High Level Beast of Pure Chaos

[heavyfuel]

For a possible final battle I wanted to pit the PCs against a creature of pure chaos. A being that cares not about good or evil, and just wants disorder.

Despite CR being something somewhat illogical, especially at high levels, as a guideline a CR around 23 is ideal. If it could have an "end of the world" vibe to it all the better.

Unfortunately, the monster finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/) left me empty handed. A Titan just doesn't cut it for this scenario.

Thanks!


EDIT:

To give some idea of what I'm asking for, let's look at the Solar (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar)

- The power of a 20th level cleric, a class widely considered the strongest class in the game, then it also gets
- A dancing sword dealing damage for free every round
- 4 slaying arrows on a full attack (not very good against the PCs, but it makes for a hell of a cinematic of the angel slaying powerful creatures with a single arrow)
- At will DC 30 Imprisonment (I know it says DC 26, but any creature going against the Solar that has a chance of winning is famous enough that knowledge checks can tell it their names), a SoD that bypasses most immunities
- Constant True Seeing
- Mass charm monster
- Freaking Wish

Unfortunately it LG. Seems the alignment extremes got all the really strong monsters, while neutral has to contend with almost nothing.

[Zaq]

Maybe something related to the Leviathan, from Elder Evils? I forget what CR it gets up to, but the fluff is dead-on.

[heavyfuel]

Maybe something related to the Leviathan, from Elder Evils? I forget what CR it gets up to, but the fluff is dead-on.

Unfortunately a CR 16 bruiser with no spells/spell-like abilities will just get curb stomped by the party.

Its only spell-like is a 1/day Fort DC 24 to make the party suffer random chaotic effect, which might as well read "1/day waste a standard action"

[flappeercraft]

Hagunnemon from the ELH fits perfectly except due to having a CR 29. Although a competent level 20 party should be able to take it on. Due to being on the ELH its also on the SRD under Epic Monsters.

Edit: I love being a ninja

[Khedrac]

It's CR is 29, but I am sure you could tailor the fight to make it viable - what about a Hagunemnon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm)?

[heavyfuel]

It's CR is 29, but I am sure you could tailor the fight to make it viable - what about a Hagunemnon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm)?


Hagunnemon from the ELH fits perfectly except due to having a CR 29. Although a competent level 20 party should be able to take it on. Due to being on the ELH its also on the SRD under Epic Monsters.

Edit: I love being a ninja

It's a cool monster, but it suffers similar problems to the Leviathan (although on a smaller scale). It's still just a bruiser, although a much much resilient one. DC 22 Plane Shift and Suggestion just doesn't cut as a threat at this level of play.

Alter Shape helps by making it able to fly and stuff, but even then, at the end of the day, all it can really do is deal some HP damage

[zfs]

It's a cool monster, but it suffers similar problems to the Leviathan (although on a smaller scale). It's still just a bruiser, although a much much resilient one. DC 22 Plane Shift and Suggestion just doesn't cut as a threat at this level of play.

Alter Shape helps by making it able to fly and stuff, but even then, at the end of the day, all it can really do is deal some HP damage

Hagunemnon can take any 4 (Ex) abilities of shapes it mimics. They need not all be from one creature. That's a heck of a lot more than just "flying and stuff."

[heavyfuel]

I edited the OP:

To give some idea of what I'm asking for, let's look at the Solar (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar)

- The power of a 20th level cleric, a class widely considered the strongest class in the game, then it also gets
- A dancing sword dealing damage for free every round
- 4 slaying arrows on a full attack (not very good against the PCs, but it makes for a hell of a cinematic of the angel slaying powerful creatures with a single arrow)
- At will DC 30 Imprisonment (I know it says DC 26, but any creature going against the Solar that has a chance of winning is famous enough that knowledge checks can tell it their names), a SoD that bypasses most immunities
- Constant True Seeing
- Mass charm monster
- Freaking Wish

Unfortunately it LG. Seems the alignment extremes got all the really strong monsters, while neutral has to contend with almost nothing.


Hagunemnon can take any 4 (Ex) abilities of shapes it mimics. They need not all be from one creature. That's a heck of a lot more than just "flying and stuff."

Hmm, that's an interesting point. However, are there Ex abilities that actually make it a threat bigger than HP damage?
Consider the average Lv 18 party and the usual stuff they're straight up immune to.

[PunBlake]

Your description made me think of denizens of the Far Realm. This train of thought led me to look up the Dragon Magazine article, "Enter the Far Realm," from issue #330. If you have access, it may be worth a read.

Here are the stand-out suggestions from that article:
Neh-Thalggu, CR 26, ELH: A brain collector with spells as Sorc 13.
Odopi, CR 14+, MM3: A D-Dooring huge mass of tentacles and eyes that swallows everything whole.
Skybleeder, CR 12+, Fiend Folio: A huge flying mass of tentacles and eyes, shrouded in SR-causing mist that rains acid where it goes.

Templates:
Half-Farspawn, LoM
Pseudonatural, CArc
Voidmind, MM3

Things I saw while skimming that also fit the bill:
Gibbering Orb, CR 23, ELH
Paragon Mind Flayer, CR 23, ELH
White Slaad, CR 21 (often found in pairs), ELH

I would suggest skimming Lords of Madness for some aberrant ideas as well.

[Telonius]

If you're looking to build something that's less of a bruiser and more able to willfully bring about some kind of apocalypse, the Chaond race from MM2 (find it under "Planetouched") might be a place to look. It's LA+1. MM2 was published pretty early on, before they really standardized things for making playable characters. But if you do a bit of reverse-engineering, you'd get +4 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha. They're supposed to be Slaad-descended.

[flappeercraft]

Hmm, that's an interesting point. However, are there Ex abilities that actually make it a threat bigger than HP damage?
Consider the average Lv 18 party and the usual stuff they're straight up immune to.

Well yes. Consider Big T’s Regeneration, Gheden Dead Nerves, Colossus AMF and Pounce.

Now its completely immune to damage, can pounce and has a 100ft AMF around it negating most things from spellcasters unless they’re prepared for it.

[PunBlake]

If you're looking to build something that's less of a bruiser and more able to willfully bring about some kind of apocalypse, the Chaond race from MM2 (find it under "Planetouched") might be a place to look. It's LA+1. MM2 was published pretty early on, before they really standardized things for making playable characters. But if you do a bit of reverse-engineering, you'd get +4 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha. They're supposed to be Slaad-descended.

A similar playable race that wants to bring about the end is the Kaorti (Fiend Folio), who , as Farspawn, want to bring the Far Realm to the Material. They also advance with class levels and call out spellcasting as a favored tactic.

[Quertus]

Reading comprehension not being my strong suit, I have to ask - are you looking for an existing monster, or are you trying to create a cool homebrew threat? Or, possibly, reskinning an existing creature? Or... what? What are the available options? This will affect my response.

[zfs]

I edited the OP:

To give some idea of what I'm asking for, let's look at the Solar (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar)

- The power of a 20th level cleric, a class widely considered the strongest class in the game, then it also gets
- A dancing sword dealing damage for free every round
- 4 slaying arrows on a full attack (not very good against the PCs, but it makes for a hell of a cinematic of the angel slaying powerful creatures with a single arrow)
- At will DC 30 Imprisonment (I know it says DC 26, but any creature going against the Solar that has a chance of winning is famous enough that knowledge checks can tell it their names), a SoD that bypasses most immunities
- Constant True Seeing
- Mass charm monster
- Freaking Wish

Unfortunately it LG. Seems the alignment extremes got all the really strong monsters, while neutral has to contend with almost nothing.



Hmm, that's an interesting point. However, are there Ex abilities that actually make it a threat bigger than HP damage?
Consider the average Lv 18 party and the usual stuff they're straight up immune to.

There's certainly a lot more defensive gems in the arsenal of Ex abilities than offensive ones. As Anthrowhale points out in his ExFighter build that abuses this ability, you can take the Zodar's immunity to all but bludgeoning and the Ocean Giant's immunity to bludgeoning and just be immune to all weapon damage. Pick something with regen that's only broken by one or two things, pick up immunity to those things, add on something that's immune to any spell effects that would bypass needing to damage you and you can be nigh invulnerable. But that's a tad boring.

For offense, let's see....well, looking at the ELH, you could get the Phane's Null Time Field. I'm betting most of your party can make the DC 30 Will save pretty easily, but if you can pump that up you have a continuous effect that threatens to keep PC's in a temporal stasis. The Anaxim has a good breath weapon - still just HP damage, but it's 20d6 Sonic and right out of the box has a decent save DC of 29. It's Con based so you could pump the DC by stacking on the Shambling Mound's electricity immunity/Con buff and an Ex ability to do electric damage to yourself. The Umbral Blot's disintegrating touch is a DC 38 Fort to just be utterly destroyed as by a sphere of annihilation. It can use its Vortex ability to force a DC 38 Reflex save to be pulled into it and thus subject to disintegrating touch. If they're not immune to stunning, the Sirrush can force a DC 51 Fort save against 1d4 rounds of stun. The Ruin Swarm can nauseate if a PC fails a DC 45 Fort save - remember that Hagunemnon can be up to 200 ft across so you can probably catch every PC in the swarm. They're likely immune, but if not you can grab some very damaging high DC poisons.

And that's just a small selection from one book.

I played an Epic Druid who went pretty far into MoMF so if I look at my build notes I'm sure I had a decent list of good Ex abilities somewhere.

[zfs]

Also since it's a creature of pure chaos it might be fun to randomize its abilities - pick a bunch of good Ex abilities and roll for which ones you'll take each round. Or maybe pick two so you know you at least have some useful stuff and roll for the other two.

[heavyfuel]

Your description made me think of denizens of the Far Realm. This train of thought led me to look up the Dragon Magazine article, "Enter the Far Realm," from issue #330. If you have access, it may be worth a read.

Here are the stand-out suggestions from that article:
Neh-Thalggu, CR 26, ELH: A brain collector with spells as Sorc 13.
Odopi, CR 14+, MM3: A D-Dooring huge mass of tentacles and eyes that swallows everything whole.
Skybleeder, CR 12+, Fiend Folio: A huge flying mass of tentacles and eyes, shrouded in SR-causing mist that rains acid where it goes.

Templates:
Half-Farspawn, LoM
Pseudonatural, CArc
Voidmind, MM3

Things I saw while skimming that also fit the bill:
Gibbering Orb, CR 23, ELH
Paragon Mind Flayer, CR 23, ELH
White Slaad, CR 21 (often found in pairs), ELH

I would suggest skimming Lords of Madness for some aberrant ideas as well.

Nice article apparently. I'll take a proper look when I'm home

I like the White Slaads in particular


Well yes. Consider Big T’s Regeneration, Gheden Dead Nerves, Colossus AMF and Pounce.

Now its completely immune to damage, can pounce and has a 100ft AMF around it negating most things from spellcasters unless they’re prepared for it.

A (near?) unstoppable HP damage machine could work. Chipping away at whatever terrain it's on and killing creatures on sight. This does make the fight more of a puzzle than anything else though. A puzzle I'm afraid only the Wizard could solve, which takes out the fun for 2 out my 3 players.

Also, and I know I didn't mention this before, Gheden is Dragon Mag material, which is straight up banned in the game (for good reasons)


If you're looking to build something that's less of a bruiser and more able to willfully bring about some kind of apocalypse, the Chaond race from MM2 (find it under "Planetouched") might be a place to look. It's LA+1. MM2 was published pretty early on, before they really standardized things for making playable characters. But if you do a bit of reverse-engineering, you'd get +4 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha. They're supposed to be Slaad-descended.


A similar playable race that wants to bring about the end is the Kaorti (Fiend Folio), who , as Farspawn, want to bring the Far Realm to the Material. They also advance with class levels and call out spellcasting as a favored tactic.

Either could work. Just slap 20 levels of Tier 1 class on it have a field day.

I was hoping for something more monstrous, but this will have to do if I can't find anything else.

[OgresAreCute]

I edited the OP:

To give some idea of what I'm asking for, let's look at the Solar (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar)

- The power of a 20th level cleric, a class widely considered the strongest class in the game, then it also gets
- A dancing sword dealing damage for free every round
- 4 slaying arrows on a full attack (not very good against the PCs, but it makes for a hell of a cinematic of the angel slaying powerful creatures with a single arrow)
- At will DC 30 Imprisonment (I know it says DC 26, but any creature going against the Solar that has a chance of winning is famous enough that knowledge checks can tell it their names), a SoD that bypasses most immunities
- Constant True Seeing
- Mass charm monster
- Freaking Wish

Unfortunately it LG. Seems the alignment extremes got all the really strong monsters, while neutral has to contend with almost nothing.

Couldn't you just give it 80's rock band hair and change the alignment to chaotic neutral? Possibly change out some SLAs or domains to make it more chaotic themed (imprisonment strikes me as more lawful-oriented, I also imagine it has access to law and good domains instead of the chaos domain).

[heavyfuel]

Reading comprehension not being my strong suit, I have to ask - are you looking for an existing monster, or are you trying to create a cool homebrew threat? Or, possibly, reskinning an existing creature? Or... what? What are the available options? This will affect my response.

Preferably an existing monster if only to save time, though I'm willing to do some work by handpicking better feats and spells or applying templates.


Also since it's a creature of pure chaos it might be fun to randomize its abilities - pick a bunch of good Ex abilities and roll for which ones you'll take each round. Or maybe pick two so you know you at least have some useful stuff and roll for the other two.

Uhhhh, I like this now. Having changing abilities instead of having full on immunity. I'll probably need at least 25 to make it decently random


[snip snap]

I played an Epic Druid who went pretty far into MoMF so if I look at my build notes I'm sure I had a decent list of good Ex abilities somewhere.

Looks like a good selection to start. If you do find that list I'd be very interested in it.


Couldn't you just give it 80's rock band hair and change the alignment to chaotic neutral? Possibly change out some SLAs or domains to make it more chaotic themed (imprisonment strikes me as more lawful-oriented, I also imagine it has access to law and good domains instead of the chaos domain).

I could. I prefer to do things by RAW if I can though.

[zfs]

Uhhhh, I like this now. Having changing abilities instead of having full on immunity. I'll probably need at least 25 to



I like it because it gives a logical Watsonian argument for why the party can surmount an epic challenge that would usually be above their paygrade - the Hagnemnon could just be practically invincible at all times and stomp them, but it's such a being of raw chaos that it refuses to conform to one set of abilities.

[Nifft]

I see the Phane has been mentioned as a source of abilities, but why not just use the whole Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane)?

It's a thing from outside time which might want to destroy the world, so it's got an


"end of the world" vibe to it


You can penetrate their DR by hitting them with a weapon forged in a future timeline.

One of them is (allegedly) CR 25.

[heavyfuel]

I like it because it gives a logical Watsonian argument for why the party can surmount an epic challenge that would usually be above their paygrade - the Hagnemnon could just be practically invincible at all times and stomp them, but it's such a being of raw chaos that it refuses to conform to one set of abilities.

Your quote just showed me that I basically quit writing mid sentence *facepalm*

[zfs]

Your quote just showed me that I basically quit writing mid sentence *facepalm*

Fits the topic. Finishing sentences and always using punctuation is just so darn Lawful.

[zfs]

I see the Phane has been mentioned as a source of abilities, but why not just use the whole Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane)?

It's a thing from outside time which might want to destroy the world, so it's got an


You can penetrate their DR by hitting them with a weapon forged in a future timeline.

One of them is (allegedly) CR 25.

Phanes are very fun though using them can be a bit of a headache. Combining Time Stop, Time Duplicate, Safe Time, Summon Past Time Duplicate and potentially even Time Regression (though that takes up a standard action each round for 4 turns) starts getting really wonky.

[Quertus]

Given the criteria, I was going to suggest Advanced HD Chaos Beast, with the equivalent of Angry's "two snakes" template applied to it. Yes, it's one creature, and, yes, it has 2d8 bodies each round, because Chaos.

[OgresAreCute]

Given the criteria, I was going to suggest Advanced HD Chaos Beast, with the equivalent of Angry's "two snakes" template applied to it. Yes, it's one creature, and, yes, it has 2d8 bodies each round, because Chaos.

Advancing the chaos beast to the maximum 24 HD gives you a CR 7 + (16/4) + 1 = CR 12. If you ignore the guidelines for maximum HD in the stat block it will end up at a whopping 68 HD if it doesn't get more size increases by the time it is CR 23.

[Quertus]

Advancing the chaos beast to the maximum 24 HD gives you a CR 7 + (16/4) + 1 = CR 12. If you ignore the guidelines for maximum HD in the stat block it will end up at a whopping 68 HD if it doesn't get more size increases by the time it is CR 23.

Thus the application of the silly "multiple" template that Angry created - but, in this case, have it actually mean that the one creature has multiple bodies, not just that there are multiple of them.

By my math, it would need 48 bodies to be CR/EL 23.

[OgresAreCute]

Thus the application of the silly "multiple" template that Angry created - but, in this case, have it actually mean that the one creature has multiple bodies, not just that there are multiple of them.

By my math, it would need 48 bodies to be CR/EL 23.

Yeah you just made me think of "hmm, what if I added a metric ton of HD to this..." (quote from monster manual writers). Adding a bunch of HD gets pretty silly sometimes, it's very worthwhile for beatsticks apparently (a CR 3 Ogre advanced with 28 giant HD to CR 10 is much stronger than a CR 10 fire giant by virtue of having much higher BAB and HP).

[Alabenson]

Why not just slap the pseudonatural template on a great wyrm white dragon? That should get you a CR 23 horrible abomination from another realm with a wide arsenal of combat options, particularly if you play it intelligently and abuse the options in the Draconomicon.

[ShurikVch]

Topaz Dragons are CN by default; Great Wyrm got CL 19 and Shapechange 3/day; CR 25; slap on the Chaotic Archdragon template (Dragon #321)
If 25 is a bit high, Wyrm is CL 17 and CR 23 (no Shapechange)

[Psyren]

For a possible final battle I wanted to pit the PCs against a creature of pure chaos. A being that cares not about good or evil, and just wants disorder.


Unfortunately it LG. Seems the alignment extremes got all the really strong monsters, while neutral has to contend with almost nothing.

Here's the problem with your premise though - that creature as you described it, is CE. A creature that actively wants to wreak large-scale havoc on innocent people's lives and makes a conscious decision to do so, does not have any respect for said innocent life.

The only real way to make such a creature CN would be for it to cause such disorder passively, and basically be mindless or heedless. The instant it has volition, then it is hurting people intentionally and without care.

[heavyfuel]

Fits the topic. Finishing sentences and always using punctuation is just so darn Lawful.

I suppose there's not gonna be a topic as well suited as this for such a mistake hahahaha


Topaz Dragons are CN by default; Great Wyrm got CL 19 and Shapechange 3/day; CR 25; slap on the Chaotic Archdragon template (Dragon #321)
If 25 is a bit high, Wyrm is CL 17 and CR 23 (no Shapechange)

Could be, though I already have a dragon planned as one other possible final boss, so I wanted something different.


Why not just slap the pseudonatural template on a great wyrm white dragon? That should get you a CR 23 horrible abomination from another realm with a wide arsenal of combat options, particularly if you play it intelligently and abuse the options in the Draconomicon.

Cuz it's still a CE creature. Also, I already have a dragon planned as one other possible final boss, so I wanted something different.


Here's the problem with your premise though - that creature as you described it, is CE. A creature that actively wants to wreak large-scale havoc on innocent people's lives and makes a conscious decision to do so, does not have any respect for said innocent life.

The only real way to make such a creature CN would be for it to cause such disorder passively, and basically be mindless or heedless. The instant it has volition, then it is hurting people intentionally and without care.

That's definitely one point of view. Another is that its intentions are 100% chaotic. It doesn't cause evil for evil's sake, it causes as a means to cause more chaos. A being that is willing to do anything to cause chaos (including doing good actions) is CN.

Slaadi, the embodiment of Chaos, seem to work on a basis of stronger slaadi bullying weaker ones. A very powerful CN creature could just want to bully everyone.

But really, we should probably leave the alignment discussion for another day. It's a crappy system and we know it, and if we don't put the discussion on hold we'll never get this creature done.

[ShurikVch]

Got one: Dungeon #99 have monster which is literally called Minion of Chaos; it's CR 20 CN Gargantuan Outsider with 35 HD,
Frightful Presence,
Improved Grab,
Paralysis Rays (100' range, +33 touch attack, Fort DC 34 or paralysis for 2d8+4 minutes, may shoot 1d4 rays per round),
bunch of at-will SLA (such as Chaos Hammer, Deeper Darkness, Insanity, and Unholy Blight)
and some more 1/day (such as Cloudkill and Horrid Wilting),
Energy Drain (on tentacle attack - Fort DC 34 or gain 1d2 negative levels; it have 14 tentacles),
Alien Mind (Wis damage to those who would try to affect it's mind),
Swallow Whole,
SR 35,
and Regeneration 30 (penetrated by Holy, Lawful, or Unholy weapon)

[Nifft]

Phanes are very fun though using them can be a bit of a headache. Combining Time Stop, Time Duplicate, Safe Time, Summon Past Time Duplicate and potentially even Time Regression (though that takes up a standard action each round for 4 turns) starts getting really wonky.

Sure, but any high-CR antagonist is going to be complex.

Phane has a small bag of interesting tricks -- *very* small relative to shapechange and the like.

[LordKarnox]

What about big T? I don't usally play 3.5e and I came arcoss this and thought Big T should be just fine

[heavyfuel]

Got one: Dungeon #99 have monster which is literally called Minion of Chaos; it's CR 20 CN Gargantuan Outsider with 35 HD,
Frightful Presence,
Improved Grab,
Paralysis Rays (100' range, +33 touch attack, Fort DC 34 or paralysis for 2d8+4 minutes, may shoot 1d4 rays per round),
bunch of at-will SLA (such as Chaos Hammer, Deeper Darkness, Insanity, and Unholy Blight)
and some more 1/day (such as Cloudkill and Horrid Wilting),
Energy Drain (on tentacle attack - Fort DC 34 or gain 1d2 negative levels; it have 14 tentacles),
Alien Mind (Wis damage to those who would try to affect it's mind),
Swallow Whole,
SR 35,
and Regeneration 30 (penetrated by Holy, Lawful, or Unholy weapon)

Took a look at it. The only thing other than HP damage it can do to the party is sicken them with Unholy Blight. It's gonna be a pass, unfortunately, but I do like some of the pre-encounter ideas like the fleeing peasants and the thunderous noises in the distance.


What about big T? I don't usally play 3.5e and I came arcoss this and thought Big T should be just fine

I give Big T about 3 rounds before failing spectacularly at destroying anything.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The teratomorph (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Teratomorph) from MM2 is one of my favorite "chaos incarnate" monsters. You could use an Awakened Paragon Teratomorph as your final boss (and as a bonus it avoids the "Is it really CN?" question, since it's mindless), or perhaps combine the hagunemnon random-monster-abilities boss with a regular teratormorph via a permanent fusion or the like.

[Thurbane]

Not sure which of the following may have already been mentioned:


Black Slaad CR 25
Chaos Roc CR 22
Crystal Dragon CR 21 - 24
Ectoplasmic Dragon CR 21-25
Fang Dragon CR 21
Master of the Hunt CR 22
Mu Spore CR 21
Neh-Thalggu CR 26
Sand Dragon CR 21-24
Sirrush CR 24
Topaz Dragon CR 20 - 26
White Slaad CR 21
Zeitgeist CR 23

[Bronk]

For a possible final battle I wanted to pit the PCs against a creature of pure chaos. A being that cares not about good or evil, and just wants disorder.

Despite CR being something somewhat illogical, especially at high levels, as a guideline a CR around 23 is ideal. If it could have an "end of the world" vibe to it all the better.

Unfortunately, the monster finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/) left me empty handed. A Titan just doesn't cut it for this scenario.

Thanks!


EDIT:

To give some idea of what I'm asking for, let's look at the Solar (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar)

- The power of a 20th level cleric, a class widely considered the strongest class in the game, then it also gets
- A dancing sword dealing damage for free every round
- 4 slaying arrows on a full attack (not very good against the PCs, but it makes for a hell of a cinematic of the angel slaying powerful creatures with a single arrow)
- At will DC 30 Imprisonment (I know it says DC 26, but any creature going against the Solar that has a chance of winning is famous enough that knowledge checks can tell it their names), a SoD that bypasses most immunities
- Constant True Seeing
- Mass charm monster
- Freaking Wish

Unfortunately it LG. Seems the alignment extremes got all the really strong monsters, while neutral has to contend with almost nothing.

I think neutral monsters don't seem terribly threatening most of the time... you just don't poke the bear, and you're good to go. Generally, if there's a chaotic being that wants to destroy the universe, it's also evil. I guess for true neutral, there's a few monsters, a few dragons, and the rilmani? (The rilmani seem bad, not super unlike the yugoloths, but then you realize that they're just wee versions of Ao. Versions with little support...)

My suggestion is to either use an Infernal from the ELH and just change it's backstory, or do the same with Malkizid from Champions of Ruin and say he's a fallen ashura.

[Goaty14]

Adding a CR +3 template onto the Garngrath (MM V) might do the trick. IMO, the Garngrath is everything Big T wanted to be, and a lil more.

[Thurbane]

Adding a CR +3 template onto the Garngrath (MM V) might do the trick. IMO, the Garngrath is everything Big T wanted to be, and a lil more.

Half-Farspawn? That would give it some nice SLAs...

[J-H]

Does it need to be a beast, or can it have class levels? I recently statted out a Psion Lich Ulitharid for someone. ML 24, Timeless Body, some buffs, and about 5-6 rounds of "3 actions per round" Nova-ing. Decerebrate is nice.

I would also consider some advanced slaads (death/grey/etc.).

Possibly downgrade one of these a bit:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm

[the_david]

For a possible final battle I wanted to pit the PCs against a creature of pure chaos. A being that cares not about good or evil, and just wants disorder.Dungeons & Dragons & Philosophy has some points on what chaos is, and comes up with some other definitions. (Entropy/the end of all things.) Let's focus on disorder for now. Green Ronin published the Advanced Bestiary and in a free to download web enhancement they published the Chaosborne template. (http://freeronin.com/gr_files/ab_web2.pdf) I think it does what you want. It's a little work, but you can slap it onto a CR 22 monster of your choice and you're done.

[NichG]

I went a bit overboard. Season to taste. May need to drop Improved Toughness or epic equivalents on things depending on the party's damage output. Also, some of these things are probably very hard to counter or deal with if the party isn't high-versatility, so you may want to remove or modify those aspects.



Typhon is an entity which personifies the set of possibilities which, by existing, would necessarily contradict each-other. As such, any universe in which Typhon continues to exist gradually suffers a degradation of the very concept of causality, spreading outwards in contagious fashion from places where Typhon has been perceived or interacted with. Typhon separated out from reality during the initial formation of the multiverse as a byproduct of the underlying mechanisms introduced to produce the concept of an immortal soul. Due to the wide variety of possible ways in which things could die or come to an end, a fundamental principle that 'for anything which once existed, there exists also a way that it may once again come to be'. However, this ended up guaranteeing that any shaping of the cosmos done to render it livable or stable must also, at its core, have a way by which it can come undone. Typhon is that way, and while it has no inherent desire to destroy the universe or unravel existence, it also doesn't care if it would happen to do so. Rather, ultimately, Typhon is drawn to situations which pose the possibility of paradox, the potential for which acts as a beacon that draws it nearer to reality.

True Immortal: Typhon's existence is mandated by cosmic law, and as such cannot be ended without repealing or modifying those fundamental mechanisms of reality. However, Typhon also cannot exist fully and bodily within reality as it chooses. Instead, it's 'body' at any given time consists of one or more projected avatars, which can be destroyed, driven away, or even potentially bound. Typhon can distribute its resources over many avatars, or concentrate them into a single avatar, with mechanics to follow. After an avatar has been destroyed, Typhon must wait for a period of one hour before re-manifesting it, and can only re-manifest it near an appropriate weakness in reality (e.g. a paradox, potential paradox, or other active avatar).

Generally Typhon places the majority of its resources in an avatar which acts to defend the core paradox site, a secondary portion in an avatar which is hidden somewhere out in the world to enable it to recover if defeated, and a third portion which is it's active agent in the world. When under significant threat, the agent can be quickly manifested near the core site to help defend the core. These three avatars will be statted individually, but each inherits Typhon's innate properties.

Soul-binding an avatar prevents Typhon from remanifesting that portion of its power. The binding has a risk of spreading Typhon's contagion if interacted with, but is effectively inert so long as it remains in isolation.

Typhon's Contagion: Beings interacting with Typhon extensively accumulate significant distortions of causality, which are themselves contagious. Any character hit by an attack from Typhon or failing a save against one of Typhon's effects gains a point of Contagion. Characters spending a long amount of time in the presence of an avatar (for example, rooming at the same inn as one) gain a point of Contagion per day. Contagion decreases at a rate of 1 point per day normally so long as a character remains away from Typhon or other carriers, but proximity to a source prevents this recovery. Characters who have accumulated Contagion can spread it to others in the same fashion as Typhon, but only up to their own level.

For every point of Contagion that a character possesses, they suffer a -1 to saves and AC. However, for every 2 points of Contagion they possess their own saving throw DCs and attack rolls are increased by +1. These effects correspond to a decoupling between the causal relationships of the form 'I dodged, therefore I was not hit' and things of that nature. Basically, blows which the character thought they were safe from land anyways, whereas blows they deliver to others end up connecting despite the defenses of the other. At 9 points of Contagion, a character gains the additional ability to partially bypass immunities, instead dealing half effect in the case of damage or provoking a save with a +20 bonus in the case of direct effects, but at the same time loses any immunities of their own. A character's Contagion cannot exceed 9 without them and their entire timeline fully de-syncing from reality - the 10th point of Contagion essentially renders them into a passive observer who can no longer influence events unless Typhon itself binds them as an avatar (which is more or less the only way such a character could be recovered).

Typhon itself can choose the level of Contagion that it's avatars possess each round, up to a maximum of 10 - in essence, this is the extent to which it is pushing itself fully into reality or drawing back.

Areas tainted with Contagion have a tendency to suffer from nonsensical or rearranged chains of events. For example, someone who was considering murder ends up being seen committing it, while also simultaneously is seen at a town festival by hundreds of witnesses, and they themselves remember both timelines. Someone finds that for the last 10 years, they had a daughter who they were living with that they didn't remember until just this day, and the daughter herself remembers an alternate history which becomes more true the more people she tells about it, etc.

Contagion can be detected in Arcane Sight or other types of supernatural vision as distortions, anomalous colors, or visual hallucinations.

Twisted Reflection: Typhon's main defense ability is that once per round any status condition or effect directly applied to it may be reflected, retroactively and without a save, to a single target of it's choice as far back in time as the beginning of the current round. In essence this means that a single save-or-die targetting Typhon can be undone by having it kill the original caster before they could apply it. On the other hand, two casters both landing a successful save-or-die would kill an avatar at the cost of one of them dying. Generally speaking, the Herald of Typhon will reflect the first status effect applied to it in a given round if there is any advantage of doing so, whereas the Guardian of the Breach and the Hidden One will only reflect effects that would directly kill or disable them.

Twisted Reflection's use is shared between all three of it's avatars, however, and so it may be possible to use the Herald's tendency to reflect all effects to land a Soul Trap on the Guardian, or similar tricks. Additionally, an Avatar that is otherwise disabled cannot make use of this ability.

Outside of Time: Typhon's avatars can share or co-opt any Time Stop cast in their presence (1000ft) - they can make the spell fail, steal the effect entirely, or attack the caster one-on-one for the duration of the effect at their choice.

Outside of Space: Typhon's avatars can share or co-opt any Teleportation or Plane Shift effect used in their presence (1000ft) - they can go along with, change the destination, negate the effect, or re-target it to someone they are touching when the effect is used.

Hidden Within Knowledge: Divination effects applied to Typhon or it's avatars function correctly, but inflict a point of Contagion on the caster. Multi-round continuous effects do so each round, separately for each effect. In the case of divine casters with a deity who grants them spells, the deity also suffers a point of Contagion if this happens if the divination corresponds to a 4th level spell or higher.

Sidestep: Once per round, each Avatar of Typhon can perform an immediate action teleport of up to 20ft. This does not interrupt actions which leave the Avatar within their range.

Foresight: Typhon's avatars are always under the effect of the Foresight spell. They also possess Lifesight and a constant Arcane Sight effect, both with ranges of 60ft.

Mobility: Typhon's avatars are projections into reality, and as such their position in space is at Typhon's choice rather than obeying the usual laws of motion. The consequence of this is that they can hover in place, are effectively immune to bull rush and the like (unless their Contagion is set high enough in a given round to lose that immunity), and move either with a 60ft Fly speed (Perfect) or at Typhon's option via something that appears as teleportation but which can't carry any physical objects with them (essentially lifting its 'fingers' and placing them back down at a slightly offset position).

Sensory Connection: Since all of Typhon's Avatars are direct extensions of the same entity, they share senses, thoughts, and knowledge completely. However, this also has the consequence that negative sensory effects are shared between the Avatars - blinding one blinds all of them.




This is Typhon's active agent in the world.

16HD Outsider
Str: 18
Dex: 32
Con: 20
Int: 18
Wis: 14
Cha: 26

(Ability save DCs are based on Cha + Contagion effects.)

Feats: Ability Focus (Corrupt Origin), Ability Focus (Corrupt Item), Weapon Focus (Touch Attack), Flyby Attack (Spring attack for flyers, can attack while moving), Iron Will, Improved Toughness

Abilities:

- Greater Planeshift (at will), Greater Teleport (at will), Empowered Disintegrate (at will), Prismatic Spray (at will), Greater Bestow Curse (at will), Polymorph Any Object (at will), Greater Dispel Magic (at will), Quickened Heal (3/day), Disjunction (1/day)
- Lifesight 60ft, always-on Arcane Sight, always-on Foresight

- Scramble: The Herald's touch scrambles nearby matter, dealing 3d6+17 force damage and 1d4 Con damage on contact. This can be used as part of a full attack. Characters grappling the Herald suffer this each round automatically, without requiring an action on the Herald's part.

- Corrupt Origin: Save DC 17+2+Cha mod, range 150ft. Swift action. The Herald causes a target character to suffer an exchange between their highest attribute and their lowest attribute for 1 minute/HD.

- Corrupt Item: Save DC 17+2+Cha mod, range 150ft. Swift action. The Herald warps a magic item, replacing it's abilities with the effects of a cursed item of its choice for 1 minute/HD.




This is Typhon's ace in the hole, used to maintain a foothold on the world if the paradox or other avatars are attacked. The Hidden One almost invariably tries to flee conflict rather than fight. Note that even if it goes fully invisible with Superior Invisibility, it cannot suppress the effects imposed on the world by it's Contagion, so may be tracked indirectly.

9HD Outsider
Str: 12
Dex: 24
Con: 14
Int: 24
Wis: 12
Cha: 20

(Ability save DCs are based on Cha + Contagion effects.)

Feats: Live my Nightmare (Phantasmal killer effects any who attempt to use divinations on it)
Abilities: Greater Planeshift (at will), Greater Teleport (at will), Superior Invisibility (at will), Dominate Monster (at will), Etherealness (at will)

- Scramble: The Hidden One's touch scrambles nearby matter, dealing 3d6+10 force damage and 1d4 Con damage on contact. This can be used as part of a full attack. Characters grappling the Hidden One suffer this each round automatically, without requiring an action on the Herald's part.

- Corrupt Memories: Attempting to remember details about the Hidden One (where one saw it, what it looked like, etc) causes a progressive degradation of a person's mind, until the memories are either voluntarily released or their mind crumbles and the memories are forcibly lost. This applies 1 point of Int and Wis drain per round that a character tries to remember the Hidden One while not in its presence.

- Army of Shadows: If its' back is against a wall, the Hidden One summons a horde of corrupted souls to distract its' pursuers. This ability can be used 1/day, and summons 30 Shadows and 30 Allips each bearing 10 points of Contagion.




This is Typhon's heavy hitter and essentially it's bodyguard. Probably the final encounter starts with the Guardian, who then summons the Herald into the fight on the second round.

23HD Outsider
Str: 44
Dex: 22
Con: 34
Int: 18
Wis: 18
Cha: 32

Abilities:

- Erosion of Reality: 1000ft aura. Each round, the Guardian may choose one ability or thing to be excluded from reality within it's aura. These are additive (so each round adds additional exclusions). The choice of thing must be highly specific - it cannot remove 'physical attacks', but it could remove 'melee attacks with longswords'. It cannot remove 'magic' or 'wizard spells' but could remove '5th level transmutation spells' or '8th level divine spells'. It cannot remove 'magical items', but could remove 'stat-boosting amulets'. Does not inflict Contagion.

- Immanentize the Eschaton: Standard action. The Guardian selects a 30ft radius ball of space and portions it off into its own universe. Characters within 5ft of the edge or characters with Evasion or better may make a Reflex save to dodge out of the area (DC 19+2+Cha mod+Contagion). One round later, the portioned-off space collapses, utterly destroying anything that is still contained within it at that time. Leaving the space from within it requires Planeshift or an equivalent ability, Teleport is insufficient. Does not inflict Contagion.

- Realmquake: Standard action. Reality shivers apart within 200ft of the Guardian, dealing 23d6 force damage to anything caught in the blast (DC 19+2+Cha mod+Contagion Fortitude save halves and negates Contagion). This effect is always centered on the Guardian, but the Guardian is safe against its own ability here.

- Inversion: Standard action, 300ft range. A single positive effect which has been applied to a single target within the last round is reversed - healing becomes damage, buffs become penalties, etc. No save. If the inverse is ambiguous, the effect is simply negated. Inflicts Contagion.

- Typhon's Grasp: Full-round action. The Guardian makes a series of 6 Strength-based attack rolls (at -0/-0/-5/-10/-15/-20) against targets of its' choice within 1000ft. Hits deal 3d6+25 force damage and provoke a Fortitude save (DC 15+Str mod+Contagion) to avoid being knocked prone.

- Layering Infinity: Swift action. The Guardian superimposes upon itself a multitude of alternate possible timelines, borrowing one property from the following list as it chooses. This lasts until it uses Layering Infinity again, which replaces the benefit.
-- +10 to a stat of it's choice
-- Full heal; this is actually an alternate hitpoint pool that should be tracked, such that any damage suffered during that time 'goes with' this ability. Generally this is the one the Guardian will have up at the start of the fight.
-- Fast Healing 50
-- DR 25/-
-- Immunity to an element of it's choice
-- +10 to a single roll
-- +1 swift action per round

- Dispersion: Swift action. This ability lasts 1 round and may be used at most every other round. It causes 25% of the damage suffered by the Guardian from any source to reflect to everyone else within 60ft. Inflicts Contagion - dangerous!

- Bridge to the Infinite: Swift action. Generally this is the opening move. The guardian summons 10 Chaos Beasts to the field.


Design notes: I wanted to avoid giving out immunities or even significant damage negation/avoidance, but I needed to make mechanics which incentivize being careful about relying on one-shotting the avatars. As such, the focus is on reactive defenses that 'share the love' rather than things that just directly no-sell abilities. You may also want to expand on the sensory abilities - an extreme one would be the ability to follow the timeline of any being who could have slain an Avatar in any alternate possible reality, with the accuracy of that follow degrading with the unlikelihood of them pulling that off. So it can't see through your Superior Invisibility, but it can see where the alternate version of you that does manage to kill it would have been standing right now, kind of thing.

[Zaq]

The teratomorph from MM2 is one of my favorite "chaos incarnate" monsters. You could use an Awakened Paragon Teratomorph as your final boss (and as a bonus it avoids the "Is it really CN?" question, since it's mindless), or perhaps combine the hagunemnon random-monster-abilities boss with a regular teratormorph via a permanent fusion or the like.

Uuuuugh, **** teratomorphs. One of those things derailed our campaign for about a real-world year with its insane plane shift aura.

This is, I admit, a good suggestion nonetheless given the circumstances of the question. But still. I bear a grudge that I believe to be well-deserved.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Uuuuugh, **** teratomorphs. One of those things derailed our campaign for about a real-world year with its insane plane shift aura.

This is, I admit, a good suggestion nonetheless given the circumstances of the question. But still. I bear a grudge that I believe to be well-deserved.

If a monster doesn't frustrate you for several sessions after it's killed, can it really be said to be an incarnation of chaos? :smallamused:

[heavyfuel]

The teratomorph (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Teratomorph) from MM2 is one of my favorite "chaos incarnate" monsters. You could use an Awakened Paragon Teratomorph as your final boss (and as a bonus it avoids the "Is it really CN?" question, since it's mindless), or perhaps combine the hagunemnon random-monster-abilities boss with a regular teratormorph via a permanent fusion or the like.

Uuuuugh, **** teratomorphs. One of those things derailed our campaign for about a real-world year with its insane plane shift aura.

This is, I admit, a good suggestion nonetheless given the circumstances of the question. But still. I bear a grudge that I believe to be well-deserved.

If a monster doesn't frustrate you for several sessions after it's killed, can it really be said to be an incarnation of chaos? :smallamused:

Hmmm, they're technically TN since they're mindless, although they do have many chaotic elements to them. I like it.

I'm still on the fence about somethings.

Like Warp Reality's 10% chance of proc. That's only gonna happen like, maybe once during combat. Would you say that raising it to a 50% or even 100% chance would dramatically increase the CR? I think no more than +2 CR for this.

It's also somewhat on the fragile side of things. Sure, it has 300 Hp. But it has AC 3, no DR, and crappy saves. Dimensional Instability somewhat helps with this, but I don't think it's enough. Adding the Paragon template does make it more resilient, though it might be to the point that it becomes a slug fight that lasts for real life hours.

Related to the last one, it's really easy to nuke this thing from orbit. With no vision except Blindsight 240ft, it's super easy to pluck at it with a long bow until it dies.

As a last question concern, is Portalwake really gamebreaking? Zaq said it derailed his campaign for a year, but a DC 19 Reflex save is only going to be a problem if someone rolls a nat 1, I think. The Wizard will probably be farther away then 120ft.


Not sure which of the following may have already been mentioned:


Neh-Thalggu CR 26


Where can find the Neh-Thalggu?


Adding a CR +3 template onto the Garngrath (MM V) might do the trick. IMO, the Garngrath is everything Big T wanted to be, and a lil more.

Half-Farspawn? That would give it some nice SLAs...

It does face the same problem as Big T, namely it's inability to do squat vs flying opponents, which are the norm at such high CR. A 60ft cone doesn't cut it without a fly speed.

Also I think the fluff doesn't really fit here.


Dungeons & Dragons & Philosophy has some points on what chaos is, and comes up with some other definitions. (Entropy/the end of all things.) Let's focus on disorder for now. Green Ronin published the Advanced Bestiary and in a free to download web enhancement they published the Chaosborne template. (http://freeronin.com/gr_files/ab_web2.pdf) I think it does what you want. It's a little work, but you can slap it onto a CR 22 monster of your choice and you're done.

I don't think slapping a "hey it's chaotic now" template to a creature is something I want to do.

But wow, Aura of Anarchy is fun ability! Too bad it's basically melee only


Snip

Did you create these now?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hmmm, they're technically TN since they're mindless, although they do have many chaotic elements to them. I like it.

Note that I suggested using an Awakened version (awaken ooze from Dragon #304 is awaken, but for oozes). Mental scores of 3d6 each (or Maximize and Empower it for 18+3d6/2 mental scores, if you're feeling mean) means it can have a CN alignment, in addition to skills and feats.


I'm still on the fence about somethings.

Like Warp Reality's 10% chance of proc. That's only gonna happen like, maybe once during combat. Would you say that raising it to a 50% or even 100% chance would dramatically increase the CR? I think no more than +2 CR for this.

It's also somewhat on the fragile side of things. Sure, it has 300 Hp. But it has AC 3, no DR, and crappy saves. Dimensional Instability somewhat helps with this, but I don't think it's enough. Adding the Paragon template does make it more resilient, though it might be to the point that it becomes a slug fight that lasts for real life hours.

Related to the last one, it's really easy to nuke this thing from orbit. With no vision except Blindsight 240ft, it's super easy to pluck at it with a long bow until it dies.

Paragon gives it a final AC of 30, great saves, some DR and resistances plus fast healing to negate most longbow plinking (and don't forget the 20% miss chance from Dimensional Instability), and ups its fly speed to 150 feet. Combine that with the intelligence from being awakened, and the teratomorph goes from "amusing mobile terrain feature" to "nightmare-inducing flying blob of death." I think that checks the "end of the world vibe" box, don't you? :smallamused:

On paper, that ends up with a CR of 31, but MM2 is notorious for badly-estimated CR and I'd say that it would fall roughly in the low 20s CR range you're aiming for. If you're concerned about sky-high stats, you can always drop a bunch of HD or apply a "half paragon" template with half the numerical bonuses.


As a last question concern, is Portalwake really gamebreaking? Zaq said it derailed his campaign for a year, but a DC 19 Reflex save is only going to be a problem if someone rolls a nat 1, I think. The Wizard will probably be farther away then 120ft.

Portalwake can be a game-breaker if you face a vanilla teratomorph as a boss monster, since CR 16 means a 12th-level party means limited access to cross-planar divination and travel magic. If your party is high enough level for a CR 23 final boss, though, they should have access to scrying+gate or other means to quickly gather a party scattered by portalwake (whose DC would be 26 after Paragon plus any Ability Focus feats you want to give it, by the way, so hopefully out of "just don't roll a 1" territory).


Where can find the Neh-Thalggu?

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm).

[TiaC]

You can always use non-associated class levels. Anything with at least 19 HD and no innate sorcerer casting can be made an 18th-level sorcerer for +9 CR. For example, an Advanced (19HD) Mageripper Swarm that's an 18th-level sorcerer is only CR 17.25.

[NichG]

Did you create these now?

Yes, though the concept for Typhon is from something I did in another campaign, but the stats from that campaign would almost certainly not be appropriate for most games. You have to really make sure your players are okay with things that reroll their feat choices into Blessed of Tem-et Nu, at which point they are spontaneously bitten by interdimensional hippos for breaking the faith and permanently lose the feat slot.

[ShurikVch]

Shudde M'ell (https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Shudde_M%27ell), in it's official 3E conversion (by the WotC), labeled as CR 21 and have CN alignment, 27 HD, able to use SLA of Blasphemy and spells from Earth domain at-will