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View Full Version : DM Help Feedback on new custom Sorcerous Origin: both Balance & Theme



giblfiz
2018-11-02, 01:44 AM
Sorcerous Origin: Favored of the Ancestors


Ancestral Champion:
Your innate magic comes from the attention and aid of many of your deceased ancestors. Perhaps you are the last of your line, the rightful king, or simply belong to clan who's ancestral spirits are very active. The attention of the ancestors depends both on blood and on circumstance, so it is as likely as not that your parents were not ancestral champions themselves.

Lessons of the elders:

Since your birth your ancestors have taught and trained you in your dreams, preparing you for a life of heroics. You gain proficiency in light and medium armor, with shields, and with simple and martial weapons.

Whispers of the Ancestors:

At level 6 the ghosts of your forefathers will speak openly with you, and share their accumulated wisdom. You gain advantage on all history skill checks. Additionally you gain the spells Detect Magic, Identify, and Augury. These spells do not count against your known spell total, cannot be swapped out, and can be cast without material components.

Wrath of the Ancestors:

At 14th level, your ancestors will manifest to protect and aid you in combat. You can call on them as a bonus action on your turn, and they will remain until you dismiss them as a bonus action on your turn.
They produce an effect similar to the "Spirit Guardians" but your guardians have the spectral form of your ancestors. This effect does not require concentration.

Aid of the Ancestors:

Beginning at 18th level, The spirits of your forebears will channel magic for you even when you are unable to yourself. They are invested in your success and willing to intervene directly on your behalf.
In effect you may cast any spell you know and would be normally be able to regardless of status effects. This spell must select you as the target. Additionally if you are dead, and you have the components required on your person, you may cast Revivify, or Raise Dead.


My primary concerns regarding balance, and justifications regarding them are:
1) medium armor and a shield for level 1 will give this caster class one of the strongest AC's of the pure casters. This does however seem *about* the same as 1hp per level plus natural AC +3, and feels thematically about right.

2) There are warnings against giving sorcerers extra spells, but honestly I don't feel like the grab bag of non-combat utility spells is going to throw things off too much. This feels a lot weaker than existing lv6 origin abilities

3) Spirit Guardians and Fly are both 3rd level spells, subing one for the other as an origin ability feels fair. I would say fly is generally more useful, particularly for a squishy caster.

4) Aid of the Ancestors feels like the thing that is most likely to have unforeseen abuse potential on this list. I also really like it thematically and feel like most of the other origin lv 18s are pretty disappointing.

5) I feel like getting the equivalent of "unseen servant" in here somewhere might be thematically appropriate


I would really appriciate thoughts and feedback

Trustypeaches
2018-11-02, 08:00 AM
Spirit Guardians is an extremely strong spell, and even at level 14 is super strong as an at-will effect.

With this feature, you gain access to a permanent 15ft aura of guaranteed damage and difficult terrain against an unlimited number of targets with no concentration and a cheap action cost.

This is massively strong compared to other similar class features, such as the Storm Herald Barbarian’s aura features (5 fire damage to ALL creatures within 10 feet, or deal 3d6 damage to a SINGLE target, both of which cost a bonus action).

You should at least specify that the effect is similar to a 3rd Level Spirit Guardians, and even then that’s a 3d8 damage die. I would HEAVILY nerf this ability.

giblfiz
2018-11-03, 12:28 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

I see where your coming from. My initial thoughts were that it would be a little bit limited because a Sorcerer was squishy as opposed to a cleric or barbarian who's built to be in the thick of it, so damage aura's don't really synergize well for them.

The "at will" nature of the effect seems pretty minor to me, A third level slots seem pretty minor to me by lvl 14. The real change I saw was that it did not require concentration (similar to flight for the draconic). I hadn't actually thought about it being inexpensive in action economy as well.

It does feel like at-will no-concentration flight is a HUGE benefit (Historical problems with : flying & improved-invisibility throwing fireballs like an apache attack helicopter).

How specifically would _you_ nerf it?

pygmybatrider
2018-11-03, 01:20 AM
Your Sorcerer isn’t all that squishy though, as he has medium armour and shields from level 1. And it’s not just saving 1 3rd level spell slot, it’s saving a 3rd level spell slot and an action to cast it each encounter, without eating up your precious concentration. It’s also makes it much, much harder for creatures, invisible or otherwise, to sneak up on you without your knowing.

I’d personally change it to something like a bonus action to activate, causing any creatures you choose in a 15 foot radius to make a Wis save or take 3d8 radiant damage, half on a save, usable a number of times per long rest equal to your Cha mod, and even then, it is a very strong ability.

I think the level 6 spells are fine and thematic, but I wouldn’t take the material component cost away from them.

I don’t really understand the 18th level ability - I think I get that the spirits can cast spells for you when you are incapacitated, but the targeting self thing is throwing me off. I can’t really comment on it since I really have no idea how it is supposed to work.

I do like the theme in general, sort of a Sorcerer version of the ancestral guardian barb. Would be nice to see two PCs work together on a shared background.

Damon_Tor
2018-11-03, 05:00 PM
Aid of the Ancestors:

Beginning at 18th level, The spirits of your forebears will channel magic for you even when you are unable to yourself. They are invested in your success and willing to intervene directly on your behalf.
In effect you may cast any spell you know and would be normally be able to regardless of status effects. This spell must select you as the target. Additionally if you are dead, and you have the components required on your person, you may cast Revivify, or Raise Dead.

I like this, but I would word it more carefully.

Something like "While you are incapacitated, dead, or otherwise unable to take actions, you can take one action on your turn to cast a spell ignoring somatic, verbal or material components except those with a listed cost. Spells cast this way cannot target any creature except yourself."

Incapacitated covers almost all of your bases except some weird edge cases, hence "or otherwise unable to take actions."

EDIT: Should probably also add "Being incapacitated doesn't break your concentration."

giblfiz
2018-11-05, 12:09 AM
I don’t really understand the 18th level ability - I think I get that the spirits can cast spells for you when you are incapacitated, but the targeting self thing is throwing me off. I can’t really comment on it since I really have no idea how it is supposed to work.


I think your broadly have the idea I was going for. It seemed like having the spirits cast spells on your behalf with no limitations on target was pretty overpowered. I was also sort of going with a theme of "the ancestors want YOU to survive" (hence the raise dead stuff)

I'll think about how I can do something a little cleaner and clearer.

giblfiz
2018-11-05, 12:19 AM
Your Sorcerer isn’t all that squishy though, as he has medium armour and shields from level 1. And it’s not just saving 1 3rd level spell slot, it’s saving a 3rd level spell slot and an action to cast it each encounter, without eating up your precious concentration. It’s also makes it much, much harder for creatures, invisible or otherwise, to sneak up on you without your knowing.

I’d personally change it to something like a bonus action to activate, causing any creatures you choose in a 15 foot radius to make a Wis save or take 3d8 radiant damage, half on a save, usable a number of times per long rest equal to your Cha mod, and even then, it is a very strong ability.


Point about the Sorc not being as squishy. The way I see it Defalt Sorc is about AC 16 (Mage armor, Dex) Draconic is the same + 1 hp per level, and this guy is maybe AC 18 (Armor + shield + Dex) without the HP. Not sure how 14 HP compares to 2 AC. (I guess the AC probably wins)
Also the shield spell, so I guess that means for the critical round or two your talking about AC 23, which is pretty tough.


So basically your suggested change is "Bonus action to activate" and "Cha mod times per long rest" (It was an oversight on my part to not specify that it's always cast at level three)

What would you think of "2 sorcery points" instead of Cha times per long rest? (cuts down bookkeeping a little)

giblfiz
2018-11-05, 12:23 AM
I like this, but I would word it more carefully.

Something like "While you are incapacitated, dead, or otherwise unable to take actions, you can take one action on your turn to cast a spell ignoring somatic, verbal or material components except those with a listed cost. Spells cast this way cannot target any creature except yourself."

Incapacitated covers almost all of your bases except some weird edge cases, hence "or otherwise unable to take actions."

EDIT: Should probably also add "Being incapacitated doesn't break your concentration."

I really like those revisions. I'll put them in, Thanks!

You also made me realize that a whole other direction I could go with this is "the ancestors maintain / help you maintain concentration"

Damon_Tor
2018-11-05, 09:37 AM
I like this concept a lot, but something about it's been bothering me, and I wasn't sure what it was.

I maybe figured it out: doesn't this feel more like a warlock concept than a sorcerer concept? The ancestors are intelligent entities that assist you and give you spellcasting powers, which makes them more like a patron than a source of sorcerous magic. None of the other sorcery potions include an intelligent power source: your dragon/celestial ancestor does nothing to help you.

And as a warlock build, you'd have less trouble justifying the armor and weapon proficiency, since that's already a feature of an existing warlock pact. If there are particular sorcerer spells you think of as being essential to this concept, make them pact spells. If there are particular sorcerer abilities you can't do without, make a version of those abilities that can work as a warlock patron feature.

Just my two cents.