Strongest single class (no multiclass) builds in 5e

[Benny89]

Hi,

So if we take out multiclasses, what kind of builds are most broken in DnD 5e?

From experience I know three:

1. Fighter Battlemaster with Hand Crossbow with Xbow Expert and Sharpshooter with Archery fighting style. This allows for riddiculous attacks per round for huge burst damage. Best is with 16 dex (+3) and Archery style (+2) you offset Sharpshooter -5 right off the bat (level 4). With 20 Dex and precision strikes you actually attack with bonus. Probably highest DPR in game. With action surge you can do 7 attacks per round at lvl 11.

You can take later Magic Innate (Warlock) for hex.

2. Moon Druid - well, what can I say- you have so much HP and healing that you are pretty much unkillable most of the time. What could kill you will wipe the rest of the party anyway. It falls behind in late levels but it you can have effective HP of I think 500-700 and heal for ridiculous amounts of hp.

3. Fighter Battlemaster Half-Orc with PAM, GWM and Sentinel. Not only great burst damage and DPR + incredible control of enemies thanks to PAM and manouvers.


What would be your pick for strongest single class builds?

[nickl_2000]

Yuan Ti Lore Bard - Immune to poison, darkvision, +2 to charisma, Magic Resistance, 3 languages, and innate spellcasting with a damaging cantrip. Then you take Lore Bard who gets a silly amount of skills and expertise, Magic Secrets to be able to cast pretty much anything you like (wish), and all kinds of other goodies.

[ProsecutorGodot]

If you want the literal answer: Barbarian. Your capstone lets you have a strength score of up to 24 without magic items.

If you want actual answers: Fighters, Paladins and Druids have some of the strongest and most versatile abilities in the game. As far as Spellcasting is concerned, most are best done as a multiclass (opinion) but Wizards edge out Sorcerers in terms of damage, Bard's edge out both in terms of control (also opinion).

Realistically, every class has a powerful build that can work without multiclassing into high levels... Except Rangers. Ranger's don't become particularly good at anything without multiclassing.

Here's an example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest) of one of my favorite single class character builds, the Conquest Paladin. Credit to Legimus for the useful guide.

[Zanthy1]

Paladin, Wizard, Druid are my top 3, Barbarian and Fighter make the top 5.

Personally top is Paladin, cause that smite is terrifying and their capstones rule. So Paladin 1, either Wizard or Druid 2 and 3, followed by Fighter or Barbarian at 4 and 5.

[MidgetMarine]

Apart from the others currently mentioned, I think Deep Gnome Abjurer Wizard with the Svirfneblin Magic feat is an incredibly powerful single-class chassis that results in an oppressively powerful anti-Mage full progression caster.

[Benny89]

Paladin, Wizard, Druid are my top 3, Barbarian and Fighter make the top 5.

Personally top is Paladin, cause that smite is terrifying and their capstones rule. So Paladin 1, either Wizard or Druid 2 and 3, followed by Fighter or Barbarian at 4 and 5.

I still think in terms of DPR Hand Crossbow Fighter > Paladin, but I can't deny that Paladin brings also big utilities for others and in melee he is probably stronger than PAM Fighter.

But that 120ft DPR of Hand Crossbow Fighter.... dam....

[Benny89]

Apart from the others currently mentioned, I think Deep Gnome Abjurer Wizard with the Svirfneblin Magic feat is an incredibly powerful single-class chassis that results in an oppressively powerful anti-Mage full progression caster.

Interesting. Can you elaborate on that?

[MThurston]

Rogue assassin with poison. 13d6 sneak attack and if they get initiative with a surprise round they are nasty. 700+ damage first shot.

[ImproperJustice]

Cleric.

Auto-succeed on Divine Intervention at level 20 and ask for whatever you need to overcome what’s in front of you.


On a more general answer:
Paladin is just a solid class all around with great defense, offense, healing, magic and other coolness.

[Brutalitops]

Rogue assassin with poison. 13d6 sneak attack and if they get initiative with a surprise round they are nasty. 700+ damage first shot.


FYI poison damage does not double on a crit. Still a ludicrously powerful ability just not that powerful

[Mr.Spastic]

In terms of on command damage, I think everybody has forgotten the hexblade warlock. If your an Aasimar that is even better.

Agonizing blast invocation, stacked with hex, hexblade's curse, and protection Aasimar adding level to one hit per turn.

If you hit at least once at level five you deal 1d10+1d6(hex)+3(hexblade)+5(Aasimar)

At higher levels your hex lasts for a whole day and you can get some wicked invocations like forceful blast and lancing blast. You basically wield the world greatest magic heavy crossbow. Plus invocations like invisibility at will and summon elementals. Pair that with tome for extra cantrips and basically every ritual spell and your golden. Or go chain to get a really sneaky familiar(I personally like sprite for at will invisibility). I would stay away from pact of the blade if you want the best warlock.

All in all the warlock is a powerful and versatile single class pick.

[Wub]

Paladin has saving throw aura, which once you've gotten used to is hard to live without. So many monsters have important saving-throw abilities. Stack spellcasting and burst damage, and the paladin is one of the most self-sufficient classes in the game.

My other contender would be gnomish EK, since they can tank spells unlike most other heavies and can supplement their generic fighter skills with spells. It ain't flashy on paper, but it works wonders if you're smart about it. Int/dex also gives you access to a larger skill-pool, which can be much more important than base DPS.

[Vorpalchicken]

Wizard. But stand next to a Paladin

[Dudewithknives]

Lore bard:

Cherry pick 2 spells of level 3 or less, 2 more of level 5 or less, 2 more of level 7 or less, and 2 more of level 9 or less.
Full caster, D8 hd, best skills in the game, super buffing, and access to instruments of the bards which are SUPER amazing.

Does not get much better than that.

Or if you just mean level 20 only, Moon Druid. Good luck ever stopping that guy.

[BobZan]

Dex Paladin

[KorvinStarmast]

So if we take out multiclasses, what kind of builds are most broken in DnD 5e? None of them. The use of the term "broken" for D&D 5e is misplaced.

Cleric. Auto-succeed on Divine Intervention at level 20 and ask for whatever you need to overcome what’s in front of you.
Once every seven days.

If your deity intervenes, you can’t use this feature again for 7 days. Otherwise, you can use it again after you finish a long rest. At 20th level, your call for intervention succeeds automatically, no roll required. Still, a nice feature.

The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate. Maybe not the I Win button you describe, but still nice.
On a more general answer: Paladin is just a solid class all around with great defense, offense, healing, magic and other coolness. Yeah, Paladin is well rounded.

[Wub]

None of them.

This is fairly true. It's much more important to understand how to use your character than to find the paladin best class. I once built a land druid for a total noob who'd never played 5e, (my mom), and she was insanely powerful compared to her more senior teammates because she had well-allocated stats and I had taught her the ins and outs of her spell list. (Spam lightning.)

[MThurston]

In terms of on command damage, I think everybody has forgotten the hexblade warlock. If your an Aasimar that is even better.

Agonizing blast invocation, stacked with hex, hexblade's curse, and protection Aasimar adding level to one hit per turn.

If you hit at least once at level five you deal 1d10+1d6(hex)+3(hexblade)+5(Aasimar)

At higher levels your hex lasts for a whole day and you can get some wicked invocations like forceful blast and lancing blast. You basically wield the world greatest magic heavy crossbow. Plus invocations like invisibility at will and summon elementals. Pair that with tome for extra cantrips and basically every ritual spell and your golden. Or go chain to get a really sneaky familiar(I personally like sprite for at will invisibility). I would stay away from pact of the blade if you want the best warlock.

All in all the warlock is a powerful and versatile single class pick.

You can do both curses at the same time. Both require concentration.

[MThurston]

Damage for the assassin rogue is on average without poison 105 HPs.

26d6 sneak attack, 2d8 rapier, +5 Dex.

Give him a dagger and it's another 2d4.

With Death Strike you double that damage on a missed DC19 vs Con.

Without poison that is 210 HPs.

Poison adds 12d6 so you are looking at another 42 damage and 84 if Death Strike hits. If both weapons hit you are looking at 341 damage on average. Max damage of 498 HPs with one shot and 578 max hit with both weapons.

D12 max hit die with +5 Con and Toughness your max HPs is a 400 HPs. Using The standards UP rules it's 15 per level. So that is 300.

[Mr.Spastic]

You can do both curses at the same time. Both require concentration.

I think you meant can't. But hexblade's curse does not require concentration.

[GlenSmash!]

15+ Aasimar Zealot can fight for 10 straight rounds regardless of whether they have any hitpoints or failed all 3 death saves, then heal themselves while still raging to stay alive.

It's not OP by any means but is pretty neat and certainly unique.

[BobZan]

Damage for the assassin rogue is on average without poison 105 HPs.

26d6 sneak attack, 2d8 rapier, +5 Dex.

Give him a dagger and it's another 2d4.

With Death Strike you double that damage on a missed DC19 vs Con.

Without poison that is 210 HPs.

Poison adds 12d6 so you are looking at another 42 damage and 84 if Death Strike hits. If both weapons hit you are looking at 341 damage on average. Max damage of 498 HPs with one shot and 578 max hit with both weapons.

D12 max hit die with +5 Con and Toughness your max HPs is a 400 HPs. Using The standards UP rules it's 15 per level. So that is 300.

You don't double poison damage. And that's not the average damage, that's the 1-2 hit during surprise rounds. Unless you're autocritin' every round.

[Ganymede]

I don't understand how those are so broken. They both look equally inept at dealing with nobles at a dinner party, working their way through a trap filled tomb, and infiltrating the Zhentarim network while posing as assassins.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You can do both curses at the same time. Both require concentration.

I'm assuming you mean "can't" since you say that Hexblades Curse and Hex both require concentration (again assuming those are what you mean by "curses")

If that is what you meant, you're incorrect, Hexblades Curse is not a concentration effect.


Damage for the assassin rogue is on average without poison 105 HPs.

26d6 sneak attack, 2d8 rapier, +5 Dex.

Give him a dagger and it's another 2d4.

With Death Strike you double that damage on a missed DC19 vs Con.

Without poison that is 210 HPs.

Poison adds 12d6 so you are looking at another 42 damage and 84 if Death Strike hits. If both weapons hit you are looking at 341 damage on average. Max damage of 498 HPs with one shot and 578 max hit with both weapons.

I don't know how a Rogue with the Assassin subclass is dealing 13d6 sneak attack, the only Rogue Subclass that can deal higher than the 10d6 listed on the table at level 20 is Inquisitive. The autocrit also relies on the target being surprised, which can only happen on the first round of combat.

Assuming the target fails 4 DC19 Con saves (1 for each attack made to proc Death Strike and 1 for each application of poison) and is surprised, striking with a Rapier and Dagger (don't know why, he would need dual wielder to do this to begin with so he could be using two Rapiers instead, whatever) with two vials of purple wyrm poison applied:
-2d8+5 (14) Rapier Strike
-20d6 (70) Sneak Attack
-12d6 (42) Purple Wyrm Poison
-2d4+5 (7) Dagger Strike
-12d6 (42) Purple Wyrm Poison 2
-Purple Wyrm Poison is not doubled by Death Strike either, for the same reason that Critical Hits don't double it. The poison damage is caused by a failed save, not your attack.

This makes the total average damage 266. Still a ridiculous amount of damage in a single hit, however unlikely it is.

Damage numbers aside, Purple Wyrm Poison is very expensive and you're going to go broke pretty quick if you're using it regularly.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm gonna throw my hat in:

Life Cleric. Why? Maximum HP rolls on all healing spells, bonus to healing equal to 2+spell level, heals 2+spell level to yourself whenever you heal an ally, plus heavy armor, plus 2d8 weapon damage each turn.

A spell like Mass Healing Word, with a +5 Wisdom modifier, would heal 5+4+3+2 health (14) health on 6 targets, healing an additional 5 HP to you, as a bonus action, for a 3rd level spell. If more juice is needed, Mass Cure Wounds would heal 36 health to your team for a level 5 spell and an action, or bump up the level for an additional 9 HP per level increase.

That's the subclass stuff. The main thing is that you're a full caster with heavy armor, which other options (like Paladin) don't get. And that's not including Divine Intervention.

[Dudewithknives]

I don't understand how those are so broken. They both look equally inept at dealing with nobles at a dinner party, working their way through a trap filled tomb, and infiltrating the Zhentarim network while posing as assassins.

As I pointed out, the lore bard can do every bit of that.

The do everything in the game well.

Half Elf Lore Bard level 10:

10 skill trainings, best in the game or tied with a scout rogue.
4 with expertise
Amazing social skills and no reason to carry a real weapon if you don't have to.
If you do want to, steal swift quiver at 10 and fire 3 shots a turn.
Or just use magical secrets to steal Eldritch Blast, no cha to damage but it is still great at will damage.
Light armor always help, or cast mage armor.
Full casting class with the best class specific magic items in the game.
Cutting words as an "oh crap" button.

Or you could go valor bard and do most of that but get an extra attack, medium armor, and shields.

Most people lable, "most powerful" as able to cause the most damage in one round.

Most of those builds are only good for that one thing though.

[nickl_2000]

Well Benny, you have gotten 24 replies with about 15 different answers. Having played D&D since before it had a number (AD&D), I've found 5e to be the best balanced edition created. Find a concept you like, and run with it and have fun.

[Mr.Spastic]

Well Benny, you have gotten 24 replies with about 15 different answers. Having played D&D since before it had a number (AD&D), I've found 5e to be the best balanced edition created. Find a concept you like, and run with it and have fun.

That is probably the best response.

That aside the strongest class is Moon Druid. At level twenty you have infinite elemental wild shapes.

[Whit]

Your missing key points. It can all depend on lvl as well what’s around. Magic items etc.
Barbarian totum 1:2 damage, mass hit points. Grapple pinned no escape for most.
Bard. Basically a fighter spell caster. Cleric mage spells choice. Could be limited
Cleric. Tempest. Melee extra damage. Max damage lightning spell. Heals. Slow but can last.
Druid moon. Mass hit points and damaged based on lvl. Dinosaur.
Fighter archer sharpshooter if he can keep distance.
Fighter champion. Get that 4 attacks and better crit armor hit points
Monk. Quiv palm
Paladin hit points armor divine smite basic attacks. Smite on crit. Burst. Not to mention lvl 20 specials.
Ranger archery sharpshooter if keep distance plus spells.
1. Rogue assassin useless with backstab if no ally each turn. Except 1 first strike with alert. 2. swashbuckler no need of ally. Sneak attack each round and run away.
Sorcerer. Reduce saves cast your spells. While flying.
Warlock keep distance and hope u get hurl -hell and range
Wizard. Fly and cast spells.

[Citan]

Hi,

So if we take out multiclasses, what kind of builds are most broken in DnD 5e?

From experience I know three:

1. Fighter Battlemaster with Hand Crossbow with Xbow Expert and Sharpshooter with Archery fighting style. This allows for riddiculous attacks per round for huge burst damage. Best is with 16 dex (+3) and Archery style (+2) you offset Sharpshooter -5 right off the bat (level 4). With 20 Dex and precision strikes you actually attack with bonus. Probably highest DPR in game. With action surge you can do 7 attacks per round at lvl 11.

You can take later Magic Innate (Warlock) for hex.

2. Moon Druid - well, what can I say- you have so much HP and healing that you are pretty much unkillable most of the time. What could kill you will wipe the rest of the party anyway. It falls behind in late levels but it you can have effective HP of I think 500-700 and heal for ridiculous amounts of hp.

3. Fighter Battlemaster Half-Orc with PAM, GWM and Sentinel. Not only great burst damage and DPR + incredible control of enemies thanks to PAM and manouvers.


What would be your pick for strongest single class builds?
Hi! I'll presume you're speaking of level 20 only (because ratings would wildly change at different levels).

Strongest "overall"? Moon Druid, no questions asked.
The largest spell selection of any caster in practice, the most varied, plus the fact you get "auto-subtle" on most spells you can cast and infinite Wild Shaping makes you by far the closest to a god.

Shortly behind would be Wizard (any really, although Diviner does get a great edge in meta world manipulation): this class has the largest number of "planning long-term" spells (buffs, traps, safety nets etc) so provided you can play your character several years, there is no reason why you wouldn't expand your power and search&find a vast number of extra spells either directly or through hirelings.
Sure, out of your safe place, you're much less resilient than a Moon Druid. But why would you leave it in the first place, except to go to another? :) Normally at level 20 you have hordes of minions and allied factions to do your work for you so you can focus on unveiling the true nature of magic. ;)

Not too far behind would stand side by side Sorcerer (at least some builds, like Divine Soul with Subtle) and Paladin (especially Ancients and Conquest): first has access to some of the best spells in all categories, and can Wish whatever he needs on any given day. The latter boasts extremely strong resilience overall, a varied enough spell list to have things to spend slots on, and a few impressive features to tack on that.

For "sustainable nova", Assassin is probably in the top 3, or maybe at the top? You need to set up an ambush, so it's not sustainable in that regard, but apart from that, you can use it as many times a day as you need.

Hexblade Blade Warlocks are probably not too far behind, with a "short-rest based" sustainable nova (Shadow Blade + Booming Blade on melee, Banishing Smite on ranged, either way tacking Eldricht Smite on top).
Whispers Bard (same as Hexblade for melee and ranged) are more or less equal although in a different manner.

For sustainable round per round damage, Bladesinger Wizards, Hexblade Warlocks and Swords Bards can easily crush Fighters, unless you run in a *very* long day.
All can play with upcast Shadow Blade, Greater Invisibility to up their damage reliably, or Hold Person/Monster for auto crits in melee, Warlocks get great blasting for ranged attacks while Bards could use Swift Quiver, Bladesinger could have a Simulacrum or a Familiar with ring cast Haste then hide away while he sustains another buff (aforementioned or Tenser's Transformation).
And Wizards and Bards can equally secure short rests thanks to Rope Trick, Catnap and Leomund's Tiny Hut.

For endurance contest at level 20, Barbarians, Paladins, Monks, Fighters are the kings per essence, while Rogue can easily stack a Healer feat to compensate the lack of self-healing or resilience. Unless you get days with no rest at all, which seriously breaks Fighters (no Action Surge, no Second Wind) and Monks (choose between defense -Empty Body- or offense -for one round-).
(That said for solo characters, but normally you're in party ;)).

(Note: evaluation on the fly, very quick and I'm tired, so there are probably many things i'm missing in classes ;))

[KorvinStarmast]

Strongest single class (no multiclass) builds in 5e
This game is designed around a party of 3-5 adventurers.
It is not a CRPG where you try to solo the adventure.

[Wub]

I looked up moon druid capstone because everyone kept mentioning it as the best class, and this is what I got for preliminary research: everybody at level 20 is scary dangerous and has whack powers. A level 20 cleric could literally just ask their patron deity to get the bear to stop messing with them.
Moon druid is great at what it does, and that's act as a super-resilient caster-tank. But they still have limitations, like (usually) lackluster damage output and a smaller spell-pool than arcane casters. And while level 18-20 is wild has some powerful abilities, druids' power level takes a noticeable dip for a long time after elemental wildshape. (11-17)

[Mr.Spastic]

I looked up moon druid capstone because everyone kept mentioning it as the best class, and this is what I got for preliminary research: everybody at level 20 is scary dangerous and has whack powers. A level 20 cleric could literally just ask their patron deity to get the bear to stop messing with them.
Moon druid is great at what it does, and that's act as a super-resilient caster-tank. But they still have limitations, like (usually) lackluster damage output and a smaller spell-pool than arcane casters. And while level 18-20 is wild has some powerful abilities, druids' power level takes a noticeable dip for a long time after elemental wildshape. (11-17)

The specific combo that makes moon druid the best is the druid capstone. Infinite Wild Shape. With this combo you can refresh your wild shape form every turn. This is effectively a 100 point heal, as a bonus action, every turn. Plus you can cast crazy spells like plane shift and polymorph.

[Mr.Spastic]

Also the cleric's Divine intervention is stated that it should be comparable to a spell effect. So at the maximum I would allow ninth level spell for free.

[Citan]

I looked up moon druid capstone because everyone kept mentioning it as the best class, and this is what I got for preliminary research: everybody at level 20 is scary dangerous and has whack powers. A level 20 cleric could literally just ask their patron deity to get the bear to stop messing with them.
Moon druid is great at what it does, and that's act as a super-resilient caster-tank. But they still have limitations, like (usually) lackluster damage output and a smaller spell-pool than arcane casters. And while level 18-20 is wild has some powerful abilities, druids' power level takes a noticeable dip for a long time after elemental wildshape. (11-17)
Hmm smaller spell-pool? Last time I checked, Druids had something like ~130 spells to play with right at the tip of their fingers.
So we should rejoice they are missing some of the best spells in each level, because otherwise nobody would play any other casters (as far as spells go).

The only one that could pretend reaching and ultimately beat him would be a Wizard, but that's provided that Wizard invests time and resources into finding/trading/stealing new spells from various sources (read: that your DM invests enough in a world setting to let you make your hole in it, and/or he gives you plenty of chances to loot extra spells). :)

And stomping a "caster-tank" stamp on Druid is very underselling. Druid can...
- *cast several spells unnoticed when Wild Shaped (no consumable component? Auto-subtle spell means no way any caster can Counterspell you)*.
- *sustain concentration on any spell cast before Wild Shaping*
- *Wild Shape unlimited number of times*.

This is not just about Moon Druid, mind you. Any Druid is absolutely rocking everyone else because he can simply cast spells then disappear by burrowing/flying away/hiding inside environment or among other animals, and he can also change every 6 seconds so it's very easy to change tracks. Plus many of their spells have a unusually great range. :)

And a Druid, unless being Evil towards animals, should have no trouble befriending all of Nature's creatures and plants. So in miles around where he lives, he has potential armies to lift (well, potential is a right word though: hiring animals for petty thieving, doing chores or scouting is easy. Convincing animals to risk their life? That would not be easy in my view, even for a Druid, unless it's also directly beneficial for them).

Know that a Druid has you in sights: you'll come to fear even a simple mosquito. Or maybe that shop's cat, that you come across everyday that seems to spend all day long sleeping, may be on Druid's orders. Or maybe the Druid himself here trying to ruin your sanity.

That's the beauty of the Druid. You can easily give the impression to be nowhere and everywhere at once because it's so easy for you to change not only appearance, but complete shape, and only a caster with sufficient means (Detect Magic at close range, possibly Scrying provided enough knowledge) could find and identify you.

The only one that could compete in that "I manipulate world yet it's hard to detect I'm even doing anything" is a specific Divine Soul Sorcerer with Subtle and a dedicated list of spells and skills towards people manipulation or event anticipation.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Also the cleric's Divine intervention is stated that it should be comparable to a spell effect. So at the maximum I would allow ninth level spell for free.

It only states that a spell would be appropriate, not that it can only be comparable to a spell.

As powerful as this effect is, it's not going to happen often and you should make plans to really let it be impactful when it does happen. Let it be memorable instead of that one time I got to cast mass heal for free.

[Wub]

But you can use it to negate the druid's wildshape, or phone a righteous friend.

Druid spells are also more utility-oriented and built around whittling enemies rather than direct damage to take advantage of wildshape. They also don't have counterspell or any variant on it, and would be devastated by something like an antimagic field without the help of a mage.

*edit: I never said druids weren't good. I'm saying that they have downsides like every class does.

[sithlordnergal]

I looked up moon druid capstone because everyone kept mentioning it as the best class, and this is what I got for preliminary research: everybody at level 20 is scary dangerous and has whack powers. A level 20 cleric could literally just ask their patron deity to get the bear to stop messing with them.
Moon druid is great at what it does, and that's act as a super-resilient caster-tank. But they still have limitations, like (usually) lackluster damage output and a smaller spell-pool than arcane casters. And while level 18-20 is wild has some powerful abilities, druids' power level takes a noticeable dip for a long time after elemental wildshape. (11-17)

So,you may want to take a closer look at that Moon Druid capstone, cause you may be underestimating it. I'll admit, Druids do not do massive bursts of damage at once. Moon Druids specialize in chip damage, battlefield control, and tanking. While that may seem weak against powerhouses like a Wizard or Paladin, it actually pays off in longer battles. The longer a battle lasts, the more effective the Druid is. Also, while a Moon Druid may have lackluster damage, they don't need it. The only way you will kill a Moon Druid is to either:

-Burn through all their Temp Animal HP and Druid HP all at once, before they can heal themselves and change back into Elemental Form

or

- Use one of the very few instant death effects, such as Power Word Kill, Quivering Palm, or get lucky with Disintegrate

If you fail either of those, the Druid is back to where he was before, sans a spell slot that had been used for healing, while you're missing whatever you used to knock them out of Wild Shape in the first place. They will out last you.

As for your Divine Intervention, unless the DM is being very generous, you really only get Cleric spells or a Divine Domain ability. As far as I can see, there are no instant death divine spells. And your ability can be used once a week, where as the Druid's can be used an unlimited number of times.


EDIT: You are correct that Moon Druids do have some disadvantages at level 20. But considering how few and far between those disadvantages are, they quickly become a moot point. Moon Druids at level 20 can generally pass any exploration or combat section you can throw at them. While they may be poor at the social pillar of play, they can excel at the other two. And while I do get that they lack burst damage...they don't really need to care about that. Nine times out of ten, a level 20 Moon Druid can and will out last any foe they face.

[skaddix]

Are you doing 100 points of damage or more to the Druid every turn? If no then good luck beating the level 20 Moon Druid who will easily outlast most foes.

[Wub]

Antimgic field. No more wildshape.

[sithlordnergal]

Antimgic field. No more wildshape.

...that would do it...I mean, you can't cast spells either, but that will do it.

[Wub]

...that would do it...I mean, you can't cast spells either, but that will do it.

And then you hack them to death with your two levels of fighter! (I kid.)

Point is, wildshape is not a panacea that deflects all attacks. There are limitations to it, and limitations to the druid. Are they hilariously survivable? Yes. Do they have great utility and a nice spell list? Yes. But they're still mortal, and can still be defeated by the clever use of spells and abilities. Especially since druids don't have the spells to get into a 'nope' fight with a wizard.

And my other point still stands: moon druids are great at level 20. But they also have a couple of noticeable low points between class features, so they're definitely not always the best class around.

[Jamesps]

...that would do it...I mean, you can't cast spells either, but that will do it.

If you're a thief that was probably the only spell you were going to cast anyways.

I'm not sure if it's best, but I think the most interesting to play would be a rogue (thief) with a satchel of spell scrolls dedicated to whatever the situation they thought they'd encounter. I think they're the only single class character that can "cast" two high level spells in the same round.

Add that to tremendous out of combat versatility and you could probably work your way around just about any situation that could come up. Being able to fight effectively in an antimagic aura you can cast yourself is one talent that very few other characters can bring to the table.

[Citan]

But you can use it to negate the druid's wildshape, or phone a righteous friend.

Druid spells are also more utility-oriented and built around whittling enemies rather than direct damage to take advantage of wildshape. They also don't have counterspell or any variant on it, and would be devastated by something like an antimagic field without the help of a mage.

*edit: I never said druids weren't good. I'm saying that they have downsides like every class does.
I don't really see where you got that Druid spells are more utility-oriented. Yeah, most of them deal less damage than other spells of same level, but that's because they all have a strong control component integrated, either movement-based, or view-based, or both.

As far as Counterspell goes, yeah, it means they can't prevent spells targeting them. But enemy has to... 1) Identify them (confer above). 2) Be able to see them (for 90% spells): confer above again.

As far as antimagic field goes...

Antimgic field. No more wildshape.


...that would do it...I mean, you can't cast spells either, but that will do it.
Let me check first: you are all talking about the 8th level Antimagic Field right?

Well... Then so what? Do you realize you're talking about a 10-feet radius sphere? That prevents yourself as a caster, and yourself only, to use all your abilities to attack and defend?

10 feet radius: in what way is that supposed to disturb the Druid? It's not like it's a sphere centered on him, it's centered on you.
You are either...

Forcing both of you into a fist fight, for which Druid is better armed against both Druid and Wizard. MUCH MUCH BETTER. Not only...
1. Compared to Druid, Wizard have lesser AC while Cleric or Bard would have as good or better. And no luck using Mage Armor or Shield.
2. Druid has better HP than Wizard (and possibly than Cleric if he focused on non-WIS spells to instead bump CON, although I wonder why a Moon would do that)...
But on top of that...
3. Whenever Druid needs to regain some HP he can just move out of the sphere, cast a Healing Words then head back. Or maybe simply move into a Healing Spirit not far away (because Antimagic does *NOT* break concentration).
4. If he wants to really break the fight, he can simply cast either...
- A spell that transforms natural terrain (Plant Growth, Erupting Earth) so sticking even through the Antimagic Field
- Or a spell that blocks view on a large enough area that Wizard will still have weakened perception (at least view) until his own turn comes and he moves out: a simple 2nd level Fog Cloud will do the trick nicely.
So basically your only winning chance in that situation is to have a reliable way to Grapple the Druid then just have each other bash heads, and hoping to be the one standing last.
Disclaimer: only the Bard has any hope of achieving that, because only one with Expertise and possibly Peerless Skill to compensate a probably low STR. And it also requires the Druid to be stupid enough to 1) not realize that risk and/or 2) still get inside without a backup plan (like honest real animal coming to grapple him away in case of or trying to break Wizard grapple another way).

OR Forcing both of you into a ranged weapon fight.
Which is basically the same except even worse because all the previous still applies, or Druid could Polymorph himself into a Giant Ape, or he could conjure lots of Sprites to gang up on you with arrows (unless DM goes as far as considering that ammunition fired by conjuration is also conjuration, which just means you'd have a carry animal with quivers at the ready).
Of course, other casters may use Animate Dead (if not against their alignemnt), but the intent of Antimagic per tweets is that caster in field does not control the spell. A DM following those could then reasonably consider that you cannot command the undeads while in antimagic field.

OR forcing you into a "fight by champions"
In which case all have a few tools, with Bard (Magic Secrets) and Wizard (some nice Conjure spells) being better armed, but you are still facing the one caster that has virtually unlimited HP and some of the largest AOE spells. Plus great conjuration spells, plus ability to speak (and probably persuade) any living animal around, plus Awaken spell for plants...
Which means basically the only way to win would be to have a conjuration grapple the Druid into the Antimagic field... At which instant it disappears.

--
Yeah, bring it on with your antimagic field it's clearly a winning tactic... For Druid XD

[djreynolds]

Might be crazy, but a warlock's repelling blast is awesome. Each ray can push 10ft, no save. With spell sniper you literally keep most creatures at bay.

This is from 2nd level on. Plain warlock is very good

[Citan]

Might be crazy, but a warlock's repelling blast is awesome. Each ray can push 10ft, no save. With spell sniper you literally keep most creatures at bay.

This is from 2nd level on. Plain warlock is very good
Yeah, especially paired with Lance of Lethargy, and a Plant Growth from Fey Patron. ;)

[Citan]

And then you hack them to death with your two levels of fighter! (I kid.)

Point is, wildshape is not a panacea that deflects all attacks. There are limitations to it, and limitations to the druid. Are they hilariously survivable? Yes. Do they have great utility and a nice spell list? Yes. But they're still mortal, and can still be defeated by the clever use of spells and abilities. Especially since druids don't have the spells to get into a 'nope' fight with a wizard.

And my other point still stands: moon druids are great at level 20. But they also have a couple of noticeable low points between class features, so they're definitely not always the best class around.
You are not really reading carefully are you? You should take the time. :)
OP was about "classes" not "archetypes".
And all Druid share most of the awesomeness. Moon just gets the "you probably can't ever kill me feature" against the most damaging effects.
But Shepherds are a very fearsome force too with the big boosts they give to their Conjurations (which they can subtle cast).
Land are the only one without awesome feature, but they compensate with a nice array of bonus spells at lower levels.
And as all other they get the "I can be an eagle, or a rat, or an ant, or a fish, you don't even perceive me but I'm gonna make your life a very sorry one before you even realize I was here".

The limitations about Wild Shape are very strong for most of a Druid's career, but once you get "partial Subtle" you're golden, and when you get "full Subtle and Unlimited Shapes" you're orichalcum. Moon or not.

[Wub]

I don't really see where you got that Druid spells are more utility-oriented. Yeah, most of them deal less damage than other spells of same level, but that's because they all have a strong control component integrated, either movement-based, or view-based, or both.

That's exactly what utility is, controlling the battlefield instead of dealing direct damage. Pretty much every druid spell has some kind of utility component.

The problem isn't 'who would win in an arena with just their underpants and a sword'. The problem is that there's ways to negate wildshape or pass through its extra health pool, like with the antimagic-scroll rogue or just plain focused fire. It makes you tanky, but it doesn't make you immortal.

...speaking of underpants, epic-level heroes tend to have a lot of magic artifacts and fancy trinkets. If you wanted to use your gear, you'd have to jury-rig it to fit your wildshape or come out of it temporarily to help your friends fight the BBEG.

[skaddix]

Well for one this is DnD caster are better off going battlefield control over blasting. Crack any caster guide and you get told blasting sucks.

Also you are acting like AMF last forever, it last 1 hr is centered on you and requires concentration. The Druid just needs to pick any form that flies wait out the field or try to disrupt concentration from range and then go back to pounding your face into the dirt.

[Citan]

That's exactly what utility is, controlling the battlefield instead of dealing direct damage. Pretty much every druid spell has some kind of utility component.

The problem isn't 'who would win in an arena with just their underpants and a sword'. The problem is that there's ways to negate wildshape or pass through its extra health pool, like with the antimagic-scroll rogue or just plain focused fire. It makes you tanky, but it doesn't make you immortal.

...speaking of underpants, epic-level heroes tend to have a lot of magic artifacts and fancy trinkets. If you wanted to use your gear, you'd have to jury-rig it to fit your wildshape or come out of it temporarily to help your friends fight the BBEG.
Well, we obviously have a different representation of what "utility spells" means. For me (and I daresay many people around here) utility is category for spells that are not directly offending people but rather, facilitating the other pillars (exploration / social).

And if you are bringing a Rogue tagging along the caster, why wouldn't the Druid do the same? Unless you are moving the goal post and make the Rogue to face the Druid alone, which does not help the argumentation really (I don't see ever a chance for Rogue to win this. Honest. Unless the Druid always stays in human form, boasts himself to everyone everyday so the world knows his face and name, and lives all alone in a small home without any creature around. And the Rogue is an Assassin, or maybe an Arcane Trickster).

And you're still yet again talking all only about Moon Druid's extra HP (because Wild Shaping as an action into CR 1 creature is certainly not a good use of level 20 Druid's abilities).
I hope this doesn't sound rude, but you really aren't reading. So let's be more blunt.
The whole point of Druids...
IS.
NOT.
ONLY.
MOON.
The point is: it's extremely hard to track, identify and trap ANY lvl 18-20 Druid with a minimum wits.
Scrying has a big bonus on save for the target unless the caster has already a good amount of information about him. And it targets Wisdom, Druid being proficient and (probably) good attribute into it.
Detect Magic is self, 30 feet around. It's an extremely limited way to detect. A Wild Shaped Druid, that saw you cast it (which he should unless you were not in view or you're a Subtle Sorcerer) can simply stay out of the range.
Dispel Magic as a decent or good range (depending on taste), but it would require a very comprehensive DM to accept that you "choose magical effect Wild Shape" without designating the creature source of that effect. Which brings to the previous point: identify which animal around is the Druid (if he's only perceivable. Not necessarily the case if high in the sky or burrowed).
And besides of those (or other means to detect/identify magic I certainly missed), only way to identify a Druid would be un-animal-ish behaviour, or a magic effect directly emanating from the Druid (like a cat throwing an Ice Knife. You should indeed be suspicious of such prowess^^).

[skaddix]

Druid doesn't need to see you cast it. A high level Druid should know the range of the spell and thus always stay outside of 30 feet when tracking unless going for the kill.

[Wub]

Yes, any character is very scary at level 20.

OP states character builds, as long as it's single class. Moon druid is a build.

Fog cloud doesn't deal direct damage, but it can be used in a fight. Damage spells can have utility components, like sleet storm.

And no, the rogue is the caster. I always thought thief was the weakest archetype, but UMD seems kinda cool now.

And again, this isn't theorydome, where two classes enter and only one leaves. You have to think about what the build is good at, and what it's bad at. Druids struggle in wizard wars because they lack counterspell options, while wizards could try to dispel the druid's concentration spells. There's also stuff like beholders that can negate magic, so it's important to think about what the druid could do in that situation.

And still yet to be refuted is that level gap between elemental shape and beast spells, which I think helps brings balance to the moon druid's crazy peaks.

[Kane0]

No single build is perfect, but if you're thinking a game from 1-20 then I'd go for something like a Bear Totem/Zealot Barbarian or Ancients/Conquest Paladin.
If you want sheer number of build choices, Warlock is my go-to.

Edit: Side-note, 'broken' is very hard to do in 5e. You just won't hit the level of play something like Pun-Pun sits at.

[Benny89]

No single build is perfect, but if you're thinking a game from 1-20 then I'd go for something like a Bear Totem/Zealot Barbarian or Ancients/Conquest Paladin.
If you want sheer number of build choices, Warlock is my go-to.

Edit: Side-note, 'broken' is very hard to do in 5e. You just won't hit the level of play something like Pun-Pun sits at.

From most people told me Bear Zealot loses hard in terms of both DPR and Nova vs Battlemaster PAM and vengeance Paladin PAM.

I know that "broken" is not as broken as it used to be in 3.5 however some (like Hand Crossbow Expert SS battlemaster) are just so good in their own category that vs average build they seem broken.

[Benny89]

Thanks for all the answers.

For damage what would you chose:

Vengeance PAM/GWM/Sentinel Paladin

or

PAM/GWM/Sentinel Battlemaster Fighter ?

Which one do you think would be better front line damage dealer?

[Kane0]

Do you want Burst or Sustained DPS?

Edit: Zealot Barbarian isn't the king of damage, it's the king of Not Staying Dead. Death Monks can pull the same stunt too, but is a more expensive trick for them.

[Citan]

Yes, any character is very scary at level 20.

OP states character builds, as long as it's single class. Moon druid is a build.

Fog cloud doesn't deal direct damage, but it can be used in a fight. Damage spells can have utility components, like sleet storm.

And no, the rogue is the caster. I always thought thief was the weakest archetype, but UMD seems kinda cool now.

And again, this isn't theorydome, where two classes enter and only one leaves. You have to think about what the build is good at, and what it's bad at. Druids struggle in wizard wars because they lack counterspell options, while wizards could try to dispel the druid's concentration spells. There's also stuff like beholders that can negate magic, so it's important to think about what the druid could do in that situation.

And still yet to be refuted is that level gap between elemental shape and beast spells, which I think helps brings balance to the moon druid's crazy peaks.
And, AGAIN. Druid is NOT only MOON.
And, AGAIN. Druid DO NOT struggle in your so-called "wizard wars".
YOU are the one in "theorydome".

Or, explain to me how is a Wizard supposed to find a Druid in his home region?
Really.
Please, explain to me how he would find one creature which he only knows it exists, that presumably spends a majority of time away from humans and civilization, and/or spend time in various wild shapes.
How are you supposed to do that?

Druid can cast spells on anyone without being idenfified, possibly even without being noticed. Wizard cannot, at least not without several shenanigans using third-party.
Mostly same with other casters. Only Cleric could hope several Divine Interventions to get information about Druid and even then it would be a long shot because Druid can change shape in the meantime, or instantly move to the other end of the Earth if he wants.
While Druid can have animals and plants of various sizes and nature spy for him.

That is why any smart Druid won't care much about Counterspell or adverse spells. Because information war is the one really important, and it's very hard for him to lose that one.

And, since you were talking about arena fight, why would Druid fear anything? Other than Moon Druid may be in trouble, especially if they lose Initiative.
Otherwise? Just burrow and escape/hide and plan.
Moon Druid? Win Initiative = 90% chance to win. Cast a spell that seems appropriate to the situation, Wild Shape as an Earth Elemental, burrow, plan your next move, maybe hide, pop up, cast spell, burrow again, repeat until victory.

[Wub]

If you don't already have some way to ensure good saves, go pally. Otherwise, fighter. Fighter is good, but needs support to shrug off disabling spells.

*edit: Find druid by casting detect magic and looking for the squirrel with the blinding aura of an archdruid. As far as I'm aware, druids don't have ways to block divination spells. That's a wizard thing. For wizards.

[Benny89]

Do you want Burst or Sustained DPS?

Edit: Zealot Barbarian isn't the king of damage, it's the king of Not Staying Dead. Death Monks can pull the same stunt too, but is a more expensive trick for them.

Hard to say. I know that Paladins can burst high with their 5d8 Smites but Fighters have more attacks per round + Action Surge....

Fighter only gains real advantage at 11 level when they get third attack. They also have Action Surge for 3 additional full attacks and they regain that on short rest.

However Paladins have their smites but they are regained only after long rest. Meaning that Fighter can use their full burst more often due to short rests vs Paladins.

The other thing is Battlemaster Precision Attack manouver- thanks to that Fighter can use GMW more as he can offset -5 to attack.

But Vengeance Paladin has access to oath spell that gives him advantage to attacks, also working great with GMW.

And when crit happens Paladin benefits much more due to double smite dice.

And advantage on attacks from Vengeance Oath I think can goe toe to toe with Precision Attacks of Battlemaster when using GWM feat to help that -5.

[Citan]

Thanks for all the answers.

For damage what would you chose:

Vengeance PAM/GWM/Sentinel Paladin

or

PAM/GWM/Sentinel Battlemaster Fighter ?

Which one do you think would be better front line damage dealer?
To be honest, I would pick neither of those for front line damage dealer. At least if you have someone to generate advantage.

I'd pick a Whispers Bard with Sentinel and Moderately Armored or Magic Initiate (Mage Armor). I'd use upcast Shadow Blade (sustainable as a 5th level spell most of the day), cast a Booming Blade and stack Whisper's bonus damage onto it.

If you want the best at reliable damage, I'd choose the Paladin but Devotion, because Sacred Weapon owns everything (except at stealthing of course).

[Kane0]

They are both fine options, you won't regret taking either one really. It basically comes down to personal choice and how many short rests you will be taking in your adventures, which you probably won't know until you sit down and play.

The only advice I can give is have fun with the character first and foremost, the mechanics will fall into place as you go.

[TerakasTaranath]

Paladin, Wizard, Druid are my top 3, Barbarian and Fighter make the top 5.

Personally top is Paladin, cause that smite is terrifying and their capstones rule. So Paladin 1, either Wizard or Druid 2 and 3, followed by Fighter or Barbarian at 4 and 5.

This. I totally agree with this. I'd put barbarian before fighter unless the group is willing to take a few short rests then fighter would be "better."

[Dudewithknives]

And, AGAIN. Druid is NOT only MOON.
And, AGAIN. Druid DO NOT struggle in your so-called "wizard wars".
YOU are the one in "theorydome".

Or, explain to me how is a Wizard supposed to find a Druid in his home region?
Really.
Please, explain to me how he would find one creature which he only knows it exists, that presumably spends a majority of time away from humans and civilization, and/or spend time in various wild shapes.
How are you supposed to do that?

Druid can cast spells on anyone without being idenfified, possibly even without being noticed. Wizard cannot, at least not without several shenanigans using third-party.
Mostly same with other casters. Only Cleric could hope several Divine Interventions to get information about Druid and even then it would be a long shot because Druid can change shape in the meantime, or instantly move to the other end of the Earth if he wants.
While Druid can have animals and plants of various sizes and nature spy for him.

That is why any smart Druid won't care much about Counterspell or adverse spells. Because information war is the one really important, and it's very hard for him to lose that one.

And, since you were talking about arena fight, why would Druid fear anything? Other than Moon Druid may be in trouble, especially if they lose Initiative.
Otherwise? Just burrow and escape/hide and plan.
Moon Druid? Win Initiative = 90% chance to win. Cast a spell that seems appropriate to the situation, Wild Shape as an Earth Elemental, burrow, plan your next move, maybe hide, pop up, cast spell, burrow again, repeat until victory.

Actually you can't counterspell a level 20 druid at all, they do not have to use Somatic or Verbal components, so nobody can "see them casting a spell" so no counterspell at all.

The reason people only talk about moon druids is because their ability to constantly wildshape is so much more broken than any of the other druid abilities.

[Dudewithknives]

This. I totally agree with this. I'd put barbarian before fighter unless the group is willing to take a few short rests then fighter would be "better."

I can't put Paladin that high simply because they are only a monster if you are in melee range with VERY few ranged abilities.

Conquest have some nice options for this.

Ex. No Paladin will EVER beat a wizard, unless they can win initiative and then blast them to death in one turn.
If the wizard gets to cast a spell the paladin auto-loses. Then again that is the case for just about any non-full caster, or even some full casters depending on their spells chosen

[Benny89]

I can't put Paladin that high simply because they are only a monster if you are in melee range with VERY few ranged abilities.

Conquest have some nice options for this.

Ex. No Paladin will EVER beat a wizard, unless they can win initiative and then blast them to death in one turn.
If the wizard gets to cast a spell the paladin auto-loses. Then again that is the case for just about any non-full caster, or even some full casters depending on their spells chosen

That can be said for casters too - they are only a monster if they are in RANGE.

For example no wizard will beat Hand Crossbow Battlemaster if they lose initiavite (which with 20 dex is highly possible) since they will be deleted with 7 range attacks for total 7d10 + 35 + 70 dmg (assuming Menencing Strike was not used or Trip or no magic weapon/items and no poisoned bolts used). That is 11 level. 9 attacks total in one round on 20 level. Unless wizard has time to cast spell he would always lose.

Now put that caster 1m from Vengeance Paladin and start fight. Now it's perfect scenario for Paladin. Now put that caster 60 ft away from Paladin - now perfect scenario for Wizard. It's not a rule, it's random.

And then there is always a grapple.... or stealth, or rouge assassin with invisibility etc.

DnD was never optimized for PvP scenario. At some point in game it's only a question who wins innitiavie = win in most scenarios in first round.

Preparation time, tactic, poisons, magic items, envoirment etc. it's all an unknown factors in combat.

As for Paladin vs Wizard- well if in melee they start first they can nova wizard for 2d10 + 10 + 20 + 12d8 plus 1d4 + 5 + 10 + 6d8 damage in one round. That is potentially... enough. Now if he CRITS on you- come on....

And if wizard in range can start first- same scenario. But no melee want to fight mage/archer at range and no archer/mage want to fight warriors in melee. So.... it comes to tactic.

[LudicSavant]

I can't put Paladin that high simply because they are only a monster if you are in melee range with VERY few ranged abilities.

Oh, ye of little faith. Allow me to instruct you in the ways of the optimized Paladin, so that ye may smite thine enemies from over 500 feet away.

Here's a single-class build for you that is strong at all 20 levels. Also, it's one of the things that can kill level 20 Moon Druids, Zealot Barbarians, etc.


Example Build: Ride of the Valkyries
https://wiki.plarium.com/images/4/4a/Pegasus.png

Here's one that's strong at all levels. Basically your goal is to become an ultramobile living ballistic missile which is nearly indestructible and has tons of party support.

Vengeance Paladin 20
VHuman / Cha 20, Belt of Giant Strength, PAM, Great Weapon Master, Mounted Combatant, Inspiring Leader (Order in which you get the feats is optional, though I'd take PAM first).

High level strategy:
You use "Find Greater Steed" to ride a pegasus. At the start of your adventuring day you give a heroic speech about how much divine vengeance will rain down upon your foes today (which gives everyone and their familiar +25 hp / short rest), and cast Death Ward, which affects you and your pegasus. In battle, you cast Haste, which gets shared to it. Your pegasus now moves around the battlefield at 540 feet per round using the move action, dash action, and hasted bonus action.

This means that you will be in range when you want to be in range, and will be out of range of most of the nasty spells that you don't want to be affected by. When you feel ready after having surveyed your opponents on the battlefield, you do a flyby, cast Vow of Enmity if they're not already smaller than your mount, and then dive bomb them from orbit, doing approximately this much (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujC7rxFVZ18) damage with your full nova combo. (It's about 200DPR with a big giant's belt and a nonmagical weapon against a 20 AC target. That's not "200 damage assuming hits" it's "200 DPR vs AC 20").

Your Pegasus has some surprisingly good durability, with a respectable 84 hit points, Death Ward (and the ability to bring them back up to full instantly using Lay on Hands if they get to that gate), Haste (which gets +2 AC and advantage on reflex saves), good saves (thanks to your aura plus decent base values), Advantage on Reflex saves, and Evasion. Even if people can get in range of your hit and run tactics they've got their work cut out for them to chew through both you and your mount. If they actually have the movement speed to get close to you, they even have to make a save to avoid becoming Frightened. Even if they do kill your mount, you have a hasted fly speed on your own which lasts an hour without concentration.

On top of all of this, you have access to things like Misty Step, Banishment, Scrying, Hold Monster, and Dimension Door with a full 20 casting stat. Lich king wants to use Forcecage? No problem, you've got Misty Step, the highest Charisma save around, and can move about 200 feet without your mount. You're still coming for them.

Lower level strategy:
At level 1 you're a martial with Polearm Master. What more do you want? You even have the versatility to use a quarterstaff-and-shield instead of a glaive if you like (though for the later levels of this build we'll be using a glaive).

By level 3, you've got Hunter's Mark, Vow of Enmity, 2-3 attacks in a round, GWF, and smites. You hit like a truck. You also have stuff like Bless and Lay of Hands which does a lot to help out your party (and also make it even harder to ignore you in favor of going after squishies). Command is nice too.

By level 6, you're a monster. You've got either Mounted Combatant or Great Weapon Master (which synergizes well with your ability easily grant Advantage) and Find Steed, which very importantly gives you a mount that can act independently from you. This means that not only does it boost your mobility substantially (a pretty big deal given how effective kiting is against many of 5e's martials), but it can knock your enemies prone and attack, granting a substantial DPR boost (unintelligent mounts can't do this). Most importantly of all, you've got That Aura.

At this point your non-smite DPR is something very scary and your critfishing smite DPR makes things disappear in a puff of holy vengeance. Add to that the fact that you're pretty durable against almost all forms of attack, and do a lot to support your party to boot, and you're in really good shape.

By level 9, you start sharing Haste to your steed, which makes them more durable, significantly faster, and more offensively deadly than they already are... not to mention buffing yourself while you're at it so that you're getting 4-5 polearm attacks a round, with advantage and all of your riders and possibly GWM. You also get Relentless Avenger, which synergizes neatly with PAM.

By level 13 you get a damage boost on all your attacks and Find Greater Steed, which is a big deal for reasons given in high level strategy. Also, unlike those multiclassing chumps, you've got 4 feats/ASIs by this point. You also should probably have found a strength item by this point barring an unusually low magic campaign (and you easily have the Charisma to just find one to buy using the XGtE magic item economy rules, if your game uses that).

___

Variants:
- Inspiring Leader and GWM are replaceable, especially if you have certain magic items.


Now this sounds amazing, I haven't considered find greater steed o.o


It's among the Paladin's best spells, because of the "spells are shared between you and your mount" thing, as well as the advantages of independently acting mounts, combined with the Paladin's ability to actually keep their mount surprisingly safe when built well.

Valkyrie's mount, for example, can reliably tank multiple Meteor Swarms to the face. Which is good, because Meteor Swarm is one of the things that has the range to actually hit it (1 mile).

How many Meteor Swarms does the Valkyrie's mount take to the face, you ask? Well, let's see. Thanks to Mounted Combatant it takes only half damage from Ref save effects, or no damage if it makes the save. It also has a +11 to Reflex saves, 84 hit points, and an extra death gate (because of Death Ward).

Even if you failed every save, it takes three meteor swarms to take out your pegasus (two to break 84 hp at half damage, and a third to get over the Death Ward gate to reduce it to zero hit points). But you don't fail every save. So let's say you are up against a DC 19 Meteor Swarm... your pegasus has about a 65% chance to make that save and take zero damage. This drops the DPR of meteor swarm down to about 24, which means it takes an average of four meteor swarms to break the Death Ward... and then you need to land another one on top of that (with a 35% chance of doing so) to take out the mount, let alone the actual Paladin. If, at any point in this process, the Paladin decides to use Lay on Hands, it can go right back up to full health. Honestly the mount might as well just read "functionally immune to reflex-based AoEs."

The Valkyrie's pegasus actually has pretty good saves across the board when sitting in the aura, at +9 strength, +9 Dexterity (11 when sharing Haste), +8 Constitution, +5 Intelligence, +9 Wisdom, and +8 Charisma. That's better than the majority of level 20 characters. It's also got a decent AC at 20 (or 22 when sharing haste) since you put barding on it.

The fact that your mount shares spells that target only you also means that when you Misty Step, it can also Misty Step. When you Tree Stride (as an ancients paladin) it also charges straight out of a tree with you.

[Benny89]

Oh, ye of little faith. Allow me to instruct you in the ways of the optimized Paladin, so that ye may smite thine enemies from over 500 feet away.

Here's a single-class build for you that is strong at all 20 levels. Also, it's one of the things that can kill level 20 Moon Druids, Zealot Barbarians, etc.

Wow..... you sold me....

Now I only need to pray my DM will alow Vuman.....

[Wub]

*picks jaw up off floor*

So, uh, yeah. Creative application of magic solves problems. I heavily prefer having some magic over straight damage output, because having another party member able to cast a concentration spell is always good. Straight damage builds are more situational, good for parties that can effectively support them with paladin aura or dispel magic.

[Dudewithknives]

Oh, ye of little faith. Allow me to instruct you in the ways of the optimized Paladin, so that ye may smite thine enemies from over 500 feet away.

Here's a single-class build for you that is strong at all 20 levels. Also, it's one of the things that can kill level 20 Moon Druids, Zealot Barbarians, etc.

Yeah, that is amazing and all, too bad it means nothing when on round one, a diviner who goes first just casts focecage, no save, no escape, no nothing you and your mount are now stuck in a cage with bars half an inch (maybe one inch don’t remember) wide.

You now get cantrip Poked to death for the next 8 hours, not even concentration either. If things get boring the wizard casts non-cantrips just to bug you. If you try to cast anything he just counterspells with his much larger spell pool. Heck he might even take a short rest to get a few back.

Same goes for any non-full caster.

Even if you try to ready an attack it won’t matter there are tons of ways to block vision and bomb through the wizards own darkness, fog cloud or whatever.

Forcecage is a spell that never should have seen print.

[Kane0]

Forcecage was explicitly mentioned in the post.

[Dudewithknives]

Forcecage was explicitly mentioned in the post.

Yes, and it doesn’t work, huge stack of counterspells.

Or just block line of sight.

[Kane0]

From 60 feet away? You’re game.

[LudicSavant]

Yes, and it doesn’t work

It works in the scenario described. You have changed the scenario to apparently being 1v1 (which means that I guess we're moving outside of the realm of practical optimization), with the Wizard going first and starting in Counterspell range (60 feet). In this different scenario, I'd suggest a different solution.

Anyways, let's say all of my usual scouting tactics have failed, and your Wizard ambushes me with Forcecage at close range (or at least, what qualifies as close range for someone who flies hundreds of feet every turn while exploring). And he sits there, ready to Counterspell me when I act. What do I do?

I stand behind something and cast Misty Step. Yep, that's it. That's all I had to do when this actually came up in game.

Mind, I can think of ways that a hypothetical build could stop that from happening, too. But if I was making this as a PvP build instead of a party support build I would have made a couple different decisions, including ones that would deal with that.

[Dudewithknives]

It works in the scenario described. You have changed the scenario to apparently being 1v1, with the Wizard going first and starting in Counterspell range (60 feet).

Incidentally, I actually had the Counterspell Ambush 1v1 thing happen to me. Guess how I beat it?

I hid behind my horse so he couldn't see me and cast Misty Step. The look on the Wizard's face was hilarious. :smalltongue:

A diviner wizard with 3 portent dice has a very high chance of going first, just screw their initiative or greatly boost your own.

Initiative is an ability check so portent dice work.

Sure, if captain insane movement can start further away than any normal fight ever will he can have a chance.

Also if the wizard wins initiative, which they should that puts the range at 90 because they can move 30 feet closer to the target.

Or they just use their one 9th level spell to use time stop,
Round 1 of time stop, teleport, d-door or whatever, into range, minimum roll is 2 rounds,
Round 2, force cage.
Game over.

Also no, forcecage does not effect you in any way so it is perfectly time stop friendly.

If there is a round 3, do whatever, darkness, a fog spell, whatever.

I just use wizard because of portent dice, bard and warlock can also do the same thing but warlock quite frankly suck vs anyone one on one, and while the bard can do all the spell fancyness they are not as safe with initiative

[Dudewithknives]

It works in the scenario described. You have changed the scenario to apparently being 1v1 (which means that I guess we're moving outside of the realm of practical optimization), with the Wizard going first and starting in Counterspell range (60 feet). In this different scenario, I'd suggest a different solution.

Anyways, let's say all of my usual scouting tactics have failed, and your Wizard ambushes me with Forcecage at close range (or at least, what qualifies as close range for someone who flies hundreds of feet every turn while exploring). And he sits there, ready to Counterspell me when I act. What do I do?

I stand behind something and cast Misty Step. Yep, that's it. That's all I had to do when this actually came up in game.

Mind, I can think of ways that a hypothetical build could stop that from happening, too. But if I was making this as a PvP build instead of a party support build I would have made a couple different decisions, including ones that would deal with that.

Stand behind what? In a force cage, your mount does not give full cover or anything.

Also this is a simple wizard with a few very common spells, and no gear at all.

[LudicSavant]

Stand behind what?

Anything that prevents the enemy from seeing the spell being cast will work. You can use a cardboard box like Solid Snake for all I care. You've got someone else in the area with you who can use the Use an Object action if you need extra help with the action economy or something.


Sure, if captain insane movement can start further away than any normal fight ever will he can have a chance.

I should note that long range starts shouldn't just be something you hope for, but something you actively seek to cause.

[Vessyra]

I have two neat little builds:
#1: banishment+ plane shift. While banished, the target is incapacitated. If you can acquire the tuning fork to the demiplane that the target is sent to, then a level 15 sorcerer can heightened banishment someone, then plane shift to them and spend the next 9 rounds shooting them up with magic, before spending a higher-level spell slot to pop back. It costs more spells than a normal plane shift, but it has a higher chance of connecting and you can be assured that they will die.
#2: the infinite lightning bolt. Level 13 halfling sorcerer with quicken spell and arcane gate. First, you use the crafting a magic item rules to make a javelin of lightning. Then, when you next face an enemy, you move into their space (halfling), cast quickened arcane gate (one arcane gate on either side of the target) and use your action to through the javelin, activating it's ability. It flies through the creature, throught the gate, then out the other gate and through the creature again and through the gate again coming out the other gate and going through the creature... etc. The javelin lightning bolt can go 120 feet (passing 24 times through a medium creature, 12 times through a large, and 8 times through a huge), doesn't harm the thrower, and does 4d6 per pass with a dex save to half.

I haven't used either plan yet for fear of falling rocks.

My favourite powerful build to play though is a blades bard with a one-level dip in rogue, along with the mage slayer feat, a headband of intellect and belt of giant strength. With spells from magical secrets, skill boosts from having six expertise, and stat boosts from items, this character is both extremely versatile and while also being extremely proficient in every trade, able to heal like a cleric and fight like a fighter and fireball like a wizard, while also having mage slayer to deal with pesky wizards. Overspecialisation tends to lead to being weak in everything, but I was able to make a character build that is powerful in whatever he attempts.

Edit: just realised that all of these builds pale in comparison to the might of the valkyrie

[Wub]

Based on ruling, it looks like it hits anybody in between the thrower and the throw-ee. Even if it is the thrower.

Also, hey up there with the theorydome! Few people get into 1v1s with a randomly-matched opponent. And even fewer are going to be doing it at level 20. If you want to criticize a build, talk about what it can or can't do in a party setting.

[Vessyra]

It says, "Excluding you and the target". So you'll have to take find familiar via a feat, or otherwise get someone or something to stand 120 feet away. After that, though, you're golden, as the slight floating and circular shape of the arcane gate and your small stature allows you a small amount of sight to the target 120 feet away, while the gate is still able to catch the lightning. You are excluded, while the enemy takes up to two dozen lightning strikes. If you use the Critical Role feat that lets you cast two spells in a round, you could cast extended lightning bolt in place of the javelin and be a storm sorcerer for immunity to lightning.

Still, this is all a moot point as I would take the Everything Bard or the Ride of the Valkyries over this any day.

[Wub]

From the awkward wording, it excludes the two people at either end of the ray. Anybody in the middle, regardless of having thrown it or not, should be affected by it. The writers likely didn't anticipate someone managing to throw a line at themselves.

Also, PWK and other insta-death effects can kill wildshaped druid. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/02/if-a-druid-wildshapes-into-a-wolf-and-is-targeted-with-power-word-kill-dead-or-alive/
More armor is good, but never trust it to last.

[Malifice]

Depends.

What kind of adventuring day are we using as the measuring stick? One with a single encounter, or one where the 'build' is allowed to take multiple short rests with impunity?

10 Short rests gives a 20th level Warlock 48 x 5th level spell slots (plus a 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level slot, invocations and cantrips) making them at least as deadly as any other full caster, and arguably much more so.

10 Short rests per day makes a Monk or Fighter pretty darn scary as well.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Moom druids, Wizards? They are overated.

Subtle Wish: duplicating MAGIC JAR.
Both are dead.

Also, Divine soul sorcerer level 20 is a natural Coffeelock and can Deal around 1200 damage on a single turn.

Druid's list is pretty weak

Good Lucky.
Care to explain this, I can't even begin to wrap my head around it.

Why is it a Divine Soul Sorcerer? How can it deal 1200 damage in a single turn?

Also how did you kill people with Magic Jar? You still have to kill their bodies within 100 ft of the jar otherwise you die returning to your own body. If your plan is to kill their bodies there's also that nasty bit about making a save against your own DC or dying. You can't hide the jar because the jar needs to be within the creatures sight to possess them, you also can't lead them too the jar because casting the spell puts your soul into the jar first, incapacitating your body. Your senses project from the jars space, so even you ability to send your soul out to 100ft won't help.

I don't see how subtle would help when your frail sorcerer body goes limp in front of them and a jar appears nearby. You could have wished for anything and you wished for a way to trap yourself.

[Dudewithknives]

Moom druids, Wizards? They are overated.

Subtle Wish: duplicating MAGIC JAR.
Both are dead.

Also, Divine soul sorcerer level 20 is a natural Coffeelock and he can deal around 1200 damage on a single turn.

Druid's list is pretty weak

Good Lucky.

Wait a second... new account this month, bad grammar, and insane love for a coffeelock divine soul build... do I smell KInglyness?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Wait a second... new account this month, bad grammar, and insane love for a coffeelock divine soul build... do I smell KInglyness?

Yea I don't know how I missed that connection, in hindsight it's obvious.

[KorvinStarmast]

Antimgic field. No more wildshape. Not according to Crawford's "how to tell if something is magic" sage advice commentary.

It doesn't use a spell slot.
It is a class feature.

[MidgetMarine]

Interesting. Can you elaborate on that?

Sure. I think it comes down to a few things.

Firstly, the "infinite" refilling of the Abjurer's Arcane Ward means, barring basically back-to-back encounters, the Svirfneblin chassis has the advantage of walking into most fights with a significant durability upgrade from most wizards. This durability isn't just effective when the Abjurer is taking damage though, and can be used to aid other party members.
This consistent durability is compounded on top of constant Non-Detection, and being unable to be targeted by Divination Magic is no small immunity for a control mage like an Abjurer. And, without spending much time on them, the additional spells from Svirfneblin Magic are relevant defensive spells leading up to late game, and are just gravy for higher-level iterations of this build.

Most importantly though, is how effectively the Abjurer deals with enemy casters/mages, which are often the primary way to 'solve' the power of late game caster PCs. The Abjurer, between Help Actions from the familiar, Proficiency to Dispel/C-Spell and Magical Resistance means that this already durable control mage, with plenty of ways to invalidate martial enemies, suddenly becomes an absolute pain for enemy casters to deal with it. A base wizard is incredibly difficult to pin down at later levels, and when combined with the reliable durability of a refilling A-Ward and the rather oppressive antimagic capabilities of the Abjuration 10 & 14 features, it forms an unreasonably hard to handle primary arcane caster, who only ever "needs" to take a single feat to turn the build on, though Resilient (Con) helps a ton. You're able to prioritize defensive physical statistics for additional protective measures at creation. All in all, I believe it minimizes the Wizard's innate difficulties, makes it excel in situations where other Arcane Disciplines suffer, and lets the sheer power of what we know to be one of the most powerful classes in the edition to shine with little worry for many scenarios.

[MidgetMarine]

No its pretty easy to Deal.

Silence, subtle metamagic and Cube of Force is truly absolute Pain for enemy Casters to Deal with It.

I'm speaking relative to other Wizards, Subt MM and CoF are certainly on the list of "Mage Bane" but my experience with Abjurers (Having DM'd multiple campaigns 1-20 and both used and seen them) is that they are, genuinely, an annoyingly persistent control mage that can cut off a ton of options for enemy casters

[MidgetMarine]

Against other Wizards, ok. They are persistent.

Sure. And that's where I think they really start the shine, the base versatility of the Wizard and their Spellcasting/Spellbook system shines against traditional martial/physical enemies innately, but can encounter difficulties against other mages of various kinds. The Abjurer, in my experience, compounds additional durability with a significant anti-magic specialty that threatens to trade slots advantageously with the majority of enemy casters. It's this additional depth of answers that pushes it slightly above the rest, and the lack of 'commitment', so to speak, that taking Svirfneblin/Svirf Magic requires from the Wizard makes it a pretty effortless choice that results in significant advantages over other wizards.

Obviously I'm very much in agreement with the common answers here. Moon Druid's absurd, so on so forth. I'm more just trying to outline what I think is one of the stronger single-class builds for one of the more powerful classes in the edition.

[Willie the Duck]

Well Benny, you have gotten 24 replies with about 15 different answers. Having played D&D since before it had a number (AD&D), I've found 5e to be the best balanced edition created. Find a concept you like, and run with it and have fun.

This, is, overall, the most informative answer of the thread (even though it directly avoids answering the OP question). There are few bad choices and the floor-to-ceiling distance is remarkably small (compared to other editions) is my primary takeaway from this edition.


So if we take out multiclasses, what kind of builds are most broken in DnD 5e?
... Fighter Battlemaster with Hand Crossbow with Xbow Expert and Sharpshooter with Archery fighting style.
... Moon Druid - well, what can I say- you have so much HP and healing that you are pretty much unkillable most of the time.
... Fighter Battlemaster Half-Orc with PAM, GWM and Sentinel. Not only great burst damage and DPR + incredible control of enemies thanks to PAM and manouvers.
What would be your pick for strongest single class builds?

Without context, we can't really answer this question. Is this rolled stats, array, or point buy? What does the PAM/GWM/Sentinel build do when the opposition refuses to allow them to close (or puts sticky pudds up in front of them)? What does the CE/SS archer do when the DM repeatedly throws front-line breachers at the party such that they are consistently fighting in melee range with a 17 AC and few ways to get advantage on attacks? Or what does either do when the DM does not morph magic items to match the players' preferred weapons, but instead distributes them randomly (such that the champion fighter with defensive fighting style and roughly equal Str and Dex is sitting pretty with a full +3 loadout before they get the magic weapons that fit their needs)? What does the Moon Druid do when the avenue to victory is not measured in unkillable-via-hp-depletion? Are optional encumbrance rules used (and how does that effect low-Str builds)? Does the DM put limits on arrows you can reasonably carry, or healing potions available per town? Are adventure hooks gated behind success at the social or exploration pillars or knowledge skill checks?

I will only talk about general trends. Those include:
If the DM does not constrain them in any ways, PAM/GWM/Sentinel polearmers and CE/SS archers are straightforward obvious ways to make powerful martial characters, and frustrating in that they do so easily, while things like 2 weapon fighting and sword and shield builds seem to have to work really hard/require well thought out optimization to compete.
Although annoying in their jagged power curve, and often being defense in search of a win-condition (other than switching back to humanoid form and casting spells, which at least in many ways defeats the purpose), the Moon Druid is an easy, straightforward way to make a survivable melee spellcaster (and one that does so, 'out of the can,' so to speak, not being reliant on specific feats or good attribute rolls or the like).
Although clearly not the answer to every problem, Lore bards and Paladins, in general, are classes where all of their abilities seem to have hit the edition and gelled, clicked, took-off, worked right, however you want to put it. They aren't 'hard to mess up' like the Moon Druid (lore bard in particular has to make hard choices with spell selections, any of which they will regret next adventure), and they each have known constraints. But overall, they just seem to work like they were supposed to (compared to counterexample of your choice). Add in a number of races with complementary stats that are on the high-end of the which-races-gelled/clicked/etc. lottery, and even without the cha-synergy-multiclassing issues, these are really good choices.
Wizards, just like every other edition, are predominantly payload-delivery services for the spell section of the book. They have the widest selection of spells (both in terms of raw numbers and the widest variety of 'problems these spells are designed to solve') and that's their dominant perk (a huge one). Hopefully obviously that's the opposite of hard to mess up, and you really have to know this edition's spell list (as which spells are good has changes compared to all other editions, but also--given the new concentration mechanic--which spells are good together has changed). That said, they are strong, as always. The 1-2 little perks outside of the spell list are pretty varied (and hit or miss), but the ones for abjurer, diviner, and evoker are very straight forward in their 'how is this useful?'-factor.



The rest is going to be pretty varied, depending on how you and your group play the game, your measurement metric (for example, while 'what does this build look like at exactly 20th-level?' and 'what does class X do against perfectly theory-crafted high-initiative diviner wizard with forcecage and counterspells at the ready in an encounter starting at optimal range for said wizard?' are useful data points, unless your gaming experience looks exactly like that, there's a whole lot more to the picture), overall (and during really important situations) rest patterns, and the composition of the rest of your party.

[LudicSavant]

*Snip*

Speaking of significant single-classed Wizard durability upgrades, I'm rather fond of the Hobgoblin Wizard myself.

Sure, you don't get Nondetection recharges for your Arcane Ward, but you'll have a considerably higher AC (therefore multiplying the value of every hit point you do have) and the ability to give yourself a +5 to saving throws 1/short rest.

As a Hobgoblin Wizard, you have a base AC of 19 from level 4 onwards (more if you ever get magic items) without deviating from your full casting progression at all. Throw Shield and other spells on top of that and nobody will ever dare to call your Wizard "squishy."

[Benny89]

*snip

Speaking of CE/SS Fighter the big thing with this build is that he does not have any disadvantage in melee range due to Crossbow Expert feat so whenever enemy is on your face or 120ft away it doesn't matter for his effectiveness. As for AC, well, DEX build can have nice AC too. A lot depends on DM of course and magic items.

Everything I consider here Point Buy, I hate rolling stats in any RPG.

[NaughtyTiger]

You are not really reading carefully are you? You should take the time. :)
OP was about "classes" not "archetypes".


About reading carefully. the OP was talking about builds not classes.
*cough*



So if we take out multiclasses, what kind of builds are most broken in DnD 5e? ...
What would be your pick for strongest single class builds?

[Wub]

Alright, I've looked down the subtle spell rabbit hole. First impression: there are various ways to counter it like using detect magic. As long as you can notice the spell being cast, it can be counterspelled. So while subtle spell is nice, it's doesn't make you immune if the enemy caster is prepared. (Also druid is notorious for concentration spells. Dispel isn't instant, but it also works.)

Also, antimagic field vs. wildshape on twitter. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/727321960967892992?lang=en
Wildshape can't be dispelled since it's not a spell effect, but is still magic when you turn into a big, honkin' elemental.

Anyway, Willie's summed things up nicely.

[Benny89]

I still want to know how some Sorc build mentioned here is doing 1200 dmg per round. How is that possible?

[Wub]

*checks smoking pile of robes*

Uhh, I'm not really sure how Divine Soul factors into it since it's much more healing oriented, but if I had to guess they were probably just doing some eldritch bolt/metamagic-esque combo and really fluffing the numbers on it. It's not really inconceivable for a sorcerer to make a crazy high output by burning metamagic.

[LudicSavant]

I still want to know how some Sorc build mentioned here is doing 1200 dmg per round. How is that possible?

As you may notice, that poster has already been banned from the forum and his posts have all been deleted.

He is basically a guy who's infamous around here for posting the same debunked build over and over again and making alt accounts each time he's banned. Just ignore him.

[Benny89]

As you may notice, that poster has already been banned from the forum and his posts have all been deleted.

He is basically a guy who's infamous around here for posting the same debunked build over and over again and making alt accounts each time he's banned. Just ignore him.

Wow.. We are not arguing about religion here... Is this guy some Sorcerer Messiah?

Anyway- I never seen mentioned here Monk. I remember that Monk was quite powerhouse in 3.5 ed.

Is he bad now?

[Willie the Duck]

Speaking of CE/SS Fighter the big thing with this build is that he does not have any disadvantage in melee range due to Crossbow Expert feat so whenever enemy is on your face or 120ft away it doesn't matter for his effectiveness. As for AC, well, DEX build can have nice AC too. A lot depends on DM of course and magic items.

Not having disadvantage is not the same as having advantage. Crossbow expert makes having the enemies get up in your grill not be a 'spend your actions getting away' situation. That doesn't change the fact that you are now a moderate-at-best-AC martial (here we are clearly disagreeing, but 'what AC is sufficient for frontlining?' is going to be pure opinion, so I won't belabor it) with no real advantages for being there subjecting yourself to attacks. Sword and board builds with defensive fighting style have an obvious reason why they are in melee (if for no other reason because they can survive doing so). PAM and Sentinel builds and other sticky tanks actually want the enemies to be engaging them and not others. Even with CE, the ranged fighter finding that the enemy front line has burst through your front line and is attacking you is still a fail-state to their strategy.


Wow.. We are not arguing about religion here... Is this guy some Sorcerer Messiah?

He's a straight up, straight forward troll.


Anyway- I never seen mentioned here Monk. I remember that Monk was quite powerhouse in 3.5 ed.

Is he bad now?

Are you being facetious or forthright? Monk seemed powerful when 3e came out, but it quickly became obvious that it was directly dis-synergistic (mobility and massively-multiple attacks do not work together in 3rd edition). In 5e, monks are 'fine' -- they do what they are supposed to do. They are on the 'special forces' style team along with rogues, rangers, valor bards, and the like. Like the rest of those, they are really dependent upon how well the player playing them, well, plays them.

[Wub]

I never seen mentioned here Monk. I remember that Monk was quite powerhouse in 3.5 ed.

Is he bad now?

No, no, definitely- *flips through book* - yeah, no, they're pretty good. Monks are just a bit more specialized so it's hard to describe them as good in a very generic sense.

They continue to be good against magic, have decent DPS, and have a couple of ways to disable enemies or move around the battlefield. Monks tend to fill a support/combat role, so they need the right party comp to really shine.

[Galactkaktus]

Any caster class with access to the wish spell. The shear utility of any 8th level spell or lower means that you can probably solve any problem. And well having simulacrum means that you have 2 characters in one.

[Specter]

Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids and Warlocks. Because 9th-level spells.

[Benny89]

Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids and Warlocks. Because 9th-level spells.

Problem is- rarely in any campaign you see levels 16+. At least from my experience most people want to change character/campaigns at around that level.

Only once in life I had got to level 18 legit (from 1 to 18).

[NaughtyTiger]

Problem is- rarely in any campaign you see levels 16+. At least from my experience most people want to change character/campaigns at around that level.

Only once in life I had got to level 18 legit (from 1 to 18).

The OP left the definition of "Strongest single class build" up to the crowd. Most folks are reading that as capstone...
If the intent was "Strongest single class build at level 4-11" then the OP needs to define it as such.

[Benny89]

The OP left the definition of "Strongest single class build" up to the crowd. Most folks are reading that as capstone...
If the intent was "Strongest single class build at level 4-11" then the OP needs to define it as such.

I am OP :D :D

I get why to think about capstone, my bad. But I prefer builds that are strong from level 1 to 20.

So far you sold me to that Valkyrie Paladin :D

[Willie the Duck]

The OP left the definition of "Strongest single class build" up to the crowd. Most folks are reading that as capstone...
If the intent was "Strongest single class build at level 4-11" then the OP needs to define it as such.

He is the OP.

A few of us have pointed out that the criteria might ought to be 1 through 20, instead of just at 20.

However, you are right, putting level restrictions (much less a constraint like build/situation X doesn't count because people don't want to play in the game space) is a pretty hard constraint for the rest of us to work around (even if we'd been told of it ahead of time).

[NaughtyTiger]

I am OP :D :D
I know.
I was suggesting that maybe you could clarify what you wanted rather than complain about an answers not fitting your hidden criteria.

[Wub]

...I always just used that spell to make a dog buddy.

If valk strikes your fancy, would you say you're more interested in fun builds that capitalize on niche abilities?

[Specter]

Problem is- rarely in any campaign you see levels 16+. At least from my experience most people want to change character/campaigns at around that level.

Only once in life I had got to level 18 legit (from 1 to 18).


I am OP :D :D

I get why to think about capstone, my bad. But I prefer builds that are strong from level 1 to 20.

So far you sold me to that Valkyrie Paladin :D

Even in this case the examples are true. Getting Spirit Guardians at 5th level, or Animate Objects at 9th, or Teleport at 13th, or whatever, means you'll always be strong.

[Benny89]

I know.
I was suggesting that maybe you could clarify what you wanted rather than complain about an answers not fitting your hidden criteria.

I didn't complain even once. I just stated my opinion in regard to "casters are strong because of level 9 spells" part of post I replied to. Because if that was THE ONLY reason casters are strong that means a LOT of waiting to reach that.

And I said "my bad" for not stating more details. 1-20 consistent strength is what I had in mind.

[NaughtyTiger]

I didn't complain even once.

"Problem is" is a complaint.

and yes you did mea culpa (good on you)

that said, my other posts were passive aggressive, that is bad on me.

[Wub]

It can also be read as pointing out a practical limitation. It is fact that most adventuring happens below level 20, so it's important to optimize accordingly.

[MaxWilson]

So far you sold me to that Valkyrie Paladin :D

Just bear in mind that the ~200 HP of damage mentioned is not 200 per round. It's 200 HP, once per day, if you happen to have a Belt of ~Storm Giant Strength and are fighting something medium-sized or smaller and have Haste already up and get in a reaction attack (4 attacks for about 160 HP damage on your turn, +40 HP damage on a bad guy's turn from PAM). After that nova round your damage drops to ~100, or ~60 HP if you have only Str 20, ~37 HP when Haste runs out and you're not getting a reaction attack and have only Str 20.

-Max

[LudicSavant]

and get in a reaction attack

You are mistaken. There was no reaction attack in that calculation.

Edit: And... *checks*


~37 HP when Haste runs out and you're not getting a reaction attack and have only Str 20.

This figure is also mistaken. No idea where you got it from, but you seem to be missing a few key sources of resourceless damage here.

[MaxWilson]

You are mistaken. There was no reaction attack in that calculation.

Huh. Then I'm overlooking something, because what I see is:

5 attacks (Extra Attack, Haste, PAM bonus attack, PAM reaction attack) at +10 to hit with advantage for 1d10 (or 1d4) + 19 + 5d8 (Divine Smite 4th+).

Chance of hitting AC 20: 80%ish.
Damage per hit: 47ish.

Chance of critting: 10%ish
Extra damage on crit: 27

Average damage per attack w/ Divine Smite against a Medium-or-smaller foe: 0.8 * 47 + 0.1 * 27 = 40.3.

Multiplying by five attacks, and disregarding the smaller d4 on one attack as negligible, yields ~200 HP of damage under ideal conditions.

If you have some other way of boosting your damage per attack by 20%, and it's not GWF cheese, I'd be interested to know it and I'm sure the OP would too, since he's the one who is planning on playing it.

[Benny89]

Just bear in mind that the ~200 HP of damage mentioned is not 200 per round. It's 200 HP, once per day, if you happen to have a Belt of ~Storm Giant Strength and are fighting something medium-sized or smaller and have Haste already up and get in a reaction attack (4 attacks for about 160 HP damage on your turn, +40 HP damage on a bad guy's turn from PAM). After that nova round your damage drops to ~100, or ~60 HP if you have only Str 20, ~37 HP when Haste runs out and you're not getting a reaction attack and have only Str 20.

-Max

Hm, correct me if my math is wrong but potential damage is (2 Attacks + GWM + Haste extra Attack) 3d10 + 15 + 30 + 18d8 (3x 5d8 Smite + 3 x 1d8 Improved Smite bonus radiant damage for each melee hit) + (PAM extra attack) 1d4 +5 +10 +6d8. And that is without opportunity attacks and without any Crit. And it uses totally of 4 Smites and on level 20 we have 5x 5d8 smites (3 lvl 4 slots and 2 lvl 5 slots).

That is average damage: 16,5 +15 + 30 + 81 plus 2,5 + 5 + 10 + 27 in first round is 187 (and this is without adding advantage from Oath, damage bonus from Bless and GWF rerolls)

So in our next round we will be able to still use 1 5d8 smite and 3 4d8 Smites which will reduce our average damage by 3d8 so 13,5.

So in second round of going full Nova that will be 173,5 damage.

In third turn we will have left 3 x 3d8 smites + 4 2d8 smites so our averag will start to drop again.

But I can see that it can deal waaaay above 200 per day if you burn all Smites. If you will get ONE crit during all that the damage will skyrocket because of Smite getting double dices, but that is luck factor.

I didn't calculate things like potenatial Bless on you, Hunter Mark/Hex on target or if target is Fiend or Undead then it's extra 1d8 per attack again. And if you have magic weapon etc.

But it's still impressive damage.

[MaxWilson]

Hm, correct me if my math is wrong but potential damage is (2 Attacks + GWM + Haste extra Attack) 3d10 + 15 + 30 + 18d8 (3x 5d8 Smite + 3 x 1d8 Improved Smite bonus radiant damage for each melee hit) + (PAM extra attack) 1d4 +5 +10 +6d8. And that is without opportunity attacks and without any Crit. And it uses totally of 4 Smites and on level 20 we have 5x 5d8 smites (3 lvl 4 slots and 2 lvl 5 slots).

That is average damage: 16,5 +15 + 30 + 81 plus 2,5 + 5 + 10 + 27 in first round is 187 (and this is without adding advantage from Oath, damage bonus from Bless and GWF rerolls)

Sure, but you've only got an 80% hit rate (against Medium targets), so 187 * 0.8 ~= 150.

You're right about Improved Smite, I forgot about that. Since that's only an extra 14 points of damage though (4 attacks * 4.5 per d8 * 0.8 hit rate) I don't think that explains how to hit 200 without using a reaction attack. Obviously I'm still missing something.

[LudicSavant]

Huh. Then I'm overlooking something, because what I see is:

5 attacks (Extra Attack, Haste, PAM bonus attack, PAM reaction attack) at +10 to hit with advantage for 1d10 (or 1d4) + 19 + 5d8 (Divine Smite 4th+).

Chance of hitting AC 20: 80%ish.
Damage per hit: 47ish.

Chance of critting: 10%ish
Extra damage on crit: 27

Average damage per attack w/ Divine Smite against a Medium-or-smaller foe: 0.8 * 47 + 0.1 * 27 = 40.3.

Multiplying by five attacks, and disregarding the smaller d4 on one attack as negligible, yields ~200 HP of damage under ideal conditions.

If you have some other way of boosting your damage per attack by 20%, and it's not GWF cheese, I'd be interested to know it and I'm sure the OP would too, since he's the one who is planning on playing it.

So I immediately notice a few basic things from this calculation. You're not counting the GWF fighting style, GWM's crit bonus, or Improved Divine Smite. You may be missing other factors as well, but it's a real pain to try and reverse engineer how you arrived at incorrect numbers.

[MaxWilson]

So I immediately notice a few basic things from this calculation. You're not counting the GWF fighting style, GWM's crit bonus, or Improved Divine Smite. You may be missing other factors as well, but it's a real pain to try and reverse engineer how you arrived at incorrect numbers.

I'm not counting GWM's crit bonus separately because you're already using your bonus action on the polearm master haft attack. Notice that I didn't bother discounting the d10 to d4 for haft attack, so that's equivalent to just assuming that you get the GWM bonus attack every round. Yes, I didn't include GWF (because it's a bad fighting style, worse than Defense in most cases) which can potentially boost greatsword damage from 7 damage per attack to 8.33, if you were using a greatsword instead of a polearm (but then why have PAM) and does something similarly tiny to polearm damage.

Yep, I overlooked Improved Divine Smite, but if I subtract -40 for no reaction attack and then add the +14 for Improved Divine Smite, I still come up way short of your hypothetical 200 HP-under-ideal-conditions-against-a-Medium-sized-foe. So I'm still interested to know what I'm really overlooking.

I was pretty transparent about my numbers in the post above, so there shouldn't be much to reverse engineer, but if it's tough for you to do just skip over the part where you try to reverse engineer my attempts to reverse engineer your numbers, and just present your own numbers.

[Benny89]

*snip

Nevertheless it's way more than 200 dmg per day. You can actually go way beyond 200 in one round if you crit.

As for 80% chance to hit. It's still high and dices are dices. I for example almost never have bave rolls in RPGs and in last session I had 7 natural 20s on attack rolls total in 5 hours.

But calculating all damage factors Paladin on 20 can dish out way more than 200 damage per day.


But since we are in math, let's compare that to Hand Crossbow Battlemaster on max NOVA (using action surge on level 20).

9d6 + 45 + 90 (4 attacks + bonus attack + 4 attacks from action surge + 20 DEX + Sharpshooter) = average 166,5

After that you can do second NOVA (2x Action Surges) = 166,5

After that you go back to 5 attacks per round so 5d6 + 25 + 50 = 92,5


So Paladin can on average nova harder in first 3 rounds but after that he is down to 3d10 + 1d4 + 20 + 40 (if we keep Haste on) = 79.

So Paladin can burst for harder on average, but he will then fall down in consistent DPR vs Hand Xbow BM.

However worth to note, Fighter will have his 120ft range Novas back on short rest while Paladin need to finish long rest. Paladin hits with advantage due to Oath spell but BM can use Precision attack to add d12 to his rolls to ensure hitting targets (also back on short rest).

[Dudewithknives]

I'm not counting GWM's crit bonus separately because you're already using your bonus action on the polearm master haft attack. Notice that I didn't bother discounting the d10 to d4 for haft attack, so that's equivalent to just assuming that you get the GWM bonus attack every round. Yes, I didn't include GWF (because it's a bad fighting style, worse than Defense in most cases) which can potentially boost greatsword damage from 7 damage per attack to 8.33, if you were using a greatsword instead of a polearm (but then why have PAM) and does something similarly tiny to polearm damage.

Yep, I overlooked Improved Divine Smite, but if I subtract -40 for no reaction attack and then add the +14 for Improved Divine Smite, I still come up way short of your hypothetical 200 HP-under-ideal-conditions-against-a-Medium-sized-foe. So I'm still interested to know what I'm really overlooking.

I was pretty transparent about my numbers in the post above, so there shouldn't be much to reverse engineer, but if it's tough for you to do just skip over the part where you try to reverse engineer my attempts to reverse engineer your numbers, and just present your own numbers.

Also even with that you can’t kill the moon Druid.
You MIGHT knock it out of wild shape that turn. It still has all of its normal Druid hp and just bonus action shifts again next round.

The paladin will burn out of spells long before the Druid even has to care.

[LudicSavant]

I'm not counting GWM's crit bonus


Yes, I didn't include GWF


Yep, I overlooked Improved Divine Smite

Well... don't do that then?


your own numbers.

https://i.postimg.cc/q46yH5xC/Valkyrie.png



[B]So Paladin can burst for harder on average, but he will then fall down in consistent DPR vs Hand Xbow BM.

You are correct sir! The reason the Paladin is good isn't because of their damage, it's because they do that damage on top of the rest of their kit. IMHO the most important part of a Paladin's kit, and the main reason they are a sought-after party role, is because of their aura.

[Benny89]

Well... don't do that then?



https://i.postimg.cc/q46yH5xC/Valkyrie.png



You are correct sir! The reason the Paladin is good isn't because of their damage, it's because they do that damage on top of the rest of their kit. IMHO the most important part of a Paladin's kit, and the main reason they are a sought-after party role, is because of their aura.

Yup, Paladin is still awesome because he has all other stuff like auras, oath spells, spells etc etc.

The fact that he can out-damage fully optimized Hand Xbow BM (which is I think highest consistent DPR in whole 5e) even in only first 3 rounds is DAM impresive considering his whole kit because Xbow BM is just pure DPR machine and nothing more. I respect Paladins more and more.

[MaxWilson]

Well... don't do that then?

But you shouldn't to count GWM as well as Polearm Master. If you do that, you're wrong. {{Scrubbed}}



https://i.postimg.cc/q46yH5xC/Valkyrie.png

Those numbers look wrong. According to your screenshot, you're not using the GWM -5/+10, so you're doing (according to the screenshot) 3 x 6d8+d10+9, plus one 6d8+d4+9. But avg.(3.6d8+d10+9)+(6d8+d4+9) = 163, not just 185ish as in your screenshot. GWF would boost the damage from a halberd attack from 5.5 to 6.3, yielding ~166.2 damage if all attacks hit.

You've got some kind of a bug in your code but it's hard to tell what since you didn't post the cost. I suspect you're giving the GWF reroll bonus to the Paladin smites--it's about the right order of magnitude to account for the error. But if you're doing that on purpose it would be simpler to just say so instead of forcing me to intuit that from reverse-engineering your screenshots, and then we could have a discussion about whether or not that's a correct ruling (and more importantly, whether or not the OP's DM would use that same ruling).


Yup, Paladin is still awesome because he has all other stuff like auras, oath spells, spells etc etc.

The fact that he can out-damage fully optimized Hand Xbow BM (which is I think highest consistent DPR in whole 5e) even in only first 3 rounds is DAM impresive considering his whole kit because Xbow BM is just pure DPR machine and nothing more. I respect Paladins more and more.

He doesn't outdamage a fully optimized fighter. If you give that same Girdle of Storm Giant Strength to a MC GWM PAM BM (same build as the Paladin but on a fighter chassis, and no GWF because it's bad) you get

avg.(8.att 20 +10a 2d6+19)+(att 20 +10a d4+19) = 188.73 DPR (plug formula into https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.1/index.html)

which is slightly higher than the Paladin numbers in LudicSavant's screenshot (looks to be about 185ish), and of course the fighter can do that twice every short rest instead of every long rest.

If the Fighter wants to burn a long rest resource he can spike his numbers a bit more by taking Magic Initiate (Hex) then we get:

avg.(8.att 20 +10a 2d6+19+d6)+(att 20 +10a d4+19+d6) = 216.9225 DPR,

but in practice that's not really worth doing.

Edit: as an Eldritch Knight instead of a Battlemaster, he could Haste himself to get avg.(9.att 20 +10a 2d6+19)+(att 20 +10a d4+19) = 210 DPR or cast Magic Weapon IV once per day to get avg.(8.att 20 +12a 2d6+21)+(att 20 +12a d4+21) = 223 DPR, both of which are more practical than Magic Initiate (Hex), but then he'd be losing out on superiority dice.

If the GWM PAM BM spent all of his superiority dice on Menacing Attack or something instead of Precision Attack that would add about another 39 DPR for ~256 DPR, which leaves the Paladin in the dust. And again, unlike the Paladin he can nova for ~200 DPR against AC 20 twice per short rest (just not with Hex every time) and still do ~100 DPR the rest of the time too.

But in reality, nova melee DPR is a bad thing to over-optimize for, and the Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter Fighter will be more effective (especially with Prodigy (Athletics)) than the GWM/PAM one, because the Sharpshooter CE guy wil get in a bunch of free shots while the GWM/PAM one is still closing on the enemy. And unlike the melee-specialized Valkyrie, his strategy doesn't fall apart if his Pegasus gets disabled, nor does he have to worry about falling to his death if hit by a beam from Repelling Eldritch Blast. Don't get me wrong, having a mount is awesome and using mounts is highly encouraged by smart players, but they come with built-in vulnerabilities.

Let's not forget that the Paladin's DPR is considerably lower against non-Medium-sized foes like non-wyrmling dragons, most demons, beholders, astral dreadnoughts, and many other things worth spending a nova on in the first place.

But hey, if you like once-or-twice-ish-per-day novas, play it. Enjoy yourself! It sounds like you at least understand what you're getting into.

[LudicSavant]

But you shouldn't to count GWM as well as Polearm Master. If you do that, you're wrong. Maybe if you had actually read what I wrote you would have realized that.

I did read what you wrote. However, the statement that you shouldn't account for both GWM and PAM is incorrect.

A correct calculation should account for the following:
If one of your Action attacks crit, you use the GWM bonus action.
Otherwise you use the PAM bonus action.


According to your screenshot, you're not using the GWM -5/+10
The -5/+10 DPR is actually listed on there, in the screenshot. No idea what you're on about. (It's ~194 DPR).


You've got some kind of a bug in your code but it's hard to tell what since you didn't post the cost.
I both double checked it by hand, and had an actual mathematician (goes by AureusFulgens on here) check to make sure all of the formulas were accurate. Also the sheet is fully documented, so if you want to go through the formula you can do so.

If you can actually find an error, then I would be highly interested in finding out what it is, as accuracy is extremely important to me. However, if all you're gonna do is say that it "looks wrong" and tell me that I am not reading what you wrote when I point out your errors, then I don't think we have anything more to discuss. It's like trying to deal with those people who think that .9 repeating doesn't equal 1, because it "looks wrong." Ugh.

[Benny89]

But you shouldn't to count GWM as well as Polearm Master. If you do that, you're wrong. Maybe if you had actually read what I wrote you would have realized that.




Those numbers look wrong. According to your screenshot, you're not using the GWM -5/+10, so you're doing (according to the screenshot) 3 x 6d8+d10+9, plus one 6d8+d4+9. But avg.(3.6d8+d10+9)+(6d8+d4+9) = 163, not just 185ish as in your screenshot. GWF would boost the damage from a halberd attack from 5.5 to 6.3, yielding ~166.2 damage if all attacks hit.

You've got some kind of a bug in your code but it's hard to tell what since you didn't post the cost. I suspect you're giving the GWF reroll bonus to the Paladin smites--it's about the right order of magnitude to account for the error. But if you're doing that on purpose it would be simpler to just say so instead of forcing me to intuit that from reverse-engineering your screenshots, and then we could have a discussion about whether or not that's a correct ruling (and more importantly, whether or not the OP's DM would use that same ruling).



He doesn't outdamage a fully optimized fighter. If you give that same Girdle of Storm Giant Strength to a MC GWM PAM BM (same build as the Paladin but on a fighter chassis, and no GWF because it's bad) you get

avg.(8.att 20 +10a 2d6+19)+(att 20 +10a d4+19) = 188.73 DPR (plug formula into https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.1/index.html)

which is slightly higher than the Paladin numbers in LudicSavant's screenshot (looks to be about 185ish), and of course the fighter can do that twice every short rest instead of every long rest.

If the Fighter wants to burn a long rest resource he can spike his numbers a bit more by taking Magic Initiate (Hex) then we get:

avg.(8.att 20 +10a 2d6+19+d6)+(att 20 +10a d4+19+d6) = 216.9225 DPR,

but in practice that's not really worth doing.

If he spent all of his superiority dice on Menacing Attack or something instead of Precision Attack that would add about another 39 DPR for ~256 DPR, which leaves the Paladin in the dust. And again, unlike the Paladin he can nova for ~200 DPR against AC 20 twice per short rest (just not with Hex every time) and still do ~100 DPR the rest of the time too.

But in reality, nova melee DPR is a bad thing to over-optimize for, and the Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter Fighter will be more effective (especially with Prodigy (Athletics)) than the GWM/PAM one, because the Sharpshooter CE guy wil get in a bunch of free shots while the GWM/PAM one is still closing on the enemy. And unlike the melee-specialized Valkyrie, his strategy doesn't fall apart if his Pegasus gets disabled, nor does he have to worry about falling to his death if hit by a beam from Repelling Eldritch Blast. Don't get me wrong, having a mount is awesome and using mounts is highly encouraged by smart players, but they come with built-in vulnerabilities.

Let's not forget that the Paladin's DPR is considerably lower against non-Medium-sized foes like non-wyrmling dragons, most demons, beholders, astral dreadnoughts, and many other things worth spending a nova on in the first place.

But hey, if you like once-or-twice-ish-per-day novas, play it. Enjoy yourself! It sounds like you at least understand what you're getting into.

Wait, how do you calculate that. Paladin in build I did math for had 20 STR so that is same for a Fighter.

Fighter PAM/GWM is (level 20) using Action Surge (9 attacks total)

8d10 + 40 + 80 plus 1d4 + 5 + 10. That is on average 44 + 44 + 80 plus 2.5 + 5 + 10 = 185,5 damage.

It's pretty much the same as first round for full Smite lvl 20 Vengance Paladin.

Second round Paladin loses by about 15 damage points.

But on third he will be ahead by quite margin because he still have Smites to burn and Fighter no more Action Surges.

After that Fighter will start to be better with DPR.

The only way Fighter can go higher is to burn sup.dices for Menancing Attacks however keep in mind that against AC20 Fighter will have to use sup.dices mostly for Precision Attacks to offset -5 from GWM, while Vengance Paladin is attacking with advantage all the time due to his subclass Oath spell. Of course if enemies were under for example Fearie Fires- Fighter could burn all Sup.dices for additional 6d12 which would push him beyond Paladin Nova in one round.

Also counting in Hex is unfair as I didn't count Bless, Hunters Mark or Hex for Paladin too.

Vengeance Paladin has higher damage output on averange in FIRST 3 rounds . First round they are toe to toe, second Fighter is little ahead, third paladin is much ahead, 4th and more = Fighter is much ahead.

However keep in mid that if Paladin can even in first 3 rounds NOVA harder than Fighter (or even if it was just even damage) = it's still super good as he brings so much more than Fighter apart from that. Aura, social skills, spells, heals etc.


And no Vengance Paladin has to worry about droping from Pegasus lol. On level 20 they can have wings of their own if you remember ;). Also if you read calculations on Pegasus after Speech bonus + Haste and Paladin Aura you'd need like 3 Meteor showers to kill it (and it has resistance on failed DEX saves).

[Benny89]

Btw. is there any way to increase Paladin amount of spells slots?

[LudicSavant]

Btw. is there any way to increase Paladin amount of spells slots?

Basically just multiclassing.

[MaxWilson]

{{scrubbed}}

[LudicSavant]

And if you'd read what I wrote, you'd see that I said that already.

You literally just said


But you shouldn't to count GWM as well as Polearm Master.

If that doesn't mean "you shouldn't count GWM as well as Polearm Master" then I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean when you say words.



And if you'd read what I wrote, you'd see that I said that already.
By "said that already" are you referring to this as "said it already?" Because this:

I'm not counting GWM's crit bonus separately because you're already using your bonus action on the polearm master haft attack. Notice that I didn't bother discounting the d10 to d4 for haft attack, so that's equivalent to just assuming that you get the GWM bonus attack every round.
is not mathematically equivalent to this:

It is true that you do not gain two bonus attack actions. However, your calculation should account for the following:
If one of your Action attacks crit, you use the GWM bonus action.
Otherwise you use the PAM bonus action.

[Benny89]

snip

But GWF applies to Smites.

Also we didn't count I think Soul of Vengance which allows Vengeance Paladin to make extra attack when enemy is attacking him and is in range.

Which with PAM, Haste and 2 attacks would give us 5, not 4 attack per round as in 99% of cases enemy you fight with WANTS to hits you

[Benny89]

So counting extra attack as reaction from Soul of Vengeance (because we talk about Vengeance Paladin here) we have (please mind I do not count GWF, Advantage etc. because I don't know how, I just do simply damage numbers):

4d10 + 20 + 40 + 4 x 6d8 (2 attacks, one haste attack, one SoV attack + 20 STR, GWM +10 and 4 x Improved Smite) plus 1d4 + 5 + 10 + 6d8 from PAM.

Which is on average 234.5 damage if we talk about Vengeance Paladin with his extra attack per round from enemy attacking him.

We burn all out 5 x 6d8 Smite slots for that though in first round on level 20 ;).

[MaxWilson]

Wait, how do you calculate that. Paladin in build I did math for had 20 STR so that is same for a Fighter.

I may have missed one of your posts. I saw your post #119, but it looked like that was neglecting to-hit rates, so for parity I took the same Girdle of Storm Giant Strength and Mounted Combatant advantage that LudicSavant originally postulated for the paladin and applied it to the fighter. The formula

avg.(8.att 20 +10a 2d6+19)+(att 20 +10a d4+19) = ~188

comes from:

8 attacks against AC 20 at +10 with advantage against a Medium target (+9 from Str 29, +6 from proficiency, -5 for -5/+10 power attack = +10 to hit, with advantage) for... yeah, that's a mistake on my part, it should be d10+19 because it's a halberd. (+9 for Strength, +10 for power attack, equals +19.) Then there's a single bonus action attack at +10 to hit with advantage for d4+19. So make it

avg.(8.att 20 +10a d10+19)+(att 20 +10a d4+19) = ~178 damage

If it were an Eldritch Knight instead of a BM, spending his concentration on Magic Weapon IV, that would add an extra +2 to hit and damage, for

avg.(8.att 20 +12a d10+21)+(att 20 +12a d4+21) = ~211 damage.

As far as how the calculator works, it basically just enumerates all possible options and counts them up in the dumbest way possible, accounting for crits and misses. Source code is on github.


Fighter PAM/GWM is (level 20) using Action Surge (9 attacks total)

8d10 + 40 + 80 plus 1d4 + 5 + 10. That is on average 44 + 44 + 80 plus 2.5 + 5 + 10 = 185,5 damage.

It's pretty much the same as first round for full Smite lvl 20 Vengance Paladin.

But the Paladin is blowing all of his spell slots on Divine Smites, and you're not spending any Battlemaster Superiority dice. That would add another 6d12 if you spent them all (which you shouldn't, it's not a good use of superiority dice). Alternately you could be the EK with Magic Weapon IV up, which is actually a better choice.


Second round Paladin loses by about 15 damage points.

But on third he will be ahead by quite margin because he still have Smites to burn and Fighter no more Action Surges.

Hmm, maybe so. Paladin has 15 spell slots, spends one on Haste, another three to four of his highest-level slots on round one, another three or four on round two. On round three he still has 1st and 2nd level spell slots available and will be doing something like

avg.(4.att 20 +10a d10+4d8) = ~84 DPR. (Again, I'm assuming full d10 GWM attack here instead of d4 haft attack, so actual damage would be a little lower.)

Meanwhile, the Fighter with no action surges left but still using Magic Weapon IV is doing

avg.(4.att 20 +12a d10+21)+(att 20 +12a d4+21) = 116 DPR.

So the Fighter is still better in this case, which shouldn't surprise anyone because sustained DPR is what Fighters are all about and Paladins are not. And that BTW is why blowing all of your superiority dice in round one for a measly 6d12 damage is a dumb idea.


The only way Fighter can go higher is to burn sup.dices for Menancing Attacks however keep in mind that against AC20 Fighter will have to use sup.dices mostly for Precision Attacks to offset -5 from GWM, while Vengance Paladin is attacking with advantage all the time due to his subclass Oath spell.

They're both attacking at advantage due to the Mounted Combatant assumption. If we assume a larger enemy, it becomes more complicated, and the Fighter is incentivized to do things like spend one attack per round proning the enemy (Prodigy (Athletics) is great BTW) so he can make four attacks at advantage instead of five without advantage. But LudicSavant's Mounted Combatant assumption renders that discussion moot, since it isn't a larger enemy.

But yes, Precision Attack is certainly a better use of superiority dice than burning the raw d12s on a Menacing damage boost. (Menacing is good in its own right, but not for the damage.) Riposte is also a good use.


Of course if enemies were under for example Fearie Fires- Fighter could burn all Sup.dices for additional 6d12 which would push him beyond Paladin Nova in one round.

Also counting in Hex is unfair as I didn't count Bless, Hunters Mark or Hex for Paladin too.

You can't count it for the Paladin, since he's already using his concentration on Haste. That's precisely why I brought it up. It's not fair to give the Paladin something to concentrate on but not the Fighter. Each PC gets one concentration spell at a time, and if you're not using it and you're not Raging, you can't claim to be fully optimizing your DPR.


Vengeance Paladin has higher damage output on averange in FIRST 3 rounds . First round they are toe to toe, second Fighter is little ahead, third paladin is much ahead, 4th and more = Fighter is much ahead.

I think I've shown above why this is inaccurate.


However keep in mid that if Paladin can even in first 3 rounds NOVA harder than Fighter (or even if it was just even damage) = it's still super good as he brings so much more than Fighter apart from that. Aura, social skills, spells, heals etc.

Meh. In the highest-DPR case above, the Eldritch Knight has only spent one spell slot (Magic Weapon IV) to exceed the Paladin's nova DPR by about 25 DPR. When the Paladin has zero spell slots left, the Fighter will still be Counterspelling and Shielding and Absorbing Elements and maybe doing a bit of grappling/proning or using those extra feats (maybe Healer, maybe Prodigy (Athletics), maybe Lucky, maybe Ritual Magic) that the Paladin couldn't afford to get on top of his GWM/PAM/MC/Inspiring Leader. It's all pretty even


And no Vengance Paladin has to worry about droping from Pegasus lol.

Er, Vengeance Paladins only get to fly for one hour per day, and it costs an action to activate. You can absolutely fall to your death the other 23 hours a day. Even during the 1 hour in which you're flying, you can be knocked off your mount (or grappled) and then your mount can be easily killed, and you lose most of your mobility and become vulnerable to opportunity attacks (very bad thing when you're Hasted). Not having to worry about this kind of thing is a distinct advantage for a ranged build like the CE/Sharpshooter, which is the point. It's not that having a mount is a bad thing--it's that the ability to fight effectively without a mount is better. It's not like the Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter can't get on a horse and play kiting games too, after all--but he'll still be combat-effective if his steed gets toasted by an Ancient White Dragon's breath weapon.


On level 20 they can have wings of their own if you remember ;). Also if you read calculations on Pegasus after Speech bonus + Haste and Paladin Aura you'd need like 3 Meteor showers to kill it (and it has resistance on failed DEX saves).

Cherry-picked example. One beholder can still paralyze it with a single failed Con save, or an ancient white dragon can kill it with a high roll on breath weapon (and almost certainly break the paladin's concentration on Haste, causing the Paladin to lose a turn), or a bheur hag can damage it (and the Paladin) with Cone of Cold. Your defense against all of these things is "stay out of range", which is easier said than done when you're a melee-centric attacker whose mount has to spend an action each turn on Disengaging. And that is why the Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter is stronger than the GWM/PAM build despite having slightly lower DPR.

Good gaming to you. Hope you enjoy your Paladin.

[MaxWilson]

But GWF applies to Smites.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-april-2016

That's controversial.


If you use Great Weapon Fighting with a feature like Divine Smite or a spell like hex, do you get to reroll any 1 or 2 you roll for the extra damage? The Great Weapon Fighting feature—which is shared by fighters and paladins—is meant to benefit only the damage roll of the weapon used with the feature. For example, if you use a greatsword with the feature, you can reroll any 1 or 2 you roll on the weapon’s 2d6. If you’re a paladin and use Divine Smite with the greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting doesn’t let you reroll a 1 or 2 that you roll for the damage of Divine Smite.

The main purpose of this limitation is to prevent the tedium of excessive rerolls. Many of the limits in the game are aimed at inhibiting slowdowns. Having no limit would also leave the door open for Great Weapon Fighting to grant more of a damage boost than we intended, although the potential for that is minimal compared to the likelihood that numerous rerolls would bog the game down.

I happen to agree with Sage Advice on this one, but ask your DM.


Also we didn't count I think Soul of Vengance which allows Vengeance Paladin to make extra attack when enemy is attacking him and is in range.

I counted reaction attacks initially, which is why I found the initial ~200 HP per round claim plausible, but LudicSavant explicitly disclaimed them. Note that if you're using Soul of Vengeance you're not really using your mount's mobility and you're potentially opening yourself up to a world of pain, plus lost actions when you lose concentration on Haste.


Which with PAM, Haste and 2 attacks would give us 5, not 4 attack per round as in 99% of cases enemy you fight with WANTS to hits you

Yep. That's why I initially thought 200 HP was reasonable, as a once-per-day nova. I don't think you can do it without the reaction attack or GWF-on-smite.

[MaxWilson]

So counting extra attack as reaction from Soul of Vengeance (because we talk about Vengeance Paladin here) we have (please mind I do not count GWF, Advantage etc. because I don't know how, I just do simply damage numbers):

4d10 + 20 + 40 + 4 x 6d8 (2 attacks, one haste attack, one SoV attack + 20 STR, GWM +10 and 4 x Improved Smite) plus 1d4 + 5 + 10 + 6d8 from PAM.

Which is on average 234.5 damage if we talk about Vengeance Paladin with his extra attack per round from enemy attacking him.

We burn all out 5 x 6d8 Smite slots for that though in first round on level 20 ;).

Yep. That does beat out the EK's avg.(8.d10+17)+(d10+17) = 202 damage w/ Magic Weapon IV.

It's not that hard to count to-hit chance and advantage though. To calculate damage against AC 20 with a to-hit of +10, plug in (https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.1/index.html) "att <enemy AC> <to-hit> <damage>" like this:

avg.(8.att 20 +10 d10+17)+(att 20 +10 d10+17)

and to make the attacks at advantage or disadvantage, just add an "a" or "d" after the "+10"

avg.(8.att 20 +10a d10+17)+(att 20 +10a d10+17)

The app is kind of slow when computing such large values because it's cranking so many numbers. Apologies for that.

[Benny89]

snip

Yes, without SoV attack it's around 185-7 If I remember from previous calculation. Still same as Fighter when he does not burn sup. dices on extra damage which he mostly won't due to -5 from GWM and no way of giving himself advantage on attacks.

So from back of Pegasus SoV attack probably won't trigger much (unless enemy has opportunity/reaction attack on you attacking them which will activate SoV but that is just very rare scenario). However I think sacreficing a little damage and still be on pair or more with fighter in first 3 rounds for EXTREME mobility + flying + being pretty much impossible to hit (560 feets per action is huge distance) is worth a trade.

So I would take Fighter for consistent DPR + Control (since you have enough ASI for Sentinel + Manouvers) but if I would have to chose melee front liner for Nova burst I would take paladin as he has same Nova potential but brings tons of other utilities. Because let's be honest- if you wanna go max Nova- that means boss fight, so who cares about short vs long rest after boss is dead ;)

Anyway, it's nice to have some min-max discussion :). I appreciate it. Thanks for all your input!

[Benny89]

Basically just multiclassing.

What would be best course of action here for that? Sorc? Warlock? And would that add only extra level 1-2 slots or level 4-5 too?

[LudicSavant]

What would be best course of action here for that? Sorc? Warlock? And would that add only extra level 1-2 slots or level 4-5 too?

You can get access to higher level spells. For example, a Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 18 will get access to 9th level spells. Check out the Multiclassing section in the PHB for the rules on how multiclass spell progressions work. Also there are a few guides on Paladin gish builds you might find helpful.

[Galithar]

What would be best course of action here for that? Sorc? Warlock? And would that add only extra level 1-2 slots or level 4-5 too?

Depends on how high you want in Paladin. A Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 (just high enough for the Aura) gets slots as a level 17 caster at max level.
Multiclass into Warlock will generally you're 2 slots only, but they'll refresh on short rest. Sorcerer is a much better multiclass for Paladin in most cases I think. Though Hexblade allows you to attack with your Charisma instead of Str on top of the short rest slots.

Edit: LudicNinja'd 😂

[LudicSavant]

GWF applies to smites by RAW. It is worth noting that this can vary by table, because it's one of those things where JC has posted contradictory rulings on it.

Edit:

Depends on how high you want in Paladin. A Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 (just high enough for the Aura) gets slots as a level 17 caster at max level.
Multiclass into Warlock will generally you're 2 slots only, but they'll refresh on short rest. Sorcerer is a much better multiclass for Paladin in most cases I think. Though Hexblade allows you to attack with your Charisma instead of Str on top of the short rest slots.

Edit: LudicNinja'd 😂

:smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

What would be best course of action here for that? Sorc? Warlock? And would that add only extra level 1-2 slots or level 4-5 too?

If you want to maximize spell slots for smiting, probably Paladin 2/Bard 18, College of Swords. Use two-weapon fighting + Extra Attack to get 3+ attacks per turn, and use all of your bard slots for smiting, plus all of your bardic inspiration dice on Flourishes. (College of Whispers would do way more damage with Psychic Blades, but doesn't get Extra Attack, unless I suppose if you go Paladin 5/Whispers 15.)

But smiting is a bad use of spell slots, even for a full Paladin. I do not recommend this path. Smiting is a reasonably nice thing to have in your toolkit for emergencies, because it has no action economy or concentration economy cost, but in exchange smiting tends to be weaker than other uses of the same spell slots. Compare for example first-level Divine Smite (+2d8 damage) with Thunderous Smite (+2d6 damage plus save or pushed away + prone, for easy melee kiting and/or advantage on allied melee attacks) or Wrathful Smite (+d6 damage plus save or cannot approach plus disadvantage on attacks and ability checks plus lost actions trying to overcome the spell). Or compare third level Divine Smite (+4d8 damage (18)) with Aura of Vitality (heal 70 damage).

[Psikerlord]

At levels that people actually play (ie about 1-10), you cant go wrong with paladin. They're OP or borderline OP. They're good ok.

[LudicSavant]

Some random single-class builds I find effective from 1-20 (already mentioned a Paladin build, so not including another one):

VHuman Arcana Cleric (Tank who takes advantage of the Warcaster/Booming Blade/Potent Spellcasting/SG/SW/Dodge combos, breaks spell effects with their bonus action heals, and eventually gets things like Wish from the Wizard spell list. Important factor here is that Potent Spellcasting can apply its bonus to cantrip damage multiple times, unlike, say, the Evocation Wizard's feature).

Shadar-Kai Samurai Fighter (High init / stealth Sharpshooter that can give themselves Advantage on all of their ranged attacks when they need to, has a teleport that also gives them damage reduction, and gets Elven Accuracy. Also, they have more than enough free ASIs to throw in non-combat utility like Ritual Caster, not to mention grabbing things like Phantom Steed while they're at it. It's not going to make the optimized full casters jealous or anything but it's a very solid, straightforward DPR core for a party).

Hobgoblin Wizard 20 w/ Moderately Armored half feat (At low levels, it's a Wizard with a bigger crossbow and no need to use one of your very limited spell slots on Mage Armor. From level 4 onwards, it's an uninterrupted Wizard progression that has medium armor and a shield, which happens to stack very well with defensive spells like Shield. It also helps that the Hobgoblin gets that excellent +5 to d20 roll 1/SR feature. Basically it's all the goodness of a Wizard, with none of the squishiness... against either saves or attacks).

VHuman Moon Druid Spymaster (In addition to the things they're famous for, Moon Druids have a ton of fun little tricks for playing as masters of intrigue. Also, I really like to grab Observant and maybe even Prodigy as a Druid and push my Passive Perception as high as possible, so that no detail can escape my notice).
Pass Without Trace? Check.
Can be a literal fly on the wall? Check.
Can use little critters and even the castle gardens as spies and informants? Check.
Magical mobility options for second story work? Check.
Can gather information via divinations? Check.
Is very perceptive and insightful? Check.
Is so SAD that aside from Wisdom they can invest in basically any stats they want for skill check purposes? Check.
Has excellent tools to boost all of their ability checks? Check.
Is a master of disguise? Check

And some random general advice:
You're not really going to find any single "best" build, because the real oomph comes from party synergy. For example, a Paladin is really good, but two Paladins is gonna have diminishing returns (those auras don't stack).

[Wub]

Smite is guaranteed damage, though, so it's good for when you need to kill something fast. Or as a pallock, since your spells return on short rest. I play a lore bardadin for skill-monkeying, but I do insane damage if I know it's the last encounter of the day.

Level 6 is always a really good level to hit for pally because you still get 9th level spells on top of the aura, or 7 if you're Ancients. (dat sweet spell resist)

[Benny89]

Question: if you get 1 level of warlock to Paladin- will all spell slots recharge on short rest?

[LudicSavant]

Question: if you get 1 level of warlock to Paladin- will all spell slots recharge on short rest?

No, just the Warlock ones.

[NaughtyTiger]

Question: if you get 1 level of warlock to Paladin- will all spell slots recharge on short rest?

No, just the 1 slot for level-1 pact magic.

[Willie the Duck]

Smite is guaranteed damage, though, so it's good for when you need to kill something fast. Or as a pallock, since your spells return on short rest. I play a lore bardadin for skill-monkeying, but I do insane damage if I know it's the last encounter of the day.

Level 6 is always a really good level to hit for pally because you still get 9th level spells on top of the aura, or 7 if you're Ancients. (dat sweet spell resist)

To clarify, Pal6/full caster 14 still nets you 9th level spell slots (and ancients 7/full caster 13 does not, unless your DM is being kind and letting you round up on you pally levels, despite the generalized MC spell rules*).
*My group has instituted a strong 'DM's discretion/leniency, provided no gaming of the system is occurring' rule, after it was pointed out that a Eldritch Knight 5/Arcane Trickster 5 would have the spell slots of a 2nd level full caster (although it was later pointed out that the MC rules accidentally exclude the possibility of that specific combo).

Smite isn't guaranteed damage, it is guaranteed non-wasted resource (magic missile is guaranteed damage...usually). You still have to successfully hit, you just don't have to decide to spend the resource until after you know you have.

Let's be clear, having the ability to smite is a great option to have available. But it is a niche application -- when you really need/want to nova, you've already crit.-ed and realize that the smite can make the difference between an opponent going down or staying up on more round, or this situation you describe where you know something is the last combat of the day (must be a really secure sleeping area).

[Wub]

Should clarify: 7th level is to get magic resist instead of 9th level slots. (Multiclassing rules for which I just learned slightly earlier. woops)

And the 'last encounter' situation crops up a lot 'cause I do a bunch of one-shot mini-adventures with the group. Small encounters with small resource loss until the boss kinda makes the paladin-mix overly dangerous because they can spend spells much faster than anyone else. I actually need to talk to my DM about that...

But if you are going to go all-out on the BBEG and are a mixed paladin with a lotta spell slots, smite can be pretty fun.

[MaxWilson]

...or this situation you describe where you know something is the last combat of the day (must be a really secure sleeping area).

Or it's just 23:59 at night. :-P

[Willie the Duck]

And the 'last encounter' situation crops up a lot 'cause I do a bunch of one-shot mini-adventures with the group. Small encounters with small resource loss until the boss kinda makes the paladin-mix overly dangerous because they can spend spells much faster than anyone else. I actually need to talk to my DM about that...

But if you are going to go all-out on the BBEG and are a mixed paladin with a lotta spell slots, smite can be pretty fun.

Right. Sorry if I implied a gamestyle was badwrongfun. Merely pointing out that in many-to-most game play styles, you can never be truly sure that the encounters are over.


Or it's just 23:59 at night. :-P

23:59? Gary would be ashamed! Why you're supposed to be able to stay until 03:00 hours if need be, and we'll be rolling random encounter checks until the party makes it back to town, dagnabit! Where's my geritol? :-P

[Wub]

No worries. I just mean to say that for a niche ability, its resource cost is mitigated somewhat by the guarantee it won't be wasted and the fact that situations where it's useful in are much clearer than most. Pretty much anything heavy-hitting enough you want to burn spells to drop. Almost doubling your damage per hit can be a cost-saving decision when each round each party member is burning an ability to hold their ground.

Of course, this is for lower levels. Protracted high-level fights could be very different.

[MaxWilson]

23:59? Gary would be ashamed! Why you're supposed to be able to stay until 03:00 hours if need be, and we'll be rolling random encounter checks until the party makes it back to town, dagnabit! Where's my geritol? :-P

The joke is that 23:59 is the last minute of "the day". A fight that starts at 03:00 is the first fight of the next day. :)

[Willie the Duck]

The joke is that 23:59 is the last minute of "the day". A fight that starts at 03:00 is the first fight of the next day. :)

Whoosh! Right past my head! Thanks for the explanation.

[Dudewithknives]

Whoosh! Right past my head! Thanks for the explanation.

It is kind of dependent on how time is framed in the setting isn't it.

It is not like people in the Forgotten Realms/Grayhawk/whatever walk around with watches, I could easily see "Day" interpreted as dawn to dawn.

[Willie the Duck]

It is kind of dependent on how time is framed in the setting isn't it.

It is not like people in the Forgotten Realms/Grayhawk/whatever walk around with watches, I could easily see "Day" interpreted as dawn to dawn.

No, but I was completely off track (I was thinking people in this hypothetical scenario were wrapping up because it was getting late in IRL the gaming session.

I do believe FR has (or had, no idea if it has stuck around) different rules for when different cleric regain their spells (I suppose based on when their deity/church defines 'new day,' but maybe just when their normal prayer service would be).

[Dudewithknives]

No, but I was completely off track (I was thinking people in this hypothetical scenario were wrapping up because it was getting late in IRL the gaming session.

I do believe FR has (or had, no idea if it has stuck around) different rules for when different cleric regain their spells (I suppose based on when their deity/church defines 'new day,' but maybe just when their normal prayer service would be).

Yeah clerics in FR would remem spells at different times depending on the alignment of their diety.

I think it was dawn, dusk, midnight, but it might have been different, been like 20 years and I only played a cleric twice.

[Benny89]

So is it better to multi 6 Paladin/14 Sorcerer or 6 Paladin/14 Warlock? I think about most spell slots for high level smites.

[MaxWilson]

So is it better to multi 6 Paladin/14 Sorcerer or 6 Paladin/14 Warlock? I think about most spell slots for high level smites.

I was about to answer this, but then I reread my post and re-read the thread title... perhaps start a new thread for this?

[Benny89]

I was about to answer this, but then I reread my post and re-read the thread title... perhaps start a new thread for this?

Point taken.