using a saving throw in a skill contest

[diplomancer]

Recently I was thinking about using a Cha Saving Throw to resist an Intimidation attempt. For me it makes a lot of sense, because to resist intimidation (which is the attempt to impose your personality over someone else's) is better characterized as a saving throw than as a skill.

3 questions:
1- are there any drawbacks to this approach (I am talking strictly about NPC's resisting an intimidation attempt. PCs are free to choose their reactions if they are not under some magical effect)
2- If that would make it too random, how about using 10+Cha Save Bonus as the DC?
3- Can you guys think of other applications for this idea?

[Unoriginal]

If you want to use a saving throw for this, you probably should use WIS.

Personally though I think you're better off using CHA (Intimidation) vs a DC which depends on circumstances (who is the target, how much of a danger you can actually be to them, etc)

[diplomancer]

What made me think of that was seeing again Inglorious Basterds, specifically the scene where the Basterds are interrogating the German officer.

It should have been a very successful intimidation attempt (and it worked well with the conscripted soldier), but it failed with the officer. I wouldn't say that the officer showed great wisdom (quite the contrary), but a very strong sense of personality, which Cha is supposed to model.

If I was running that scene, I would give advantage to the intimidation attempt (or disadvantage to the save) but I would run it as Skill vs Cha Saving throw (whether passive or random Im not sure).

[Unoriginal]

What made me think of that was seeing again Inglorious Basterds, specifically the scene where the Basterds are interrogating the German officer.

It should have been a very successful intimidation attempt (and it worked well with the conscripted soldier), but it failed with the officer. I wouldn't say that the officer showed great wisdom (quite the contrary), but a very strong sense of personality, which Cha is supposed to model.

If I was running that scene, I would give advantage to the intimidation attempt (or disadvantage to the save) but I would run it as Skill vs Cha Saving throw (whether passive or random Im not sure).

I think that'd be better represented by a CHA (Intimidation) check vs a set DC. The DC for the conscripted soldier was lower than for the officier, due to their circumstances and personalities.

Other than that, realizing "this guy isn't scary enough to make me betray my principles" is definitively a WIS-related thing in D&D. Having high Charisma does not make you capable of resisting others' influences better.

[Man_Over_Game]

Brief summary of RAW uses for each attribute saving throw:

Strength: Resisted by raw power, often when a melee attack has already hit and is inflicting a secondary effect.
Dexterity: Dodging, often for explosive spells or traps.
Constitution: Resisting due to pain, endurance, or shear size.
Wisdom: Seeing through illusions and enchantments, usually to avoid being confused or tricked.
Intelligence: Resisting an attack on your mind, usually caused by an explicit psychic hostility.
Charisma: Resisting influence to be something you're not, including using shear force of will to maintain your planar presence.

Wisdom is to avoid being blinded by a lie, and to avoid being tricked into making a serious mistake. They're your decisions, using incorrect reasoning (such as Confusion). This is about knowing what should be true, or paying attention to minor details.

Intelligence is used to avoid being actually attacked mentally. This is akin to something ripping a piece out of your mind to make you less. Where the others manipulate you, this is a direct wound on your intellect. This is about having a sturdy mind.

Charisma is used to know who you are, where you belong, and denying that which tries to forcefully change you. This is reflective of shear willpower, being only what you define yourself to be.

Consider that spells like Bane, Calm Emotions, and Zone of Truth all use Charisma saves.

So it depends on whether he's being coerced into doing something he doesn't feel comfortable with (Charisma), or being tricked into believing something is correct (Wisdom). With the OP's scenario, I'd be inclined to make it a Charisma save.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Hmm. I would reverse Wisdom and Intelligence in your second paragraph.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hmm. I would reverse Wisdom and Intelligence in your second paragraph.

Look at the spells that require saving throws.

You'll see that Wisdom resists charm, illusion, and other enchantment effects.

You'll see that intelligence resists spells that deal psychic damage.

And you'll also see that Charisma has few saving throws, but they're all related to resisting emotional or planar effects.

[JackPhoenix]

You'll see that Wisdom resists charm, illusion, and other enchantment effects.

Except it doesn't. Illusions that allow saves at all use Int. Moreover, illusions generally allow Intelligence (Investigation) checks to reveal them, not Wisdom (Perception). And in one odd case, (Seeming), Cha save.

Illusions and enchantments are different schools.


And you'll also see that Charisma has few saving throws, but they're all related to resisting emotional or planar effects.

There's exactly one Cha save that deals with emotions: Calm Emotions spell. Otherwise, fear effects (fear is certainly an emotion) fall under Wisdom. But you're right about planar effects.

[Man_Over_Game]

Except it doesn't. Illusions that allow saves at all use Int. Moreover, illusions generally allow Intelligence (Investigation) checks to reveal them, not Wisdom (Perception). And in one odd case, (Seeming), Cha save.

Illusions and enchantments are different schools.



There's exactly one Cha save that deals with emotions: Calm Emotions spell. Otherwise, fear effects (fear is certainly an emotion) fall under Wisdom. But you're right about planar effects.

There are a few exceptions to the first bullet. Notably, Phantasmal Killer and Weird use Wisdom saves, despite being Illusion, but they also utilize fear. Otherwise, you're absolutely right, that was a mistake on my part. It seems anything fear related, even if it comes from an Illusion spell, will always be Wisdom.

On the Cha save, it resists things like Zone of Truth or Bane. In the case of Seeming, you are forcefully changing their appearance against their will. Because of the fact that alignment has a strong relation to planar certain planar locations and creatures (Modrons being explicitly Lawful Neutral, on a Lawful Neutral plane, for instance), I think that your location in the planar sense of things is tied to your own self-identity. This also ties in with the fact that several planes have abilities to forcefully change who you are, and Banish effects can permanently send you away, as long as you're sent to your home. All the Charisma saves seem to imply that it focuses on "being true to yourself", and your place in the planar world is also a part of who you are.

[diplomancer]

I really think that Cha save is the most appropriate in the case I thought of, but this is something of a tangent (i.e, which save to use)

What I really would like to know is what people think of the general idea (using a saving throw or a "passive save" to establish the DC of a skill check). And, if they think its a good idea, to what other scenarios that idea could be applied?

[Man_Over_Game]

I really think that Cha save is the most appropriate in the case I thought of, but this is something of a tangent (i.e, which save to use)

What I really would like to know is what people think of the general idea (using a saving throw or a "passive save" to establish the DC of a skill check). And, if they think its a good idea, to what other scenarios that idea could be applied?

I'd recommend using saves when the target isn't aware or able to respond in-kind. When your training isn't applicable.

For example, dodging a trap isn't reflected in your talent in Acrobatics or Thieves' Tools; it's reflected with a Dexterity Saving Throw. Acrobatics training, provided by your background as a performer, teaches you balance, but it doesn't really tell you how to dodge a missile, where your Dexterity Saving Throw proficiency (gained during your adventuring training) would. On the other hand, resisting a Grapple is a contested check using their own Athletics or Acrobatics skill.

In a debate, I'd say it's a contest. In the case of an insult or challenge, I'd make it a saving throw.

Another way to determine which to use is by determining what should happen if the target would succeed the contest/saving throw. If they succeeded, and the effect was lessened or having no additional changes, that's a Saving Throw. If they succeeded, and something is now in their favor, that's a contest.

3 people choosing to do a drinking contest would probably roll an increasing Constitution saving throw, since their individual actions do not influence each other.

However, 2 people playing a video game against one another would roll an Intelligence check contest, since they directly influence the level of success for the other.