Making cantrips besides Eldritch Blast appealing options for warlocks

[Belzique]

The title pretty much says it all.

How does one make the other cantrips available to warlocks interesting options to choose instead of Eldritch Blast?

I personally don't find Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast to be overpowered, but when you're a warlock it does make other cantrips kind of non-options. A sorcerer or wizard that chooses to use Ray of Frost instead of Fire Bolt is making a tactical decision to loose only 1-4 damage on average (depending on level of play) for a secondary benefit. A warlock however is choosing to forfeit 1-6 damage (depending on Charisma modifier) on average per blast. It really dissuades people from using anything but Eldritch Blast after 5th level.

So I ask again; how can other cantrips be adjusted to make it worth the consideration for warlock to use them over Eldritch Blast?

[Mr.Spastic]

Short answer: they can't. Eldritch blast is specifically designed for the warlock class in mind to be the best choice. they get two cantrips at first level and the game actively encourages eldritch blast

Long answer: allow eldritch blast invocations to work on other cantrips. The only problem is that it probably won't work. The force damage of eldritch blast makes it better than every other cantrip in the game. Then you add hex and multiple beams and why would you use anything else.

Edit: You could also make specific invocations for other cantrips.

[Thorgrim]

I don't think they need to or should be.

A warlock is not a wizard, they don't have access to a huge quantity and variety of spells. They're more like an eldritch archer, dealing reliable round-over-round damage while having access to a couple powerful spells per combat.

In terms of party role, they're much closer to a martial than a true magic user.

[Man_Over_Game]

That's an uphill battle to fight.


Eldritch Blast has:

120 range, the highest cantrip range in the game (rivaled by Firebolt)
Scales with shots vs. burst damage, working well with things like Hexblade or Invocation on-hit effects, as well as not worrying about missing and wasting your entire turn, as well as not overkilling a weak enemy and wasting the damage. The ONLY time burst damage is better is if something granted your next attack to have advantage (like Inspiration or Help)
Force damage type, the only force damage available to cantrips and is the least resisted/immune damage type in the game.


Celestial TRIES to make Sacred Flame, a decent Cleric-Only cantrip, valid by adding bonuses to radiant damage, and Sacred Flame can ignore cover as long as you have sight, but it doesn't compete in damage, range, damage type, or potential utility when considering the EB knockback, so I still just recommend going EB with the knockback invocation for Celestials unless they really want an extra RP cantrip.

Consider that for a moment; WotC tried to make an entire subclass around radiant damage, offered a free radiant cantrip that works with it, and EB is still better. My signature is literally on the topic of EB being too good.

You could probably afford to reduce it's damage by a die, and people would still probably take it, but at least they might consider something like Firebolt or Frostbite as flavorful options rather that the strictly mechanically better one.

[Rixitichil]

The main thing that makes Eldritch Blast above and beyond the only attack cantrip worth casting as a warlock is the Eldritch Invocations that effect it and only it. It is a strong cantrip before, but with the Invocations no other one can stand close.
The obvious way to make other cantrips worth considering is to homebrew Invocations that modify other cantrips in a similar manner, (be it custom effects like making Ray of Frost slow targets further or changing the existing ones to work on a cantrip specified on selection.) Eldritch Blast is still likely to stay the most common choice, but at least a warlock that picks another cantrip won't be without any options.

[Mr.Spastic]

To expand on my earlier point as well as others. EB is exclusively a warlock cantrip. I would also argue that even if another class got the cantrip it would be worse for them. I don't see EB as good unless a warlock has it. If I was playing a wizard I would probably use firebolt because when it hits it does better damage then shooting multiple beams and hitting with one or two(you would probably use your action to cast a spell anyways). Also, Hex is exclusively warlock as well. The only downside is thatmost warlocks feel the same, just with different fluff. But I would argue that your EB invocations are where you get your variety.

[clash]

The problem here is that Eldritch blast is designed as a class feature, not a cantrip. Asking other cantrips to be comparable to EB for warlocks in particular is like asking how do we make arcane trickster cantrips competitive with sneak attack? Sure there is ways to do it for a specifc subclass or flavor but as a rule there is probably no point.

[Rebonack]

Remake Agonizing Blast into Agony.

Your cantrips deal bonus damage equal to your Warlock level. If a cantrip deals damage multiple times, the bonus damage is divided evenly between potential hits (round up).

That nerfs Eldritch Blast damage slightly at a few levels and makes other attack cantrips pretty solid choices. It further cements the Warlock's position as the 'At Will Caster' by giving them the choice of grabbing other attack cantrips if they feel so inclined without gimping one of their core gimmicks, powerful cantrips. Eldritch Blast is still an amazing choice due to its damage type and synergy with Hex, but now it doesn't leave everything in the dust. If you wanted to expend more effort, you could create one or two utility options for each offensive cantrip the Warlock has access to in the spirit of Repelling Blast and friends.

[Sindal]

While it's all well and good to try and make other cantrips viable, you really have to think of why you would need to do so in the first place.

More options always sound great but when your slapping it onto something that doesn't need it, it'll either hang there and be unused or be so strong that it creates a situation where it becomes 'the new eldrich blast must pick'

Eldritch blast is easier to think of as a class feature and not a cantrip. It's an ability that nearly every warlock, even hexblades, have just because it was designed to compensate for all the drawbacks warlocks naturally have (small spell list, small casting pool, reliant on short rests) to ensure you are ALWAYS some kind of threat.

You could buff the other cantrips or give them specific invocations to do some neat things but at the end of the day warlocks already have a litany of things to choose from for variety and customization (Pact, invocations, Patron spells) to make you feel like you're your own unique warlock.

If you want more variety in terms of spells, pick any of the other casters who are designed to have more tricks up their sleeve and Swiss army knife around while you show up and simply overpower the opposition.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Damage type and range are lesser considerations, I think. Same for invocations like Repelling Blast-- you can just take something else interesting in their place. The thing that takes EB above and beyond is the ability to trigger things like Agonizing as and Hex multiple times per casting.

You would need, I'd say, an invocation like so:

Split Ray: When you cast a cantrip with a range of more than 5ft that deals multiple dice worth of damage, you may choose to make each die a separate effect, which may be targeted as you choose. You must make a separate spell attack, or targets a separate save, for each effect that targets them. Non-damage effects, such as the speed reduction from Ray of Frost, apply to all targets struck by at least one effect, but do not stack if you hit the same target multiple times.

In addition, Agonizing Blast also applies to all damaging cantrips. If you choose to split the effect, each iteration receives the bonus damage, even if all target the same creature.

[Segev]

If you want to make other attack cantrips competitive with eldritch blast for Warlocks, then you need to consider developing Invocations to do unique and interesting things that eldritch blast can't do.

Acid splash already has one unqiue thing amongst Cantrips: at 1st-4th level, it's the only one that can hit multiple targets. (Eldritch blast catches up at level 5, but "only" does 1d10 to each target, while acid splash does full damage to each. EB surpases target count at higher levels.) An Invocation that takes Warlock 5 that expanded acid splash to a 5 foot burst (hitting up to 4 targets) would probably be a reasonable one.

I forget what it's called, but there's a poison cantrip, too, which is so-so. Invocations which make it inflict additional statuses "as long as the target is poisoned" might help. Extending the duration of the poisoned status would also be useful. Emphasizing that it doesn't have to be the poisoned status inflicted by the cantrip to keep the rider effects going would let it have synergy with other poison effects (with longer durations).

An invocation for fire bolt that lets it persist as a 5-foot-square-occupying mini fire-wall that loses 1 die of damage every round until it's gone would be kind-of cool. A further invocation that made it spread into adjacent 5 foot squares each round (perhaps with the Warlock having freedom to choose which ones, in order to control its shape) could also be nifty.

[Mr.Spastic]

Split Ray[/B]: When you cast a cantrip with a range of more than 5ft that deals multiple dice worth of damage, you may choose to make each die a separate effect, which may be targeted as you choose. You must make a separate spell attack, or targets a separate save, for each effect that targets them. Non-damage effects, such as the speed reduction from Ray of Frost, apply to all targets struck by at least one effect, but do not stack if you hit the same target multiple times.

In addition, Agonizing Blast also applies to all damaging cantrips. If you choose to split the effect, each iteration receives the bonus damage, even if all target the same creature.

I like that idea a lot actually. The only thing I would say against it is that EB is force damage which is objectively better. But I like where it is going.

[LudicSavant]

Making other cantrips worthwhile for Warlocks is pretty straightforward design-wise: You just make more cantrip-specific invocations, exactly like Eldritch Blast has... except applying to different cantrips than Eldritch Blast.

[Man_Over_Game]

Making other cantrips worthwhile for Warlocks is pretty straightforward design-wise: You just make more cantrip-specific invocations, exactly like Eldritch Blast has... except applying to different cantrips than Eldritch Blast.

Wouldn't be too hard. Have all the cantrip invocations say something like
"Add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to the damage to your cantrips, damaging a single creature once per casting. You can add your modifier one more additional time per cast at levels 5, 11, and 17".

Effectively, this means that the same levels that EB gets its extra attacks, and the same level that things like Firebolt increase in damage, they both get 2xCharisma Modifier as bonus damage.

Which avoids any stupid loopholes with things like Word of Radiance, Sword Burst, Eldritch Blast, while keeping spells like Firebolt valid. This also allows you to use your Eldritch Blast as a burst spell, putting all of your Charisma damage on a single shot, if you really wanted to. Repeat the same thing for the knockback invocation, but I'd probably make it only apply to attack cantrips, as a knockback Sword Burst would be a very cheap way to imitate Thunderwave. Make the Slow work with all cantrips, so it can be applied to things like Frostbite, but just add a clause that you can only effect a single creature once with this effect per casting.

In this example, both Eldritch Blast and Firebolt would be able to add the modifier to the damage at 5/11/17, and deal exactly the same damage, and the knockback can be applied the same way (with firebolt dealing a single large knockback as opposed with EB doing several small ones). At this point, the only major difference is damage type and flavor.

Another way you could do it, as long as you avoid any stupid bonus 1d4 damage roll effects from some other feat or class ability, is to just change it so that these invocations work per each damage die from the cantrip. It'd still work just fine in all scenarios, as long as you parse out the burst spells or the saving throw spells appropriately.

[LudicSavant]

Wouldn't be too hard. Have all the invocations say something like
"Add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to the damage to your cantrips, damaging a single creature once per casting. You can add your modifier one more additional time per cast at levels 5, 11, and 17".

No. Make invocations that boost a specific cantrip, just like the Eldritch Blast ones do.

[Segev]

No. Make invocations that boost a specific cantrip, just like the Eldritch Blast ones do.

I want to second this, because it's important. One of the things 5e does well is having cool ways to make your PC unique for his choices. Some of these aren't even powerful, just fun. Genericizing the EB Invocations for all damage cantrips is the opposite of this.

It takes more creativity and more willingness to risk balance, but the rewards for having each damage Cantrip the Warlock can know have its own list of Invocations that do unique things and make them more powerful in different ways that only work for that Cantrip will actually create interest in those Cantrips as a focus for a Warlock.

[Man_Over_Game]

And then you're adding a lot of diversity for the class that already has 3 boons, 6 patrons, and 46 invocations, which include things like seeing through magical darkness, learning every ritual spell in the game, having a super familiar that can fly and turn invisible, and casting Disguise Self at will, all available at level 3 as options.

Sure, you can add some more invocations, but is that really what the Warlock needs? With this kind of design set, you'd have to invest in multiple invocations to enhance different cantrips. You could have a special invocation for each cantrip, or just have one invocation that enhances every cantrip.

[Dudewithknives]

Very simple fix, Eldritch Blast should never have been a cantrip in the first place. It should have been a warlock class ability.

No more Warlock 2/ paladin x or sorcerer x or slightly less often bard x just to steal EB and AB + other invocation and leave.

Making it a cantrip that scales with class level was an idiotic design flaw from the beginning.

Actually, let me rephrase, having cantrips scale with character level and not caster level was idiotic.

[LudicSavant]

Sure, you can add some more invocations, but is that really what the Warlock needs?

Yes, it is.

Fire Bolt is still going to be both underpowered and unappealing even if you apply all of the Eldritch Blast invocations to it, because it doesn't synergize with the EB invocations nearly as well as EB does. And you wouldn't want all of those Eldritch Blast invocations to apply to Booming Blade for obvious reasons.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yes, it is.

Fire Bolt is still going to be both underpowered and unappealing even if you apply all of the Eldritch Blast invocations to it, because it doesn't synergize with the EB invocations nearly as well as EB does. And you wouldn't want all of those Eldritch Blast invocations to apply to Booming Blade for obvious reasons.

Sorry, I think there might have been a step you missed in that conversation.


I suggested modifying current invocations to work with all cantrips, limited per use per casting, scaling on number of uses per cast based on level (so EB would be the same with these invocations, but things like Firebolt could use them and be just as good)
People said that we should make invocations for every cantrip
I said making an invocation for every cantrip is stupid, better to have 1 invocation that works for many cantrips, because there's already 46 invocations
You said that we need more invocations, because Firebolt doesn't work with current EB invocation
This post, refer back to bullet 1.

[Mikal]

I think the more important than "how to make other cantrips better" should be "why should other cantrips be better" for the Warlock.

What is the purpose of making other cantrips better? Several class features focus on the EB, and it likely should have been a class feature vs. cantrip, yes we know.

However, why should a warlock's firebolt be comparable? Why should shocking grasp, etc.?

What's the actual thought process behind making the change?

[Vogie]

Yeah, it really depends on what type of mindset you have.

If you're more used to 3.5 or Pathfinder, creating a collection of individual invocations for each individual spell. Agonizing Chill Touch, Agonizing Acid Splash, et cetera.

If you're more used to 5e, something more like "When you cast a cantrip that requires an attack roll, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit" seems perfectly normal.

My own design would be something that's like a hybrid of both - like part of being a warlock would be selecting a specific cantrip that will be available for upgrades, then using invocations to further upgrade that selected cantrip in various ways.


It is worth noting that, if you ignore Hex, Celestial Tome Warlocks can pick up FireBolt, which will keep up with agonizing EB.

[LudicSavant]

Sorry, I think there might have been a step you missed in that conversation. I have not.


I suggested modifying current invocations to work with all cantrips, limited per use per casting, scaling on number of uses per cast based on level (so EB would be the same with these invocations, but things like Firebolt could use them and be just as good) No, it would not be just as good. Under your houserule it's a clear suboptimal option. It is purely mathematically inferior to EB, for pretty obvious reasons. Your "number of uses per cast per level" thing does not resolve this. In fact, your new houserule buffs Eldritch Blast.


You said that we need more invocations, because Firebolt doesn't work with current EB invocation I never said anything even remotely resembling the bolded portion. Please do not straw man me. :smallannoyed:

[Rebonack]

I think the more important than "how to make other cantrips better" should be "why should other cantrips be better" for the Warlock.

What is the purpose of making other cantrips better? Several class features focus on the EB, and it likely should have been a class feature vs. cantrip, yes we know.

However, why should a warlock's firebolt be comparable? Why should shocking grasp, etc.?

What's the actual thought process behind making the change?

Why should a Fighter be able to use weapons other than a greatsword well?

[Man_Over_Game]

I have not.

No, it would not be just as good. Under your houserule it's a clear suboptimal option. It is purely mathematically inferior to EB, for pretty obvious reasons. Your "number of uses per cast per level" thing does not resolve this. In fact, your new houserule buffs Eldritch Blast.

I never said anything even remotely resembling the bolded portion. Please do not straw man me. :smallannoyed:

Sorry, no need to make a big deal out of it. I think you missed this part: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23472644&postcount=14

[Mikal]

Why should a Fighter be able to use weapons other than a greatsword well?

Apples to Oranges comparison. Name class features for a fighter which apply only to greatswords and nothing else. Name class features which require a fighter to only choose greatsword and one other weapon to be proficient in (and in fact can only be used) at level one. Even with that, it's still apples to oranges, but less so.

[LudicSavant]

Sorry, no need to make a big deal out of it. I think you missed this part: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23472644&postcount=14

I did not miss that part. I even quoted it.

You, however, seem to have completely missed the implications of your own houserule...

[clash]

Actually, let me rephrase, having cantrips scale with character level and not caster level was idiotic.

Slightly off topic but I completely agree. The simple fix for this is that cantrips no longer scale and each caster class gets an ability similar to extra attack that increases cantrips at level 5, 11, and 17

[Man_Over_Game]

Slightly off topic but I completely agree. The simple fix for this is that cantrips no longer scale and each caster class gets an ability similar to extra attack that increases cantrips at level 5, 11, and 17

The goal there was to allow multiclassing to feel less weak. Weapon-based classes already have features that work with weapon attacks that often scale with level, and often these effects work together to create interesting combinations (Kensei + Rogue, Battlemaster + Ranger, Reckless Attack + Sneak Attack, etc). Cantrips generally don't work with other classes, and often fall behind in damage compared to weapon attacks that get modifiers to the damage. So if you took a bunch of random levels of various different weapon classes, you'll generally have a few abilities that work with your singular weapon attack, not to mention things like Extra Attack. Despite not having class cantrips, and usually multiclassing into spellcasting classes that do, Paladins rarely use cantrips, even as they are now. An Eldritch Knight's main tool will always be his weapon attack.

On the other hand, taking a bunch of random levels into various spellcasters will probably do nothing for your cantrips. Not to mention this is a nightmare to calculate when including things like Eldritch Knights, Rangers, paladins, Magic Initiate and other 1/2 or 1/3 casters.

[LudicSavant]

Wouldn't be too hard. Have all the cantrip invocations say something like
"Add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to the damage to your cantrips, damaging a single creature once per casting. You can add your modifier one more additional time per cast at levels 5, 11, and 17".

Effectively, this means that the same levels that EB gets its extra attacks, and the same level that things like Firebolt increase in damage, they both get 2xCharisma Modifier as bonus damage.

Which avoids any stupid loopholes with things like Word of Radiance, Sword Burst, Eldritch Blast, while keeping spells like Firebolt valid.

So, this doesn't actually avoid any stupid loopholes, it opens them. And not small loopholes either, I'm talking gaping, enormous loopholes roughly the size of Sleet Storm's radius.

The problem is that what you think you did is this:

In this example, both Eldritch Blast and Firebolt would be able to add the modifier to the damage at 5/11/17, and deal exactly the same damage

And what you actually did is this:

Pre-house rule:
4 bolts hit: 4d10+4*Cha force damage
3 bolts hit: 3d10+3*Cha force damage
2 bolts hit: 2d10+2*Cha force damage
1 bolt hits: 1d10+Cha force damage

Post-house rule:
4 bolts hit: 4d10+4*Cha force damage
3 bolts hit: 3d10+4*Cha force damage
2 bolts hit: 2d10+4*Cha force damage
1 bolt hits: 1d10+4*Cha force damage

Notice the difference? You just buffed Eldritch Blast.. and Fire Bolt is still categorically worse (weaker damage type, worse outcome curve, etc). And you buffed Booming Blade Hexblade dips too.

[Man_Over_Game]

So, this doesn't actually avoid any stupid loopholes, it opens them. And not small loopholes either, I'm talking gaping, enormous loopholes roughly the size of Sleet Storm's radius.

The problem is that what you think you did is this:


And what you actually did is this:

Pre-house rule:
4 bolts hit: 4d10+4*Cha force damage
3 bolts hit: 3d10+3*Cha force damage
2 bolts hit: 2d10+2*Cha force damage
1 bolt hits: 1d10+Cha force damage

Post-house rule:
4 bolts hit: 4d10+4*Cha force damage
3 bolts hit: 3d10+4*Cha force damage
2 bolts hit: 2d10+4*Cha force damage
1 bolt hits: 1d10+4*Cha force damage

Notice the difference? You just buffed Eldritch Blast.. and Fire Bolt is still categorically worse (weaker damage type, worse outcome curve, etc). And you buffed Booming Blade Hexblade dips too.

Part of that was "Damaging a single creature once per casting". I took that as "You can only apply your modifier once per cast, and only against a single creature". That's put in there so that things like Sword Burst can't just AoE a group of enemies for massive damage, just because you technically have 1 damage roll. Then just add an additional modifier bonus to use at the cantrip scaling levels, so EB gets x2 Modifier at level 6, as does Firebolt, and every other damage cantrip. Then just duplicate the same thing for a knockback effect.

Sorry if I didn't make that very clear. I kinda came up with it on the spot.

[LudicSavant]

Part of that was "Damaging a single creature once per casting". I took that as "You can only apply your modifier once per cast, and only against a single creature". That's put in there so that things like Sword Burst can't just AoE a group of enemies for massive damage, just because you technically have 1 damage roll.

Sorry if I didn't make that very clear. I kinda came up with it on the spot.

The issue is this line:


You can add your modifier one more additional time per cast at levels 5, 11, and 17

Effectively, this means that the same levels that EB gets its extra attacks, and the same level that things like Firebolt increase in damage, they both get 2xCharisma Modifier as bonus damage.

This houserule fails on both counts: It buffs things it shouldn't buff, and doesn't actually make competitive the things it's supposed to make competitive.

[Dudewithknives]

Slightly off topic but I completely agree. The simple fix for this is that cantrips no longer scale and each caster class gets an ability similar to extra attack that increases cantrips at level 5, 11, and 17

I disagree with the second part.

Just keep it simple:

Damage scales at the same rate it does now:

ex:

Firebolt: At level 1, 1d10, @5, 2d10, @11, 3d10, and at 17, 4d10.

based on caster level, there is even already a chart in the book for it in the multiclass section.

Sorcerer 1/Fighter 19: 1d10 firebolt
Sorcerer 20: 4d10 firebolt.
Paladin 5/Sorcerer 12: 3d10 firebolt

The only thing that messes things up is EB being totally different because it is a whole different attack at those levels and not just bonus dice, and the invocation that adds a stat.

Just make it a class ability for Warlocks.
Making it a full powered super longbow at level 2 based on a non-combat stat that would make either 3 other classes MAD, or fix a hole in their offense, or both, is bad design.

[LudicSavant]

I want to second this, because it's important.

That it is! :smallsmile:

[Galithar]

Celestial TRIES to make Sacred Flame, a decent Cleric-Only cantrip, valid by adding bonuses to radiant damage, and Sacred Flame can ignore cover as long as you have sight, but it doesn't compete in damage, range, damage type, or potential utility when considering the EB knockback, so I still just recommend going EB with the knockback invocation for Celestials unless they really want an extra RP cantrip.


I'd just like to point out that Sacred Flame doesn't ignore cover per RAW as cover grants bonus to Dex saves as well as AC.


A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws.

This doesn't make anything else you said less true though.

[Unoriginal]

Cantrips are supposed to be the thing casters use when you are out of spell slots or when you want to save your spell slots for later, so that the casters can keep contributing by casting spells rather than having to use a crossbow or the like.

EB is the best damage cantrip because the Warlock is supposed to be able to rely on it A LOT, while other casters' damage cantrips are supposed to be less efficient than a martial's Attack action (so that leveled spells stay the casters' bread and butter), yet still have a save, an AoE, a damage type or an additional that can make them relevant.

If you want to make another cantrip as attractive as EB for Warlocks, you're going to have to make an Invocation to give it EB's "gains more attack rolls when you level" feature, or similar.

Because what makes EB the best isn't it's damage type, it's that it is very reliable, because more attack rolls = more chances at least one goes through.

[Dudewithknives]

I'd just like to point out that Sacred Flame doesn't ignore cover per RAW as cover grants bonus to Dex saves as well as AC.



This doesn't make anything else you said less true though.

EB, is supposed to be better than all other cantrips, it is what the Warlock gets to make up for the fact that the rest of their casting is so limited.

However, it is designed so poorly that anyone can just take 2 levels, get everything great about it and leave to take better classes.

[LudicSavant]

I'd just like to point out that Sacred Flame doesn't ignore cover per RAW as cover grants bonus to Dex saves as well as AC.

Sacred Flame explicitly denies the cover bonus to saves.


The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw.

[Mr.Spastic]

I'd just like to point out that Sacred Flame doesn't ignore cover per RAW as cover grants bonus to Dex saves as well as AC.

Sacred Flame specifically says "It gains no benefit from cover for this save."

[Segev]

And then you're adding a lot of diversity for the class that already has 3 boons, 6 patrons, and 46 invocations, which include things like seeing through magical darkness, learning every ritual spell in the game, having a super familiar that can fly and turn invisible, and casting Disguise Self at will, all available at level 3 as options.

Sure, you can add some more invocations, but is that really what the Warlock needs? With this kind of design set, you'd have to invest in multiple invocations to enhance different cantrips. You could have a special invocation for each cantrip, or just have one invocation that enhances every cantrip.

You're adding diversity, but not versatility. Diversity of options is not a problem; it's a good thing. You're right, the Warlock built with the paradigm of a half-dozen new Invocations for each damage Cantrip will have a lot of options. But the actual build will focus around one Cantrip, still. He won't be the omni-thrower of Cantrip damage; he'll be the fire bolt Warlock, xor the eldritch blast Warlock, xor the poison spray Warlock, etc.

("xor" meaning "exclusive or," as in only one of these options)

You don't invest in multiple invocations to enhance multiple Cantrips. You invest in one Cantrip and its Invocations, exactly as EB-focused Warlocks do now. And the different choices in Cantrips yield different bags of tricks. EB is about controlling enemy movements and targeting multiples. Fire bolt might be about area denial (if you go with my "spreading fire walls" idea). Poison spray would be all about stacking debuffs with the Poisoned condition at its core.

But they're distinct builds. Trying to cram two into one build would be cramped, at best, and losing anything that wasn't blasting, really.

[Guy Lombard-O]

If you want to make another cantrip as attractive as EB for Warlocks, you're going to have to make an Invocation to give it EB's "gains more attack rolls when you level" feature, or similar.

Because what makes EB the best isn't it's damage type, it's that it is very reliable, because more attack rolls = more chances at least one goes through.

That's particularly true when you're spamming an enemy spellcaster in an attempt to break his concentration. More hits = more concentration checks = EB is still king of cantrips.

[Galithar]

Sacred Flame specifically says "It gains no benefit from cover for this save."

That's weird... I just double checked my book and it does not have that line.... Was their an errata on this? Or do I have some weird misprinted handbook?

That's coming from the spells description block, correct?

[KorvinStarmast]

That's weird... I just double checked my book and it does not have that line.... Was their an errata on this? Or do I have some weird misprinted handbook?

That's coming from the spells description block, correct? Crawford confirmed this in a tweet a while back. Read the spell text, all of it. As long as you can see the target, cover doesn't help it since It Is Not A Spell with an Attack Roll. (that is what cover helps you against, Spell Attacks. It basically improves your AC).
So, Sacred flame hits target, nor not, based on a Dex save, not an attack roll.

We have a discussion here about using a mirror to see around corners for Sacred Flame (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/115821/22566), and yes, it works.

[Galithar]

Crawford confirmed this in a tweet a while back. Read the spell text, all of it. As long as you can see the target, cover doesn't help it since It Is Not A Spell with an Attack Roll. (that is what cover helps you against, Spell Attacks. It basically improves your AC).
So, Sacred flame hits target, nor not, based on a Dex save, not an attack roll.

We have a discussion here about using a mirror to see around corners for Sacred Flame (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/115821/22566), and yes, it works.

Again, I read it and the quote that shows the line where it ignores cover Dex ST bonus is NOT in my book (digital, totally not pirated copy of the handbook 😇). I asked for clarification if it was in an errata it just my book is jacked. I confirmed from other sources online that apparently every other source had that line. Again my totally not pirated digital book could be messed up and missing text!
I wasn't arguing, I was shown my mistake and trying to figure out why my printing didn't have that line.

Edit: because cover definitely gives bonus to Dex not just AC. in my original post I quoted the book. So the reason isn't because it's not an attack roll, it's because the spell specifically calls out not being affected by cover.

[LudicSavant]

You're adding diversity, but not versatility. Diversity of options is not a problem; it's a good thing. You're right, the Warlock built with the paradigm of a half-dozen new Invocations for each damage Cantrip will have a lot of options. But the actual build will focus around one Cantrip, still. He won't be the omni-thrower of Cantrip damage; he'll be the fire bolt Warlock, xor the eldritch blast Warlock, xor the poison spray Warlock, etc.

("xor" meaning "exclusive or," as in only one of these options)

You don't invest in multiple invocations to enhance multiple Cantrips. You invest in one Cantrip and its Invocations, exactly as EB-focused Warlocks do now. And the different choices in Cantrips yield different bags of tricks. EB is about controlling enemy movements and targeting multiples. Fire bolt might be about area denial (if you go with my "spreading fire walls" idea). Poison spray would be all about stacking debuffs with the Poisoned condition at its core.

But they're distinct builds. Trying to cram two into one build would be cramped, at best, and losing anything that wasn't blasting, really.

Yeah. If you want to make things besides Eldritch Blast appealing, I'd say that this is probably the most straightforward and effective way to go about it.

[Kane0]

Remake Agonizing Blast into Agony.
Your cantrips deal bonus damage equal to your Warlock level.


Ooh, I like this! Just have to make sure it only applies once per turn to stop it from doubling up with multiple hits like EB. Eould be nice with Acid Splash, Thunderclap and Sword Burst too come to think of it.

And to carry the idea;
Hunger of Hadar: Large or smaller creatures you damage with your cantrips can be pulled 10' closer to you
Lance of Lethargy: Creatures that take Force, Cold or Necrotic damage from your cantrips have their speed reduced by 10' until the end of their next turn
Repelling Blast: Large or smaller creatures that take Force, Fire or Thunder damage from your cantrips can be pushed 10' away from you
Eldritch Spear: Cantrips you cast with a range greater than 10' have their range doubled

And then reduce EB to d8s.

[ad_hoc]

Invocations are powerful and very limited.

Cha to damage on a cantrip is overrated.

XGtE has opened up the quantity of good non-EB cantrips. There are plenty to choose from.

EB itself, while good, isn't that special. Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead are also great damaging cantrips.

PHB only there is more reason to use EB but it still isn't required or anything.

[Galithar]

Invocations are powerful and very limited.

Cha to damage on a cantrip is overrated.

XGtE has opened up the quantity of good non-EB cantrips. There are plenty to choose from.

EB itself, while good, isn't that special. Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead are also great damaging cantrips.

PHB only there is more reason to use EB but it still isn't required or anything.

Decent, not great. And Cha on cantrips when they get 4 attacks isn't really overrated. It's just actually good. It adds 20 damage on four hits. Toll the Dead averages 16 less DPR, more or less, it becomes dependant on what you're fighting whether they have high AC or Saves but let's assume equal chances of success for a more accurate comparison.

[ad_hoc]

Decent, not great. And Cha on cantrips when they get 4 attacks isn't really overrated. It's just actually good. It adds 20 damage on four hits. Toll the Dead averages 16 less DPR, more or less, it becomes dependant on what you're fighting whether they have high AC or Saves but let's assume equal chances of success for a more accurate comparison.

Cantrip damage is just not that important, especially at level 17+.

Close to 0% of the player population plays at those levels, and most of the ones who do will still spend the vast majority of their time at lower levels.

Even 11+ is silly to look at as a baseline.

5-10 is the important bit. Eldritch Blast becomes worse as they go up levels past 5 too. Probably worst at 10, but even at 11 they have an additional 3 level 5 spells (and 1 6th of course) so it loses even more usefulness. Then it gets worse from there again.

[Galithar]

Cantrip damage is just not that important, especially at level 17+.

Close to 0% of the player population plays at those levels, and most of the ones who do will still spend the vast majority of their time at lower levels.

Even 11+ is silly to look at as a baseline.

5-10 is the important bit. Eldritch Blast becomes worse as they go up levels past 5 too. Probably worst at 10, but even at 11 they have an additional 3 level 5 spells (and 1 6th of course) so it loses even more usefulness. Then it gets worse from there again.

For non Warlock full casters sure. Did I miss this not being about making OTHER cantrips good for a Warlock? The class that during the majority of play has an average of one spell slot per encounter?

For them Cha in Eldritch Blast is what keeps them useful. They can't blast away the entire fight. They have to choose one good spell, or blow two if it's a big fight. That leaves 1 or 2 turns per encounter they will be using their cantrip (following the combat lasts 3 rounds paradigm). An extra 5 damage at level 2 is amazing for a Warlock.

Also the reason why it's so important is because it compounds with other bonuses. That's why my level 13 Hexblade can deal 3d10+15+12+3d6 in a turn. (Eldritch Blast, Cha from agonizing, Proficiency from Hexblade curse, hex) sure. The 15 is only part of the damage, but even without the others it nearly doubles my DPR with my cantrip. (Average of 3d10 is 16.5 vs 15 from Cha) if you don't see the strength in that then please show me any other build that would scoff at doubling their at-will DPR, or have easy ways to do it. Maybe I'll get better at building other classes (I spend a lot of time as a Warlock so I know then WAY better then I do other classes)


Also stating made up statistics about high level play does not diminish anything about abilities at high levels. They are still just as useful whether YOU play at that level or not. Because while it may be true that most play is at a lower level, higher levels exist and people do play at them.

[Rebonack]

Ooh, I like this! Just have to make sure it only applies once per turn to stop it from doubling up with multiple hits like EB. Eould be nice with Acid Splash, Thunderclap and Sword Burst too come to think of it.

And to carry the idea;
Hunger of Hadar: Large or smaller creatures you damage with your cantrips can be pulled 10' closer to you
Lance of Lethargy: Creatures that take Force, Cold or Necrotic damage from your cantrips have their speed reduced by 10' until the end of their next turn
Repelling Blast: Large or smaller creatures that take Force, Fire or Thunder damage from your cantrips can be pushed 10' away from you
Eldritch Spear: Cantrips you cast with a range greater than 10' have their range doubled

And then reduce EB to d8s.

Yeah, that's the other way to do it.

Either: Cantrips deal bonus damage equal to your Warlock level once per turn.

OR

Cantrips deal bonus damage equal to your Warlock level, divided between each potential hit/target (round up).

I don't think nerfing EB damage is really needed if we're going this route, since EB damage is already getting nerfed at several levels due to the change in the way the bonus damage works. It might be a decent idea to change up the way Hex triggers/scales, too, so it isn't the exclusive property of Eldritch Blast. Something like reducing the duration to 1 Hour at all levels, have the damage scale with spell level, have it trigger off any damage you deal, and limit it to one trigger per round.

Even with this massive buff to other cantrip options, I imagine most Warlocks would still be limiting themselves to at most two offensive options, maybe three if they're going Tome. The utility you get from the non-combat cantrips is too good to totally pass up.

As an added benefit, because the extra damage scales with Warlock level it prevents dip-cheese from other Charisma casters.



Apples to Oranges comparison. Name class features for a fighter which apply only to greatswords and nothing else. Name class features which require a fighter to only choose greatsword and one other weapon to be proficient in (and in fact can only be used) at level one. Even with that, it's still apples to oranges, but less so.

Got it kinda backwards there.

A core feature of the Fighter is his ability to make four attacks as a single Action whenever he wants.

And (arguably) a core feature of the Warlock is the ability to make four attacks as a single action whenever he wants.

The main difference here, is that the Fighter can use whatever material weapon he likes to bring their damage to the table. That means you can have some pretty healthy variety when it comes to how Fighters do their fighting.

The Warlock, on the other hand, only gets to pick one magical weapon if she wants that high at-will damage. Eldritch Blast. But what if my Warlock is a devotee of Imix? Why should she get mechanical penalties for choosing a magical weapon that aligns with her patron? There are ways to accomplish this that add tremendous breadth of player choice with a minimal investment of complexity.

So why should a Warlock's cantrips all be good? Probably because having really potent all will abilities is sorta the Warlock's thing. The other thing being 'short rest recharging spells'. But let's be real, here. Combat is usually running three to five rounds. That means the Warlock pops off one leveled spell and then tosses cantrips (or Misty Visions if they swing that way) for the next two to four rounds. So wouldn't you say that giving the player eleven great options for That Thing They Do Every Single Round is more desirable than one great option and ten trap options?

[DracoKnight]

It is worth noting that, if you ignore Hex, Celestial Tome Warlocks can pick up FireBolt, which will keep up with agonizing EB.

It really doesn't though. At the level you get that feature, your Fire Bolt will be doing 2d10+CHA (let's assume a +4), or 15 fire damage, which honestly isn't bad. Eldritch Blast, however, will be dealing 1d10+CHA per hit, and that's important. So if you hit with both beams, you'll be dealing 2d10+(CHA*2) to one target (19 force damage), or 1d10+CHA to two different targets (9.5 force damage per target).

And that's not even accounting for Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy, Grasp of Hadar, or any of the other Eldritch Invocations you want to stack on to your Eldritch Blast, since you'll have 3 invocations at 5th level.

Eldritch Blast even pulls ahead prior to 6th level when Celestial gets to add their CHA mod to fire damage.

Fire Bolt will be dealing 1d10 fire damage prior to 5th level, and 2d10 fire damage at 5th level.

Eldritch Blast will be dealing 1d10+CHA force damage prior to 5th level (and doing so as early at 2nd level), and can make 2 attacks at 1d10+CHA as of 5th level.

The argument could be made that at 1st level they're the same, except that a warlock can't get Fire Bolt prior to 3rd level, and they can only get it through Pact of the Tome.

That aside, let's look at their damage types:

Fire Bolt deals fire damage, while Eldritch Blast is dealing force damage. This is important. In the Monster Manual there are 35 monsters that resist fire damage, and 42 creatures that are immune to it. Likewise, in the same book, there are 0 creatures that resist force damage, and only a single creature (I'm not making this up, go look at the Helmed Horror again) that is immune to it.

So, no, Fire Bolt does not keep up with Eldritch Blast by any stretch of the imagination.

[Unoriginal]

We actually do see Warlocks of Imix in-game, and their signature cantrip *is* less powerful than the one of, say, the Warlocks of Raxivort.

[Rebonack]

We actually do see Warlocks of Imix in-game, and their signature cantrip *is* less powerful than the one of, say, the Warlocks of Raxivort.

We aren't discussing what is, but rather what ought to be.

And if I recall correctly, none of the Warlocks I've seen statted up as official monsters were packing Agonizing Blast. Maybe I missed one. Certainly possible!

[Ganders]

One way is to just eliminate EB altogether. Just say that spell doesn't exist in your world. Problem solved. But perhaps you're asking about special circumstances where EB isn't the best. Well, yes, there are certain situations. EB does have weaknesses.

The most cut and dried is that EB can't target objects. Only Fire Bolt does that.

There's also the ranged attack roll. Opponents with high AC, cover, and/or in melee range all make you likely to miss, so you'd be better off casting something with a saving throw.

And here we run into another problem: warlocks are given few alternatives. Poison Spray and Chill Touch are the only other options in the PHB. Chill touch can hardly be considered different because it is also a ranged attack. Stopping regeneration does distinguish it a bit, but probably not enough to choose both. Poison Spray has a save and some warlocks do take it just for that. However, it's a Con save; there is a strong correlation between high AC and high Con saves so it's not actually as big a distinction as it seems.

One way out of this is to give warlocks more choices. If a warlock had access to Fire Bolt he might want it, if only for setting things on fire. If a warlock had the option of using a cantrip with a Dex save, he might use it while in melee or against that cleric in platemail behind cover. If a warlock had a cantrip with a Wis save, he might use it against that rogue in the fog who knows the Shield spell and the Dodge action. (tomelocks sometimes do have these options). BTW, I singled out Wis and Dex because there simply aren't any cantrips that target Int or Cha.

Just putting Fire Bolt, Sacred Flame, and Toll the Dead on the warlock list (perhaps by adding cantrips to the patron expanded spell lists) would work wonders. These are the cantrips that most effectively complement EB rather than try to compete with it. But even if the other cantrips themselves are viable, a warlock is going to want to stack invocations on top of his cantrip. You will need some invocations for the other cantrips, and they need to be roughly as powerful as the EB invocations if they're going to compete.

PS -- if a little more incentive is needed, remember that if Brooch of Shielding exists for Magic Missile, there could easily be something out there for resisting a mere cantrip.

[Greywander]

Celestial TRIES to make Sacred Flame, a decent Cleric-Only cantrip, valid by adding bonuses to radiant damage, and Sacred Flame can ignore cover as long as you have sight, but it doesn't compete in damage, range, damage type, or potential utility when considering the EB knockback, so I still just recommend going EB with the knockback invocation for Celestials unless they really want an extra RP cantrip.

Consider that for a moment; WotC tried to make an entire subclass around radiant damage, offered a free radiant cantrip that works with it, and EB is still better. My signature is literally on the topic of EB being too good.
I haven't read through the whole thread, but I wanted to post my thoughts on this. I see a lot of people trying to add extra damage to these cantrips to make them comparable to EB+AB, but I don't think this is the way to go. Agonizing Blast is a feature of Eldritch Blast, if you want that functionality, then go with EB. If you choose a different cantrip, then it's often because you want a different functionality.

So, here's one possible suggestion regarding Sacred Flame:

Pillar of Fire. When you cast the Sacred Flame spell, you may summon a much larger pillar of radiant fire. You can now target a location you can see within range, and creatures of your choice in a 5-foot radius, 20-foot high cylinder centered on that point must pass a Dexterity saving throw or take the damage from the spell. Broadening the pillar in this way weakens the power of this spell, reducing the damage die from d8 to d6, while focusing the pillar on a single target increases the damage die to d10.

I.e. turns a single-target cantrip into a 10x10x20 AoE cantrip. This can potentially deal much more damage than EB+AB if you catch three or four targets (the 20-foot height won't matter most of the time), but do note that Radiant Soul only applies to one target per casting. EB+AB is still better single-target damage, but I gave Sacred Flame a boost for single-target damage to help make up the difference (and also give you more of a reason not to use the AoE variant in certain situations).

Here's another alternative invocation, albeit more boring:

Searing Fire. When a creature succeeds on their saving throw against your Sacred Flame spell, they take half damage from the spell instead of no damage.

I wouldn't have both of these together, or Sacred Flame would be too OP. However, here's a few other ideas for Sacred Flame invocations:

Guiding Flame. When a creature fails their saving throw against your Sacred Flame spell, they glow with a lingering holy light, shedding dim light in a 10 foot radius. This negates the benefits of invisibility and grants advantage on the next attack roll against that creature. The light fades at the end of your next turn.

Penitent Flame. When a creature fails their saving throw against your Sacred Flame spell and you roll doubles on the damage dice, they fall prone.

Heavenly Judgement. When a creature fails their saving throw against your Sacred Flame spell, then on the next saving throw they make before the end of your next turn, they must roll 1d4 and subtract the number rolled from the result of that saving throw.

The key, as stated above, is to make it different, so that we can have reasons to take one (SF or EB) over the other, not to make them "equal" or make Sacred Flame "better".

[Dudewithknives]

why would you want to make some other spell be as good as the main feature of the class it is in?

For the celestial thing if you want a different cantrip use burning blade.
Assuming pact of the blade:
@6

Let’s say you are using a great sword.

2d6 weapon
1d8 fire
3 from strength
4 from cha to fire

Neighbor takes
1d8 + 4

That is 18.5 damage to primary and 8.5 to the neighbor

Eldritch blast would be (1d10 + 4) x 2 or 19.

@ 12
Invocation for cha to pact weapon keeps it competitive.

Assume a +2 weapon by then. If not there is an invocation to make it at least a + 1.

2d6 weapon
2d8 fire
5 cha to fire
5 cha to pact weapon
4 str on attack
2 from magic weapon

That is 32 to main

Neighbor takes 2d8 + 5 or 14

You could also spend a spell level to smite if you crit for huge numbers. I would not waste the spell slot if I didn’t crit.

Eldritch blast will be (1d10 + 5)x3 or 31.5.

Also to not that certain assimar can use a racial ability to add radiant damage to an attack/spell so it would also automatically add cha to damage when you need it.