Thought Experiment: Cultural Ability Score Bonuses

[PhoenixPhyre]

How would you react to a proposal like this? I'm more interested in how you feel about the concept, rather than the specific implementation. This is purely a thought experiment at this point, but I'd love to get feedback.
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As a DM and a world-builder, I want to encourage immersion in the world I've created and ensure that characters could organically arise in that setting. Toward those ends, I want to change how characters are created. First and foremost, I'm introducing another background-like feature (Regional Origin) and tying that into your character's ability scores and proficiencies.

Altered Racial Ability Score Bonuses:
-1. Only ability score bonuses are altered. Everything else stays the same.
0. "Human" is no longer a race--instead there are several races based on variant human but with partially pre-selected ability score bonuses. Similar for half-elf.
1. Sub-races no longer grant ability score bonuses.
2. Each race instead gets the following ability score bonuses:
** list here--each race normally gets their "major characteristic" bonus (the +2). Races that are strange (like humans and half-elves) have a limited choice (+1 to one of three). High elves get +1 INT/+1 DEX.


Half-elves
The culture and appearance of half-elves depends on which cultures they come from. These take the mechanical form of variants that only affect which regional origin they can take and their ability score bonuses.
Ability Scores (all variants): +2 CHA
Racial Variant: Earth-kin:
Ability score bonus: +1 to STR, CON, or WIS.
Available regions: Dreamshore, Sea of Grass, Southshore

Humans
Humans are probably the most common race, but they have significant intra-racial divides based on culture. These are mechanically implemented as racial variants, using Variant Human as the base. Normal human is not available. This choice of racial variants sets the racial component of your ability score bonuses.

Racial Variant: Fang-kin
Ability Scores: +1 DEX, +1 INT, or +1 CHA
Available regions: Central District, Northern District, Southern District



Regional Origin
Once you choose a race (or at the same time), choose one of the regions of origin allowed for your race. Each Regional Origin gives the following as well as sets what you'd know without rolling ("common knowledge"):

1) +1 to one specific ability score. Mountain Dwarves instead get +2 to this score (to keep their total the same). If you got +1 from your race, these stack to make +2. If your race already gives a +2 to that score, instead you get +1 to a fall-back score. . These scores are chosen to represent the normal culture of that area.
2) A fixed free proficiency (above and beyond those you normally get). Usually a language, occasionally a tool or skill. If you already have proficiency due to your race, there's a fall-back.
3) A choice from another list of proficiencies. These include all types except armor--languages, skills, tools, and weapons.


This one's an industrial area dominated by dragonborn and goblinoids (who aren't evil) with a sprinkling of orcs (also not evil). Full descriptions omitted.
Byarmarsh: Southern Remnant Dynasty
Ability Score: Intelligence. Fallback: Constitution
Common Proficiency: Ngyon Toi (Goblin). Fallback: Tinkerer’s Tools
Tools: Tinkerer / Smith / Alchemist
Skills: Arcana / Investigation
Languages: Draconic
Weapons: light crossbow / heavy crossbow / hand crossbow

This one's one of the more "traditional" human/halfling/high-elf areas, a strongly agricultural region:
Sea of Grass: Central Council
Ability Score: Charisma. Fallback: Wisdom
Common Proficiency: Religion. Fallback: Vehicles, land
Tools: Cobbler / Brewer / Weaver
Skills: Animal Handling / Religion
Languages: Old Imperial / Yonwach (High Elf)
Weapons: Whip

[Dudewithknives]

How would you react to a proposal like this? I'm more interested in how you feel about the concept, rather than the specific implementation. This is purely a thought experiment at this point, but I'd love to get feedback.
-----------------
As a DM and a world-builder, I want to encourage immersion in the world I've created and ensure that characters could organically arise in that setting. Toward those ends, I want to change how characters are created. First and foremost, I'm introducing another background-like feature (Regional Origin) and tying that into your character's ability scores and proficiencies.

Altered Racial Ability Score Bonuses:
-1. Only ability score bonuses are altered. Everything else stays the same.
0. "Human" is no longer a race--instead there are several races based on variant human but with partially pre-selected ability score bonuses. Similar for half-elf.
1. Sub-races no longer grant ability score bonuses.
2. Each race instead gets the following ability score bonuses:
** list here--each race normally gets their "major characteristic" bonus (the +2). Races that are strange (like humans and half-elves) have a limited choice (+1 to one of three). High elves get +1 INT/+1 DEX.


Half-elves
The culture and appearance of half-elves depends on which cultures they come from. These take the mechanical form of variants that only affect which regional origin they can take and their ability score bonuses.
Ability Scores (all variants): +2 CHA
Racial Variant: Earth-kin:
Ability score bonus: +1 to STR, CON, or WIS.
Available regions: Dreamshore, Sea of Grass, Southshore

Humans
Humans are probably the most common race, but they have significant intra-racial divides based on culture. These are mechanically implemented as racial variants, using Variant Human as the base. Normal human is not available. This choice of racial variants sets the racial component of your ability score bonuses.

Racial Variant: Fang-kin
Ability Scores: +1 DEX, +1 INT, or +1 CHA
Available regions: Central District, Northern District, Southern District



Regional Origin
Once you choose a race (or at the same time), choose one of the regions of origin allowed for your race. Each Regional Origin gives the following as well as sets what you'd know without rolling ("common knowledge"):

1) +1 to one specific ability score. Mountain Dwarves instead get +2 to this score (to keep their total the same). If you got +1 from your race, these stack to make +2. If your race already gives a +2 to that score, instead you get +1 to a fall-back score. . These scores are chosen to represent the normal culture of that area.
2) A fixed free proficiency (above and beyond those you normally get). Usually a language, occasionally a tool or skill. If you already have proficiency due to your race, there's a fall-back.
3) A choice from another list of proficiencies. These include all types except armor--languages, skills, tools, and weapons.


This one's an industrial area dominated by dragonborn and goblinoids (who aren't evil) with a sprinkling of orcs (also not evil). Full descriptions omitted.
Byarmarsh: Southern Remnant Dynasty
Ability Score: Intelligence. Fallback: Constitution
Common Proficiency: Ngyon Toi (Goblin). Fallback: Tinkerer’s Tools
Tools: Tinkerer / Smith / Alchemist
Skills: Arcana / Investigation
Languages: Draconic
Weapons: light crossbow / heavy crossbow / hand crossbow

This one's one of the more "traditional" human/halfling/high-elf areas, a strongly agricultural region:
Sea of Grass: Central Council
Ability Score: Charisma. Fallback: Wisdom
Common Proficiency: Religion. Fallback: Vehicles, land
Tools: Cobbler / Brewer / Weaver
Skills: Animal Handling / Religion
Languages: Old Imperial / Yonwach (High Elf)
Weapons: Whip



The concept looks good, but seems overly complicated.

Keep base races, just create many more subraces, and add in a third level of region:

ex.
Base race: Elf: +2 dex, vision, trance ect.
Subrace: Wood Elf: No stat bonus, but does get other wood elf stuff
Region:
(X)Elf region: might be savage wood elves more barbaric, you gain training in either like Intimidate or survival, gains +1 Str
or
(Y)Elf region: more nature loving peaceful wood elves, training in either handle animal or nature and + 1 Wis.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The concept looks good, but seems overly complicated.

Keep base races, just create many more subraces, and add in a third level of region:

ex.
Base race: Elf: +2 dex, vision, trance ect.
Subrace: Wood Elf: No stat bonus, but does get other wood elf stuff
Region:
(X)Elf region: might be savage wood elves more barbaric, you gain training in either like Intimidate or survival, gains +1 Str
or
(Y)Elf region: more nature loving peaceful wood elves, training in either handle animal or nature and + 1 Wis.

My issue with that is that all the regions (and there's a lot of them) are multi-racial. The region with the fewest has 3, the most has...lots. This makes it quite complicated (and repetitive), since you have to accomodate all 87 (yes, I counted them) combinations of races, sub-races, and bonus patterns.

I could try writing that up...we'll see.

[Dudewithknives]

My issue with that is that all the regions (and there's a lot of them) are multi-racial. The region with the fewest has 3, the most has...lots. This makes it quite complicated (and repetitive), since you have to accomodate all 87 (yes, I counted them) combinations of races, sub-races, and bonus patterns.

I could try writing that up...we'll see.

The region bonus could be for any race that lives there, I just labeled it that way because it was a woodelf example.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Edit: To the main point--would you be irritated by this? Does it seem like I'm "taking away build freedom" or "stereotyping races" or anything else like that? Assuming the implementation details are adjusted, would you find such a system helpful in getting immersed in the regions? That's what I'm really asking for here.


The region bonus could be for any race that lives there, I just labeled it that way because it was a woodelf example.

That's actually how I have it right now.

You have Race/sub-race entries (showing what they get) with a list of available regions for that race. Then you have a race-neutral regional entry, describing the region and giving the mechanical benefits.

The complex part is dealing with overlaps--it may make thematic sense that everyone who lives there speaks Orc. But then what to Orcs from that region get (because they get Orcish by default)?

I could strip those from the racial entries, leaving the racial entries basically just the physiological stuff and put all the proficiency-oriented stuff (stonecunning, bonus languages, bonus weapon proficiencies) into the regions. It would give the regions more flavor, but drastically change the races and possibly cause balance issues (mountain dwarves, for example would be quite barren). Just thinking out loud right now.

[bid]

My issue with that is that all the regions (and there's a lot of them) are multi-racial. The region with the fewest has 3, the most has...lots. This makes it quite complicated (and repetitive), since you have to accomodate all 87 (yes, I counted them) combinations of races, sub-races, and bonus patterns.
Simplify:
- in this region, everyone works hard: all (sub)races may trade in for a +1 Str.
- in that region, religion is well developped: all (sub)races may trade in for a +1 Wis.

Sure, mountain dwarves from this region and hill dwarves from that region have no option, but that's what flavor does.

[solidork]

I think it would be MUCH simpler to just give everyone an additional perk on top of what they normally get, instead of trying to engage with the race/subrace system.

Plus, your players will love any free bonus.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Simplify:
- in this region, everyone works hard: all (sub)races may trade in for a +1 Str.
- in that region, religion is well developped: all (sub)races may trade in for a +1 Wis.

Sure, mountain dwarves from this region and hill dwarves from that region have no option, but that's what flavor does.

That's simple, but it drastically homogenizes and oversimplifies the cultures of the regions. Also, how does that play with humans/half-elves who already get to pick their bonuses?


I think it would be MUCH simpler to just give everyone an additional perk on top of what they normally get, instead of trying to engage with the race/subrace system.

Plus, your players will love any free bonus.

That was my first thought. Basically just add the regional proficiencies as "if you choose a region and include that in your backstory, you can choose some free proficiencies as flavor." And in practice, that's probably what I'd do.

For this I was thinking about trying to differentiate the races from themselves and break out of the racial monoculture thing. Because if dwarves are strong and hardy (in part) because they work hard, would a culture of dwarves that didn't have those constraints still have those bonuses?

[Consensus]

I like the idea of reworking the base races' stats to be just biology and having this other system be the cultural component, although that would be a challenge. Over all I like the idea, and the flexibility as well as logic that it provides. I like seeing posts about your world, although sometimes they get a bit long for me

EDIT: wow I started every sentence with I like, good thing this isn't an essay

[PhoenixPhyre]

I like the idea of reworking the base races' stats to be just biology and having this other system be the cultural component, although that would be a challenge. Over all I like the idea, and the flexibility as well as logic that it provides. I like seeing posts about your world, although sometimes they get a bit long for me

EDIT: wow I started every sentence with I like, good thing this isn't an essay

Thanks!

I do tend to be a bit verbose, don't I...:smallredface:

[Cynthaer]

I'm interested in analyzing the practical impact of your proposed changes, but I need a little more detail to start.

Can you provide your available regions for a couple of the races, and the mechanical details for those regions? Dwarf, elf, and (let's say) tiefling would be enough, or if you have a full document somewhere that would be great.

EDIT: Also, a design goal question. Do you care at all whether "classic" archetypes are mechanically encouraged or not? (E.g., elf wizards and rangers, dwarf clerics and fighters, halfling rogues and bards, dragonborn paladins, tiefling warlocks.)

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm interested in analyzing the practical impact of your proposed changes, but I need a little more detail to start.

Can you provide your available regions for a couple of the races, and the mechanical details for those regions? Dwarf, elf, and (let's say) tiefling would be enough, or if you have a full document somewhere that would be great.

EDIT: Also, a design goal question. Do you care at all whether "classic" archetypes are mechanically encouraged or not? (E.g., elf wizards and rangers, dwarf clerics and fighters, halfling rogues and bards, dragonborn paladins, tiefling warlocks.)

Here's a partially-complete document of the races: Race Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1juOrTNzvlPz6wUeQmuHbvBw7TaywU_E71kdg-k-GN2g/edit?usp=sharing). All the race -> region mappings are there as well as the base ability scores, but not all the cultural and physical descriptions

Here's a (more complete) list of the regions and the mechanical benefits: Region List (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BVk3sALX8QbulW53pqZPaHJKcTcx2QIiocb02RYlSX8/edit?usp=sharing). This one also has a nearly-complete mapping of race -> region, although it squishes the human/half-elf sub-races together.

As to the design goal--I'd like the "classic" archetypes to be at least possible somewhere, even if you can deviate strongly from type by choosing another region. That was a part of my thought as to what the appropriate regional ability score modifiers should be (based on the people living there). Yeah, that's circular. No, I don't really care :smalltongue:

[Cynthaer]

Let's set aside humans for the moment because they're the most complex, and start with the standard "+2 from race, +1 from subrace" or "+2/+1 with no subrace" models.

You're mostly keeping the +2 and removing the +1 from the subrace. The practical impact here is:

A) Subraces now only provide features, not specific stats.

B) This disassociates certain race/class archetypes in a somewhat uneven manner.

I'm going to focus here on the traditional race/class archetypes that are encouraged by the existing design. I'm not concerned with whether changing these is good or bad, just what the impact is.

Dwarf: All dwarves have Con, which is generically useful. Regions grant Int, Str (backup to Con), Str, Cha, Cha, Int.

The "hill dwarf cleric" is no longer encouraged (except Str clerics), and arcane casters are more encouraged.

Halfling: All halflings still favor Dex classes. Regions grant Con, Str, Cha, Int.

Basically the same as the old subclasses, with a couple more options. Only Wis is unavailable.

Tiefling: Still gets Cha, the normal casters are encouraged. Regions grant Int, Str, Wis (backup to Cha), Int (backup to Cha), Int.

Basically unchanged, with a few more options. Only Dex classes are fully discouraged.

So, after looking at it a while, I'm not a massive fan of the current implementation. I feel like I'm cross-referencing way too much in order to figure out whether my halfling bard can start with 16 Cha or not—this could be helped by noting the associated stat bonuses next to each "available region".

Also, subrace choices don't feel great. I think it's because dropping the stat boost removes both a large part of the subrace's mechanics and a nice big signpost telling you what kinds of builds it's probably meant for.

Also also, the "primary/backup stat" thing feels ugly as hell.

Initial conclusion:

I'd actually suggest using your high elf as a better default implementation: Instead of leaving the +2 and taking the +1 from the race/subrace, lower the +2 to a +1 and leave the subraces intact. This leaves all the mechanics and signposts intact for race/subrace choices, while still leaving room for regions to open up new possibilities. Plus, it lets you get rid of the clumsy regional "backup stat", because it doesn't raise anything to a +3 bonus.

(Mountain dwarves pose a problem here with their +2 Str from the subclass. I recommend just dropping them to +1 Str—with regions giving them access to casting stats, the whole justification for giving them +2 Str in the first place is already thrown out the window.)

[Man_Over_Game]

I've been mulling over this a little bit.

While a bit complicated, and potentially unbalanced, one solution I like is the idea of removing the subclasses, and then having a list of acceptable half-feats available to each race that matches your culture.

For example, rather than High elf, Wood elf, or Drow, you'd have Elven Accuracy, Observant, or Keen Mind, for if you were raised as a raider, an aristocrat, or a nomad.

Then remove Variant Human altogether, and say that the base human isn't restricted to half-feats. It'd open up a lot of diversity for a lot of potential culture differentiations, while also allowing players to take diverse feat options without feeling like they're falling behind in mechanical value.

[8wGremlin]

There is a DND5e Sci-fi spin-off called Hyperlanes

Characters are from different planets and different cultures -
you first select your physiology, did your species evolve from a plant, an insect, a fungus, an animal, etc. or were you built?
then you select that species culture, are you diplomats, warriors, bureaucrats or something else

the physical stats are based on your physiology with bonuses only to the physical stats and a feature (some get a second bonus action a turn to do physical things because they have 4 arms)

Your mental stats are based on your culture, bonuses to mental stats with similar features.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Initial conclusion:

I'd actually suggest using your high elf as a better default implementation: Instead of leaving the +2 and taking the +1 from the race/subrace, lower the +2 to a +1 and leave the subraces intact. This leaves all the mechanics and signposts intact for race/subrace choices, while still leaving room for regions to open up new possibilities. Plus, it lets you get rid of the clumsy regional "backup stat", because it doesn't raise anything to a +3 bonus.

(Mountain dwarves pose a problem here with their +2 Str from the subclass. I recommend just dropping them to +1 Str—with regions giving them access to casting stats, the whole justification for giving them +2 Str in the first place is already thrown out the window.)

Interesting. I guess I basically agree. I may convert the backup stat into a straight up choice (either +1 to X or +1 to Y). Thanks for the analysis.


I've been mulling over this a little bit.

While a bit complicated, and potentially unbalanced, one solution I like is the idea of removing the subclasses, and then having a list of acceptable half-feats available to each race that matches your culture.

For example, rather than High elf, Wood elf, or Drow, you'd have Elven Accuracy, Observant, or Keen Mind, for if you were raised as a raider, an aristocrat, or a nomad.

Then remove Variant Human altogether, and say that the base human isn't restricted to half-feats. It'd open up a lot of diversity for a lot of potential culture differentiations, while also allowing players to take diverse feat options without feeling like they're falling behind in mechanical value.

See, for my particular world I'd probably go the other direction--sub-races for everybody. The elven sub-races, in particular, are a well-attested in-universe difference. They had a big, bloody split a few dozen centuries ago that involved dropping one of the planet's moons on the center of the aelvar's (the common ancestor) empire and cracking a continent (in the process of making druidic shamanism a magical force). In the one area where high elves are still around, the high elves and wood elves despise each other. Dwarves? Humans? They're fine with those. But the other group of elves are beneath contempt. Only the governmental structure makes them work together at all, and that only when absolutely necessary. And if you want to play a pariah among your own people, being a high elf druid or a wood elf wizard is a good start.

I think I'll prototype a "cultures as sub-races" draft sometime soon and see how I like that version.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Speaking of sub-race prototypes, I'd love comments on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572881-Culture-specific-subraces-for-the-sub-race-less-PEACH) where I start to do just that. Humans and Half-elves are up right now, with dragonborn, orcs, hobgoblins, and tieflings to come.

This assumes that regions of origin don't give ability score increases and sub-races do as normal. For that prototype, all races not mentioned act as normal.

[Lunali]

Use these sorts of bonuses on NPCs and let the players choose their stats normally, making them aware of the typical stats of those in their region. This gives different regions their own flavor but maintains the normal balance for the players. More importantly, it means that players will be more likely to create their background by what makes sense rather than what gives them the stats they want.

[bid]

That's simple, but it drastically homogenizes and oversimplifies the cultures of the regions. Also, how does that play with humans/half-elves who already get to pick their bonuses?
Are you sure you're looking for a thought experiment?
How about they must take the +1 Str/Wis of this/that region?

KISS principle.

[Cynthaer]

Interesting. I guess I basically agree. I may convert the backup stat into a straight up choice (either +1 to X or +1 to Y). Thanks for the analysis.

One general thought: If you were designing something for general use, rather than your own personal campaign, I would strongly suggest at thing point that you drop the stat-region connection entirely and just give everybody a floating +1 to put anywhere they like. In practice, that's basically what this will amount to for anybody doing a standard mechanical build—except with an extra, mildly irritating layer added, where you have to work out which region your lightfoot halfling wizard has to come from in order to hit 16 Int.

I think that tying stats to regions and restricting regions by race is only going to be truly satisfying for players who engage with character creation in one very specific way: Building the character from start to finish in order from race -> subrace -> region, and then either (A) picking a class organically based on the stat boosts they end up with, or (B) being willing to accept the stat boosts they have for the class they want. I would suggest making your players aware of this so they can decide to play along.

Obviously a player can engage with your system in the normal way, where you look at (sub)race and class options simultaneously, but it would be more frustrating than usual because of the third factor that must be considered. If you want to support this approach, then I say regions need to stop sitting halfway between "subrace" and "background".

Either drop the stat bonus and make them more like backgrounds (so they just provide proficiencies), or integrate them into the (sub)race choice as a single decision point.

[PhoenixPhyre]

One general thought: If you were designing something for general use, rather than your own personal campaign, I would strongly suggest at thing point that you drop the stat-region connection entirely and just give everybody a floating +1 to put anywhere they like. In practice, that's basically what this will amount to for anybody doing a standard mechanical build—except with an extra, mildly irritating layer added, where you have to work out which region your lightfoot halfling wizard has to come from in order to hit 16 Int.

I think that tying stats to regions and restricting regions by race is only going to be truly satisfying for players who engage with character creation in one very specific way: Building the character from start to finish in order from race -> subrace -> region, and then either (A) picking a class organically based on the stat boosts they end up with, or (B) being willing to accept the stat boosts they have for the class they want. I would suggest making your players aware of this so they can decide to play along.

Obviously a player can engage with your system in the normal way, where you look at (sub)race and class options simultaneously, but it would be more frustrating than usual because of the third factor that must be considered. If you want to support this approach, then I say regions need to stop sitting halfway between "subrace" and "background".

Either drop the stat bonus and make them more like backgrounds (so they just provide proficiencies), or integrate them into the (sub)race choice as a single decision point.

My current thought is to just make separate sub-races for each culture. They can (if they want) pick a region as well but it doesn't give anything but an extra proficiency or so. Stat mods are from sub-races.

I linked my current attempt at doing so upthread. Still needs balance work and sub-races for hobgoblins (and tieflings).

[Mjolnirbear]

I made it a class thing.

If you've spent your apprenticeship training your mind and will and memorizing Tenser's Aetheric Line and other basic spell parts then you've worked hard. Natural talent didn't get you there. You're a wizard, not a sorcerer.

So, all races, including half-elf, mountain dwarf, and human get +1 to one stat, +2 to another, however you like. Human gets an extra +1 on top of that.

You don't feel mechanically pressured to be a tiefling warlock, or a dwarf fighter, or firbolg cleric. You can be a tiefling cleric and not be punished for thinking outside the box. You can be a rock gnome because you like to tinker even if you choose sorcerer.

[Sharur]

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the idea. In my opinion, 5e is great because it is simplified, rather than 3.X which was far to fiddly for my tastes.

That said, if I were going to implement your idea, I wouldn't want it to produce that much of a mechanical effect, on the basis that it would just make PCs stronger. So instead, I would just have more backgrounds or variant backgrounds. E.g. Sea-of-Grass Guild Artisan instead of generic Guild Artisan; Native of "Specific Wild Area" rather than Outlander, so that the survival skill (which is already under utilized) gets some more use, etc.

Alternatively, I'd make different sub-races. Two cents from my home-brew world:I use sub-races as cultures. E.g. Dwarves-dominated areas tend to be highly structured and militaristic, leading to the Mountain Dwarf sub-race, whereas as Dwarves outside of those areas tend to be freer, healthier and leading to the Hill Dwarf sub-race. Elves are subdivided into those who dwell in nature (Wood Elves, with increased wisdom, fleetness of foot and nature skills) and those who dwell with the Fey (High Elves, increased intelligence and magical ability), and the Drow, who are not born but made through profane rituals of dedication to Lloth.

So if I wanted to make a new "culture" I'd make a new sub-race for it, or a bunch of "aligned" sub-races. One could even bend existing sub-races to fit, e.g. Halflings and Gnomes in Dwarven-dominated areas take on Dwarvish behaviors, increasing their Constitution. Such halflings have to deal with stronger Dwarvish drinks, leading to Dwarf-like poison resistance, and gnomes gain tinkering due to their experience with fine metalwork, as they tend to be unable to muster the strength needed for Dwarvish techniques on more robust metal pieces.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I made it a class thing.

If you've spent your apprenticeship training your mind and will and memorizing Tenser's Aetheric Line and other basic spell parts then you've worked hard. Natural talent didn't get you there. You're a wizard, not a sorcerer.

So, all races, including half-elf, mountain dwarf, and human get +1 to one stat, +2 to another, however you like. Human gets an extra +1 on top of that.

You don't feel mechanically pressured to be a tiefling warlock, or a dwarf fighter, or firbolg cleric. You can be a tiefling cleric and not be punished for thinking outside the box. You can be a rock gnome because you like to tinker even if you choose sorcerer.

See, for my setting I'm not so fond of that approach. I like strong archetypes. Especially the wood/high elf split--the reason they're separate (in my setting) is that the common ancestor exiled the ancestors of the wood elves because they couldn't/wouldn't learn arcane magic.

(Similarly) with tieflings and dragonborn--they're more likely to be sorcerers or warlocks (relative to other spell-casters) because of their fiendish/draconic ancestry.

[Mjolnirbear]

See, for my setting I'm not so fond of that approach. I like strong archetypes. Especially the wood/high elf split--the reason they're separate (in my setting) is that the common ancestor exiled the ancestors of the wood elves because they couldn't/wouldn't learn arcane magic.

(Similarly) with tieflings and dragonborn--they're more likely to be sorcerers or warlocks (relative to other spell-casters) because of their fiendish/draconic ancestry.

You can still be a high-charisma tiefling warlock in my system. But players who want to try, say, a half-orc, don't feel shoehorned into fighter or barbarian.

I know mechanically you can do just fine with a 14 in your attack stat all the way to level 20. But it's a real pressure to get an 18 or 20 in your main stat. I see no reason to make that conflict.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You can still be a high-charisma tiefling warlock in my system. But players who want to try, say, a half-orc, don't feel shoehorned into fighter or barbarian.

I know mechanically you can do just fine with a 14 in your attack stat all the way to level 20. But it's a real pressure to get an 18 or 20 in your main stat. I see no reason to make that conflict.

The whole thesis of this thought experiment is to tie the races more to the culture from which they come. That is, to increase the salience of a race/region combination, not reduce it. By eliminating fixed racial stats, you're saying that you don't agree with that thesis. Which is totally fine--it's the reason I asked the question.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think it would be MUCH simpler to just give everyone an additional perk on top of what they normally get, instead of trying to engage with the race/subrace system.

Plus, your players will love any free bonus.

I'd go with this. Having a carrot on hand to bribe players into any potentially limiting houserules can't hurt, and usually a +1 bonus can't break a campaign.

The reason being is that cultures are complicated. Highborn people aren't really from the same culture as lower class ones, even if they are from the same region. Racial minorities, differing social classes underclasses, and other groups will make the problem worse. What's the point of building these beautiful regions if everyone is all the same? Yes, there's an alchemist kingdom which sounds nice, but do they really let their commoners get unfettered access to that? Don't let people in desperate financial situations get your trade secrets!

If the players have to justify the stat increase they want, they might dig through your notes on the regions to get good reasons. It might be a handy way to get the players to read the material.

I like the part of choosing a region for a language/tool/skill/common knowledge. The skill/tool might not apply to everyone, but a choice of two will probably solve that issue.

[Dudewithknives]

You could also just take it a step further.

Race simply gives you your vision mode and only part of the physical racial traits.

IE.

Dwarves get dark vision, and +1 con
Elves get dark vision and trance, +1 dex
Half-orcs get dark vision and +1 str
Humans get +1 skill and 1 feat of choice (let's face it, the +1 to all stats is not nearly as nice as a skill and a feat and 2 +1s.)
ect.

No bonus skills, no bonus stats, no sub races at all.

All other abilities are based on your region.

ex.
if you are from a hard labor mining region you will probably have a con bonus whether you are an elf, a dwarf or whatever.
If you are from a large forest region known for hunting, you will probably be at least trained in survival or nature no matter what job you do.

Just be careful to balance it out.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You could also just take it a step further.

Race simply gives you your vision mode and only part of the physical racial traits.

IE.

Dwarves get dark vision, and +1 con
Elves get dark vision and trance, +1 dex
Half-orcs get dark vision and +1 str
Humans get +1 skill and 1 feat of choice (let's face it, the +1 to all stats is not nearly as nice as a skill and a feat and 2 +1s.)
ect.

No bonus skills, no bonus stats, no sub races at all.

All other abilities are based on your region.

ex.
if you are from a hard labor mining region you will probably have a con bonus whether you are an elf, a dwarf or whatever.
If you are from a large forest region known for hunting, you will probably be at least trained in survival or nature no matter what job you do.

Just be careful to balance it out.

I thought about it, but I like the idea that race matters. I want race and culture to matter, because it does. Most of my races are engineered for specific traits, so a dwarf that grows up in the city and never does a hard day's labor will have some of the increased Constitution; orcs were bred/created for strength, so all of them are stronger than average. Etc.

As well as some regional groups having darkvision (one has it as a gift from a now-dead god), so :smallwink: