Fencer Build

[Xenothelm]

Considering a Multiclass build for this concept of Battlemaster Fighter and Horizon Walker Ranger with the Rapier. Not really interested in min/maxing for damage as I really like the utility available from BM and the buffs/augments from HW.

The main thing I'm trying to figure out is when to start taking the ranger levels. After my first Extra Attack? My second?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bz9T2ojQwlGAlJltlAr93QUrNWX9oyk8oC7Qh_hIK4U/edit?usp=sharing

[Ganymede]

Why even take ranger levels? What purpose would it serve? How will it make your PC more fencery?

[lunaticfringe]

I would MC after Fighter 6, 8, or 11/12 depending on how high of level the campaign is going to & how I felt about my combat performance.

You Ranger levels are kinda just adding a bit of utility. If UA is available check out Scout Fighter from kits of old. It's fairly easy as a fighter to add Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate for a of added utility.

[clash]

It depends which feature you want in either class, but regardless fighter has really strong class levels right until level 7. So level 6 fighter can be a great point to jump out at and start getting your toes wet in ranger. Otherwise depending on how long the camapign is I would stick with fighter through level 11 cause those perks are just too good.

[Xenothelm]

Why even take ranger levels? What purpose would it serve? How will it make your PC more fencery?

Rangers have some good options for bonus actions that don’t overlap with the fighter features in addition to somewhat more exclusive spellcasting options like Hunter’s Mark and Zephyr’s Strike. I was worried about dmagae resistant enemies and HW allows for an attack to be fully force damage.

[Xenothelm]

If UA is available check out Scout Fighter from kits of old. It's fairly easy as a fighter to add Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate for a of added utility.

I think UA might be off the table but will take a look! I thought Scout was a Rogue thing o_O

[lunaticfringe]

I think UA might be off the table but will take a look! I thought Scout was a Rogue thing o_O

There is a UA with a Fighter version it gets Ranger tricks & Superiority Dice. There is Also a Monster Hunter Fighter that is my personal favorite fighter Subclass. Linkage...

Scout (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/kits-old)

Monster Hunter (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/gothic-heroes)

[Wub]

If it's a dip it won't really hurt your character. I'd get to Ranger 3 early, like before your second attack early, when damage-resist monsters start appearing and before you have guaranteed access to magic weapons.
Also, scout rogue is Xanathar's Guide so is usable. Rogue's a bit more appealing as a multiclass since it doesn't overlap as much, gives you (possibly) crazy damage, and helps you move/disengage with your bonus action.

[Xenothelm]

Rogue's a bit more appealing as a multiclass since it doesn't overlap as much, gives you (possibly) crazy damage, and helps you move/disengage with your bonus action.

Rogue admittedly has great options, but I do like that I can still do a soft disengage with Zephyr Strike off the ranger spell list. I think I just had an itch for spellcasting with this character lol.

[djreynolds]

I might include 5-6 levels of swashbuckler, uncanny dodge is awesome. You could grab defensive duelist also.

College of swords defensive flourish is nice as well

I might try 3 battlemaster, 6 bard (grab short rest inspiration at 5th, and extra attack at 6th), 6 swashbuckler.

You can go defensive style and duelist style, grab expertise in athletics (an 8 strength with expertise is as good as fighter with a 20 strength)

[Dudewithknives]

Rogue admittedly has great options, but I do like that I can still do a soft disengage with Zephyr Strike off the ranger spell list. I think I just had an itch for spellcasting with this character lol.

Rogues can bonus action disengage at level 2.

Swashbuckler rogue is amazing, especially with fighter backup.

Or if you really want to stick with the casting in there, take Arcane Trickster.

[Malifice]

Rogue admittedly has great options, but I do like that I can still do a soft disengage with Zephyr Strike off the ranger spell list. I think I just had an itch for spellcasting with this character lol.

Surely Swashbuckler rogue is better in every conceivable way to Ranger? Thematically and for disengaging often etc.

[Malifice]

BM Fighter 5/ Swashbuckler Rogue 15 does the trick.

Precise strike, riposte and feinting strike are thematic and potent manouvers to take.

[Arkhios]

Having been an actual fencer mysef, I have to agree that I don't see anything "fencer-y" in Horizon Walker itself, as cool as the sub-class is otherwise. But I'm not here to judge, just to say my own preference with my personal experience considered. I would much rather go with Rogue (Swashbuckler) as a multiclass -- or fully, because the whole sub-class is themed around pirates and musketeers, who quite often did wield rapiers and fought with a tell-tale fencing style: Facing a foe sideways, being a narrow target to them, with rapier in front of them and a dagger (or just a free hand) hidden behind them.

[NiklasWB]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with everyone advocating Battlemaster / Swashbuckler. Horizon walker is great, but nothing about it says fencer… It's more a ranger with some teleportation.

I'm playing a Battlemaster / Swashbuckler myself right now and it's a blast. We just recently got to level 8 (I'm doing Battlemaster 5 / Swashbuckler 3), and the build is essentially "done" now, everything else is gravy. I'm using a rapier one handed and have a fluffed duelist's vambrace (shield, so +2 AC). I make two attacks per turn, almost always get sneak attack on one of them, can disengage or dash away all the time, I use Riposte when enemies miss me, have Precision attack for when I really need to hit something, and Disarming attack for flavor. I'm planning on taking Menacing attack, Trip attack and Pushing attack at later levels. All in all, I really feel like a duelist/fencer when I play this character. You are extremely mobile (60 feet of movement usually, and expertise in acrobatics and athletics), attack a lot and do good damage through extra attack, sneak attack and superiority dice. I also have a +1 rapier that has a crit range of 19-20, which is just awesome for this build. I totally recommend this for a fencer build.

[CTurbo]

I was thinking Swashbuckler/Bladesinger


Swashbuckler/Battlemaster would be awesome too and much more straight forward.

[Xenothelm]

THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN lol. Battlefield mobility can be just as much a great utility.

Now this PC happens to be a Halfling and with only 25ft movement, I've got my eye on the Scouts additional movement features (Skirmisher and Superior Mobility). Swashbuckler also warrants some CHA investment and I'd like to be able to focus on Feats for the ASI boosts as I'm already starting with 20DEX :)

[carrdrivesyou]

When I think fencing (and I was a fencer back in Minnesota), I think precision. I think of a graceful fighter that doesn't make many mistakes. I think lightly armored. Agile and deft.

I would suggest a Lightfoot Halfling paladin, probably oath of Vengeance for things like Hunter's mark. You also get your extra attack and a decent spell selection, and shield proficiency to boot. With the halfling's Luck trait, you should be able to turn some of those fumbles into hits instead.

Just my two cents.
-Carr

[nickl_2000]

Let me throw one more weird option out there that isn't mentioned at all, feel free to ignore at will :)

A Monk, particular a Kensai would be for a really, really good fencer build. They are extremely agile, lightly (not at all) armored, extremely mobile, wield a shortsword at level 1 and 2 then a rapier once they get Kensai levels. You can easily fluff the bonus action unarmed strikes as pummel smashes or a punch with the guard of the weapon.

[Xenothelm]

I would suggest a Lightfoot Halfling paladin, probably oath of Vengeance for things like Hunter's mark. You also get your extra attack and a decent spell selection, and shield proficiency to boot. With the halfling's Luck trait, you should be able to turn some of those fumbles into hits instead.

Just my two cents.
-Carr


A Monk, particular a Kensai would be for a really, really good fencer build. They are extremely agile, lightly (not at all) armored, extremely mobile, wield a shortsword at level 1 and 2 then a rapier once they get Kensai levels. You can easily fluff the bonus action unarmed strikes as pummel smashes or a punch with the guard of the weapon.

Love these ideas!

[Dudewithknives]

It is sad that 5e has been around this long and still no Duelist subclass yet.

Kind of a core staple class in my opinion.

Should be fighter or rogue in my opinion but rogue already has swashbuckler so probably fighter.

[Pelle]

It is sad that 5e has been around this long and still no Duelist subclass yet.

Kind of a core staple class in my opinion.

Should be fighter or rogue in my opinion but rogue already has swashbuckler so probably fighter.

Kensei Monk.

[Dudewithknives]

Kensei Monk.

Kensei is a garbage subclass, it has the look but it sucks at doing the job.

[Arkhios]

It is sad that 5e has been around this long and still no Duelist subclass yet.

Kind of a core staple class in my opinion.

Should be fighter or rogue in my opinion but rogue already has swashbuckler so probably fighter.

In all honesty, I'd argue one shouldn't look too much into the naming of sub-classes, because Swashbuckler is quite remarkable duelist on its own right.
One of their key abilities is that they can land sneak attacks even if no other allies are near their target. The meaning of duelist implies that you are fighting someone alone. A Swashbuckler can do that. And well.

[Dudewithknives]

In all honesty, I'd argue one shouldn't look too much into the naming of sub-classes, because Swashbuckler is quite remarkable duelist on its own right.
One of their key abilities is that they can land sneak attacks even if no other allies are near their target. The meaning of duelist implies that you are fighting someone alone. A Swashbuckler can do that. And well.

I just see Duelist as more of a multiple solid attacks kind of build with counterattacks, not so much the skills expert sneak attacker.

I made a duelist essentially for a long game a while back and went swashbuckler, it was great but just a little off to me for some reason.

[CTurbo]

Bladesinger/EK Fighter would be great too!

[Arkhios]

I just see Duelist as more of a multiple solid attacks kind of build with counterattacks, not so much the skills expert sneak attacker.

That sounds, hands down, pretty much like a Battle Master with at least Parry and Riposte maneuvers. When enemies damage you, you use reaction to reduce the damage taken (Parry) and when they miss you, you make a "counterattack" (Riposte). As a fighter, you have multiple solid attacks baked into the class itself.

Why try to re-invent the wheel?

[Xenothelm]

That sounds, hands down, pretty much like a Battle Master with at least Parry and Riposte maneuvers. When enemies damage you, you use reaction to reduce the damage taken (Parry) and when they miss you, you make a "counterattack" (Riposte). As a fighter, you have multiple solid attacks baked into the class itself.

This was my main idea for the concept; utilizing those maneuvers whenever possible.

Parry is admittedly a weaker version of some of the Rogue’s evasive abilities so I don’t mind dipping into maybe Scout for the extreme mobility.

[Bloodcloud]

It is sad that 5e has been around this long and still no Duelist subclass yet.

Kind of a core staple class in my opinion.

Should be fighter or rogue in my opinion but rogue already has swashbuckler so probably fighter.

Swashbuckler feels rather duelist-y no?

[Xenothelm]

Swashbuckler feels rather duelist-y no?

It has some similar mobility features to Scout. I’m running a Halfling so I think the Scout features will help me more with a base 25ft movement.

[Vogie]

I'd do Battlmaster 5 / Bladesinger 2 / Battlemaster X

Play it like a Spell-less Wizard, with the "spells" being techniques and supernatural physique... things like Mage armor, Feather fall, Shield, longstrider, jump, et cetera. Bladesong is refluffed as a fencer's stance.

[Dudewithknives]

I'd do Battlmaster 5 / Bladesinger 2 / Battlemaster X

Play it like a Spell-less Wizard, with the "spells" being techniques and supernatural physique... things like Mage armor, Feather fall, Shield, longstrider, jump, et cetera. Bladesong is refluffed as a fencer's stance.

That idea sounds very good, I like that.

I might steal that for later use, use spells for mostly utility and defense, blade dance for artistic blade flourishes and things.

Cool Idea.

[Malifice]

Kensei is a garbage subclass, it has the look but it sucks at doing the job.

Come again?

[Dudewithknives]

Come again?

You and I, (I think it was you anyway) have had this exact arguement before, do we really need to start it again?

[guachi]

I almost always DM, but the one PC I’ve managed to play (it was in AL) was a Battlemaster/Swashbuckler.

He was a Sailor and took parry/riposte/precision. I had loads of fun and all my options were good options depending on the situation. I added fun features at basically every level (5 BM, then SB).

Seeing others say the same about a BM/SB, it’s clear it’s not a unique PC. But it is really fun.

[Xenothelm]

He was a Sailor and took parry/riposte/precision. I had loads of fun and all my options were good options depending on the situation. I added fun features at basically every level (5 BM, then SB)

Did you feel like you had any issue with Piercing resistances or was that kind of negligible?

[Wub]

Piercing resistance as in damage type resistance? 'Cause 5e doesn't make it too bad, otherwise rogues would have a terrible time. Have your caster prepare magic weapon if you ever run into a monster with nonmagical weapon resist. Anything that resists magical weapons is probably verra scary already, and likely has magic resistance as well.

*edit: oh this might help
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage

[guachi]

Did you feel like you had any issue with Piercing resistances or was that kind of negligible?

No, because I was able to use my AL DM rewards to give myself a +1 rapier from level 1 onward.

[Xenothelm]

*edit: oh this might help
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage

Bookmarked!


No, because I was able to use my AL DM rewards to give myself a +1 rapier from level 1 onward.

Mine is an independent campaign, though it sounds like enemy resistances aren't a huge concern, especially at early levels so dipping into Scout is definitely a safe bet :)

[Arkhios]

Bookmarked!



Mine is an independent campaign, though it sounds like enemy resistances aren't a huge concern, especially at early levels so dipping into Scout is definitely a safe bet :)

More damage cures any damage resistance problems :smallwink:

[Xenothelm]

More damage cures any damage resistance problems :smallwink:

lol even when it's cut in half?

[Arkhios]

lol even when it's cut in half?

Exactly then it does.

Let me rephrase:

If you have sneak attack, your attack deals more damage, thus even with the damage getting halved you're more likely to deal more damage than without sneak attack.

Example:
Rapier 1d8 + Sneak Attack 1d6 deals an average of 8 damage (4.5+3.5)

Rapier deals an average of 4 damage (4.5)

If you add resistance on both, you'll see my point.

Edit: note, I left ability modifier out on purpose, because it would add nothing to the example.