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EndgamerAzari
2007-09-18, 05:37 PM
Now that I finally FOUND Shock Trooper, it made me think (and wring my hands and cackle, but that's beside the point). So anyway: with Domino Rush, if you trip those two opponents and have Improved Trip (and Pounce, just in case that matters), can you make an attack against one of them?

Kaelik
2007-09-18, 05:50 PM
I do believe that according to a strict interpretation of the rules you would in fact get to attack both of them.

EndgamerAzari
2007-09-18, 05:55 PM
WOOT! I know what my next couple feats are gonna be.... :belkar:

Person_Man
2007-09-18, 08:28 PM
I believe the combo you're looking for is Goliath (Races of Stone) Fighter 6, using the Dungeoncrasher variant (Dungeonscape), the Knockback feat (Races of Stone), Shock Trooper, Improved Trip, Leap Attack, and a Spiked Chain or Fire Lash.

Search for "Flaming Homer" on this board, and you'll see how its used. Basically, you hit your enemy, get a free Bull Rush, push him back into another enemy, Trip them both, get a free follow up attack on each of them, get a free Bull Rush on each of them, repeat.

EndgamerAzari
2007-09-18, 08:35 PM
Well, this character's already made, and already has Power Attack and Improved Trip, and uses a Halberd (sometimes a greatclub).

Though I now have a very good idea of how to break a character the next time I wanna play Bashy McCheapy. Many thanks, oh Cheese-faced One.

ocato
2007-09-18, 08:56 PM
I believe the combo you're looking for is Goliath (Races of Stone) Fighter 6, using the Dungeoncrasher variant (Dungeonscape), the Knockback feat (Races of Stone), Shock Trooper, Improved Trip, Leap Attack, and a Spiked Chain or Fire Lash.

What's that do?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 09:00 PM
What's that do?

You get extra damage when you push people into things. Ridiculous amounts.

ocato
2007-09-18, 09:04 PM
People things? Neat! So like, sneak attackish damage or like, extra greatsword damage?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 09:06 PM
People things? Neat! So like, sneak attackish damage or like, extra greatsword damage?

Well, it's certainly not precision damage. I think it's actually untyped "crushed against the wall" damage. It's in Dungeonscape, if you're curious.

ocato
2007-09-18, 09:07 PM
I meant is it like +2d6ish or like +6d6ish. I don't have dungeonscape but I might have to look into it.

Person_Man
2007-09-18, 09:21 PM
What's that do?

Dungeoncrasher: You give up your 2nd and 6th level bonus Fighter feats. Whenever you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other solid object, you deal 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage. You also gain a big bonus to Sunder doors, walls, or other similar obstacles.

Knockback: Free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy with a melee attack using Power Attack. You do not move with the enemy, you just push them back. Requires that you be Large, or have the Powerful Build racial feature (Half Giant, Goliath).

Shock Trooper: Remove Power Attack penelty from To-Hit, replace with penalty to AC. Also, when you Bull Rush enemy A into enemy B's square, you get a free Trip attempt on each of them. Also allows you to steer an enemy one space to the right or left for each space you push them back as part of a Bull Rush.

Improved Trip: Free follow up attack whenever you Trip an enemy.

War Mind: At 5th level, for each melee attack a War Mind makes, he can choose squares he threatens that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. A war mind can use this ability on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt.

Expansion: Psychic Warrior power, accessed through War Mind. Works like Enlarge Person, but better.

Put together with any decent reach weapon, and you become my Bowling Ball of Doom build. For extra fun, have a friend cast Animate Object or cast any solid wall spell, to give you new things to push your enemies into.

Note that I've actually played Flaming Homer before. He's very potent, but he actually gets quite boring if you don't diversify your powers and feats. He's also quite easy to kill via any non-melee methods, just like most other melee builds.

ocato
2007-09-18, 09:25 PM
I know that, I just didn't know the damage on the wall crash. Its pretty potent, you get that for knocking him into another guy? Well, a person is technically solid (filled with liquid), but it seems the spirit is to throw him into a wall, not a guy.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-18, 09:25 PM
Dungeoncrasher: You give up your 2nd and 6th level bonus Fighter feats. Whenever you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other solid object, you deal 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage. You also gain a big bonus to Sunder doors, walls, or other similar obstacles.

Having also seen the variant Paladin, I'm assuming that Dungeonscape puts a lot of emphasis on upgraded versions of weak classes disguised as variants.

Iku Rex
2007-09-18, 09:59 PM
So anyway: with Domino Rush, if you trip those two opponents and have Improved Trip (and Pounce, just in case that matters), can you make an attack against one of them?IMO, no.

Shock Trooper lets you "make a free trip attempt".

Improved Trip: "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

So when you successfully trip an opponent with Shock Trooper you get a melee attack [so far so good] as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Here's the thing - you didn't use an attack for the trip attempt. +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

Clearly that doesn't work as written. The DM has to interpret and "errata" the feat so that it makes sense. He can disregard the last part of the rule in Improved Trip and give you some sort of attack anyway, or he can say that you don't get an extra attack because you didn't use an attack for the trip attempt. I think the latter is far more sensible.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-18, 10:28 PM
War Mind 5 and War Hulk 4 are the 2 ways to get multiple targets with a single attack. The difference?

Psychic Warrior loses at least 1 BAB(assuming you only dip 1 level in it to get Knowledge: Psionics as a class skill. And happen to have 22 Intelligence or 20 as a Human), or 2 over 5 levels.

War Hulk loses 4 BAB, but gains 8 Strength, which may or may not make the difference(depends on the multipliers you get to both Strength and Power Attack). It also gets No Time to Think, which treats you as having 0 ranks(and probably as untrained) in all Skills that have a mental stat as the modifier, except Intimidate.

Both PrCs require you to be level 5 to access(War Hulk via BAB, War Mind via skills).

Final important differences: War Hulk can use his Great/Mighty Swing on up to 3 squares at once, choosing to skip allies(compared to the War Mind's 2). War Mind cannot use Sweeping Strike if he has moved more than 10 feet since the end of his last turn(which means no charging Shock Trooper Sweeping Strikes). War Hulk has no such restriction. War Hulk doesn't get Critical/Sneak damage on the targets beyond the first, but presumably anything that doesn't reference Sneak Attack is golden. Favoured Enemy, Weapon Specialisation, any precision damage that is not Sudden Strike/Sneak Attack. War Mind's attacks "apply equally to both targets".

Edit: Pre-emptive strike: Yes, I have just looked up Shock Trooper again. Except for Domino Bull-Rush, the other 2 parts of Shock Trooper do in fact require you to charge. So you must charge to get Directed Bull-Rush and Heedless Charge to work. So no Sweeping Strike Charge-haha-I-push-you-left/right-into-each-other. And no Sweeping Strike Leap Attack-haha-I-smash-you-hard-but-make-myself-softer-target.

Person_Man
2007-09-18, 10:43 PM
Having also seen the variant Paladin, I'm assuming that Dungeonscape puts a lot of emphasis on upgraded versions of weak classes disguised as variants.

Correct.

Basically the Tome of Battle is now the benchmark for a balanced class in D&D. They've pretty much said that its also a trial run for 4th ed. So many of the older older classes have been getting a ton of alternate class features to put them on par with the newer material.

Stam
2007-09-19, 01:01 AM
That would be, as a balanced class for a melee-type, specifically? ToB stuff that I've looked at (admittedly, shallowly) does not seem to take the place of a skillmonkey rogue or scout.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-19, 01:23 AM
I've always seen the rogue as the benchmark for a balanced class, but maybe that's just me. The way I see it, Rogue is the only class that delivers everything it promised, without overshadowing any other class.

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 10:56 AM
I've always seen the rogue as the benchmark for a balanced class, but maybe that's just me. The way I see it, Rogue is the only class that delivers everything it promised, without overshadowing any other class.

Actually, that is a very common opinion. The Rogue is pretty much considered the Paragon of class balance by the majority of players. The only complaint that is equally as common is that the rogue does not have a capstone ability at level 20. That is, they don't get any "super" ability at level 20 that most other classes have.

Frosty
2007-12-06, 11:11 AM
And what super capstone does the Figher or Paladin get, pray tell? A feat? Remove disease yet another time?

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 11:19 AM
And what super capstone does the Figher or Paladin get, pray tell? A feat? Remove disease yet another time?

Meh, point taken. In any event, Rogues get NO ability at level 20, which is quite lame.

All the classes should get something super-cool if the single-class it to level 20.

My personal favorite is the Beguiler. They can ignore spell resistance entirely if they cast a spell at an opponent that has his dexterity denied.

Stephen_E
2007-12-06, 06:47 PM
IMO, no.

Shock Trooper lets you "make a free trip attempt".

Improved Trip: "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt."

So when you successfully trip an opponent with Shock Trooper you get a melee attack [so far so good] as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt. Here's the thing - you didn't use an attack for the trip attempt. +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

Clearly that doesn't work as written. The DM has to interpret and "errata" the feat so that it makes sense. He can disregard the last part of the rule in Improved Trip and give you some sort of attack anyway, or he can say that you don't get an extra attack because you didn't use an attack for the trip attempt. I think the latter is far more sensible.

They did clarify this in the FAQ at some point IIRC. Yes, any free trip attempts you get allow you to use Improved trip unless they specify otherwise (Whirlwind specifically states you get no additional attacks IIRC).

I beleive the logic is that the ability is gibing you an extra attack. That attack must be a trip attack. Thus yes you are using your attack (the bonus trip) for tripping, and thus Improved Trip does indeed give you a further attack on a successfully tripped target. The fact that you could only use that additional attack for tripping is irrelevant.

Stephen