Making a "God" Druid? Or maybe a Cleric?

[Supermouse]

So, I'll start playing in a running campaign, with the players at level 5. I'm mostly comfortable with 3.5 or other D20 systems, and never played 5E, so some things were strange to me when reading the book the first time (like the CR of the creatures the Druid can change to).

The DM already told me Wizards and Sorcerers (incidentally, some of my favorite classes) are out of bounds, just like some races like high elves, halflings, tieflings and gnomes. The reasons for that are both mechanical (the DM is not comfortable with the eventual powerlevel of the arcane casters, although he let a Lore Bard in) and from campaign lore (there is a war, arcane casters are bad, those races that we aren't allowed to play are in the wrong side of the war).

Now, I don't know if other groups use to do this, but around here we tend to pick "unique" classes (as in, if there's already a Fighter in the group, no other player will make another Fighter), we think it helps make each player feel a bit more unique and avoid a bit of overstepping, despite some classes having the same roles.

In that regard, the group already has a Fighter, a Barbarian, a Bard (a bummer, because I wanted to play one), a Warlock (another bummer) and a Rogue will join the group. They are, obviously, asking me to roll some kind of healer, but I already told them to get bent because even if I pick a class that can heal, I'll do it very little, simply due to the fact that it's better to prevent damage than it is to heal damage. The DM was aking me if I'd play a Druid, since he wants to show up a bit more of "nature" and "primal" magic in the game, as opposed to the arcane magic.

So, by what I know, the group is a bit unexperienced, the only ones more "aware" are the Warlock, who's a long time player and DM, but he's mostly there to do nice stuff with the class abilities, and the Barbarian who's a frigging power player who's always looking for combos and stuff like that (and he probably picked up Barbarian because of the class fame on dealing and tanking damage, since there were no arcane casters). So, I decided to not go the easy route and make a Moon Druid beating up people in bear form, so I wouldn't overshadow the Fighter, for instance.

I was thinking of making a buffer/debuffer/battlefield controller, like the so-called "God" Wizard that Treantmonk talks about, but I'm going to do it as a Druid. Or maybe a Cleric.

So, any ideas on how I could go with this? We have only the PHB and XGtE available. I was thinking about going Land Druid (Shepperd Druid looks more like a minionmancer, and I don't want to go that way, and Dreams Druid will probably make me go the route of a healbot), and picking up the Arctic land. Despite by what I read about consensus being that Grassland or Underdark are the superior land types to pick, it seems to me that Arctic has some nice BC spells to have always ready, and Slow is a nice debuff, comparable to Grassland's Haste, plus if I pick Haste I'll have to chose one of the frontliners to buff and it might make the other feel excluded or something like that.

Or maybe a Cleric would be better for this role? I'll be honest, I didn't read about Clerics too much, so IDK if there's any Cleric domain that would make me better in this role than the Land Druid.

I'm a bit worried that it seems most of the good Druid spells require concentration, so I'm a bit lost at spell selection, as to be able to do something useful while I'm concentrating in keeping that Wall or Mist or Hail. As I'm not familiar with how the game plays irl, IDK if cantrips can cut it. TBH, skills and feats baffle me a bit too.

For race, I was going to go with variant Human because I'm a cheap person and Druids don't really need too many attributes. Maybe if I was going the Cleric route, I'd pick Hill Dwarf. For the human feat, I was thinking about either Resilient (Constitution) or War Caster, to help in keeping the concentration in case anything happens, as it seems I'll be always concentrating in some spell as a Druid.

Any more ideas? Or maybe something different from what I'm doing here? I know Lore Bard would be the better choice for a party buffer, but as I said, there's one already and we tend to frown uppon picking the same class as other players (although it seems to me that the Bard isn't playing as a buffer/healer, as they asked me to play a healbot for them).

[Mr.Spastic]

My suggestion would be to play a hill dwarf land druid. Specifically arctic. They get some of the best control spells auto prepared from their spell list like, hold person and slow. For a feat I'm tempted to say magic initiate for more spells but I would also suggest the Healer feat for extra heals that aren't spells.

If you were going cleric, I would suggest Tempest or Light for good blasting. The sad thing is clerics don't get good control spells, besides command.

[Supermouse]

But if I played a Hill Dwarf Druid, I wouldn't have the feat, right now at least, because I'll probably use my first ASI to improve Wisdom.

Oh, right, I forgot to mention: We are using Point Buy for character creation, 27 points.

And yeah, I figured Clerics would make great buffers but poor controllers.

[Mr.Spastic]

But if I played a Hill Dwarf Druid, I wouldn't have the feat, right now at least, because I'll probably use my first ASI to improve Wisdom.

Oh, right, I forgot to mention: We are using Point Buy for character creation, 27 points.

And yeah, I figured Clerics would make great buffers but poor controllers.

You were at level five so I was making suggestions.

For base stats:
Str:12-14
Dex:12-14
Con:14 (+2)
Int:8-10
Wis:15 (+1)
Cha:8

Then go for the ability score increase at level four to get 18 wis. The reason I suggest druid over cleric is because they both have healing and buff(less so druid) but druid has better control and with land circle you get Natural recover to get back spell slots on short rests. Always good to get back spell slots when you are mainly running casting.

[Mr.Spastic]

Your hp would be good to as a hill dwarf too. Plus the poison resistance. If you take averages you have 48 hp at level 5, not bad for a control caster.

[jiriku]

To set your expectations moving from 3.5 to 5e:

The Concentration requirement fundamentally changes how all spellcasters operate. Essentially, any spell that is a summon, battlefield control, or buff spell will require your Concentration, meaning that you can only have one spell of any of those types running in a given encounter (exceptions exist). You cannot stack buffs. You cannot throw down multiple control spells. You cannot summon piles of minions. You cannot summon or control while buffed (exceptions exist).

Cantrips step into that gap. They are relevant in combat, although rarely as effective as your spell slots.

Since all the best spells require concentration, feats that improve it are good. Resilience and Warcaster are the feats to look at. But in general stat bonii are good and only a well-chosen feat is superior to taking the +2 ability score increase.

Hope that helps.

[Supermouse]

Yeah, maybe the dwarf perks would still be better than the feat.

And I've already decided for the Druid. Arctic, as it looks like the best controller.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Mr.Spastic]

No problem. Arctic druids are one of my favorite casters in the game so I'm always happy to point out their good points to other players. An additional suggestion for cantrips would be to take Frostbite as one. It doesn't hit all that often due to it having a con save, but when it does it gives disadvantage to the targets next attack roll. This can be brutal with slow, which restricts creatures to one attack per round.

[Supermouse]

Since all the best spells require concentration, feats that improve it are good. Resilience and Warcaster are the feats to look at. But in general stat bonii are good and only a well-chosen feat is superior to taking the +2 ability score increase.

Hope that helps.

Well, Resilience gives +1 to CON, so in terms of ability score increase, a variant Human vould be just like a Hill Dwarf (+2 CON, +1 WIS). So the difference would be mostly Proficiency in CON Saving Throws and 30ft speed vs Poison Resistance and +1 HP/lvl (the Dwarven Weapon Proficiencies aren't too useful, and the variant Human can get the Tool Proficiency through clever use of that extra Skill Proficiency). Analizing like this, i think variant Human is not so bad, and that maybe Resilience is better than Warcaster for this char.



No problem. Arctic druids are one of my favorite casters in the game so I'm always happy to point out their good points to other players. An additional suggestion for cantrips would be to take Frostbite as one. It doesn't hit all that often due to it having a con save, but when it does it gives disadvantage to the targets next attack roll. This can be brutal with slow, which restricts creatures to one attack per round.

Yeah, it seems Arctic Druids are very underrated. People drool over Grassland or Underdark, but it seems to me that Arctic has the best balance in useful spells to always have prepared and nice spells to have outside of the Druid list.

[Mikaleus]

I also advise Hill Dwarf Druid. I play a shepherd Druid, but the arctic for land druids is a really good option.
I’m also a fan of Coastal.

[strangebloke]

Your DM is still playing 3.5. Arcane Casters like wizards and sorcerers are not really overpowered anymore.

Your party wants healing? Pick up healing spirit, the most broken healing spell in the game, and they'll have all the healing they want for the cost of a second-level spell slot. (run this by your DM. This spell is actually broken, and he seems to want to avoid that)

Pass Without Trace is another great spell

Spike Growth is fun, particularly if you have the thorn whip cantrip. Pull 'em through the spikes!

Plant Growth, Slow, Fog Cloud, and Sleet Storm are all really solid control spells.

Be sure, too, that you pick non-concentration spells like darkvision, ice knife, thunderwave, and blight. Especially at higher levels, the druid list can become altogether too efficient for its own good.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

The fact that your DM let, imo the strongest arcane caster in is a laugh actually. Lore Bards are awesome.

I apologize if this comes out incoherently.

The Arch-Druid: a druid who focuses on controlling and altering the battlefield to create winning conditions.

With going land druid you'll be in caster form most of the time rather then beast form, having a decent set of armor is good because things will get through to you. Talk to your DM about how easily you'll be able to get non metal armor or if he can nix that restriction.

Concentration: some consider the large amount of concentration spells a bad thing for Druids. I disagree, these allow you to conserve your spell slots and have more spells over the entire day.

Personally I'm a fan of Human Variant when starting at 1 but when starting higher I like to change it up.

Pros: +2 Con, +1 Wis, Poison Resistance, Darkvision, Extra HP,
Cons: 25' Movement, no Dex bonus
Stats: 8,14,16,10,18,10

Pros: +2 Dex, +1 Wis, 35' Movement, Darkvision, Trance, Longbow Proficiency, Perception Proficiency saving you a skill tax.
Cons: Can't really think of any.
Stats: 8,15,15,10,18,10 (the odd dex and con would be great for 1/2 feats specifically resilient con, and medium armor mastery.)
Pros: +1 to any 2 stats, Free Feat at 1, an extra language which can be Sylvan, and a free skill proficiency.
Cons: No Darkvision
Stats: 8,16,16,8,18,8 Feat: resilient con


Note these are just options which ones you take are up to you and you alone. These are all ones I would recommend. I was doing a full write up but that takes forever.

First Level: Absorb elements, Charm Person(charmed is an interesting condition that people overlook, This is hard to make stick but if the enemy is next in line you can make it basically waste it's turn)Detect Magic, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Fog cloud, Longstrider, Speak with animals

Second Level: Darkvision, Flaming Sphere, Healing spirit, Hold Person, Pass without Trace, Spike Growth.

Third Level: Conjure Animals, Plant Growth*, Dispel magic, Slow

Fourth Level: Confusion, Freedom of movement, Polymorph, Wall of Fire, Watery Sphere.

Fifth Level: Geas, Wall of stone.

Sixth Level: Heroes Feast, wall of thorns,

Seventh Level: Mirage Arcane, Reverse Gravity

Eighth level: Antipathy, feeblemind

Ninth Level: Foresight

[Supermouse]

-SNIP-

Thanks for the tips. And yeah, no mention about the Lore bard. When I was looking for other classes after he told me Sorcerer and Wizard weren't allowed, I decided to look at Bard, and Lore Bard seem borderline broken to me, with the ability to cherrypick spells from any list (although not many spells). And yeah, just like Strangebloke said, arcane casters don't look so amazingly broken in 5E, the removal of most save-or-die spells, the concentration limit and the very low number of high level spell slots did a good job at balancing the classes.


I'm assuming that on the stats you have put in the races, you are already considering that I'll use my 4th level ASI to increase WIS, right?
I was making the character right now, and making some decisions, and thought about going VHuman, because the extra feat, language and skill looked better than what the Dwarf give (also, a bit of personal bias, as I'm not much a fan of Dwarves).
Although the Wood Elf is also pretty good, despite having a lower CON and no feat. The Elf perks look a bit better than the Dwarf ones. It's just a shame losing the feat, it looks like preventing concentration loss will be really important for the Druid, and I don't think I want to trade my first and second ASI for a feat before pumpíng WIS to 20.

As for the feat, after rereading both, I think War Caster would be better than Resilient (CON), wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure someone else already did the math, but it looks like advantage on the roll is a bit better than the proficiency bonus, specially at the lower levels (right now it's just a +3). Of course, it also means I'll lose the +1 to CON, so I'll probably run with 14 CON to avoid an odd stat, so the difference would be +4. Still, War Caster has the other bonuses.

The spell selections are good, and it's something I'll need to worry because I'll want some stuff without concentration to not be locked all the time. However, since the spell selection is not permanent, I'm not that concerned, as I'll be able to change it if I make bad selections.
The cantrips, however, are a bit more permanent.

So far, I'm thinking in picking Frostbite (cantrip debuff), Guidance (good buff), Thorn Whip (cantrip control and something against people who'll easily pass the CON saving throw) and ??? IDK what to pick on the last slot. Maybe Produce Flame if I'm going Human, although I already have access to Darkvision.


Edit: Also, I saw that you went the route of really dumping the dump stats, going all the way down to 8. IDK if during gameplay in 5E it doesn't matter too much, but I'm always worried that this -1 will bite me in the ass. Also, I don't think I've read it anywhere in the book, but doesn't 5E have that same stuff that the older editions had that if you had less than 9 INT your character would be particularly dumb and speak funny? The array I went with was STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 18 (ASI) CHA 10

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I'm on my phone now so formatting is going to suffer.

1. I'm assuming that on the stats you have put in the races, you are already considering that I'll use my 4th level ASI to increase WIS, right?

Correct.

2. I was making the character right now, and making some decisions, and thought about going VHuman, because the extra feat, language and skill looked better than what the Dwarf give (also, a bit of personal bias, as I'm not much a fan of Dwarves). Although the Wood Elf is also pretty good, despite having a lower CON and no feat. The Elf perks look a bit better than the Dwarf ones.

This is honestly such a personal choice that you really can't go wrong. Dwarf is tankier, Wood elf is a mobile skirmisher, human is super variable. The stuff I gave is imo optimized but isn't necessarily the best for you.
In reply to the edit, I went for optimising, so for example on the human in play I'd probably settle for 8,14,14,12,18,10 or something like that and choose different feats later. Str is a rarish save and most of it's associated checks are actually Athletics so I grab that proficiency. Nowhere in any 5e book do you play stupid due to 8 int, 4 or less and then we'd be talking (or not since you couldn't speak)

3. It's just a shame losing the feat, it looks like preventing concentration loss will be really important for the Druid, and I don't think I want to trade my first and second ASI for a feat before pumpíng WIS to 20.

You have spell slots to burn, while losing concentration sucks its not the end of the world. Sometimes it's even helpful as you might want to place the spell in a new location.

4. As for the feat, after rereading both, I think War Caster would be better than Resilient (CON), wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure someone else already did the math, but it looks like advantage on the roll is a bit better than the proficiency bonus, specially at the lower levels (right now it's just a +3). Of course, it also means I'll lose the +1 to CON, so I'll probably run with 14 CON to avoid an odd stat, so the difference would be +4. Still, War Caster has the other bonuses.

I love warcaster and the math at this level is slightly in it's favor, res con just fleshed in so well with the stats that it made sense. 10,14,14,12,18,10 seems extremely solid as well. You might also look into magic initiate or spell sniper I never feel that I have enough cantrips as a druid.

5. The spell selections are good, and it's something I'll need to worry because I'll want some stuff without concentration to not be locked all the time. However, since the spell selection is not permanent, I'm not that concerned, as I'll be able to change it if I make bad selections.

There aren't bad spell decisions for druids just temporary setbacks. Imo long lasting control spells mixed with cantrips are the way to go. Though the occasional Ice knife or erupting Earth is a great supplement.

Plant growth+Spike growth+erupting Earth will hold down any bottle neck very very well.

6. cantrips, however, are a bit more permanent.
So far, I'm thinking in picking Frostbite (cantrip debuff), Guidance (good buff), Thorn Whip (cantrip control and something against people who'll easily pass the CON saving throw) and ??? IDK what to pick on the last slot. Maybe Produce Flame if I'm going Human, although I already have access to Darkvision.

My philosophy on cantrips is to have a Max of 2 combat cantrips, usually that is a ranged cantrip and maybe a melee cantrip. (Generally if I'm in caster form and in melee though it's disengage time.) Personally I like produce flame and thornwhip as produce flame is just straight useful and thornwhip can combo with things like Spike growth.