You can never go wrong with more support, and by making him focus on that the PCs will be able to keep the spotlight.

[MommaGoose505]

Right now, if everyone shows up (rarely have more than four) the party consists of: Thri-kreen Ninja crit fisher (using PF crit deck so some fun debuff/riders), DW Kobold Druid with two fleshrakers, Gnome Bard (going Sublime Chord, illusion focused), Half Elf Bard ( DFI, newest player, still a lil bit shakey on mechanics), Daring Outlaw Swashbuckler, and what was a Healbot Cleric who died, comming back with either a reworked Cleric or an arcane blaster type.

So buffing is pretty well covered, as is out if combat healing. I don't want to give him more than one level of Cleric, becuase I rather not deal with spell management and as I have him laid out right now Wisdom is his lowest stat (rolled: 16, 14, 14, 14, 11, 18).

As things are it's not unusual for me to have 10+ different counters going simultaneously, so any effects I would prefer to be passive always on type deals. On a side tangent if anyone has a good PnP system for tracking; buffs, debuffs, spell duration, etc. I would appreciate some insight.

[the_david]

He found he wasn't a good fit for being a paladin, and instead became a monk. He even took a vow of silence.

And then he turns on the party because he's actually a monastic assassin. The vow of silence is part of his training. He joined the party so he could kill the person they were protecting.

Okay, okay. That's how I would play a DMPC. Don't do this. The players were expecting a paladin, not an assassin.

[Red Fel]

Agreeing with those who say "NPC, not DMPC."

First of all, I'm not opposed to DMPCs on principle. I think they have a lot of issues and a lot of ways to go horribly wrong, but they can be done well. It's a razor's edge, though.

But that said, this is an NPC. An NPC into whom the PCs invested time and resources, but an NPC nonetheless.

There are two angles I see the players pursuing with this, though:

1. Pure altruism. They like this NPC so they wanted to do something nice. That's nice. PCs do nice things for NPCs all the time. That's basically their job. Kill some kobolds for that farmer. Find a bauble for that witch. Save a princess for that king. That doesn't mean the NPC suddenly belongs to the party. There's some gratitude, maybe a reward, but there's no expectation of gaining a party member from that.

2. They want a free minion. This is a hard "no" from me. If you want a resource - whether it's a weapon, a feat, or a minion - you have to pay the appropriate cost. In this case, cohorts cost feats. That's how they work. If the players came into this thinking, "Let's turn the stableboy into a Paladin so that we can have a Paladin in the party," my response is, "No. Roll a Paladin or take a feat."

Bottom line, you say you avoid DMPCs. I see no reason to change your position in this case.

[Quertus]

if anyone has a good PnP system for tracking; buffs, debuffs, spell duration, etc. I would appreciate some insight.

Hand out Persist for free. It makes tracking buffs easy.

Alternately, Require Persist for all buffs. You've already banned Leadership to make your life easy, ban temporary buffs, too.