How would you convince a 20th level Wizard?

[Xar Zarath]

So lets say a vanilla generalist Human Wizard max 20th level with the appropriate WBL (for all intents and purposes a PC) suddenly visits our world, in such a way that cannot be denied that he has some sort of power we don't truly understand.

This Wizard wants to vacation in our world and actually resides in a demiplane somewhere far away. Various governments, organisations and other power groups/individuals along with various leading men and women in all walks of life and varying influences attempt to make peaceable contact once they realise this Wizard's sheer power and knowledge.

But the Wizard wants nothing to do with our people or power plays. He just wants to be left to his own devices and wants to idle the time away here. But the people of our world wont let the Wizard off that easy and try to cajole him at best or threaten him at worst.

The Wizard however points out a few key things:

1. The Wizard isn't interested in advancing our knowledge or helping us to understand magic or the arcane.
2. He's rich and can acquire vast riches on his own power and so bribery is out
3. Knowledge of our scientific achievements is nothing to him, he visits other worlds and knows of technology. Consider that the Wizard has spells relating to technology as per d20 Modern
4. He's immortal or as close as, as he has a Clone ready for backup and operates an Astral Projection most of the time
5. He's got contingencies ready so if we strike and fail to kill him, his spells simply warp him back to his demiplane so we could have an angry Wizard on our hand.

So my question is, if you had control of a vast operation like say a government funded program aimed at making the Wizard enhance our magical knowledge, how would you go about it? Threats? Blackmail if at all possible? Also note, you would not be the only one and have to actively compete against other government operatives, private organisations and individuals with resources, so you are facing competition as well.

[Elricaltovilla]

Honestly? I'd ask him very nicely. Extend an offer of friendship, ask if there is anything we can do make his visit more pleasant and express an honest, sincere interest in him as a person.

There's little to nothing that a modern day corporation or government can do to a properly prepared level 20 wizard and little to nothing we can offer him. Being polite, friendly and respectful is probably the only way to score any real points with the guy. It'll take time, but once a friendship is built, that relationship can be leveraged.

Or for a joke answer: Send him a crate of Thin Mints and Samoa cookies. Once he's hooked on chocolate crack he'll be putty in my hands.

[Malphegor]

Five beautiful words: "I'll give you anything."

Anyone in power knows that those words are deliciously exploitable. Anything means anything. And if someone swears to give you anything in exchange for a small trifle... Well, that becomes interesting.

The wizard is rich. The wizard has all he requires. He's okay with idling away.

But. If there is anything they require, from scratching their armpit to chucking the trash into some universe's Mount Doom equivalent, or something they don't feel like doing at this time... You kneel on them knees and beg him to let him let you do his chores for him.

A powerful wizard doesn't need you. But it might indulge you just to keep you from being a pest.

[flappeercraft]

Honestly, there's nothing we can do. If he wants something from us he can just Mindrape the higher ups. Threats won't work, he's a level 20 wizard, after all, we don't have the means to hurt him.

Nothing we can do about it, anything we do or offer he's a couple spells away from having it his way regardless.

[Quertus]

Five beautiful words: "I'll give you anything."

Appealing to the power of Chaos will not help you if the Wizard is Lawful. (by my count, that's 4 words)


So my question is, if you had control of a vast operation like say a government funded program aimed at making the Wizard enhance our magical knowledge, how would you go about it? Threats? Blackmail if at all possible? Also note, you would not be the only one and have to actively compete against other government operatives, private organisations and individuals with resources, so you are facing competition as well.

Hmmm... were they to try this on Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named (who almost matches your criteria, beyond being much higher level)... their best bet would be to appeal to the fact that he has divinations, and ask him to divine whether it wouldn't be in his best interests to teach them magic.

[Caylin]

The good old fashioned way: Seduce him. Once he is emotionally invested in me begin to make requests. Also get to know him so as to learn how he thinks and what might move him to help med. But the best bet is if he is actually in love with me.

[Sto]

Bring him a Margarita and offer to do my best to help him enjoy the simplicity of our world. Maybe take him to one of those combination pizza/arcade resteraunts. Go golfing, go to a few conventions. Get him hooked on Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering so that his infinite wealth drains away in months. Find ways to make him see mundane life here extremely enjoyable. And then ask him the miniscule favor of teaching me how to use the Prestidigitation cantrip. Surely that won't be too much?

[tyckspoon]

Draw up a list of current scientific mysteries we'd really like to have answers about. Send it to him with a polite request to look into these should any of them sound interesting to him, along with an assortment of gift items and an offer of an attended (local guides, assistants to handle finding him interesting foods, etc) vacation wherever it should happen to please him to visit. There's nothing we can offer him that he can't find for himself if he's willing to apply his own effort to it, but then that would be equally true if he just hung out in his own demiplane and we never found out he existed. If he came to our plane there's something here he's interested in, so find out what it is in as friendly a fashion as possible and help him get it. We don't really have leverage on this individual, so our best bet is to make a good impression and see if basic friendliness and reciprocity will lead him to spend a (to him) insignificant amount of time and resources to do a favor - do a divination or two to answer a difficult-to-us question or share a copy of a book of introductory magic theory.

[Quertus]

The good old fashioned way: Seduce him.


Get him hooked on Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering so that his infinite wealth drains away in months.

You fiends! I'm glad I don't need to know which of you to promote in the hierarchy of the Baatezu.

[tyckspoon]

You fiends! I'm glad I don't need to know which of you to promote in the hierarchy of the Baatezu.

I'm now imagining a roomful of Unseen Servants assigned to painting new models, with maybe a few Unseen Crafters doing assembly and conversion/customization work on bits.

[Elricaltovilla]

You fiends! I'm glad I don't need to know which of you to promote in the hierarchy of the Baatezu.

How are they fiends, but my suggestion of getting him addicted to girl scout cookies doesn't even register?

[Quertus]

How are they fiends, but my suggestion of getting him addicted to girl scout cookies doesn't even register?

Because I was more impressed with your opening statement of "ask very nicely" than the lethal deliciousness of even girlscout mint. Do we really want to see the repercussions of a 20th level Milo complaining that he doesn't have room in his build for the "Obese" feat, and taking out his frustrations for either force-changing his build, or for deliciousness withdraw, on our world?

[Elricaltovilla]

Because I was more impressed with your opening statement of "ask very nicely" than the lethal deliciousness of even girlscout mint. Do we really want to see the repercussions of a 20th level Milo complaining that he doesn't have room in his build for the "Obese" feat, and taking out his frustrations for force-changing his build on our world?

If it means he mind rapes the girl scout organization into selling thin mints all year round, then I'm willing to risk it.

[Peat]

Challenge him to a duel with a half brick in a sock

[Feantar]

The good old fashioned way: Seduce him. Once he is emotionally invested in me begin to make requests. Also get to know him so as to learn how he thinks and what might move him to help med. But the best bet is if he is actually in love with me.

The only issue with such tactics is detect thoughts, and/or other such divinations. It can happen, but in general it has to happen without the seducer(at least) knowing they are actually seducing.

[gkathellar]

Make their vacation as pleasant as possible. Tours, art museums, five star dinners, fancy wine, performances from musicians and theater companies, conversation with intellectuals, passwords for all the major streaming services, access to well-curated libraries, that sort of thing (season to taste). Wizardry can do a lot, but it can’t write Shakespeare.

What do you get for the man who has everything? Aesthetic experiences.

[Xar Zarath]

The good old fashioned way: Seduce him. Once he is emotionally invested in me begin to make requests. Also get to know him so as to learn how he thinks and what might move him to help med. But the best bet is if he is actually in love with me.

Hmm, just putting this out there but considering the Wizard can summon/bind succubi/dryads/nymps/genies etc, a normal human being may not be up to par. Don't mean any insult but for the sake of the thread, I kinda see a problem with a normal human trying to match up with an immortal planar being made of pure sin and lust.


Draw up a list of current scientific mysteries we'd really like to have answers about. Send it to him with a polite request to look into these should any of them sound interesting to him...

As was stated in the OP, the Wizard has no interest in scientific knowledge and can be considered to have spells that affect technology a'la d20 modern/urban arcana. But there may be scientists who would pique a wizard's curiosity

[Saintheart]

There is one thing he does lack:

Power.

Oh, not arcane mysteries or warping the universe sort of power. I mean power over human beings, the capacity to be a king, the capacity to determine whether people live or die.

Give a man a taste of actual power over other people, and he'll be hooked. Particularly the kind of power that derives from him and not from his cheating methods of casting Glibness to get what he wants. Or from Dark Chaos Shuffling himself Leadership.

In short, give him control of the organisation.

[unseenmage]

There is one thing he does lack:

Power.

Oh, not arcane mysteries or warping the universe sort of power. I mean power over human beings, the capacity to be a king, the capacity to determine whether people live or die.

Give a man a taste of actual power over other people, and he'll be hooked. Particularly the kind of power that derives from him and not from his cheating methods of casting Glibness to get what he wants. Or from Dark Chaos Shuffling himself Leadership.

In short, give him control of the organisation.

Isn't there a core magic item that just let's you command people though.

Stat book of Cha would do this just as well.

20th level WBL commands power just fine.

[Crake]

I'd appeal to his sensibilities. If he wants to idle about in our world, and see all the great things we have to offer, why not help out by making the world a better place, easing some of the suffering, alleviating some of our burdens so we can better work on the more interesting parts of life. Sure he's a wizard, he can have anything he wants, but his speciality is magic. He doesn't have technology. I'm sure there are many amazing things in our world that would fascinate him, but if he wants more from us, there's nothing stopping him from giving us a helping hand along the way.

[NichG]

So lets say a vanilla generalist Human Wizard max 20th level with the appropriate WBL (for all intents and purposes a PC) suddenly visits our world, in such a way that cannot be denied that he has some sort of power we don't truly understand.

This Wizard wants to vacation in our world and actually resides in a demiplane somewhere far away. Various governments, organisations and other power groups/individuals along with various leading men and women in all walks of life and varying influences attempt to make peaceable contact once they realise this Wizard's sheer power and knowledge.

But the Wizard wants nothing to do with our people or power plays. He just wants to be left to his own devices and wants to idle the time away here. But the people of our world wont let the Wizard off that easy and try to cajole him at best or threaten him at worst.

The Wizard however points out a few key things:

1. The Wizard isn't interested in advancing our knowledge or helping us to understand magic or the arcane.
2. He's rich and can acquire vast riches on his own power and so bribery is out
3. Knowledge of our scientific achievements is nothing to him, he visits other worlds and knows of technology. Consider that the Wizard has spells relating to technology as per d20 Modern
4. He's immortal or as close as, as he has a Clone ready for backup and operates an Astral Projection most of the time
5. He's got contingencies ready so if we strike and fail to kill him, his spells simply warp him back to his demiplane so we could have an angry Wizard on our hand.

So my question is, if you had control of a vast operation like say a government funded program aimed at making the Wizard enhance our magical knowledge, how would you go about it? Threats? Blackmail if at all possible? Also note, you would not be the only one and have to actively compete against other government operatives, private organisations and individuals with resources, so you are facing competition as well.

Rather than 'wizard' particularly, the following could apply to any omnipotent being that decides to go slumming on a modern Earth, but I'll continue to use 'wizard' to refer to such.

If they are visiting this world rather than just staying in their demiplane, it means that there actually are things they want that require external context to obtain, otherwise they wouldn't bother. Satisfying curiosity, having a good time, etc - one way or another, the decision to leave isolation must originate from some desire that can't be met in isolation, even if that desire is literally just to see how people try to manipulate them when they make themselves known.

If there's something they want, it is therefore also possible for them to end up in a situation where they aren't satisfied by what they end up getting.

Ergo, the way to obtain favors is to position ones-self as a fulcrum around which those possibilities vary. That doesn't mean taking an adversarial role, but rather it means creating the impression that the easiest way for the wizard to influence their ability to obtain maximum satisfaction from the situation is to act through you, rather than to act around you. Then the next step is to make it so that those actions take the form of things which, incidentally and with minimal consequence for the wizard, fulfill your own goals.

So e.g. if one country wants to leverage the wizard's visit for their own advantage, they could basically offer to cut the red tape for the wizard within their territory - minimize the number of times that the wizard has to go and mind-control or bribe the locals, the number of entertaining nights ruined by someone being officious or nosy, etc. In exchange, they commit some advantageous act which would normally be at mild risk for provoking global retaliation, since other countries staging e.g. military interventions or other trouble during the wizard's visit would risk provoking a response. In the end, the wizard doesn't have to do anything but exist and be sipping Mai Tais here rather than there, but can confer a strong advantage to their host. Optimizing this strategy means ensuring that the ways in which you take advantage of that protection a) don't get back to the wizard and b) don't turn into losses too easily if the wizard decides to go back home on a whim.

The hardball approach would be to prop up a sock puppet that actually threatens to make it impossible for anyone to be satisfied (e.g. by destroying the peace in the area that the wizard wants to visit), such that the wizard's intervention to neutralize the sock puppet would cause collateral damage to an enemy. But that's very risky.

[Florian]

Our reality, so our basic rules and laws of nature apply. That makes it easy. Introduce the Wizard to speed and cokain, proceed to crack or meth until he is totally ruined, your whore and will teach you anything or cast any spell for you for the next high.

[Anymage]

Do our best to ensure that his visit is uneventfully pleasant, with just a touch of boring. Maybe include a few lectures by famous scientists or tours of impressive scientific facilities, so that curiosity and that INT score lead him to poke around on his own time and give us some new ideas for research. But ultimately, we have no real way to get anything over on this guy and his simple presence risks destabilizing institutions around him. (And after he leaves, whatever was built up around him might be similarly precarious.) As such, letting him get his tourist on and hoping he leaves quickly is really the best that people can hope for.

[Xar Zarath]

I'd appeal to his sensibilities. If he wants to idle about in our world, and see all the great things we have to offer, why not help out by making the world a better place, easing some of the suffering, alleviating some of our burdens so we can better work on the more interesting parts of life. Sure he's a wizard, he can have anything he wants, but his speciality is magic. He doesn't have technology. I'm sure there are many amazing things in our world that would fascinate him, but if he wants more from us, there's nothing stopping him from giving us a helping hand along the way.

Not to be insulting or anything like that, but if a Wizard with sufficient power can essentially do magically what is usually done technologically, wouldn't his "magitech" suffice? Not to mention worlds like Eberron providing new ideas on magi tech so technically our tech is not exactly up to dnd magic standards at least in terms of teleportation, dimension hopping, summoning, resurrection...


Our reality, so our basic rules and laws of nature apply. That makes it easy. Introduce the Wizard to speed and cokain, proceed to crack or meth until he is totally ruined, your whore and will teach you anything or cast any spell for you for the next high.

In BoVD there is a spell called Addiction which is Enchantment causing the target to fall into an instant addiction with a chosen drug and the other is in BoED called Remove Addiction which cures all addiction a target suffers from, a 2nd level cleric spell. A Least Wish or Spell Research could figure such a spell out, since I stated that the Wizard is like more or less a PC, so it would be correct to assume he would be somewhat optimized.

However there are also some drugs provided as per BoVD so the drugs in there could mess with us even more cruelly?

[noob]

Not to be insulting or anything like that, but if a Wizard with sufficient power can essentially do magically what is usually done technologically, wouldn't his "magitech" suffice? Not to mention worlds like Eberron providing new ideas on magi tech so technically our tech is not exactly up to dnd magic standards at least in terms of teleportation, dimension hopping, summoning, resurrection...



In BoVD there is a spell called Addiction which is Enchantment causing the target to fall into an instant addiction with a chosen drug and the other is in BoED called Remove Addiction which cures all addiction a target suffers from, a 2nd level cleric spell. A Least Wish or Spell Research could figure such a spell out, since I stated that the Wizard is like more or less a PC, so it would be correct to assume he would be somewhat optimized.

However there are also some drugs provided as per BoVD so the drugs in there could mess with us even more cruelly?

Our technology probably is not shut down by antimagic zones.

[Wraith]

Go ask Mordenkainen - this was explicitly his schtick back in 2nd Edition and the Castle Greyhawk module.

He was a Wizard so powerful that he would holiday on our Earth, and liked it so much that he eventually founded his own movie production studio here. He saved a fortune on special effects by bringing actual dragons and monsters through in place of CGI or claymation. :smalltongue:

So the trick seems to be, find your Wizard a hobby in something that only we can provide - the MtG or Warhammer suggestion might not actually have been such a bad idea in comparison, though you'd get bonus points for getting him hooked on role-playing games like Cyberpunk or D&D - maybe he'd like to start again as a martial class? :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

I'd have someone explain to him that being able to successfully impart that kind of magical knowledge might just be the monumental undertaking that will become the most epic eXPerience of his entire immortal life, something that would make his past eXPeriences (cheesy or otherwise) pale in comparison.


Also, how big of an ego does he have? Does he think he has what it takes to shake the very foundations of this world by teaching magic?

[Mystral]

Since he's vacationing here, just offer him anything he wants or needs for his vacation. If that includes leaving him in peace, so be it.

[Telonius]

One thing that can help even the most powerful Wizard: the bonus from Aid Another on skill checks is untyped and stackable. If he's doing any kind of spell research, we have something to offer him.

[Feantar]

Wizardry can do a lot, but it can’t write Shakespeare.

That is true. What you write would probably be much better than Shapespeare.

Wizard: take 10 + maxed INT for a +12, Skill spells for a +29(Magecraft +5 Greater Heroism +4 Moment of Prescience +20 plus wieldskill for half a rank to count as trained*) +2 a M/w tool(A library)= 54.
vs

Shakespeare: An expert (we usually model master NPCs as level 5) take 10 + Maxed INT +4 + 8 ranks + 3 Skill Focus +2 for a M/w tool = 27

Uber Shakespeare: Expert 20: 10 + Maxed INT +6 + 23 ranks +3 Skill Focus +2 for a M/w tool = 44

*Alternatively, just take a rank.

I think the problem with such a being is that it is effectively a god; not only in power but in mentality. People will be similar to ants. Of course, we don't tend to play genius wizards like that but...

[Manyasone]

Challenge him to a duel with a half brick in a sock

A special sort of brick, Rincer of Winds?

[Rhedyn]

So lets say a vanilla generalist Human Wizard max 20th level with the appropriate WBL (for all intents and purposes a PC) suddenly visits our world, in such a way that cannot be denied that he has some sort of power we don't truly understand.

This Wizard wants to vacation in our world and actually resides in a demiplane somewhere far away. Various governments, organisations and other power groups/individuals along with various leading men and women in all walks of life and varying influences attempt to make peaceable contact once they realise this Wizard's sheer power and knowledge.

But the Wizard wants nothing to do with our people or power plays. He just wants to be left to his own devices and wants to idle the time away here. But the people of our world wont let the Wizard off that easy and try to cajole him at best or threaten him at worst.

The Wizard however points out a few key things:

1. The Wizard isn't interested in advancing our knowledge or helping us to understand magic or the arcane.
2. He's rich and can acquire vast riches on his own power and so bribery is out
3. Knowledge of our scientific achievements is nothing to him, he visits other worlds and knows of technology. Consider that the Wizard has spells relating to technology as per d20 Modern
4. He's immortal or as close as, as he has a Clone ready for backup and operates an Astral Projection most of the time
5. He's got contingencies ready so if we strike and fail to kill him, his spells simply warp him back to his demiplane so we could have an angry Wizard on our hand.

So my question is, if you had control of a vast operation like say a government funded program aimed at making the Wizard enhance our magical knowledge, how would you go about it? Threats? Blackmail if at all possible? Also note, you would not be the only one and have to actively compete against other government operatives, private organisations and individuals with resources, so you are facing competition as well.

Pfff easy, D&D and Videogames.

Whenever he corrects the Dungeon Master or sends some game company hatemail, you will slowly accumulated the knowledge you wanted from him.

[Crake]

Not to be insulting or anything like that, but if a Wizard with sufficient power can essentially do magically what is usually done technologically, wouldn't his "magitech" suffice? Not to mention worlds like Eberron providing new ideas on magi tech so technically our tech is not exactly up to dnd magic standards at least in terms of teleportation, dimension hopping, summoning, resurrection...

The idea would be that he would find pure technology an interesting novelty. That's pretty much the only reason I can imagine him wanting to come here, after all, a level 20 wizard could literally make a world of his own, populate it however he wants, and have the people do whatever he wishes. Why else would he want to come visit our world, what would he want from us aside from something he's never seen before: purely mundane technology.

[unseenmage]

...
Why else would he want to come visit our world, what would he want from us aside from something he's never seen before: purely mundane technology.

Pop culture.

Tech is just another means to ends a lvl 20 fullcaster has had handled since lvl 17 at the latest.

Popular culture, cult classics, sports ball fever, completionist gaming ... these are the products of a future a person from perpetual-mideval-era land could barely conceive of.

OR

One could attempt to convert them to one's own religiosity. There are a few religions here that aren't there.

OR

Maybe our physical astronomy is different enough. Go boldly where no non-lvl-20 wizard has gone before and all that.

[Xar Zarath]

Also, how big of an ego does he have? Does he think he has what it takes to shake the very foundations of this world by teaching magic?

I would say for a 20th level Wizard to get where they are, his ego is big. Big enough that while he could probably blow our minds with magic, he doesn't want to and prefers to fritter his time away with holiday R&R stuff...like spa treatments and such...

[Bohandas]

Wizard: take 10 + maxed INT for a +12, Skill spells for a +29(Magecraft +5 Greater Heroism +4 Moment of Prescience +20 plus wieldskill for half a rank to count as trained*) +2 a M/w tool(A library)= 54.
vs

Shakespeare: An expert (we usually model master NPCs as level 5) take 10 + Maxed INT +4 + 8 ranks + 3 Skill Focus +2 for a M/w tool = 27

Uber Shakespeare: Expert 20: 10 + Maxed INT +6 + 23 ranks +3 Skill Focus +2 for a M/w tool = 44

*Alternatively, just take a rank.

Wouldn't he be a bard

[Crake]

Pop culture.

Tech is just another means to ends a lvl 20 fullcaster has had handled since lvl 17 at the latest.

Popular culture, cult classics, sports ball fever, completionist gaming ... these are the products of a future a person from perpetual-mideval-era land could barely conceive of.

That's fair, though it still results in the same appeal: You can't experience our culture if we destroy ourselves. The argument works either way.


OR

One could attempt to convert them to one's own religiosity. There are a few religions here that aren't there.

OR

Maybe our physical astronomy is different enough. Go boldly where no non-lvl-20 wizard has gone before and all that.

Well, the OP said he's come here to idle his time away, he's not here to research or convert.

[Bohandas]

Get him on the internet

[ben-zayb]

Get him on the internet
Tabstorm vs Fast-Time Plane, let's go!

[Xar Zarath]

...One could attempt to convert them to one's own religiosity. There are a few religions here that aren't there...

He would be interested in the religious places as tourist visiting but not get involved in religious affairs.