How to best allocate attribute points for Half-Elf Paladin?

[Benny89]

Help me optimize Paladin build (Vengeance PAM/GWM paladin). Point Buy.

Should I start with 17 CHA and boost it later to 18 using Resilent (CHA)? Or I won't be able to after taking ASI for STR? Should I have 10 WIS or bump it to 12?

I am lost a little to optimize that because paladins are so MAD.

[thoroughlyS]

Help me optimize Paladin build (Vengeance PAM/GWM paladin). Point Buy.
This is pretty sparce information for build recommendations. Best I can recommend right now is:

STR 16 (15 + 1)
DEX 10
CON 14 (13 + 1)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16 (14 + 2)

Go for Polearm Master, and then Great Weapon Master.

Should I start with 17 CHA and boost it later to 18 using Resilent (CHA)? Or I won't be able to after taking ASI for STR? Should I have 10 WIS or bump it to 12?
Resilient (CHA) is worthless on a Paladin because they get Wisdom and Charisma saving throws already.

I am lost a little to optimize that because paladins are so MAD.
Paladins aren't MAD, they only need a good attack stat (STR or DEX) and a good CHA. They have a good hit die and heavy armor, so DEX and CON are optional, and after 6th level, their saves all become CHA based.

[Benny89]

This is pretty sparce information for build recommendations. Best I can recommend right now is:

STR 16 (15 + 1)
DEX 10
CON 14 (13 + 1)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16 (14 + 2)

Go for Polearm Master, and then Great Weapon Master.

Resilient (CHA) is worthless on a Paladin because they get Wisdom and Charisma saving throws already.

Paladins aren't MAD, they only need a good attack stat (STR or DEX) and a good CHA. They have a good hit die and heavy armor, so DEX and CON are optional, and after 6th level, their saves all become CHA based.

Thanks, but CON I think is important for concentration, yes? And to keep your spells, like bless, haster, oath spells etc. you should get decent CON I think. Am I correct?

So maybe 15 CON and then take Resilent sp you get 16, prof in con and bonus from CHA to that on top?

Maybe like: 16, 10, 15, 8, 10, 16 ?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Should I start with 17 CHA and boost it later to 18 using Resilent (CHA)?

I think maybe you meant Elven Accuracy? Gives you that +1 Cha you want, and the triple advantage for making those smites really sting.

[Benny89]

I think maybe you meant Elven Accuracy? Gives you that +1 Cha you want, and the triple advantage for making those smites really sting.

Hm, no, but thanks for mentioning that. But I checked EA and it says:

"Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once"

So for STR based Paladin (polearm master) it seems useless?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Hm, no, but thanks for mentioning that. But I checked EA and it says:

"Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once"

So for STR based Paladin (polearm master) it seems useless?

Right, sorry. I'm so used to mixing in a level of hexblade with my paladin I forgot about that. (obviously, can't use PAM/GWM for that either).


Is this campaign going to higher levels (12+)? Because you're right, you'll have a hard time getting that last point of Cha until at least 12 or 16 level:
4th PAM
8th GWM
12th +2 Str? Maybe Resilient Con?

That last point of Cha is going to be a really long time coming. I think I'd go with that 14+2 Cha. Or maybe go Vhuman instead?

[Benny89]

Right, sorry. I'm so used to mixing in a level of hexblade with my paladin I forgot about that. (obviously, can't use PAM/GWM for that either).


Is this campaign going to higher levels (12+)? Because you're right, you'll have a hard time getting that last point of Cha until at least 12 or 16 level:
4th PAM
8th GWM
12th +2 Str? Maybe Resilient Con?

That last point of Cha is going to be a really long time coming. I think I'd go with that 14+2 Cha. Or maybe go Vhuman instead?

We are not allowed to multiclass sadly. What is that hexblade/paladin combo?

[Corran]

You said you are planning for GWM and PAM, which is a good idea for a vengeance paladin IMO. But I would say that you also need resilient CON, so that you can boost you concentration checks for when haste comes into play, also because CON saves are the most often targeted in the game and some effects that target CON saves can be really nasty. Given you want to play a halfelf, I would go for GWM @lvl 4, resilient CON @lvl 8 and PAM @lvl 12 (one level after you get IDS; that's good timing).
Edit: Maybe you can play around a bit with the order in which you take these 3 feats, but make sure you are really cautious about casting haste if you don't have resilient con.

After that I would take 2 str bumps with my remaining ASI's, assuming you don't have a str-boosting item by that time.

So, given that I would definitely take resilient con, I would do it like this:

STR 15 + 1 = 16
DEX 10
CON 14 + 1 = 15 (eventually adding another +1 from resilient and thus bringing it to 16)
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 14 + 2 = 16

[Benny89]

You said you are planning for GWM and PAM, which is a good idea for a vengeance paladin IMO. But I would say that you also need resilient CON, so that you can boost you concentration checks for when haste comes into play, also because CON saves are the most often targeted in the game and some effects that target CON saves can be really nasty. Given you want to play a halfelf, I would go for GWM @lvl 4, resilient CON @lvl 8 and PAM @lvl 12 (one level after you get IDS; that's good timing).
Edit: Maybe you can play around a bit with the order in which you take these 3 feats, but make sure you are really cautious about casting haste if you don't have resilient con.

After that I would take 2 str bumps with my remaining ASI's, assuming you don't have a str-boosting item by that time.

So, given that I would definitely take resilient con, I would do it like this:

STR 15 + 1 = 16
DEX 10
CON 14 + 1 = 15 (eventually adding another +1 from resilient and thus bringing it to 16)
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 14 + 2 = 16

That's what I was thinking. At first I would take PAM on level 4, then on level 8 [Resilence] CON because at level 9 I get Haste so it's best to have that Conc for it and then on level 12 I would get GWM. Last two ASI would be CHA+2 and STR +2.

In case I could take Vuman I would go 1st level PAM, 4th level GWM, 8th level Resilence and 12 level CHA+2. And last 2 ASI for +2 str unless I had some STR boosting item.

[Sception]

I do not reccomend pam/gwm for a paladin of any sort, especially if you also plan on grabbing resilient con and double especially if you arent playing a variant human. 16 attack stat is great for level 1, but its pants for level 15, especially if you plan to be taking on a -5 penalty to hit on top of that. Even with advantage, that's not great. A paladin cannot live on crits alone.

And that's just strength lagging, you're also neglecting cha, and with it a number of good spellcasting options and class features. PAM/GWM with smites is a nice combo, but not worth letting both your attack stat and many of your class features wither on the vine.

IMO, leave the feat intensive combos to the fighter with their bonus ASIs to power them, and stick to your raw-stat-powered paladin abilities. Maybe just PAM, but even that's iffy when resilient con is so valuable to a paladin, on top of badly wanting both attack stats to eventually hit 20 if at all possible, the sooner the better for weapon attack.

[Benny89]

I do not reccomend pam/gwm for a paladin of any sort, especially if you also plan on grabbing resilient con and double especially if you arent playing a variant human. 16 attack stat is great for level 1, but its pants for level 15, especially if you plan to be taking on a -5 penalty to hit on top of that. Even with advantage, that's not great. A paladin cannot live on crits alone.

And that's just strength lagging, you're also neglecting cha, and with it a number of good spellcasting options and class features. PAM/GWM with smites is a nice combo, but not worth letting both your attack stat and many of your class features wither on the vine.

IMO, leave the feat intensive combos to the fighter with their bonus ASIs to power them, and stick to your raw-stat-powered paladin abilities. Maybe just PAM, but even that's iffy when resilient con is so valuable to a paladin, on top of badly wanting both attack stats to eventually hit 20 if at all possible, the sooner the better for weapon attack.

Actually it's not true. GWM is great but you have to know when to use it. Here is good guide or when to GWM and when to not: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472938-Great-Weapon-Mastery-How-to-5-10-Like-a-Pro

The Oath of Vengence free advantage on attacks also helps GWM Paladin. I wouldn't take GWM for other subclass.

Basicelly there is a AC threshold you can calculate where you are better using GWM vs not using it.

Since I want to build Vengeance paladin for maximum damage - it matters. While 16 STR is not impressive, most damage comes from Smites anyway which I will be spamming vs strong enemies and vs smaller lower AC enemies I will be using GWM with Advantage from Oath or my party spells (like Fearie Fire etc.).

Also PAM is super important because it combos with Vengeance paladin opportunity attacks and one more attack (even if 1d4) is one more smite.

Also I don't think resilent is worth before 9th level (my opinion) as I will be using it mostly to keep Haste on which is 9th level. So grabbing Res on 8th level seems like better solution. But that just my take.

And here is Anydice Fighter BM vs Veng. Pala (both PAM, GWM) damage vs damage: https://anydice.com/. Paladin still wins that race, though Fighter can regain AS on short rests.

[Wildarm]

Help me optimize Paladin build (Vengeance PAM/GWM paladin). Point Buy.

Should I start with 17 CHA and boost it later to 18 using Resilent (CHA)? Or I won't be able to after taking ASI for STR? Should I have 10 WIS or bump it to 12?

I am lost a little to optimize that because paladins are so MAD.

Edit:
I had originally suggested a strength based crit fisher build but of course Elven Accuracy doesn't apply to STR based attacks. You'll need to go Hexblade 3+ to get Elven accuracy working with a heavy weapon/polearm. You could possibly rework the stats and the order of feats:

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 17

Veng Pally 8 Then Blade lock 4
Lv4 PAM, Lv8 GWM, Lv12 Elven Accuracy

To be honest, if you're really keen on a PAM/GWM Pally usable at lower levels, I'd recommend going Variant Human to be honest:

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16

Take PAM at level 1
GWM, +2STR, +2STR at levels 4/8/12

You should be able to use GWM on most low-medium armor foes at level 4 with this build. Higher if you use your Oath or have Bless running.

[Benny89]

For a Vengeance Half-Elf, the most optimized build is likely a crit fisher.

Str 16
Con 16
Dex 8
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 15

Feats - Elven Accuracy, PAM, GWM

Prioritizing feats means you'll be swinging a bit below optimal with only 16 in your primary stat and wanting to use GWM. Tri-Vantage via your Vow of Enmity can make up for it but that is limited to one big enemy every other battle(or so). Casting Bless(or having someone else cast it) will help a lot as well. In additional you'll crit roughly 25% of the time which is great for piling on smite damage. By level 12 you should have a decently high attack bonus(through proficiency, magic items, spells) to use GWM reliably. Earlier will likely be too swinging against any opponent with a reasonable AC.

To be honest, if you're really keen on a PAM/GWM Pally usable at lower levels, I'd recommend going Variant Human to be honest:

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16

Take PAM at level 1
GWM, +2STR, +2STR at levels 4/8/12

Cast Bless at the start of any fight you plan to use GWM at lower levels.

But elven accuracy doesn't work on Strength.

[Wildarm]

But elven accuracy doesn't work on Strength.

Lol, so used to warlock dip to get rid that restriction. Reworked the post.

[Willie the Duck]

Help me optimize Paladin build (Vengeance PAM/GWM paladin). Point Buy.
...
I am lost a little to optimize that because paladins are so MAD.

Based on what you've posted before, I would simply do
STR 15+1=16
DEX 10
CON 15+1=16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 15 + 2 = 16
ASIs: 4-PAM 8-GWM 12-+2Str 16-+2 Str 19-+2 Cha

It sounds like your primary focus is combat build (nova/smite in particular), and your paladin bonus to saves will suffice to not worry about Dex, Int, and Wis saves (and without worrying about concentration, it's sufficient for your Con saves as well).

If you weren't going PAM/GWM, I'd suggest starting with a 15 Con, take resilient:con, and have some more room to play with other stats or other feats. However, a non-V.human trying to do PAM/GWM takes so long to get going (and you really want to get 18+ combat stat by level 12 unless you can be assured gauntlets of ogre power), I just don't see room for resilient:conuntil so late in the game that it isn't important (and you might as well just go +2 cha instead).

[HappyDaze]

I used standard array rather than point buy, but the H-E Paladin I built looks almost the same:

Str 16 (15 + 1)
Dex 10
Con 14 (13 +1)
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16 (14 + 2)

Sure, it could be optimized a bit more with point buy, but the differences will be minimal.

[strangebloke]

When it comes to paladins, you can either emphasize the caster aspect or the martial aspect.

A caster focused build will have a spread like 16/12/14/8/10/16 and will take feats like warcaster, resilient:con, and will Max charisma. Subclasses like conquest, ancients, and devotion work very well for this, and you're probably best with a sword and board weapon load out. Works best for a sorcadin multiclass, imo. Spells will mostly be used for buffs and debuffs.

A martial focused build will have the same spread, but will go for Pam, gwm, elven accuracy, etc, and will often have a level of hexblade. A martial paladin will usually use a polearm or heavy weapon. With no hexblade level, the martial focused paladin will max strength first. Vengeance paladins and devotion paladins make for the best martial paladins. Most spells will be expended as smites.

You can also run a dexterity paladin build. The dexterity based passion caster will probably start out in medium armor and still boat charisma first. The martial dexterity paladin focuses dexterity before charisma, and... Isn't great, TBH. The only real upsides are that you'll be good at stealth and won't be useless at range, but you still won't be very good at either of those things, and the only feat support for a dexterity based martial paladin is elven accuracy.

[Benny89]

When it comes to paladins, you can either emphasize the caster aspect or the martial aspect.

A caster focused build will have a spread like 16/12/14/8/10/16 and will take feats like warcaster, resilient:con, and will Max charisma. Subclasses like conquest, ancients, and devotion work very well for this, and you're probably best with a sword and board weapon load out. Works best for a sorcadin multiclass, imo. Spells will mostly be used for buffs and debuffs.

A martial focused build will have the same spread, but will go for Pam, gwm, elven accuracy, etc, and will often have a level of hexblade. A martial paladin will usually use a polearm or heavy weapon. With no hexblade level, the martial focused paladin will max strength first. Vengeance paladins and devotion paladins make for the best martial paladins. Most spells will be expended as smites.

You can also run a dexterity paladin build. The dexterity based passion caster will probably start out in medium armor and still boat charisma first. The martial dexterity paladin focuses dexterity before charisma, and... Isn't great, TBH. The only real upsides are that you'll be good at stealth and won't be useless at range, but you still won't be very good at either of those things, and the only feat support for a dexterity based martial paladin is elven accuracy.

Why so many people recommend Elven Accuracy where it does not work with Strength rolls? It only works with DEX, INT, CHA and WIS if I remember correctly.

But of course thank you for your tips! And why level of hexblade?

[HappyDaze]

Why so many people recommend Elven Accuracy where it does not work with Strength rolls? It only works with DEX, INT, CHA and WIS if I remember correctly.

But of course thank you for your tips! And why level of hexblade?

The hexblade level makes you weapon attacks base off of Cha. And then Elven Accuracy works.

[Willie the Duck]

Why so many people recommend Elven Accuracy where it does not work with Strength rolls? It only works with DEX, INT, CHA and WIS if I remember correctly.

But of course thank you for your tips! And why level of hexblade?

People keep missing that you are talking about a no-multiclassing build, and 1-3 levels of hexblade is the popular paladin MC at the moment.

The why is simple: With 1 level of hexblade, you can use your charisma as your combat stat with one-handed weapons. With 3 levels (and picking pact of blade at level 3) you can use your charisma as your combat stat with two-handed weapons. This allows paladins to be less MAD, and also for elven/half-elven paladins to use the Elven Accuracy feat with their attacks (since they are no longer strength rolls).

Even when you can multiclass, doing so is a decision with some real opportunity costs (a 1-3 level dip can be pretty harsh, particularly since you need to do it early in your career if you are keeping your strength at a minimum, and that directly competes with getting your feats). If it didn't also provide an answer for your ranged attacks, I don't think it would be as popular as it is.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Why so many people recommend Elven Accuracy where it does not work with Strength rolls? It only works with DEX, INT, CHA and WIS if I remember correctly.

But of course thank you for your tips! And why level of hexblade?

No, you're right about Elven Accuracy. I think the problem (as you've noted somewhere above) is that so many people dip a level (or two, or three) of Hexblade to make this work.

Since nobody is actually stating it here, the idea of the Hexblade dip is that Hex Warrior lets you use your Cha for attack & damage rolls - but for a non-heavy weapon. So people sort of dump Str & Dex, pump the *^#* out of Cha, and use it for everything (usually for Eldritch Blast to cover the problem of Paladins lacking ranged attacks, as well).

This leads to (mostly) a sword & board build (maybe with Dueling FS to make up some for the lost GWM damage). If you max Cha quickly, you can get +7 to damage rolls. Throw in a Hex spell for +1d6 damage as well (or Divine Favor, if fighting tons of squishy mooks). Your to-hits will be high, your blows will do decent-but-not-great damage per hit, and your 6th level Aura of Protection will ROCK!

Elven Accuracy then become an important thing for crit-smite-fishing, working well with the expanded crit range of 19 & 20 from Hexblade Curse as well.

There's whole guides about this. But I'm too lazy to look them up for you.

EDIT: Aww, poop! Second.

RE-EDIT: NOOOO! Third. :smallyuk:

[Corran]

I do not reccomend pam/gwm for a paladin of any sort, especially if you also plan on grabbing resilient con and double especially if you arent playing a variant human. 16 attack stat is great for level 1, but its pants for level 15, especially if you plan to be taking on a -5 penalty to hit on top of that. Even with advantage, that's not great. A paladin cannot live on crits alone.
Consider PAM as a better investment than a +2 STR, where GWM'ing is concerned. You lose roughly 5% of your dpr, and in exchange you gain a bonus action attack on top of which you can use GWM and later on IDS (and advantage when you are using VoE). I am pretty sure you gain more than you lose.
There is of course a question about how often you might want to use your bonus actions with a handful of bonus action spells (mainly misty step) and with the extra bonus action attacks that GWM grants you when you crit or kill sth, but instinctively I don't think it boost the value of a str bump over PAM.