What noncombat abilities are there that Full BAB classes have?

[radthemad4]

Assume for the sake of this thread that persistent Divine Power and PRCs that advance casting, manifesting, etc. don't count.

Paladins get Detect Evil, some healing and Remove Disease
Rangers get Track as a bonus feat
Sword of the Arcane Order has Wizard spells
Wildshape Ranger can be pretty good at scouting, getting into weird places and/or being a mount

What'd I miss?

[Zaq]

Swashbucklers get that seduction ability (in the Dead Levels article).

Pretty sure that most of the full-BAB-with-level-4-spells classes get a couple utility spells (I know Rangers get Alarm, for instance).

Barbarians get Trapkiller.

Warblade and Crusader get Mountain Hammer, the beloved “Stone Dragon Lockpick.”

[heavyfuel]

What'd I miss?

Plenty.

Barbarians can destroy traps with an ACF
I'm pretty sure they can also get Track
Decent skill points and decent class skills too

Rangers get skill points galore and a very good skill list

That's on core.

Outside of core we have Warblade and Crusaders with some good maneuvers for outside of combat. The one that ignores Hardness is very useful outside combat.

Duskblades get spells, and not just blasty ones. Same goes for the Hexblade, who also gets a familiar

Soulborns get some access to Soulmelds, which include, well, a lot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321557-The-World-in-One-Feat-A-Shape-Soulmeld-Handbook)

I'm sure I missed even more stuff

[OgresAreCute]

Jump, Climb, Swim

[Psyren]

Is this only for 3.5? Because PF ones get a metric ton through archetypes, ranging from sneak attack to alchemy to casting to crafting to animal companions to familiars and many more.

[ezekielraiden]

Jump, Climb, Swim

Be still, my heart!

Would be nice if more of them got the skill points to do all three :P

[OgresAreCute]

Be still, my heart!

Would be nice if more of them got the skill points to do all three :P

You just gotta put a 10 in Int and go human, that's 3 points per level right there.

[ericgrau]

Str checks to break stuff are nice. Also adamantine weapon tunneling. Also barbarian/paladin trapfinding: walk into it and soak it and/or save.

[Rebel7284]

Whatever abilities you can get with your WBL/gold?

On a less snarky note, are PrCs that have full BAB and don't progress casting count?

If yes:
Bear Warrior can turn into a bear and Primeaval can turn into anything prehistoric.
Runescarred Berserker has a nice spell list including Polymorph.
Warrior Skald gets ALL core bardic music abilities at level 1.
War Chanter also gets some nice music abilities with a silly, silly capstone.
Sneak Attack Fighter gets sneak attack.
Arcane Archer allows for some fun shenanigans.
Dread Pirate lets you be a pirate
Suel Arcanamach tries to be a gish class
Hulking Hurler allows you to throw a small moon, which certainly solves some encounters....
Ashworm Dragoon gives you an Ashworm mount
Most things in TOB

[Zaq]

While Soulborns have crappy access to their soulmelds, their list does have a handful of melds with good noncombat uses. Cerulean Sandals let you walk on water, Soulspeaker Circlet helps with languages, Diadem of Purelight saves you 2 gp on a sunrod, and a whole bunch of them are useful for boosting skills.

[tiercel]

In addition to their skill list, Rangers get some nice utility from Spell Compendium’s addition to their spell list: as 1st level spells, Rangers can enhance stealth (Aspect of the Wolf, Camouflage, Remove Scent), overland travel (Easy Trail, Lay of the Land, Traveler’s Mount), movement vs various difficult terrain (Branch to Branch, Climb Walls, Snowshoes, Surefoot, Surefooted Stride), wearing fuschia with chartreuse (Horrible Taste), sensory acuity (Bloodhound, Embrace the Wild, Hawkeye, Instant Search, Living Prints), and even negative status removal (Healing Lorecall).

Sure, Ranger spells per day are HAH, but 1st level spells fit very nicely into scroll or even wand form, of course.

[Mordaedil]

You just gotta put a 10 in Int and go human, that's 3 points per level right there.

Then again, if you go 13 points in Int, you can pick up Combat Expertise and it's subsequent feats too, which are just too good to pass up.

[Marlowe]

You just gotta put a 10 in Int and go human, that's 3 points per level right there.

The sarcasm positively drips from this.

[ericgrau]

Whatever abilities you can get with your WBL/gold?
Hey you can do a LOT with that. More than what most classes get from class features if you try. For a long time I've been strongly considering playing a commoner 21+ in the next epic campaign I'm in and just going ultra nutso with gear.

Yeah I know doesn't say much for the class, but what do I care about that? I'm there to have fun one way or another. And my character is defined by all his pieces not just one of those pieces.

More seriously and on topic, stealing in plain sight is a disarm check and you do that with your attack bonus. Lifting is sleight of hand.

[Lans]

Hey you can do a LOT with that. More than what most classes get from class features if you try. For a long time I've been strongly considering playing a commoner 21+ in the next epic campaign I'm in and just going ultra nutso with gear.
.

That's not actually legal npc classes are limited to 20 levels

[ericgrau]

That's not actually legal npc classes are limited to 20 levels

What they have no epic progression? :smalltongue:

Actually one of my backstory possibilities was already a wizard who disjunctioned an artifact. Nearly a commoner, but with a high will save and some knowledges. Another was just being lazy and rich. I could always multi-class from aristocrat into commoner on the 2nd one.

[Troacctid]

According to Person_Man's Niche Ranking System, the highest-ranked full BAB for noncombat niches is the Ranger, ranked 36th overall among classes. Hexblade is next at 38th, followed by Paladin and Battle Dancer tied at 45th, and Soulborn at 52nd. (Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U_Ql7b9nNI8y1K_yVgPbyusW_pclTa-q1k-OLMMO_EQ/edit#gid=1471569293) is the reference I pulled this from, and here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U_Ql7b9nNI8y1K_yVgPbyusW_pclTa-q1k-OLMMO_EQ/edit#gid=1471569293&fvid=232478195) it is filtered to just full BAB classes.) Note that Mystic Ranger was not rated; if it had been, it surely would have scored higher.


Is this only for 3.5? Because PF ones get a metric ton through archetypes, ranging from sneak attack to alchemy to casting to crafting to animal companions to familiars and many more.
Does sneak attack count as a noncombat ability?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Does sneak attack count as a noncombat ability?If you assassinate someone from the shadows before they know you're even there, it still counts as a non-combat scenario if you didn't roll initiative.

[Zaq]

If you assassinate someone from the shadows before they know you're even there, it still counts as a non-combat scenario if you didn't roll initiative.

I'll buy that for Death Attack, maybe. On a good day, at least. We all know the weaknesses of Death Attack. But vanilla Sneak Attack in a surprise round isn't likely to off anyone you couldn't kill in one round anyway, at which point the Sneak Attack wasn't really the deciding feature of whether you managed to pull off the assassination.

If you're up against a target who is vulnerable to an assassination attempt (and I'm gonna say that an at-level opponent who's an actual combatant is usually not going to fall in a single attack unless there's a narrative reason why they're unusually squishy), the big noncombat portion is using stealth/disguises/trickery to get into position to assassinate them, not the ability to make a lethal attack when you jump out of the shadows. Or, you know, when you stay hidden and attack anyway, whatevs.

Sneak Attack is a fun feature. But I don't think it's really straightforward to call it a noncombat feature.

[noob]

That's not actually legal npc classes are limited to 20 levels

Actually all the base class have an epic progression it is just that what they get from it is not always defined.
Also the dmg indicates there is a thing such as epic level commoners.

Paladins have the quite useful escape from plot power.

[ericgrau]

Actually all the base class have an epic progression it is just that what they get from it is not always defined.
Also the dmg indicates there is a thing such as epic level commoners.

Paladins have the quite useful escape from plot power.

Do you have a reference for this? Because commoner 30 is another possibility that could be better for the lulz. I mean the pattern is easy enough to see if it's allowed. Likewise I would need to see a rule saying it's not allowed before I believe it's not allowed for sure. If it's neither then it's undefined. It's not necessarily one way or the other just because info that says the opposite is missing.

So far I did find this:

A class can be advanced beyond 20th level.
The rules go on to explain how most patterns continue in 20 level classes, except for specific exceptions. It does seem to be strongly imply that any class can continue past 20, and any prestige class can continue past 10. Even though the specifics aren't always provided. Since NPC classes almost completely lack class features and bonus feats, it would be super easy to implement epic NPC classes. Follow all the default epic class rules, additional special abilities and bonus feats are nil, job done.

So if there's nothing else, the rule seems to be all classes can go past 20. Their progression isn't always defined, but it can be easy to guess in some cases including NPC classes. The only thing NPC classes might get are bonus feats but that is highly unlikely.

---
Trying not to tangent too much so...

Full BAB classes make good dummy chassis for buffs, other spell effects, and gear. HP, attack bonus, saves, mobility skills and sometimes class AC bonuses all work well here. Outside of combat you might not need any of these, just a body and maybe some skills. But even random traps, hazards or sometimes ambushes might kill you before your destinations. Yeah ambushes are combat, but you can't do non-combat to combat to non-combat if you can't at least soak an ambush. And the other hazards mentioned aren't combat. OTOH companions are also good for many of these things. Ranger gets one, and since it's weakness isn't always a problem it's handy just to have the extra body.

[noob]

Read the dmg on highest levels of npcs in a town in function of the size of the town(in the dmg).
For the biggest size towns it is something like 16+ a bunch of four sided dice for the level of the highest level commoner of the town.
which means it will quite often be an epic commoner.

[Lans]

Actually all the base class have an epic progression it is just that what they get from it is not always defined.
Also the dmg indicates there is a thing such as epic level commoners.


There is a blurb in the epic handbook about there not being an epic progression for npc classes

[noob]

There is a blurb in the epic handbook about there not being an epic progression for npc classes

The epic handbook is 3.0 content and I was speaking of the 3.5 dungeon master guide.
since the dungeon master guide is more recent when we are speaking of 3.5 then epic commoners are a thing.
(And epic experts too since they add something like 1d6 to the +16 of the biggest town modifier which can reach 21 or 22)