Do you need to roll touch attack when casting reach healing spell at your teammate?

[Almostdead]

Do you need to roll ranged touch attack when casting reach healing spell at your teammate?

Reach spell states: The spell effectively becomes a ray, so you must succeed at a ranged touch attack to bestow the spell upon the recipient.

Touch spell in combat states: You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

I think it's illogical to roll attack cause your teammate won't use his Dex bonus to dodge it. And since touch spell ignore armor, there is basically nothing left to counter this attack roll.

Is there an official answer to that question (since I am arguing with my DM)? Thank you!

[DeTess]

Do you need to roll ranged touch attack when casting reach healing spell at your teammate?

Reach spell states: The spell effectively becomes a ray, so you must succeed at a ranged touch attack to bestow the spell upon the recipient.

Touch spell in combat states: You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

I think it is illogical to roll attack cause your teammate won't use his Dex bonus to dodge it. And since touch spell ignore armor, there is basically nothing left to counter this attack roll.

Is there an official answer to that question (since I am arguing with my DM)? Thank you!

Reach spell does not differentiate between friend or foe in its wording, so you still need to make the roll. You could argue friends would count as flat-footed, but you would still need to hit them, which can be non-trivial.

[heavyfuel]

Do buff ray spells need (aka, spells not Metamagiced by Reach Spell) still need to make touch attack?

Some examples include Ray of Resurgence (Lost Empires of Faerun) and Light of Venya (SpC)


You could argue friends would count as flat-footed

Not necessarily FF, but I'd say they can voluntarily forfeit Dex and Dodge bonuses to AC. That's how I'd rule it for what it's worth.


Edit: Turns out Ray of Resurgence isn't a "Ray spell" despite its name

[MaxiDuRaritry]

When hitting an ally would be difficult for whatever reason, and said ally is aware of you and knows you're trying to cast a beneficial spell on him/her/it, I'd add their Dex mod and Dodge/Luck bonuses to your to-hit roll, instead of adding it to their AC. If the ally does not know you're there, you have to roll to hit, but you don't get the bonus. If the ally is aware and there are no difficulty factors, I'd just allow for an auto-hit to make things simpler. But that's just me.

[Buufreak]

Just remember, if it takes a roll, it can crit. For that reason alone I have players roll even melee touch heal spells. Never know when bonus health will be handy.

[Psyren]

This isn't really RAW but here's what I would do. Yes you have to roll to hit, but it should be easy since your ally isn't actively trying to avoid you the way they would a foe. That means you should get to ignore Dex and Dodge bonuses to their AC at a minimum. I would also say deflection bonuses should be out, because they don't stop a melee touch buff or them from touching themselves (giggity.)

The one I would leave in there would be size bonuses, because in the chaos of combat, shooting at a smaller target (even one that's trying to be hit) should be harder than hitting the broad side of a barn. Even for shooting a ray at an inanimate object, its size would matter after all.

So for me it would just be 10+size bonus - usually automatic unless the target is Fine, but there's still a chance for a critical miss.

[Almostdead]

So after all it still depends on my DM...And he would just do this the old way (roll against touch AC).
Well, hope my teammate don't die because he dodged my healing ray :smallsigh:
Thank you guys!:smallsmile:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So after all it still depends on my DM...And he would just do this the old way (roll against touch AC).
Well, hope my teammate don't die because he dodged my healing ray :smallsigh:
Thank you guys!:smallsmile:Tell the other players to actively try to dodge into your healing rays, so you apply those bonuses to your ranged attack bonus.

[heavyfuel]

Just remember, if it takes a roll, it can crit. For that reason alone I have players roll even melee touch heal spells. Never know when bonus health will be handy.

Sure is fun when your healing spells deal double damage :smallconfused: yes, i know about undeads


A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together.

[Almostdead]

Tell the other players to actively try to dodge into your healing rays, so you apply those bonuses to your ranged attack bonus.

This seems reasonable. But my DM is quite stubborn, don't know if he would allow it.:smallwink:
I will try, thx~

[Buufreak]

Sure is fun when your healing spells deal double damage :smallconfused: yes, i know about undeads

From a mathematicians pov, it totally works as long as we are working with negatives without using absolute values.

[heavyfuel]

From a mathematicians pov, it totally works as long as we are working with negatives without using absolute values.

I understood all of these words, they just don't make any sense in this order you put them in.

At any rate I'm glad D&D doesn't really use whatever language you're using. Healing spells can't crit, unless you decide so by DM fiat

[KillianHawkeye]

From a mathematicians pov, it totally works as long as we are working with negatives without using absolute values.


I understood all of these words, they just don't make any sense in this order you put them in.

At any rate I'm glad D&D doesn't really use whatever language you're using. Healing spells can't crit, unless you decide so by DM fiat

What he means is that if you consider healing spells to deal a negative amount of damage, then getting a crit with one works just fine.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Unfortunately, D&D double negatives don't cancel: a penalty of -5 is not a bonus of +5, and 5 points of damage is not -5 points of healing.

[Almostdead]

This seems reasonable. But my DM is quite stubborn, don't know if he would allow it.:smallwink:
I will try, thx~

Well, my DM called me a rule lawyer when I tried to argue if that's okay to let teammate "not dodging" my healing ray. He considered "not dodging" as a standard action, and only allows teammate to give up his Dex bonus for a whole round(consider flat-footed to anyone). Then we had a debate over using immediate action as "not dodging".

At the end, everything remains the same but the atmosphere between us is quite awkward...

So, maybe I tried too hard.:smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, my DM called me a rule lawyer when I tried to argue if that's okay to let teammate "not dodging" my healing ray. He considered "not dodging" as a standard action, and only allows teammate to give up his Dex bonus for a whole round(consider flat-footed to anyone). Then we had a debate over using immediate action as "not dodging".

At the end, everything reminds the same but the atmosphere between us is quite awkward...

So, maybe I tried too hard.:smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:Throw a shoe at him. When it hits, ask him why he wasted his standard action.

Also, your DM is dumb. Why does not performing an action require an action?

[Buufreak]

What he means is that if you consider healing spells to deal a negative amount of damage, then getting a crit with one works just fine.

Exactly. I don't see how what I said could have possibly confusing.

[Almostdead]

Throw a shoe at him. When it hits, ask him why he wasted his standard action.

Also, your DM is dumb. Why does not performing an action require an action?

DM thinks that in a "real" round, all characters including enemies are moving at the same time. So if you decide to not dodge one attack, time still pasts, and you will be hit by other attacks at that time.

It makes some sense, but not very convincing to me.
Anyway I give up, he is the DM what can I do...:smallsigh:
Thank you for your help anyway.:smallsmile:

[Necroticplague]

Throw a shoe at him. When it hits, ask him why he wasted his standard action.

Also, your DM is dumb. Why does not performing an action require an action?

To be fair, I can see some logic to this. In the frenzy of melee combat, you don't exactly have much time to process how threatening everything coming at you is, and would be dodging/blocking/parrying basically reflexively. Fighting those instincts and forcing yourself to stay still could legitimately take a second of concentration. I wouldn't model it with a waste of an action, but there's certainly sound reasoning for applying a penalty (I'd say provokes AoO, as you standing still for the spell leaves an opening a foe can exploit, if i have enough of a crap about simulationism. Which I don't.).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If the DM requires your teammates to burn a standard, ask him how that works when you're casting on your turn. Can everyone act outside their initiative?

[Almostdead]

If the DM requires your teammates to burn a standard, ask him how that works when you're casting on your turn. Can everyone act outside their initiative?

According to DM, if teammates want to "not dodge", they have to do that on their own turn with a standard action. And they will lost their Dex bonus until their next turn, which makes this action unpractical. :smallsigh:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

According to DM, if teammates want to "not dodge", they have to do that on their own turn with a standard action. And they will lost their Dex bonus until their next turn, which makes this action unpractical. :smallsigh:In-battle healing already sucks. This makes it significantly worse. Just convince an ally to take a dip in crusader and use Martial Spirit Stance to heal everyone. Or use healing wands after each fight, or Divine Metamagic (Persist) some mass lesser vigor on the group and just don't bother healing during altercations.

[Tajerio]

Sorry to hear that your DM is a bit of a dingus. A more reasonable DM would have noted that since you're playing a character who can cast healing spells, part of your rationale for taking Reach Spell was very possibly to do ranged healing. A more reasonable DM would also like the players to do the things they want to do that don't ruin the game, since the whole point is to have fun, after all. And since nobody in their right mind thinks that ranged in-combat healing is a gamebreaker, or even a very significant balance-changer, a more reasonable DM would just let you do those heals without a second thought. Or at least only have you make the rolls against flat-footed AC.

I also don't know why someone who thinks that in "a real round" everyone is moving at the same time would use 3.5 as their system, since the entire combat system pretty explicitly revolves around that not being the case, but there you are.

[Mordaedil]

I just apply the general rule for saving throws to this.

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

The only thing I don't apply this to is Spell Resistance, because it has a stated different function. So if your allies wants to get hit by your spell, they can forego their defense and willingly be struck by the spell, without cause for demanding an action be spent.

[KillianHawkeye]

I just apply the general rule for saving throws to this.

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

The only thing I don't apply this to is Spell Resistance, because it has a stated different function. So if your allies wants to get hit by your spell, they can forego their defense and willingly be struck by the spell, without cause for demanding an action be spent.

To be fair, lowering your own Spell Resistance actually does cost a Standard Action for the round, although voluntarily failing a Saving Throw does not.

[Khedrac]

I have always assumed that using a reach healing spell in combat will require a to-hit roll, and whilst I might argue for allowing the target to not include his/her Dex bonus to AC I certainly would not allow any bonuses to the roll against a target trying to evade someone else's attacks (and yes, I would also apply the 'firing into melee' penalty without precise shot) - it is one of the huge advantages of the naturally ranged healing spells - no attack roll.

This is also a reason to be careful with miss-chance effects- usually a favorite of the playground - as even though I don't require a 'to hit' roll (usually) for conventional healing, I would require a miss chance roll (though at least the spell would still be 'held' on a miss).

If reach spell[ didn't convert the spell into a 'ray', it would be very different, but rays clearly require attack rolls so i don't think the DM is being unfair here at all. Note: I would allow the healing to critical on a natural 20 - I think that the one advantage of the ray transformation.

(Hmm, consider using a reach heal and the ability that allows one to treat one D20 roll as a natural 20 on a badly injured ally - just need to roll to confirm the critical.)