Maximum damage using only martial maneuvers

[Oblivionsmurf]

A thought experiment for everyone: what is the most damaging combination of maneuvers that a level 20 martial adept could use against a single foe, assuming they could only rely on their maneuvers (and not, for example, any feats, items or similar).

At the moment, my thinking is:


Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose + Punishing Stance (if you are already near your opponent) (effectively 10 attacks for a two-handed weapon; or

Pouncing Charge + Raging Mongoose + Leading the Charge (4 attacks on the pouncing charge with +20 bonus damage each, followed by a further 2 attacks from Raging Mongoose).

Does anyone have any better options (again, assuming no feats or items or similar to boost the damage further).


EDIT: TLDR - What combination of maneuvers causes maximum damage (assume no feats or items whatsoever, and only damage, not save or die type maneuvers)?

EDIT 2: Some Rules:


Maximum damage in a single round as a level 20 martial adept (no other classes)
You can multiclass freely between martial adept classes, but any maneuvers chosen must be legal for that build
No feats or items (not even ToB feats or items)
No infinite loops
No allies (except for allies you generate yourself a la Distracting Ember)
Damage only (no saves or dies)
Assume you are a human with 34 in one attribute, 26 in a second attribute, and 16 in all other attributes
Assume a +30 modifier in 4 skills (or 6 for a pure Swordsage)
Assume a single theoretical large target with Strength and AC 40 (Touch 20) and +20 for all saves (but again, no saves or dies), and
Assume your target is not immune to sneak attacks, but you do not flank your target (unless you can find a maneuver that means you do within the constraints of the rest of the rules, such as Distracting Ember)
One +5 weapon of your choice, with no other enhancements, or two if you dual-wield (but remember, no external feats)
The weapon can be any weapon (including an exotic weapon), but you will take the usual penalties if you are not proficient with it
Assume you begin next to your opponent, or within charging/moving distance (your choice, and you can have two answers for each option)



EDIT 3: Tweaked the rules above

[OgresAreCute]

Full attacks aren't very impressive with no power attack or similar. There are save-or-die maneuvers which would theoretically deal infinite damage on a failed save. There are also maneuvers that can paralyze/otherwise set up for a scoopedy poop Coup de Grace the turn after.

[Oblivionsmurf]

Full attacks aren't very impressive with no power attack or similar. There are save-or-die maneuvers which would theoretically deal infinite damage on a failed save. There are also maneuvers that can paralyze/otherwise set up for a scoopedy poop Coup de Grace the turn after.

What are you thinking?

[OgresAreCute]

What are you thinking?

For example, Feral Death Blow from Tiger Claw is a DC 19+STR save-or-die, and it deals 20d6 extra damage if they make the save instead of killing them outright. Hand of Death can paralyze a flat-footed opponent for 1d3 rounds, meaning you can kill them with a Coup de Grace afterwards (which is also a save-or-die).

[Kayblis]

If you want to get full theoretical, add in Stormguard Warrior and a way to generate AoOs like Robilar's Gambit. You get +4 to hit and damage for the next round for each AoO you don't take(only against who provoked it). There's no limit on not taken AoOs, because you're not spending AoOs. Then get attacked by a Hecatoncheires(an epic beast that has 100 attacks per turn) and don't die, you just added +400 to hit and damage to each single hit you make. 404 if he moved in your threateded space, but assuming THAT would be a bit silly.

Tbh though, if you have enough buffs on each attack, having more of them can mean much more than the flat bonuses. You need to run the numbers of an ubercharger build vs the two full-attacks from Time Stands Still. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting lets you power-attack with both weapons as none of them is light.

[OgresAreCute]

Tbh though, if you have enough buffs on each attack, having more of them can mean much more than the flat bonuses. You need to run the numbers of an ubercharger build vs the two full-attacks from Time Stands Still. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting lets you power-attack with both weapons as none of them is light.

The premise of the OP was that we do not use feats like power attack to increase the damage, we only use maneuvers. Unless I'm reading it completely wrong, that is.

[Oblivionsmurf]

The premise of the OP was that we do not use feats like power attack to increase the damage, we only use maneuvers. Unless I'm reading it completely wrong, that is.

That's correct, no feats, only maneuvers.

And, I suppose, for the sake of the exercise, only focus on damage-dealing maneuvers, rather than the (more sensible without external feats) save or die maneuvers.

[noob]

You can deal infinity damage with martial manoeuvrers provided you use aura of chaos(whatever that was called) + that blessing that allowed to re-roll ones(something like imbued healing) and a weapon that deals 1d2 damage.
But you need an ally for that or taking levels in cleric.
Alternatively you do not need imbued healing if you can get a 1d1 weapon.

[Zaq]

A thought experiment for everyone: what is the most damaging combination of maneuvers that a level 20 martial adept could use against a single foe, assuming they could only rely on their maneuvers (and not, for example, any feats, items or similar).

At the moment, my thinking is:


Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose + Punishing Stance (if you are already near your opponent) (effectively 10 attacks for a two-handed weapon; or

Pouncing Charge + Raging Mongoose + Leading the Charge (4 attacks on the pouncing charge with +20 bonus damage each, followed by a further 2 attacks from Raging Mongoose).

Does anyone have any better options (again, assuming no feats or items or similar to boost the damage further).


EDIT: TLDR - What combination of maneuvers causes maximum damage (assume no feats or items whatsoever, and only damage, not save or die type maneuvers)?

For that first one, Assassin’s Stance offers +2d6 SA, which is theoretically higher than Punishing Stance’s +1d6. Relatively minor in the grand scheme (and easier to foil), but still an increase.

[Elrak]

That's correct, no feats, only maneuvers.

And, I suppose, for the sake of the exercise, only focus on damage-dealing maneuvers, rather than the (more sensible without external feats) save or die maneuvers.

I have a couple of questions. What about White Raven Tactics and how do you rule it about providing the same charater another turn? Also do you consider the damage by proxy provided by stances (i.e. Leading the charge with allies) count for this excercise and if so, how many allies are allowed?

I have not yet looked to much into it, but I think that WRT(depending on the ruling) could for a single character allow the combination of a (pouncing) charge followed by a full attack round with time stands stills in the mix.

[WhamBamSam]

With just maneuvers you can't crank Tornado Throw as hard as you could otherwise, but you can still get +10 (presumably to 40ft) to movement with Absolute Steel, then charge up by running around with Quicksilver Motion (+16 to your trip checks) before getting 8 throws from Tornado Throw with further increasing bonuses. Against a sufficiently weak enemy or enemies, you can probably put up pretty solid numbers.

[Sto]

As far as I can tell, infinite damage is maximum damage. So I believe the 1d2 crusader wins. If you want something playable, you can max your concentration and use the manuever that uses a concentration check for damage.

[WhamBamSam]

As far as I can tell, infinite damage is maximum damage. So I believe the 1d2 crusader wins. If you want something playable, you can max your concentration and use the manuever that uses a concentration check for damage.The d2 Crusader requires a Cleric level and a feat, so it's beyond the parameters of this thread. I don't think Insightful Strike optimization is the highest output under any parameters, and certainly not when you're relying on maneuvers alone. With more optimization, you can get it high enough to reliably take down a CR 20 foe in two rounds, but nowhere near what other maneuvers are capable of.

[noob]

The d2 Crusader requires a Cleric level and a feat, so it's beyond the parameters of this thread. I don't think Insightful Strike optimization is the highest output under any parameters, and certainly not when you're relying on maneuvers alone. With more optimization, you can get it high enough to reliably take down a CR 20 foe in two rounds, but nowhere near what other maneuvers are capable of.

if you can find a weapon that deals 1d1 damage it is solved.

[WhamBamSam]

if you can find a weapon that deals 1d1 damage it is solved.A Poison Ring deals precisely 1 damage, but not as a damage dice, so it won't work with Aura of Chaos. I don't think d2 Crusader will work without Imbued Healing.

[Goaty14]

if you can find a weapon that deals 1d1 damage it is solved.

There is no 1d1 damage weapon. Take a look at the d20srd weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) page, and it just goes to "1" if you go under 1d2.

[noob]

There is no 1d1 damage weapon. Take a look at the d20srd weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) page, and it just goes to "1" if you go under 1d2.
That is a problem.
Rays are weapons technically so can we find a way to reduce dice size on rays?

[Doctor Awkward]

Whew!

Alrighty... so...

The question is, "What is the most damaging combination of maneuvers that a 20th level martial adept can use against a single foe?"

So in our answer we will be using the War Master's Charge maneuver. The 9th-level maneuver from the White Raven school allows you to charge an opponent, and states that "all allies within 30 feet of you at the beginning of your turn may charge along with you as an immediate action. Your attack deals an additional 50 points of damage, and each ally's attack deals an additional 25 points of damage. None of those affected provoke attacks of opportunity due to movement during this charge.

We will additionally be using the "Leading the Charge" stance, which adds an additional amount of damage equal to your initiator level to you and all allies within a 60-ft. radius whenever any of you makes a charge.

Both of these maneuvers are unclear as to whether or not this bonus damage applies to each attack you make in the presence of Pounce, so for argument's sake we will assume the damage only applies once.

Our martial adept can be either a 20th-level warblade or crusader. It does not matter which.

The target for our attack will be a Cloud Ray from the Monster Manual II, pg. 49. According to the MM2 v3.5 update, this 30 HD magical beast retains its listed space of 100 feet across and 60 feet long. It's not strictly necessary to use something quite this massive, but having a creature that is wider than our formation makes it much easier to illustrate since we don't have to worry about charging it at an angle to attain maximum surface area coverage.

So! Let's take a look at our formation:
https://i.imgur.com/3pzH0BV.jpg

The large box outline at the top of that illustration is our monster. The star is our martial adept, and the twelve triangles are his melee allies. Upon initiating this maneuver, all of them can charge straight ahead and deal their damage.

We can then add a second layer of allies behind the first that all wield reach weapons:
https://i.imgur.com/zf2dsAC.jpg

Per the rules on charging, you may end your movement at the closest square from which you threaten your enemy, so these allies can follow directly behind the front line and stop immediately behind them, swinging their polearms over their allies' shoulders.

There are still open spaces available at the front of the creature, so we can add more allies to fill them, provided they can begin within 30 feet of our adept:
https://i.imgur.com/KT6vikH.jpg

Per the rules on charging and large creatures, you aim for any square that your target occupies, provided your movement is in a straight line. Thus the two melee allies can charge diagonally into the open spaces at the creature's edge as the front line moves forward, and the reach allies next to them can follow in behind, ending their movement to line up in the squares directly behind them.

These remaining allies will finish off the formation:
https://i.imgur.com/H0JVxtX.jpg

This setup allows all twenty squares of the creature's front face to be occupied by a charging ally at the end of their movement.

For the sake of this demonstration, let's assume that all of the melee characters are wielding greatswords with 18 strength, and all of the reach characters are wielding glaives with 18 strength. Since no other feats are allowed we will assume no one has Power Attack.

-The martial adept himself is doing 2d6 + 6 Str + 50 maneuver + 20 stance damage with his attack (76).
-The other nineteen melee allies are each doing 2d6 + 51 damage.
-The twenty reach allies are each doing 1d10 + 51 damage.

This gives us a grand total of 40d6 + 20d10 + 2,065 damage.
An average damage roll would be 2,315, which is enough to kill our target Cloud Ray more than five times.

In conclusion, the minimum amount damage a level 20 martial adept can do with just maneuvers to one target is in excess of 2,000 damage. Adding in stronger weapons, feats, buffing spells, specific builds (Frenzied Berserker springs to mind), and this amount goes up by a significant order of magnitude. Assuming Pounce damage applies to each hit will increase it by a minimum factor of five.

Hopefully you found some of this useful, even if it didn't meet your immediate needs.

[ben-zayb]

Uhm, how hard is it for people to read the original post? No, you don't get feats. No, not even ToB feats.


That said, bear in mind that iterative attacks get progressively worse bonus, so are you assuming that attacks will all hit somehow?

If that's the case, Avalanche of Blades for an arbitrarily high number of attacks

[Oblivionsmurf]

Uhm, how hard is it for people to read the original post? No, you don't get feats. No, not even ToB feats.


That said, bear in mind that iterative attacks get progressively worse bonus, so are you assuming that attacks will all hit somehow?

If that's the case, Avalanche of Blades for an arbitrarily high number of attacks

Thanks for the comments, all.

Ben-zayb, I'm not assuming all attacks would hit, but I didn't have a particular target AC in mind (and I figured, on the whole, Time Stands Still would be more likely to hit than Avalanche of Blades).

[Mordaedil]

I think it'd be more appreciated if people could focus on legal applications within reason instead of trying this one neat trick for infinite damage that everybody knows about and that really doesn't help anyone or contribute anything.

[Kayblis]

I understand OP is trying to get an answer to a question he thinks is simple. Problem is, D&D isn't that simple, and we need a lot more information to go on.

For starters, you seem to assume you'll always hit. That makes Avalanche of Blades' damage infinite, which is dumb. Assuming that's out(but you still hit with a -15 penalty), we need concrete numbers to roll with:
-Base STR (+3? +11?)
-Weapon of choice (Greatsword? Two weapons at -6/-10? If to-hit doesn't matter, an exotic one with -4 to hit and no feat?)
-Are we flanking? (Assassin's Stance)

You're trying to compare numbers. A big part of those numbers is the base damage from weapon and STR. 10 normal attacks may or may not deal more damage than 6 attacks with +22 damage(which doesn't work either way because you're using THREE swift actions on the same turn).

[Darrin]

For that first one, Assassin’s Stance offers +2d6 SA, which is theoretically higher than Punishing Stance’s +1d6. Relatively minor in the grand scheme (and easier to foil), but still an increase.

Inferno Blade (3d6+IL) + Assassin's Stance (2d6) is probably going to get you the most bonus damage per-hit, unless you're doing some crit-wankery with Blood in the Water.


With just maneuvers you can't crank Tornado Throw as hard as you could otherwise, but you can still get +10 (presumably to 40ft) to movement with Absolute Steel, then charge up by running around with Quicksilver Motion (+16 to your trip checks) before getting 8 throws from Tornado Throw with further increasing bonuses. Against a sufficiently weak enemy or enemies, you can probably put up pretty solid numbers.

Tornado Throw gets pretty obscene if you can crank up your speed with soulmelds or spells, essentially 2d6 damage for every 10'. Xeph Burst + Dread Carapace could add +130', although you'd be either multiclassing or using feats. Add footsteps of the divine and Circle Magic to go to Ludicrous Speed or break the Warp Barrier.



This gives us a grand total of 40d6 + 20d10 + 2,065 damage.


Nicely done! However, I think you're only assuming a 2D battlefield? If you bring in aerial movement, you can add more allies to charge the same target from above and below. Also, Leading the Charge makes no distinction about the size of your allies, so you can stack smaller attackers into the surrounding squares.


That said, bear in mind that iterative attacks get progressively worse bonus, so are you assuming that attacks will all hit somehow?

If that's the case, Avalanche of Blades for an arbitrarily high number of attacks

A... shall we say "permissive"... reading of Tormtor School (Drow of the Underdark) allows you to ignore any and all attack penalties when you make a melee attack with a javelin. However, that definitely involve a feat. You also still run the risk rolling a '1'.

An Idiot Crusader spamming WRT + TSS can get an obscene number of full attacks in a single round, but you're limited by the initiative count (when all creatures have acted in the round, the count resets). I'd say War Master's Charge is going to eventually outdo TSS once you're able to stack up enough allies.

[fallensavior]

Whew!

Alrighty... so...

The question is, "What is the most damaging combination of maneuvers that a 20th level martial adept can use against a single foe?"

So in our answer we will be using the War Master's Charge maneuver. The 9th-level maneuver from the White Raven school allows you to charge an opponent, and states that "all allies within 30 feet of you at the beginning of your turn may charge along with you as an immediate action. Your attack deals an additional 50 points of damage, and each ally's attack deals an additional 25 points of damage. None of those affected provoke attacks of opportunity due to movement during this charge.

We will additionally be using the "Leading the Charge" stance, which adds an additional amount of damage equal to your initiator level to you and all allies within a 60-ft. radius whenever any of you makes a charge.

Both of these maneuvers are unclear as to whether or not this bonus damage applies to each attack you make in the presence of Pounce, so for argument's sake we will assume the damage only applies once.

Our martial adept can be either a 20th-level warblade or crusader. It does not matter which.

The target for our attack will be a Cloud Ray from the Monster Manual II, pg. 49. According to the MM2 v3.5 update, this 30 HD magical beast retains its listed space of 100 feet across and 60 feet long. It's not strictly necessary to use something quite this massive, but having a creature that is wider than our formation makes it much easier to illustrate since we don't have to worry about charging it at an angle to attain maximum surface area coverage.

So! Let's take a look at our formation:
http://i.imgur.com/3pzH0BV.jpg

The large box outline at the top of that illustration is our monster. The star is our martial adept, and the twelve triangles are his melee allies. Upon initiating this maneuver, all of them can charge straight ahead and deal their damage.

We can then add a second layer of allies behind the first that all wield reach weapons:
http://i.imgur.com/zf2dsAC.jpg

Per the rules on charging, you may end your movement at the closest square from which you threaten your enemy, so these allies can follow directly behind the front line and stop immediately behind them, swinging their polearms over their allies' shoulders.

There are still open spaces available at the front of the creature, so we can add more allies to fill them, provided they can begin within 30 feet of our adept:
http://i.imgur.com/KT6vikH.jpg

Per the rules on charging and large creatures, you aim for any square that your target occupies, provided your movement is in a straight line. Thus the two melee allies can charge diagonally into the open spaces at the creature's edge as the front line moves forward, and the reach allies next to them can follow in behind, ending their movement to line up in the squares directly behind them.

These remaining allies will finish off the formation:
http://i.imgur.com/H0JVxtX.jpg

This setup allows all twenty squares of the creature's front face to be occupied by a charging ally at the end of their movement.

For the sake of this demonstration, let's assume that all of the melee characters are wielding greatswords with 18 strength, and all of the reach characters are wielding glaives with 18 strength. Since no other feats are allowed we will assume no one has Power Attack.

-The martial adept himself is doing 2d6 + 6 Str + 50 maneuver + 20 stance damage with his attack (76).
-The other nineteen melee allies are each doing 2d6 + 51 damage.
-The twenty reach allies are each doing 1d10 + 51 damage.

This gives us a grand total of 40d6 + 20d10 + 2,065 damage.
An average damage roll would be 2,315, which is enough to kill our target Cloud Ray more than five times.

In conclusion, the minimum amount damage a level 20 martial adept can do with just maneuvers to one target is in excess of 2,000 damage. Adding in stronger weapons, feats, buffing spells, specific builds (Frenzied Berserker springs to mind), and this amount goes up by a significant order of magnitude. Assuming Pounce damage applies to each hit will increase it by a minimum factor of five.

Hopefully you found some of this useful, even if it didn't meet your immediate needs.

I was going to say Leading the Charge + Warmaster's Charge, but also with White Raven Tactics. And if each ally in your formation also knows those three maneuvers, then you can chain WRT to do the whole routine 40 times. So 40x2,315. That's 92,600 on average. It's not clear to me what the maximum number of allies, but it can easily be more than 40, so there's that too.

[Doctor Awkward]

Nicely done! However, I think you're only assuming a 2D battlefield? If you bring in aerial movement, you can add more allies to charge the same target from above and below. Also, Leading the Charge makes no distinction about the size of your allies, so you can stack smaller attackers into the surrounding squares.

True, but that's a really hard thing to illustrate in MS Paint.
:smallwink:

[noob]

So you think that getting 39 guys to run toward a dangerous opponent with you is easier than to get a luck cleric with imbued healing to cast a spell before you go fighting?
If you have any cleric(even level 1 ones) with the luck domain you can probably convince that cleric to retrain to gain the feat imbued healing in exchange for a portion of your massive wbl or by going and killing an opponent god with D2 crusading.
Heck one of those 39 persons you convinced to do suicidal things could probably be asked to retrain to become a cleric with the luck domain and the imbued healing feat and then you can just do d2 annihilation.

[Doctor Awkward]

So you think that getting 39 guys to run toward a dangerous opponent with you is easier than to get a luck cleric with imbued healing to cast a spell before you go fighting?
If you have any cleric(even level 1 ones) with the luck domain you can probably convince that cleric to retrain to gain the feat imbued healing in exchange for a portion of your massive wbl or by going and killing an opponent god with D2 crusading.
Heck one of those 39 persons you convinced to do suicidal things could probably be asked to retrain to become a cleric with the luck domain and the imbued healing feat and then you can just do d2 annihilation.

Leadership. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership)

[noob]

Leadership. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership)

If you are using leadership you could go full way into deep cheeze and take one of the commoners and help him retrain.
And leadership is a feat so you are not using only martial maneuvers.
A level 1 cleric can take the imbued healing feat.

[WhamBamSam]

Tornado Throw gets pretty obscene if you can crank up your speed with soulmelds or spells, essentially 2d6 damage for every 10'. Xeph Burst + Dread Carapace could add +130', although you'd be either multiclassing or using feats. Add footsteps of the divine and Circle Magic to go to Ludicrous Speed or break the Warp Barrier.My usual tactic is to somehow (Dragon Wild Shape, Polymorph, etc) take the form of a Mercury Dragon, which all of that would stack with. It's actually much more than 2d6 per 10 ft, since you not only get an extra throw for every 10 ft, but get an extra 2d6 damage on that throw, and can charge up with Quicksilver Motion, Travel Devotion, or similar on the turn you initiate Tornado Throw to get a full movement's worth of bonuses on all your trip attempts.

Of course this is all beyond the scope of this thread. War Master's Charge optimization likely is as well, as the use of allies has to be at least as frowned upon as the use of feats.

[Mordaedil]

noob, please stop posting about d2 abuse. Nobody cares about that one thing that grants infinite damage that will never be allowed at a table.

[noob]

noob, please stop posting about d2 abuse. Nobody cares about that one thing that grants infinite damage that will never be allowed at a table.

It still means that the main post needs to be updated to exclude infinite loops or else the maximum damage stays infinity due to idiot crusader which can just play an infinity of turns(You can ask an ally to delay his action to initiative - infinity), d2 abuse which allows infinity of damage per hit.
You could also just plain simply see there was no time limit so just play something like that http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-241913.html and thus have as much damage as you want per attack if you spend enough time.
Or even worse you can still reach infinity of damage by just using forever Rallying Strike and its variants on a troll that can not out-damage the hit points you gain(and being a warforged)

So the thread should not be about maximum damage but about the highest damage provided you use a way that could not provide infinity of damage.
Or else you could even go as contrived as using chicken infested commoner for creating 2 chicken for each chicken you create and thus have an infinity of chicken infinitely bigger than the number of squares in the universe(Because the second is the cardinal of N while the first is the cardinal of R) then using master charge while being in the opponent square and having so much chickens in the opponent square that if chickens are not all identical you will probably get an infinity of chickens ready to charge with you toward your opponent.

Even then if you forbid infinite loops but still not restrain time you can still have an elf with wakeful mind hit 2628000000 times a troll(By taking 500 years hitting the troll because elves constantly seek ways to waste time)

[Oblivionsmurf]

Thanks again all.

I'll update the main post to exclude allies and infinite loops


Maximum damage in a single round as a level 20 martial adept (no other classes)
You can multiclass freely between martial adept classes, but any maneuvers chosen must be legal for that build
No feats or items (not even ToB feats or items)
No infinite loops
No allies (except for allies you generate yourself a la Distracting Ember)
Damage only (no saves or dies)
Assume you are a human with 34 in one attribute, 26 in a second attribute, and 16 in all other attributes
Assume a +30 modifier in 4 skills (or 6 for a pure Swordsage)
Assume a single theoretical large target with Strength and AC 40 (Touch 20) and +20 for all saves (but again, no saves or dies), and
Assume your target is not immune to sneak attacks, but you do not flank your target (unless you can find a maneuver that means you do within the constraints of the rest of the rules, such as Distracting Ember)
One +5 weapon of your choice, with no other enhancements, or two if you dual-wield (but remember, no external feats)
The weapon can be any weapon (including an exotic weapon), but you will take the usual penalties if you are not proficient with it
Assume you begin next to your opponent, or within charging/moving distance (your choice, and you can have two answers for each option)

And we're hopefully off again!


EDIT: Some additional rules above

[WhamBamSam]

What is the target's modifier to oppose trip checks and is its touch AC any lower than its standard AC? That affects the numbers for Tornado Throw. Also, do those rules mean that we have to stay within the schools available to one martial adept class, or would it be kosher to use Absolute Steel in my Tornado Throw setup as above?

[Oblivionsmurf]

What is the target's modifier to oppose trip checks and is its touch AC any lower than its standard AC? That affects the numbers for Tornado Throw. Also, do those rules mean that we have to stay within the schools available to one martial adept class, or would it be kosher to use Absolute Steel in my Tornado Throw setup as above?

Let's say they are Large with Strength 40 for opposing trip attempts, and have a touch AC of 20 (I've adjusted the rules above)

You can multiclass your martial adept freely (between the other martial adept classes), but any maneuvers you select have to be legal for that particular build.

[WhamBamSam]

Okay then, with our 34 in Str and something like Swordsage 16/Warblade 4, Absolute Steel+Quicksilver Motion+Tornado Throw gives us 8 throws. We'll only miss the touch attack on a natural 1.

On the first throw, we've moved 40 ft from Quicksilver Motion, and our first 10 ft from Tornado Throw. Our base trip mod is 7 less than the target, but we've got a +20 from moving 50 ft, meaning we'll win the check by an average of 13. That's 2d6 extra damage, so 4d6 total.

The next throw we'll win by 17 on average, so 5d6 damage.

The third we'll win by 21 on average for 6d6.

The fourth we'll win by 25 on average for 7d6.

The fifth we'll win by 29 on average, for 7d6

The sixth 8d6

The seventh 9d6

The eighth 10d6

That adds up to 56d6, or about 196. I think you'll lose about as many d6 by rolling low as you gain by rolling high.

[Oblivionsmurf]

Those repeated throws are a pretty hilarious mental image.

The best I've been able to do is 208.45 with Leading the Charge / Pouncing Charge / Raging Mongoose, or 244.55 with Punishing Stance / Time Stands Still / Raging Mongoose. Both of those assume a Warblade 20 with Strength 34 and a +5 Greatsword.

Leading the Charge / Pouncing Charge / Raging Mongoose

For this maneuver, we have one Full Attack Charge, plus two further regular attacks from Raging Mongoose.

Each of our charge attacks that hits will do 53 on average, comprising:


2d6 (average 7) damage from my Greatsword base damage;
5 damage from my Greatsword enchantment;
21 damage from my Strength modifier; and
20 damage from Leading the Charge

Conversely, each of our non-charge (Raging Mongoose) attacks will only do 33 points of damage (since we can no longer count the bonus from Leading the Charge).

Our to hit modifier when charging is 41/36/31/26, comprising:


14 (from our Strength modifier);
5 (from our Weapon Enchantment);
2 (from charging); and
20/15/10/5 (from our BAB).

Our to hit modifier for our Raging Mongoose attacks is 39 (since we don't get our charging bonus).

Our target AC is 40. That means:


our first charge attack will succeed on anything other than a natural 1 (0.95 probability);
our second charge attack will succeed on 4 or higher (0.85 probability);
our third charge attack will succeed on 9 or higher (0.60 probability);
our fourth charge attack will succeed on 14 or higher (0.35 probability);
our two Raging Mongoose attacks will succeed on anything other than a natural 1 (0.95 probability).

If we multiply these probabilities by my average damage for the charge and non-charge attacks, we get:


average damage of 50.35 for the first charge attack;
average damage of 45.05 for the second charge attack;
average damage of 31.8 for the third charge attack;
average damage of 18.55 for the fourth charge attack; and
average damage of 31.35 for each of my Raging Mongoose attacks (that is, average damage of 62.7 for the Raging Mongoose attacks collectively).

This gives 208.45 damage on average after a charge.

Punishing Stance / Time Stands Still / Raging Mongoose

Here, our average damage is the same as the Raging Mongoose attacks from the example above, except we add a further 1d6 (average 3.5) damage from Punishing Stance; this means our average damage per hit is 36.5.

Since we are no longer charging, we cannot count the +2 bonus from charging when determining our to hit bonus. This reduces our to hit bonus to 39/34/29/24. Once again, comparing this to our target AC of 40 gives us the following results:


our first attack will hit on anything other than a natural 1 (0.95 probability);
our second attack will hit on 6 or higher (0.7 probability);
our third attack will succeed on 11 or higher (0.5 probability);
our fourth attack will succeed on 16 or higher (0.25 probability); and
our two Raging Mongoose attacks will succeed on anything other than a natural 1 (0.95 probability).

Applying the probabilities from our non-Raging Mongoose attacks to our average damage, we get:


34.675 for our first normal attack;
25.55 for our second normal attack;
18.25 for our third normal attack; and
9.125 for our fourth normal attack.

This gives average damage of 87.6, which we double due to Time Stands Still, to get 175.2.

From here, we then add our two Raging Mongoose attacks, which will deal an average of 34.675 damage each (the same as our first regular attack), or 69.35 together.

Adding our Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose figures together, we get 244.55.



EDIT: Oops, plainly misread the rules on two weapon fighting, scratch the below:

I just tried to see if I could beat that figure with the following build:



Swordsage 20
Str 34 / Dex 26
2 Short Swords+5
Discipline Focus (Diamond Mind and Shadow Shadow Hand)
Punishing Stance / Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip / Raging Mongoose / Time Stands Still


I don't think I can though. Pre-Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, the build deals an average 150.2 damage. This leaves a gap of 94.35 to meet with Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, which would require us to roll 26.96d6s (when Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip only lets you roll 20d6s, and then only with 8 hits).

In case anyone is interested in calculating the likely Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip damage, the Swordsage made 16 attacks, at the following probabilities:


0.6 (Primary Attack 1)
0.6 (Primary Attack 1 with Time Stands Still)
0.6 (Raging Mongoose Primary Attack 1)
0.6 (Raging Mongoose Primary Attack 2)
0.4 (Off-Hand Attack 1)
0.4 (Off-Hand Attack 1 with Time Stands Still)
0.4 (Raging Mongoose Off-Hand Attack 1)
0.4 (Raging Mongoose Off-Hand Attack 2)
0.35 (Primary Attack 2)
0.35 (Primary Attack 2 with Time Stands Still)
0.15 (Off-Hand Attack 2)
0.15 (Off-Hand Attack 2 with Time Stands Still)
0.1 (Primary Attack 3)
0.1 (Primary Attack 3 with Time Stands Still)
0.05 (Off-Hand Attack 3)
0.05 (Off-Hand Attack 3 with Time Stands Still)

[RNightstalker]

If you want to get full theoretical, add in Stormguard Warrior and a way to generate AoOs like Robilar's Gambit. You get +4 to hit and damage for the next round for each AoO you don't take(only against who provoked it). There's no limit on not taken AoOs, because you're not spending AoOs. Then get attacked by a Hecatoncheires(an epic beast that has 100 attacks per turn) and don't die, you just added +400 to hit and damage to each single hit you make. 404 if he moved in your threateded space, but assuming THAT would be a bit silly.

Tbh though, if you have enough buffs on each attack, having more of them can mean much more than the flat bonuses. You need to run the numbers of an ubercharger build vs the two full-attacks from Time Stands Still. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting lets you power-attack with both weapons as none of them is light.

Robilar’s Gambit gives your opponents a bonus to attack and damage YOU...where do you get a stacked bonus for not AoOing them?!
Not to mention the line:
“Then get attacked by a Hecatoncheires(an epic beast that has 100 attacks per turn) and don't die...”
Can you read that again a few times?...maybe a hundred?!?!?! LOLOLOLOLOL

[DarkSonic1337]

Robilar’s Gambit gives your opponents a bonus to attack and damage YOU...where do you get a stacked bonus for not AoOing them?!
Not to mention the line:
“Then get attacked by a Hecatoncheires(an epic beast that has 100 attacks per turn) and don't die...”
Can you read that again a few times?...maybe a hundred?!?!?! LOLOLOLOLOL

Robilar's gambit->gain AoO when the opponent attacks you
Stormguard Warrior->forgoe AoE to gain +4 to attack and damage next round (untyped bonus).

Also delay death+diehard is a thing if you just wanna survive the attacks.

[RNightstalker]

Robilar's gambit->gain AoO when the opponent attacks you
Stormguard Warrior->forgoe AoE to gain +4 to attack and damage next round (untyped bonus).

Also delay death+diehard is a thing if you just wanna survive the attacks.

Well I’ll have my dose of humble pie now as I totally breezed over Stormguard Warrior. I’m sorry Kayblis...it’s still insanely laughable to expect a level 20 anything that’s large enough to face all 100 attacks in a round (at an additional +4 mind you) and still survive. But I’ve been known to be a sucker for punishment so I’m pretty sure someone is going to figure a way out to bypass/survive over 3000 points of damage as a level 20 martial adept...

[Lotheb]

Assuming the hecatoncheires spent 6 minutes every two days using it's at will GMagic Weapon SLA you'd need 102 AC to only get hit on a 20, which would usually leave you taking 12d6+175 damage from 5 hits and multiweapon rend. Alternatively immunity to crits and DR 45/(-, adamantine, cold iron, silver, piercing, good, or lawful) makes you immune to it's attacks, though you could potentially take a little damage from multiweapon rend.

[Felyndiira]

Are we assuming average dice rolls, DPR, or maximum potential damage?

Avalanche of Blades can be anywhere between 1 to Infinity hits depending on the roll and your bonuses. It's not going to beat Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose builds without feats, by default, but it does have the highest maximum potential damage of any maneuver, even if the chances are very low.

[Big Fau]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Raging Mongoose+Assassin's Stance+Mountain Tombstone Strike technically out-damage everything short of a hypothetically infinite sequence of Avalanche of Blades (every attack being a nat 20 would mean infinite damage overall) or a successful Feral Death Blow (kills any target not immune outright)? Mountain Tombstone Strike scales to the target's HD, so it's maximum damage is (6*HD)+weapon damage from MTS+2d6+Raging Mongoose damage. Basically anything not immune to Con damage would lose a massive amount of HP and then a little chump change afterwards. For reference, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon would take 240 damage just from the Con loss.

Also Raging Mongoose requires dual-wielding, so non-dual two-handed weapons won't work with it unless you mix an unarmed strike in (or a Mouthpick weapon).