Drow Society - Sexist but not the way you would think

[Danathelseus]

So, my D&D gaming group are starting Waterdeep Heist. I am playing a Drow Rogue (at my DMs urging…) and so started googling for background and leveling ideas. I read Salvatore’s Drizzt series several years ago, along with Elaine Cunningham’s Drow series. I have had drow characters before, in 2nd edition, but something always felt off to me about the official society. And not only the question of where Matron Malice gets her funding.
As I was reading various blogs, it came to me. The Drow society, as exemplified by Menzoberranzen, is really sexist but not in the way one would think.
Let’s compare this matriarchy with a patriarchal society most people would be familiar with – Western Europe and the USA, specifically about the 1950s or earlier.
In the Patriarchal 1950s, women are supposed to stay at home, be religious, and have children (the ones that are not privileged enough to do so were looked down on). Men were in charge of the military and intellectual pursuits.
In Matriarchal Menzoberranzen, women are… Supposed to be religious (clerics to Lloth) and the most powerful and privileged (Matrons) stay home and have children. Men are in charge of the military (Weaponsmaster and Melee Magthere) and intellectual pursuits (wizards).
Does anyone else see a problem with this?
Drow society needs a rebooting, even if – or maybe especially if – they stay an evil religious matriarchy.

Anyone else want to talk about this? Maybe think of ways to fix them?

And Mods, I tried to find a current thread about this and failed.

[Tiadoppler]

I'm not sure how much sense it makes to draw conclusions about the Drow from real-world societies.


Drow society is (in some sense) a Theocracy: the priestesses hold immense social power - including authority over the military.

Magic is real, and so is Lolth: the priestesses hold immense magical and martial power.


So yes, Drow females are religious, and the most powerful/wealthy of them don't need to work a day job, but that doesn't mean they should be underestimated. You can call them "priestesses" but in Drow society, that means 'privileged, politically powerful, wealthy, deadly slaveowners who gain power by defeating their enemies and can (sometimes) channel the power of a cruel deity'.

[Unoriginal]

So, my D&D gaming group are starting Waterdeep Heist. I am playing a Drow Rogue (at my DMs urging…) and so started googling for background and leveling ideas. I read Salvatore’s Drizzt series several years ago, along with Elaine Cunningham’s Drow series. I have had drow characters before, in 2nd edition, but something always felt off to me about the official society. And not only the question of where Matron Malice gets her funding.
As I was reading various blogs, it came to me. The Drow society, as exemplified by Menzoberranzen, is really sexist but not in the way one would think.
Let’s compare this matriarchy with a patriarchal society most people would be familiar with – Western Europe and the USA, specifically about the 1950s or earlier.
In the Patriarchal 1950s, women are supposed to stay at home, be religious, and have children (the ones that are not privileged enough to do so were looked down on). Men were in charge of the military and intellectual pursuits.
In Matriarchal Menzoberranzen, women are… Supposed to be religious (clerics to Lloth) and the most powerful and privileged (Matrons) stay home and have children. Men are in charge of the military (Weaponsmaster and Melee Magthere) and intellectual pursuits (wizards).
Does anyone else see a problem with this?
Drow society needs a rebooting, even if – or maybe especially if – they stay an evil religious matriarchy.

Anyone else want to talk about this? Maybe think of ways to fix them?

And Mods, I tried to find a current thread about this and failed.

...alright, in the off-chance you actually mistunderstood and this is not a troll thread:


Drow women have all the power. Matrons don't "stay home and have children", they rule and control the government. Being mothers just grant them more power, because the kid is either an useful tool or a sacrifice to Lolth.

Male drow aren't in charge of the military. SOME of them are high-ranked because of their individual skills, but those who are in charge are the female drow.

Male drow are not in charge of intellectual pursuits. The Priestesses of Lolth are. Male drow are authorized to pursue wizardry to make themselves useful, but even then they're considered inferior to any female intellectual.

Your comparison transparently doesn't work. A society where women are told to stay in the kitchen is obviously not the same as one where women rule everything and where men are literally treated only slightly better than slaves.

Sure, the drow have delimited roles for both genders, but obviously "women are in charge at all cost, men who disagree are killed" has nothing to do with 1950's standards of how women should behave.

Drow society doesn't "need" rebooting or "fixing". Their portrayal is what it is, but if you *want* to change it for your personal tastes, go for it.


Drow females are religious, and the most powerful/wealthy of them don't need to work a day job

Well their day job is either "acquire more power" or "fight to keep the power you've acquired".

[Man_Over_Game]

It's a shift in concept slightly.

Drow don't "stay at home" and just have children. They rule kingdoms, and they raise successors. Males are outcasted, as they're temporarily needed for an heir, and then can promptly be disposed of. Similarly, in a modern-day problem, mothers tend to leave children less often than fathers, likely due to the time spent during the labor and the requirements for breastfeeding.

On the other note, men are predominantly larger, stronger, and have more testosterone. Them taking wounds during a labor won't cause a loss in the child. Also keep in mind that a population's growth rate isn't limited by the number of men, but by the number of women. With this logic, you could dispose of probably half of your male population as slaves or drafted soldiers, and your community would likely thrive.

And that's exactly what Drow do.

Men ruled in our history likely due to the ability to rapidly create children (and spread influence) while also having the competitive and aggressive composure provided by the higher levels of testosterone, as well as the physical strength needed for early leadership.

We have it wrong, they don't.

[Edit] Ninja'd. With the exact same first line.

[Unoriginal]

On the other note, men are predominantly larger, stronger, and have more testosterone.

Female drow are actually in majority bigger than male ones. Including in muscle mass.

[Gryndle]

there is a key distinction here: Drow men tend take the role of the military and wizardry, and do command or drive progress in those areas as much as is allowed. However, they are not "in charge" of those areas, they still answer to the women of their Houses, the commands of the Matron Mothers and the Clerics of Loth. The Drow females still dictate the missions/tasks, they just leave it to the senior males to get it done, including sometimes deciding the "how". Ultimately, at the end of the day, the Drow male general still licks the boots of the females at their pleasure.

short version, just because the drow males perform certain roles, doesn't mean they are actually "in charge" of those roles.

[Segev]

It's also a huge stretch to claim that "1950s housewives" were "supposed to be religious" as if that were a distinction. Everybody was "supposed to be religious." In fact, either Christian or Jewish (with the odd foreigner being muslim or hindu or something). Men included. And, given that there are no Judeo-Christian sects of which I'm aware which have exclusively-female preachers/priests/whatever-the-title-is, while there are which have exclusively-male ones, this flies in the face of the parallel being drawn: Drow matriarchs aren't just 'religious,' they're the Priest Caste, in (as Tiadoppler mentioned) a theocratic society.

Drow society is absolutely female-dominant. I'm sure there are "misogyny!" arguments to be made that a female-dominant society is CE, but the parallels you're trying to draw are flawed as arguments because they require twisting and warping things to make them look similar.

In truth, Drow society is female-dominant because it lets them show "empowered" scantily-clad women who are sexually aggressive in a manner more often associated with male behavior in a male-dominant society. ...well, even that's not true. That's not "the" reason. It's "a" reason. The real reason is that Lolth is the villainous goddess at their head and she is a bitter, man-hating spider. And the creator thought it made for interesting villains.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Let's also be clear that Drow society isn't supposed to make sense from a real-world sociological point of view. It's run by the insane (by our standards), evil (by any sensible standards) religious zealots of a chaotic evil deity who exemplifies her alignment.

Oh, and it was created by a bunch of guys who weren't particularly ept at sociology either. :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Let's also be clear that Drow society isn't supposed to make sense from a real-world sociological point of view. It's run by the insane (by our standards), evil (by any sensible standards) religious zealots of a chaotic evil deity who exemplifies her alignment.

Oh, and it was created by a bunch of guys who weren't particularly ept at sociology either. :smallbiggrin:

Indeed, I think it's been pointed out many times that Drow society only manages to maintain its "structure" as-is because Lolth provides plenty of divine intervention. It is a society with arcane and byzantine laws and traditions, but they exist precisely to be a mockery of the order of Law. They are broken with a wink and a nod, or even brazenly ignored when they can silence those who'd point it out, and are used as excuses to justify internicine wars.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Indeed, I think it's been pointed out many times that Drow society only manages to maintain its "structure" as-is because Lolth provides plenty of divine intervention. It is a society with arcane and byzantine laws and traditions, but they exist precisely to be a mockery of the order of Law. They are broken with a wink and a nod, or even brazenly ignored when they can silence those who'd point it out, and are used as excuses to justify internicine wars.

Exactly what you'd expect from a chaotic evil "twisted mirror" of a society. It's like one of those paintings that looks normal on the surface but the more you look at the details, the more :sideways_owl: it gets.

[Unoriginal]

People really tend to forget that most elves are chaotic.

[Windwaert]

It only makes sense to me that Drow females would stay home to do the child-rearing.
Assuming that female Drow carry out the pregnancy, there is a huge difference in parental investment and parental certainty between the sexes.
However, I guess religious and divine intervention could have a much greater effect on their societal structure than sexual dimorphism would.

[hymer]

Aren't drow NE in this edition? I'm pretty sure they were in 3.X.

[JackPhoenix]

Aren't drow NE in this edition? I'm pretty sure they were in 3.X.

They are, and they were.

[Unoriginal]

It only makes sense to me that Drow females would stay home to do the child-rearing.
Assuming that female Drow carry out the pregnancy, there is a huge difference in parental investment and parental certainty between the sexes.

Drow matrons probably don't do much child-rearing themselves. Also the only reason they would "stay home" is because they works their big, palace-like homes.

The father of a drow barely matter for the drow, anyway.



However, I guess religious and divine intervention could have a much greater effect on their societal structure than sexual dimorphism would.

Male drow are general smaller and with less strength.

[Dudewithknives]

Why should a completely fiction society in a VERY different world with vastly different racial abilities and societies care about what we preceive as "sexist".

I really doubt, there are many Drow SJW's running around, well not for very long at least, they would quickly be killed.

[Windwaert]

Male drow are general smaller and with less strength.

I was looking into this, and apparently males weigh more on average, according to the Player's Guide to Faerûn by Richard Baker and James Wyatt.

[Unoriginal]

I was looking into this, and apparently males weigh more on average, according to the Player's Guide to Faerûn by Richard Baker and James Wyatt.

Then they changed it for 5e.

[Crgaston]

I was looking into this, and apparently males weigh more on average, according to the Player's Guide to Faerûn by Richard Baker and James Wyatt.

Back in 2e it was the opposite.

http://people.wku.edu/charles.plemons/ad&d/races/height.html

[Corpsecandle717]

Drow are interesting in the evolution of the game. They're arguably one of the more detailed races, but since there was very little management to get all the sources aligned. I've read books that claimed Drow were in capable of reverie and then another book where a drow was able to mediate instead of sleep. There were even two different drow races in 3.0...Noble Drow and plain ole Drow. Noble Drow had a lot of inherent spell casting and greater magic resistance.

Then there was some stream lining in 3.5 where if I remember correctly they dropped the highborn and made the inherent magics part of the family crests and all Drow ended up with a higher magic resistance than in 3.0, but not quite as good as the original Noble Drow. In short they've never stayed the same race mechanically.

That said, all the novels I've read imply or have stated the strongest warriors were always female. Strongest not necessarily being the BEST...especially since Drow prize nimbleness over strength, but yes the novels generally have implied that Drow selective breeding lead to a males tending to be physically weaker than females.

[Danathelseus]

...alright, in the off-chance you actually mistunderstood and this is not a troll thread:


Drow women have all the power. Matrons don't "stay home and have children", they rule and control the government. Being mothers just grant them more power, because the kid is either an useful tool or a sacrifice to Lolth.

-They are still the only women with power in the society so far as I can tell from Salvatore’s books, which shaped all later source books and fiction. There is only one path to wealth and power for women, and multiple paths for men. That is not the pattern of a misandrist society but a misogynist one.

Male drow aren't in charge of the military. SOME of them are high-ranked because of their individual skills, but those who are in charge are the female drow.
-Homeland specifically indicated that the school for fighters was male dominated if not solely for men. Women were not given the opportunity for higher training in warrior/military skills.

Male drow are not in charge of intellectual pursuits. The Priestesses of Lolth are. Male drow are authorized to pursue wizardry to make themselves useful, but even then they're considered inferior to any female intellectual.
-What female intellectuals? The wizards have labs. While there are a few females with secret clerical spells and poisons, clerical magic is fueled by faith, not knowledge. The clerics don’t research things and experiment. The wizards do. Ergo, the wizards are the intellectuals, and the researchers. You can argue that research and intellectual pursuits are looked down on, but not that the Priestesses of Lloth are intellectuals.

Your comparison transparently doesn't work. A society where women are told to stay in the kitchen is obviously not the same as one where women rule everything and where men are literally treated only slightly better than slaves.
-That is true, but why are the men – who control two thirds of the types of power in society, if not three fourths (merchants make the money) – not in charge? Why do the women – who are in charge – limiting themselves to only clerical magic? Statistically, there should be two thirds or more of women who would be better warriors or wizards than clerics. Drow get a bonus to Dex and Charisma – there should be a majority of women who do not have the stats to be a divine caster, even in noble houses. What do they do? How do they gain power and influence and why are men favored instead?

Sure, the drow have delimited roles for both genders, but obviously "women are in charge at all cost, men who disagree are killed" has nothing to do with 1950's standards of how women should behave.
-The problem is that a society that was truly misandrist would not have men in so many positions of power. In a society that was truly “women are in charge” then women would be in the majority of all positions of power, instead of just one type.

Drow society doesn't "need" rebooting or "fixing". Their portrayal is what it is, but if you *want* to change it for your personal tastes, go for it.
-Their portrayal makes no sense to me, and I like things to make sense. I know this will have absolutely no effect on the officials books but it may help me form good homebrew rules and changes.

Really, the women should have their hands on all the levers of power in some way. There should be women learning to be fighters to lead the house’s soldiers, because of course you can’t trust males to stay on task unsupervised. The highest ranked wizard in the wizarding college should be female, even if there are more powerful male wizards, because only a female has the wisdom to lead. There should be sexist assumptions and pitfalls baked into the very fabric of society, in the things no one questions because they seem self-evident to them.

[Lord Vukodlak]

"The path to power for a male lies either in the bedroom or the library of the magery"
—Random Drow BGII while infiltrating the city disguised as Drow.

In Drow society, men have power either because they're currently the consort of a powerful woman usually a priestess. Or because they possess powerful magic... of course a wizard capable of casting fireball or similar spells has probably caught the eye of some priestess.



Drow society is absolutely female-dominant. I'm sure there are "misogyny!" arguments to be made that a female-dominant society is CE, but the parallels you're trying to draw are flawed as arguments because they require twisting and warping things to make them look similar. Which fall apart when you point to Orcs a male dominated society in D&D

[JackPhoenix]

"The path to power for a male lies either in the bedroom or the library of the magery"
—Random Drow BGII while infiltrating the city disguised as Drow.

https://yafgc.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2006-08-13-0077-clever-like-the-wolf.jpg

[Windwaert]

If the female Drow are so strong and capable, they really don't need men. They should evolve like Anglerfish with highly reduced males https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglerfish#Reproduction. Now that would be cool.

[Danathelseus]

Why should a completely fiction society in a VERY different world with vastly different racial abilities and societies care about what we preceive as "sexist".

I really doubt, there are many Drow SJW's running around, well not for very long at least, they would quickly be killed.

The issue isn't what Drow in universe consider sexist. The problem isn't that they are sexist. The problem is that they are sexist in ways that make no sense! Their society is supposed to be extremely misandrist but so many details of how it is organized is misogynist. If you are going to have a man hating evil matriarchy do it right! Make it something that truely reflects what a patriarchy is like, but with the other gender!

Don't just make it a S&M fantasy.

[Windwaert]

The issue isn't what Drow in universe consider sexist. The problem isn't that they are sexist. The problem is that they are sexist in ways that make no sense! Their society is supposed to be extremely misandrist but so many details of how it is organized is misogynist. If you are going to have a man hating evil matriarchy do it right! Make it something that truely reflects what a patriarchy is like, but with the other gender!

Don't just make it a S&M fantasy.

The division of labor and inequality of outcome are not "sexist", it's simple biology. Prejudice on sex would be.

[Unoriginal]

-They are still the only women with power in the society

Because they are the ONLY people in society to have any power.


There is only one path to wealth and power for women, and multiple paths for men.


Utterly wrong. There is NO path to wealth and power for men. They will ALWAYS be either second-class citizens or outcasts.


That is not the pattern of a misandrist society but a misogynist one.

Your premise is wrong, and the conclusion equally flawed. Drow society is hateful in general, women are still in power.



-Homeland specifically indicated that the school for fighters was male dominated if not solely for men. Women were not given the opportunity for higher training in warrior/military skills.

This was changed for 5e. And nevertheless, not being allowed a job that was considered lower than the elite they belong to is hardly a sign of 1950-style woman-hating.



-What female intellectuals? The wizards have labs. While there are a few females with secret clerical spells and poisons, clerical magic is fueled by faith, not knowledge. The clerics don’t research things and experiment. The wizards do. Ergo, the wizards are the intellectuals, and the researchers. You can argue that research and intellectual pursuits are looked down on, but not that the Priestesses of Lloth are intellectuals.

Wrong. Wizards research spells. That's it. Lolth's clergy is the one in charge of holding and regulating the knowledge.

It's not because wizard spells are fueled by intelligence that they're a society's only scholars.



-That is true, but why are the men – who control two thirds of the types of power in society, if not three fourths (merchants make the money) – not in charge?

Drow men don't control two thirds of the type of powers in society. They don't control anything.

As for the reason "why are they not in charge?" Because Lolth.



Why do the women – who are in charge – limiting themselves to only clerical magic?

One, they don't limit themselves to it.

Two, even if they did, clerical magic literally depends on the favor of the demon goddess who owns the drow society.



Statistically, there should be two thirds or more of women who would be better warriors or wizards than clerics.

Many drow women are warriors. Or assassins. Or other type of useful House contributors.


Drow get a bonus to Dex and Charisma – there should be a majority of women who do not have the stats to be a divine caster, even in noble houses. What do they do? How do they gain power and influence and

Stats don't determine if you're a Cleric or not, Lolth do. But generally they occupy a role in the House lower than Priestesses, but still far superior than the one of any male.


why are men favored instead?

Men are NOT favored, especially not instead of women.



-The problem is that a society that was truly misandrist would not have men in so many positions of power.

Please stop repeating this.


Drow men are in no position of power. That's the whole thing about them.



-Their portrayal makes no sense to me, and I like things to make sense.

You are mistaken in your understanding of the portrayal.



Really, the women should have their hands on all the levers of power in some way.

They do.



There should be women learning to be fighters to lead the house’s soldiers, because of course you can’t trust males to stay on task unsupervised.

There are.



The highest ranked wizard in the wizarding college should be female, even if there are more powerful male wizards, because only a female has the wisdom to lead.

The one in charge of the wizard colleges are women. That Lolth disapprove of female wizards don't mean that the male wizards aren't under the female drow's heels.



There should be sexist assumptions and pitfalls baked into the very fabric of society, in the things no one questions because they seem self-evident to them.

There is.


The issue isn't what Drow in universe consider sexist. The problem isn't that they are sexist. The problem is that they are sexist in ways that make no sense! Their society is supposed to be extremely misandrist but so many details of how it is organized is misogynist..

Really? A whole society where men are inherently considered inferior and can be killed in impunity when women rule everything, and you think it's misogynist?

[TWrecks]

Sure - while you’re fixing a society who’s patron goddess only gives power to females can you also fix the Middle East?

Actually, Lloth may be in the middle of some personal reformation in the latest books...

[Wub]

Aight, I think I see where you're going with this. It's not the structure per se, it's the overall vibe that you're getting from it.

What makes sense to me is having men do all the dirty work: it's risky, dangerous, and prone to setting teammates up in prime backstabbing position. Drow society also rewards manipulation and subtlety, which runs counter to direct combat.

What I don't get is, based on all the random backstabbing, how getting to dress scantily isn't a luxury only the most powerful could afford. Are they playing stupid chicken, where anyone that doesn't have a plunging neckline is clearly hiding some kind of weakness? If I were a low-level priest/sorcerer, I'd invest in some armor.

[Danathelseus]

It's a shift in concept slightly.

Drow don't "stay at home" and just have children. They rule kingdoms, and they raise successors. Males are outcasted, as they're temporarily needed for an heir, and then can promptly be disposed of. Similarly, in a modern-day problem, mothers tend to leave children less often than fathers, likely due to the time spent during the labor and the requirements for breastfeeding.

On the other note, men are predominantly larger, stronger, and have more testosterone. Them taking wounds during a labor won't cause a loss in the child. Also keep in mind that a population's growth rate isn't limited by the number of men, but by the number of women. With this logic, you could dispose of probably half of your male population as slaves or drafted soldiers, and your community would likely thrive.

And that's exactly what Drow do.

Men ruled in our history likely due to the ability to rapidly create children (and spread influence) while also having the competitive and aggressive composure provided by the higher levels of testosterone, as well as the physical strength needed for early leadership.

We have it wrong, they don't.

[Edit] Ninja'd. With the exact same first line.

Drow don't "stay at home" and just have children. They rule kingdoms, and they raise successors. Males are outcasted, as they're temporarily needed for an heir, and then can promptly be disposed of. Similarly, in a modern-day problem, mothers tend to leave children less often than fathers, likely due to the time spent during the labor and the requirements for breastfeeding.
A Matron Mother rules a house, but they are part of a city-state (kingdom). The problem is the only path to success for women is becoming a Matron Mother/priestess. She might not want to have children. She might not be able to have children. She might not have the stats to cast clerical magic but have a high intelligence, dexterity or strength. If men are the ones being everything but Matron Mother, where does that leave her?

Them taking wounds during a labor won't cause a loss in the child. Also keep in mind that a population's growth rate isn't limited by the number of men, but by the number of women. With this logic, you could dispose of probably half of your male population as slaves or drafted soldiers, and your community would likely thrive.

And that's exactly what Drow do.

Gender dimorphism isn’t relevant to D&D but the other argument does need to be answered. And having men be the wizards and fighters doesn’t make sense when priestesses do not make up 50% of the population, but all women do. Assuming a regular stat spread, not every woman is a priestess. Not even most of the women. I believe that you need a Wisdom of at least 13 to be any good as a cleric. That should be relatively rare (which means it is a good way to separate the truly privileged from everyone else) but leaves the problem of why all the other women aren’t guard captains or house wizards or merchants or whatever path to success they are capable of.

[hamishspence]

So, my D&D gaming group are starting Waterdeep Heist. I am playing a Drow Rogue (at my DMs urging…) and so started googling for background and leveling ideas. I read Salvatore’s Drizzt series several years ago, along with Elaine Cunningham’s Drow series.

I believe that you need a Wisdom of at least 13 to be any good as a cleric. That should be relatively rare (which means it is a good way to separate the truly privileged from everyone else) but leaves the problem of why all the other women aren’t guard captains or house wizards or merchants or whatever path to success they are capable of.



And the protagonist of Elaine Cunningham's novels is a female drow with much more talent for wizardry than for divine magic - at least initially.

[Unoriginal]

What I don't get is, based on all the random backstabbing, how getting to dress scantily isn't a luxury only the most powerful could afford. Are they playing stupid chicken, where anyone that doesn't have a plunging neckline is clearly hiding some kind of weakness? If I were a low-level priest/sorcerer, I'd invest in some armor.

5e drow priestesses wear scale armor or half-plate for fighting.

[Wub]

I never see that in the art.

[Danathelseus]

The division of labor and inequality of outcome are not "sexist", it's simple biology. Prejudice on sex would be.

What? No really, what? There is no gender dimorphism per D&D rules, and no difference in stats between male and female. Also, the society is explicitly described as misandrist in D&D rules. How is the division of labor simple biology? Why would a woman with the same stats as a man not be able to have the same class and/or job? Why wouldn't the people in power not prefer the gender considered more worthy in any role? This is not real life where you could at least make the arguement that there are gender backed differences (which there are but on a bell cureve that overlaps).

Why would there be inequality of outcome unless by fiat?

[Unoriginal]

She might not want to have children. She might not be able to have children. She might not have the stats to cast clerical magic but have a high intelligence, dexterity or strength.

Living by the rules of an evil demon-goddess is not nice, yes.

Your point?

Drow society has places for female who have high intelligence, dexterity or strength.



If men are the ones being everything but Matron Mother

Men are not the ones being everything.


where does that leave her?

In charge.


And having men be the wizards and fighters doesn’t make sense when priestesses do not make up 50% of the population, but all women do. Assuming a regular stat spread, not every woman is a priestess. Not even most of the women.

Even the weakest, lowest-ranked drow woman is placed above all male drow.


I believe that you need a Wisdom of at least 13 to be any good as a cleric. That should be relatively rare (which means it is a good way to separate the truly privileged from everyone else)

Clerics are dependent of Lolth's favor. She decides how many of them there is.


but leaves the problem of why all the other women aren’t guard captains or house wizards or merchants or whatever path to success they are capable of.

Drow women can be guard captains or merchants or whatever path to success they are capable of. They are generally not house wizards because Lolth is against that (though not enough against to discard an useful tool, most of the time).

[Danathelseus]

And the protagonist of Elaine Cunningham's novels is a female drow with much more talent for wizardry than for divine magic - at least initially.

And she is specifically pointed out as exceptional - or at least unusual.

[Unoriginal]

I never see that in the art.

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/4/443/850/403/ooa22aw-11.png


https://xenomorphe.ch/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/DD_Out_of_the_Abyss_Ilvara_Mizzrym.png

[hamishspence]

And she is specifically pointed out as exceptional - or at least unusual.

Not unusual enough that she can't be mentored by other female drow wizards - there's an entire House that specializes in wizardry, with many of the wizards within it being female.

[JackPhoenix]

I never see that in the art.

https://db4sgowjqfwig.cloudfront.net/images/4594234/Ilvara.png
Here's a female non-cleric spellcaster:
https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/4/442/council-of-spiders-mage.png
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1414275957492825122.jpg

[Danathelseus]

Because they are the ONLY people in society to have any power.




Utterly wrong. There is NO path to wealth and power for men. They will ALWAYS be either second-class citizens or outcasts.



Your premise is wrong, and the conclusion equally flawed. Drow society is hateful in general, women are still in power.



This was changed for 5e. And nevertheless, not being allowed a job that was considered lower than the elite they belong to is hardly a sign of 1950-style woman-hating.



Wrong. Wizards research spells. That's it. Lolth's clergy is the one in charge of holding and regulating the knowledge.

It's not because wizard spells are fueled by intelligence that they're a society's only scholars.



Drow men don't control two thirds of the type of powers in society. They don't control anything.

As for the reason "why are they not in charge?" Because Lolth.



One, they don't limit themselves to it.

Two, even if they did, clerical magic literally depends on the favor of the demon goddess who owns the drow society.



Many drow women are warriors. Or assassins. Or other type of useful House contributors.



Stats don't determine if you're a Cleric or not, Lolth do. But generally they occupy a role in the House lower than Priestesses, but still far superior than the one of any male.



Men are NOT favored, especially not instead of women.



Please stop repeating this.


Drow men are in no position of power. That's the whole thing about them.



You are mistaken in your understanding of the portrayal.



They do.



There are.



The one in charge of the wizard colleges are women. That Lolth disapprove of female wizards don't mean that the male wizards aren't under the female drow's heels.



There is.



Really? A whole society where men are inherently considered inferior and can be killed in impunity when women rule everything, and you think it's misogynist?
Zakna'fein was in a position of power as head weaons trainer for his house, despite being a heretic. Gromph Baenre was in a positiuon of power, enough so that he was able to adopt his daughter, Liriel, and kill her mother with no repercussions. Even Jarlaxle, with Bregan D'aerth, was able to carve out a position of wealth and influence. Just because there are people with more power than you does not mean you have no power.

As far as any woman being more valuable than any male, how much do you think a powerful Matron will value a cleric that can't cast even 1st level spells versus a skilled warrior or wizard with years of experience? If males are second class citizens treat them like it. Have fighter and wizard schools for women, for a start.

[Wub]

Huh. Guess they changed that.

Still, I get the impression that the drow were built with the 14-year-old in mind. Drow are pretty easy to co-opt into being 'mysterious, exotic, and dangerous ;D '. Also how 'drow society is strange and alien' + 'drow society is run by women' lets lazy writers instantly devolve into sexism.

Not saying that it can't be done well, 'cause I've seen some good stories out there, but there's an ease in which writers can misstep.

[Unoriginal]

Zakna'fein was in a position of power as head weaons trainer for his house, despite being a heretic. Gromph Baenre was in a positiuon of power, enough so that he was able to adopt his daughter, Liriel, and kill her mother with no repercussions. Even Jarlaxle, with Bregan D'aerth, was able to carve out a position of wealth and influence. Just because there are people with more power than you does not mean you have no power.

The first two were incredibly exceptional people and Jarlaxle is directly a) a chosen of Lolth (or at least is considered as such by the clergy) b) an outcast of drow society who is only tolerated because he still do valuable work for his House for free.

Captain America isn't an accurate representation of your average WWII veteran in the 2010's.



As far as any woman being more valuable than any male, how much do you think a powerful Matron will value a cleric that can't cast even 1st level spells

Such a Cleric doesn't exist.



versus a skilled warrior or wizard with years of experience?

As a tool, she would probably consider the woman as less useful. But it doesn't change that this woman will always have more rights, privilege, reward, and social standing than this (supposedly male) warrior.


If males are second class citizens treat them like it.

They ARE.


Have fighter and wizard schools for women, for a start.

There are.


Huh. Guess they changed that.

You could also have read their statblocks.



Still, I get the impression that the drow were built with the 14-year-old in mind. Drow are pretty easy to co-opt into being 'mysterious, exotic, and dangerous ;D '. Also how 'drow society is strange and alien' + 'drow society is run by women' lets lazy writers instantly devolve into sexism.

Drow society isn't supposed to be mysterious or exotic. It's supposed ot be dangerous, awful, and repugnant. The sexism showed up as soon as they established Lolth's personality, it's not "lazy writers lol".

[qube]

Look it's an intresting idea and all, but no. it's sexists in exaclty the way we thing. Why?




Females are seen as stronger, smarter, and more emotionally controlled. Males are primarily useful as unskilled labor and for breeding purposes. A male is still inferior even to a female drow of significantly lower status (Litterly misandrist!)
...
From a young age, males are taught not to look at the faces of drow females, or to speak to females unless bidden.
...
~~ (source: Menzoberranzan - City of Intrigue.pdf)

Also, the caste system of the Drow consists out of:
the 8 matron mothers of the 8 strongest houses (for a long time, thes was mostly a front for the matron mother of the 1st house having all the power)
the other 50 or so houses also were lead by a matron mother
beneith each matron mother were her daughters (ranked by age)
only THEN, came 3 males (the house wizard, the weaponmaster, and the patron)
then came the sons of the matron mother
under them, useful commoners that were adopted into a house (male & female)
under them, commoners without a house (male & female)
under them, non-drow (male & female)
under them, slaves (who were non-drow) (male & female)

The most powerful male of Menzoberranzan are Gromph Baenre (the archmage & headmaster of the school of wizardry) and Jarlaxle (commander of a very powerful mercenairy band). They have power - but they only have power because they are useful. A female drow with equal usefulness would be much more powerful, and unlike a male, she would still have status if she ever lost that usefulness.

[Unoriginal]

And Jaralaxle may be *of* Menzoberranzan, but he's not *in* Menzoberranzan. He's far away and him doing his mercenary business is only tolerated by the family because having enough status to make it happen despite the violation of the rules it is allows his House to show off, on top of him doing the jobs he's told to.

[LudicSavant]

So, it's hypothetically possible for the "skimpy clothing is a sign of station" thing to make sense. One could say that the skimpy clothing isn't for promiscuity, but for proudly displaying their fitness in the world of the underdark where things like food resources probably aren't exactly overabundant. A healthy physique could be thought to represent evidence of discipline, mettle, strength, and superiority as a society, not to mention evidence of one's own station. And we have some examples of the sort of skimpy clothing that is supposed to project power and station in some real world cultures. Even saying "I'm not protecting myself" can be a power statement, akin to how high heels historically used to be for noble males and made the statement "I have a horse, I don't need to walk."

HOWEVER, there's a massive difference between that kind of dress and dressing like a stripper (where the goal is to be objectified, instead of aggrandized), and I thus feel many drow portrayals would still be inappropriate as a result. (This difference is why, for instance, Conan or Khal Drogo wouldn't generally be considered objectified). And of course they would still have to wear actual functional armor in combat.

The problem is that we aren't seeing much like this:
https://s8.postimg.cc/j5zs0x2s5/drow_by_jianjiagu-d64n0bo.jpg
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14178233326_b4d21b8c4c_c.jpg
(fanart)

as often as we're seeing stuff like this:
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104428.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104438.jpg
(D&D official art)

The latter kind of art doesn't really leave a lot of room for interpretation. It's clearly there for the benefit of the adolescent male gaze, rather than dressing to impress other women as well as underling men.

It's details like this that make many (though not all) portrayals of drow matriarchy unconvincing.

[qube]

As far as any woman being more valuable than any male, how much do you think a powerful Matron will value a cleric that can't cast even 1st level spells versus a skilled warrior or wizard with years of experience?Do note that the question you pose doesn't adress ones rights/power - but adresses ones usefulness. This is the historical equivalence of your question:


how much do you think a plantation owner will value a white boy versus a strong black slave?

He will probbbaly rather have that slave, then a white boy ... or even a strong pack animal.

... but that white boy - that female drow - ranks higher on the ranking of power. That priestess of Lloth? She can litterly on a whim decide the male warrior is guilty of of something, and kill him on the spot*.

((* The only thing that can save a male from this faith is if he has connections with a house - in which case, the priestess will need to make sure she doesn't anger the wrong house ... which, oh yeah, is lead by women. ))

[Unoriginal]

So, it's hypothetically possible for the "skimpy clothing is a sign of station" thing to make sense. One could say that the skimpy clothing isn't for promiscuity, but for proudly displaying their fitness in the world of the underdark where things like food resources probably aren't exactly overabundant. A healthy physique could be thought to represent evidence of discipline, mettle, strength, and superiority as a society, not to mention evidence of one's own station. And we have some examples of the sort of skimpy clothing that is supposed to project power and station in some real world cultures. Even saying "I'm not protecting myself" can be a power statement, akin to how high heels historically used to be for noble males and made the statement "I have a horse, I don't need to walk."

HOWEVER, there's a massive difference between that kind of dress and dressing like a stripper (where the goal is to be objectified, instead of aggrandized), and I thus feel many drow portrayals would still be inappropriate as a result. (This difference is why, for instance, Conan or Khal Drogo wouldn't generally be considered objectified). And of course they would still have to wear actual functional armor in combat.

[...]

The latter kind of art doesn't really leave a lot of room for interpretation. It's clearly there for the benefit of the adolescent male gaze, rather than dressing to impress.

5e art for Matron Mother in her out-of-armor outfit:

https://www.tribality.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-09-at-22.45.28.jpg

Yes, the "skimpy BDSM costumes" were for male gaze. But 5e had made a conscious effort to avoid this trope.


Do note that the question you pose doesn't adress ones rights/power - but adresses ones usefulness. This is the historical equivalence of your question:


how much do you think a plantation owner will value a white boy versus a strong black slave?

He will probbbaly rather have that slave, then a white boy ... or even a strong pack animal.

... but that white boy - that female drow - ranks higher on the ranking of power. That priestess of Lloth? She can litterly on a whim decide the male warrior is guilty of of something, and kill him on the spot*.

((* The only thing that can save a male from this faith is if he has connections with a house - in which case, the priestess will need to make sure she doesn't anger the wrong house ... which, oh yeah, is lead by women. ))

This too.

[hamishspence]

5e art for Matron Mother in her out-of-armor outfit:

https://www.tribality.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-09-at-22.45.28.jpg


Interestingly, that's recycled 3e art (Aspect of Lolth: Envoy - from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits).

[LudicSavant]

5e art for Matron Mother in her out-of-armor outfit:

https://www.tribality.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-09-at-22.45.28.jpg

Yes, the "skimpy BDSM costumes" were for male gaze. But 5e had made a conscious effort to avoid this trope.

Isn't that picture from 3e?

Here's one that AFAIK is 5e original art:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-s_xqecbhgQs/VZf0fgDJMkI/AAAAAAAAEi4/WYJ_y5soDfg/s1600/242riseofthe.jpg
Edit: I'm mistaken, looks like that one is originally from 4e.

In the Monster Manual, we don't even see a female drow in the "drow" entry. But we do see this female drider in ridiculous "armor." That's what we have to go on.

https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/images/drider.jpg

[Wub]

Drow society isn't supposed to be mysterious or exotic. It's supposed ot be dangerous, awful, and repugnant. The sexism showed up as soon as they established Lolth's personality, it's not "lazy writers lol".

'drow society is dangerous, awful, and repugnant' + 'drow society is run by women'

Some might go so far as to say that a society run by women is scary. It's a simple logical leap that, without immense care and a certain amount of mental gymnastics, will make drow society sexist against women.

[Windwaert]

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104438.jpg
(D&D official art)

The latter kind of art doesn't really leave a lot of room for interpretation. It's clearly there for the benefit of the adolescent male gaze, rather than dressing to impress.

Haha, this male gaze is not convinced. It looks an awful lot like "enhancement" spells were used: plastic surgery :smallconfused:?

I don't think practical armor design was ever a strong point of DnD. Calling for dressing modestly doesn't sound very progressive to me. Also, to suggest that male players are lured into the game by some dump drawings, I find that kinda insulting.

[RedMage125]

Zakna'fein was in a position of power as head weaons trainer for his house, despite being a heretic. Gromph Baenre was in a positiuon of power, enough so that he was able to adopt his daughter, Liriel, and kill her mother with no repercussions. Even Jarlaxle, with Bregan D'aerth, was able to carve out a position of wealth and influence. Just because there are people with more power than you does not mean you have no power.

As far as any woman being more valuable than any male, how much do you think a powerful Matron will value a cleric that can't cast even 1st level spells versus a skilled warrior or wizard with years of experience? If males are second class citizens treat them like it. Have fighter and wizard schools for women, for a start.

Unoriginal is mostly correct. But he's leaving out or oversimplifying the significance of nobility and rank.

Commoners are generally lower ranked than nobles, regardless of gender. A noble male ranks above a commoner female. But that commoner female ranks above almost all commoner males. Among nobles, House Rank is still significant, but males usually defer to other noble females.

In Dissolution, we see that brothels operate with very poor lowborn female drow and disfavored (read as: lost all powers) highborn female drow as prostitutes that wealthy male drow patrons use for pleasure. The privilege of dominating a female drow is very taboo and exciting to them. On that note, Phaeraun is aberrant in the extreme for a male drow. He has a sense of humor, for one, and he runs VERY close to the border of disrespect to the females. So much so that the other females of the group are astonished that he has not been put in his place long before.

Zak was in a position of "power" only insomuch as people knew that Malice liked him in her bedchamber and people didn't want to piss HER off. Gromph Baenre was either the son or older brother of the Matron of the MOST POWERFUL HOUSE IN THE CITY. Gromph is probably the most powerful male in Menzoberanzan's history. And his daughter's mother was a commoner, and he STILL made her death happen quietly.

Jarlaxle literally is the quintessential example of utilitarianism. He is not officially a part of any noble House, which SHOULD make him a house excoriate with little to no social standing. But he's skilled, resourceful, and, above all, he has made himself useful to everyone in the whole city. His mercenary company will take anyone's money, but will not betray the interests of the city as a whole. And they are known for being skilled and professional. So technically, he has no rank, authority or power, but because he reserves the right to NOT take contracts if he's offended, he's put himself into a position of "outsider with a resource I want" vis a vis the Matron Mothers.

But again, there are MANY female fighters, and have been in the books. They are usually ranking officers over male sergeants. You don't see MANY female wizards, because drow society views arcane magic as "inferior" to the gifts of Lolth. Gaining the favor of Lolth can make one's spells more powerful and hinder one's opponents.

[Unoriginal]

Isn't that picture from 3e? .

It's in the Mordenkainen's.



Here's one that AFAIK is 5e original art:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-s_xqecbhgQs/VZf0fgDJMkI/AAAAAAAAEi4/WYJ_y5soDfg/s1600/242riseofthe.jpg.

I don't think that's 5e art. Could be wrong.



And while not all of it is like that, it doesn't change that it's totally still a thing that is happening.

Any example?

Also, just to say, but metatextual sexism through sexualized artworks isn't the same as sexism in the text, which is what OP was debating.

Of course some would debate back and forth if oversexualized outfits are inherently sexist or if it's sexist to assume women dressing in oversexualized way is sexist when they may do it on their own agency... but I'm pretty sure that'd be against the forum rules to have this debate.

[LudicSavant]

Calling for dressing modestly doesn't sound very progressive to me.

What are you talking about? That's about the opposite of what I called for. I explicitly gave examples of skimpy clothes that I would find appropriate to the narrative concept.


It's in the Mordenkainen's.

Yes, but it's reprinted art from 3e, as two people have told you now.


I don't think that's 5e art. Could be wrong.

Edit: Seems I was mistaken, it's originally from 4e

[Wub]

I'd say there's a strong distinction between dressing sexy and looking like Princess Lea on Jabba's pleasure-barge.

[Windwaert]

What are you talking about? That's about the opposite of what I called for. I explicitly gave examples of skimpy clothes that I would find appropriate to the narrative concept.


Sorry, I should've clarified: It was not a direct response to you (I quoted you for the image only). It was in response to the observation that there seems to be a general trend towards such negativity, as exemplified by what others have noted:



Yes, the "skimpy BDSM costumes" were for male gaze. But 5e had made a conscious effort to avoid this trope.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, but it's reprinted art from 3e, as two people have told you now.

Not denying that.



It's from 5e.

I've not seen it in any book. Couldn't find any info that "Rise of the Underdark" campaign, either, do you have any?

[LudicSavant]

Sorry, I should've clarified: It was not a direct response to you. It was in response to the observation that there seems to be a general trend towards such negativity, as exemplified by what others have noted:

Oh, I see. Thank you for clarifying. :smallsmile:


I've not seen it in any book. Couldn't find any info that "Rise of the Underdark" campaign, either, do you have any?

I'm mistaken, it's from 4e.

[The Jack]

I agree with the notion that drow society was probably adolescent family in the begining, but i think, demon god permiting, it does work.

People tend to overstate historic sexism. in fuedalism, Noble men would train for war, because profeciency in war was the reason for their stature,and noble ladies would help manage the house, often including the very important financial stuff. They were kept away from war, at most warlike they would train to defend homes. Importantly, marraige was a useful diplomatic tool.

But, for peasants, they mostly equally worked the field, you shouldnt turn away good hands for that kind of work, so genders were more equal among commoners.

So, a big question to ask is "are all elves noble" because they are a slave taking race. As elves they're also reproductively slow, so are frontline women such a problem?

In the games of politics, the non-threats are safer. I also imagine you wouldnt be safe in killing another drow woman's favoured man, just as it would be a violation of property to kill someone's slave.


The only thing that strikes me as very off about drow is that wizarding is a male thing. Dont delegate the path to godhood to your second class citizens.

[Unoriginal]

Dont delegate the path to godhood to your second class citizens.

Wizardry is not "the path to godhood" in 5e.

[The Jack]

Mechanically, not any more than the other classes that offer wish and true polymorph

But thematically, you get those spells through your own arcane power, irrespective of the whims of patrons. It's not something to give to second class citizens.

[LudicSavant]

I don't think practical armor design was ever a strong point of DnD. Calling for dressing modestly doesn't sound very progressive to me. Also, to suggest that male players are lured into the game by some dump drawings, I find that kinda insulting.

Yeah, I think demure or Victorian dresses would be just as inappropriate for what we're told drow culture is supposed to be as the stripperific getups.

I'll also note that I'm not interested in coming at this from any political angle; for me it's just an issue of fluff quality. A character's design says something about the character, the world they're from, their motivations, etc. What possible motivation does the MM5e Drider have for having a V-shaped midriff cutout in their armor? Or the cleavage window of the Council of Spiders mage's armor? It makes even less sense than the bikinis of past editions, because at least we're not told that those are supposed to be armor.

They could even have the drow dress sexy. They just should do so in a way that's in character and seems like something a matriarchy might actually do.

[druid91]

For those saying Wizardry isn't a path to power in Drow Society... The Conclave of Sshamath (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sshamath) would like to have a word with you.

Drow society is not a Monolith and not every Drow city is Menzobaranzan.

[Snails]

Obviously, the Drow were in no small part a smashing together a "Mirror, Mirror" view of our world and crude adolescent male fantasies/fears.

But I do not think Gary ever thought of all Drow as being any certain way. Part of the point was this race has relations with various archdemons and minor gods as alliances of convenience to gain more power, and thus every Drow city could be very very different depending on which archdemon(s) held the most power.

Q1 was not really Gary's work, even if his name was on module. But that specific example of the Drow drew so much attention that it drowned out other interesting possibilities hinted at in the original material.

[Windwaert]

What possible motivation does the MM5e Drider have for having a V-shaped midriff cutout in their armor?

Wow, when I first saw that image posted here, I did not even notice the midriff cutout! I assumed it was covered by leather or cloth, because that would make more sense... If they wanted to show her midriff, they could've shown damaged armor, like the doomguy on the DOOM'93 cover.

I agree, some of these armor designs are laughably stupid. Again, I don't expect much realism, but I would've preferred practical and believable designs.

[OldTrees1]

Heh this is a bit funny. I have read R A Salvatore's various series following two atypical hypothetical Chosen of Lolth (Drizzt and Jarlaxle) so I have a decent understanding of the roles the Drow played in those works.

Female Drow of Noble Houses did not have jobs. They were Rulers and I do think you have to consider each House as a State onto itself with a Matron/Queen and her Daughter/Duchesses. As training to be Rulers they were instructed about Lolth by fellow Noble Females, they learned about combat via the house weapon master, and were expected to hone a source of personal power. Typically that source was communion and favor with the Demon/Goddess that controlled their entire society, however there are alternatives like the wizards, psions, and even some non casters (one would presume).

Male Drow of Noble Houses were assigned jobs by the Matron. They would learn what mother/matron/queen commanded. They would do what mother/matron/queen commanded. And they would be executed if they displeased Lolth's misandrist perspective.

Where are most of the intellectual female noble drow? They are priestess/duchesses in their mother's kingdom.
Where are most of the physically fit female noble drow? They are priestess/duchesses in their mother's kingdom.
Where are most of the wise female noble drow? They are priestess/duchesses in their mother's kingdom.
Where are most of the exemplary male noble drow? Dead.
Where are the rest of the exemplary male noble drow? They are who & what their mother/matron/queen commanded them to be and when & where she commanded them to be. They and the commoners are under the command of their sisters/priestesses/duchesses. The rulers commanded the forces of power, not the males that comprised a part of those forces.

[LudicSavant]

Wow, when I first saw that image posted here, I did not even notice the midriff cutout! I assumed it was covered by leather or cloth, because that would make more sense... If they wanted to show her midriff, they could've shown damaged armor, like the doomguy on the DOOM'93 cover.

I agree, some of these armor designs are laughably stupid. Again, I don't expect much realism, but I would've preferred practical and believable designs.

Pretty much.

[Wub]

But I do not think Gary ever thought of all Drow as being any certain way. Part of the point was this race has relations with various archdemons and minor gods as alliances of convenience to gain more power, and thus every Drow city could be very very different depending on which archdemon(s) held the most power.

I feel kinda gypped that this isn't a thing. It's an interesting angle.

[JackPhoenix]

I feel kinda gypped that this isn't a thing. It's an interesting angle.

Eberron drow have 3 distinct cultures (and no matriarchy). They still tend to be pretty stripperific, but at least they have the excuse of living in the equivalent of Africa (or around volcanos, for Sulatar).

And scorpions > spiders.

[Wub]

xD

I'm used to spiders. Scorpions...eh...I'd rather not mess with.

I only vaguely remember that one, but weren't they also less, ah, comedically evil than their Underdark version?

(I'm missing my 3.5 books on Ebberon and Underdark, so... :| )

[JackPhoenix]

Yep. Vulkoorim aren't really evil, but they are territorial and (generally) xenophobic. They are tribal, some tribes are more tolerant to outsiders, and worship a variety of totemic spirits. They are the most well-known drow culture. Sulatar are more isolationalist, and follow a faith that preaches that the world will end in flames, and only the chosen (i.e. themselves) will survive and ascend to "godhood?". They are the most advanced drow culture and hate others for trying to steal their stuff. And Umbragen are the only ones that live in the underground, but are most likely to get along with other races if they meet, if only because they need help against their enemies. They've made a deal with a mysterious entity named Umbra to survive the endless war about Daelkyr and their servants (mind flayers, beholders, all kind of aberrations). It's unclear what exactly Umbra is, it may be one of Eberron's big bad fiendish Overlords, but it doesn't sound so actively malevolent, so who knows.

There's no Lolth, drow were created by ancient giants as slaves and soldiers against their rebelling elven relatives. Vulkoorim eventually rebelled too, Sulatar stayed loyal to their fire giant masters, and Umbragen fled underground when the giant empire was destroyed by dragons.

It has been noted that while these 3 cultures are the most well known, Xen'drik is barely explored, and there could be other different drow cultures.

[druid91]

So, actually going through the 'Notable Drow Cities.' Slightly less than half actually conform to the 'Female Dominated Priest Class runs everything and the Menfolk Obey or Die.' stereotype of drow.

Menzo, Ched Nasad, and Maerimydra. Menzo is obvious, Ched Nasad is made up of Menzo's outcasts. Maerimydra is just generic for no apparent reason.

Of the remainder you have Sshamath, which is ruled by a council of male wizards.

You have Sschindylryn, which is ruled by Male Merchants because the Priestess's couldn't convince anyone to fight for them and so basically culled themselves out of the city with their infighting.

You have Chaulssin, which is full of Vhaeraunite's who despise Lolth and half Dragons.

And You have Eryndlyn, which, while it has Lolth worshipers is split between them, Vhaeraun, and Ghaunadaur fairly evenly.

So no. Drow society isn't even MOSTLY made up of women who run everything and kill all males who disagree.

[qube]

In the Monster Manual, we don't even see a female drow in the "drow" entry. But we do see this female drider in ridiculous "armor." That's what we have to go on.

https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/images/drider.jpgMeh, as far as ridiculous armor goes, that one's quite well. Yeah, sure, the bellybutton is visible - but sleaveless scale male is historical (http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/vechten2004martin.jpg). Likewise, the full-armored arms with clawed hands can quite well double for variations of rapier/buckler or rapier/dagger fighting.

(what is ridiculous, however, is that driders are larger then their usual expected quarries. And scale armor provides great protection against horizontal attacks, and attacks commnig from above ... but is quite poor to halt strikes from below - as those follow the 'gabs' in the scales)


The only thing that strikes me as very off about drow is that wizarding is a male thing. Dont delegate the path to godhood to your second class citizens.
...
Mechanically, not any more than the other classes that offer wish and true polymorphThat's not the path to godhood - but a path to power/strength.

It's not because its a matriarchy, that Matron mothers don't their serves to be strong.

[LudicSavant]

sleaveless scale male is historical (http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/vechten2004martin.jpg)

Nobody said that there was a problem with the lack of sleeves, though? :smallconfused:


(what is ridiculous, however, is that driders are larger then their usual expected quarries. And scale armor provides great protection against horizontal attacks, and attacks commnig from above ... but is quite poor to halt strikes from below - as those follow the 'gabs' in the scales)

Yeah. That's the problem: that drider isn't acting with any apparent in-character consideration, and therefore it's a weak character design.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So, actually going through the 'Notable Drow Cities.' Slightly less than half actually conform to the 'Female Dominated Priest Class runs everything and the Menfolk Obey or Die.' stereotype of drow.

Menzo, Ched Nasad, and Maerimydra. Menzo is obvious, Ched Nasad is made up of Menzo's outcasts. Maerimydra is just generic for no apparent reason.

Of the remainder you have Sshamath, which is ruled by a council of male wizards.

You have Sschindylryn, which is ruled by Male Merchants because the Priestess's couldn't convince anyone to fight for them and so basically culled themselves out of the city with their infighting.

You have Chaulssin, which is full of Vhaeraunite's who despise Lolth and half Dragons.

And You have Eryndlyn, which, while it has Lolth worshipers is split between them, Vhaeraun, and Ghaunadaur fairly evenly.

So no. Drow society isn't even MOSTLY made up of women who run everything and kill all males who disagree.

The thing about "notable" cities is they'd have something that sets them apart from the norm, or were part of some major event or novel. Secondly a lot of those cities only escaped Lolith's domination recently around the period she was silent and not granting spells. Sshamath being a notable exception. Also Sshamath is ruled by a council of wizards who are mostly male, they're are in fact female drow on the council.

Lolith's silence and the events shortly before the spell-plague greatly diminished her influence. Also the general chaos of the spell-plague and the second sundering didn't do her any favors. Several of those cities were destroyed and rebuilt during that time, hell I think Ched Nasad's been destroyed and rebuilt twice.
If you went back to the time and materials printed during 3rd edition Sshamath was pretty much the only major Drow city outside her influence.

[The Jack]

A giant spider wouldnt be able to move effectivly, much less wall xlimb thanks to stuff like the square root law. (Bugs dont work big, their weight increases faster than their strength and their structure takes advantage of lightness) so an unarmoured drow half aint too bad in the context ( its magic, dont worry bout it.

[qube]

Nobody said that there was a problem with the lack of sleeves, though? :smallconfused: :smallconfused: you didn't specify anything


But we do see this female drider in ridiculous "armor"

so I looked at the design a whole. And especially considering the existance of chainmail bikini's, that armor isn't that bad. But in the end, it's all estetics. the drider doesn't benefit at all from it (AC 19 natural armor). From a character design perspective, I think it's more that the drider still clings to her drow side (armor, crown,...) dispite being cursed with the transformation.

[Unoriginal]

Also it should be noted that the " the cleavage window chainmail" the drow mage is wearing is not counted as actual armor by the game (statblock treats the Drow Mage as wearing no armor). So if it looks ineffective as protection... it's because it is.

Apparently that mage just likes metal with her mage robes. Or it's a watered-down, ineffectual version of what a priestress would wear, given that those in the high-but-not-highest ranks often imitate the fashion of the highest-ranking ones.


On the subject of Lolth, 5e has been a bit of a mixed bag in term of how well she's doing. The Mordenkainen's is pretty clear that most cities that don't conform to her doctrine are wiped out, and her Out of the Abyss schemes were at least partially successful. In any case it's established she's one of the most powerful Demon Princes and being a true goddess doesn't hurt either. She's in fact so powerful she can empower a priestesses enough to stand toe-to-toe with a Demon Lord or Archdevil.

[Wub]

Ah, so they do exist, they're just minor factions.

>_>

Not the most interesting thing for political intrigue, having one dude come out on top. Feels like I missed the party.

[LudicSavant]

:smallconfused: you didn't specify anything

You might have missed it, but I actually did specify:


What possible motivation does the MM5e Drider have for having a V-shaped midriff cutout in their armor?

So did another poster, too:


Wow, when I first saw that image posted here, I did not even notice the midriff cutout! I assumed it was covered by leather or cloth, because that would make more sense... If they wanted to show her midriff, they could've shown damaged armor, like the doomguy on the DOOM'93 cover.

I agree, some of these armor designs are laughably stupid.

[ProseBeforeHos]

You guys are reading far too much into this. The drow are simply "Bizzaro world elves" at their core.

Where do eves normally live? Forest. So we'll have the drow live in caves underground.

Most fantasy kingdoms are patriarchal. So we'll have the drow be a strictly matriarchal society.

Elves are usually "goodly" (to a degree). So we'll make the drow utterly wicked.

Etc. etc. etc.

It's true there are 'problems' with the setup of drow society e.g. would the females really allow the males to have sole control over the domain of wizardry, the one force arguably more powerful than clerical magic?

However... all of the DnD universe is littered with such issue, often much more egregious than this. And as Unoriginal rightly points out, if there's any aspect of the "default" Drow setup you don't like it's your game! You are free to change anything as you wish (look at what Ebberon did with the drow, for example).

[Wub]

I hear that a lot when arguing video games.

Lessee here:

"If it's broken, fix it!"
We're currently trying to figure out if drow society is or isn't broken, and how so.

"Reading far too much into it."
I get that whenever I try to pull apart a story. It kills me to hear that dialogue-ending bogus.

"There's worse stuff out there."
Yes. Yes there is. But our current focus is drow society, please don't sidetrack things.

And point still stands: the evil society being the matriarchal society makes matriarchal societies look evil. Enough people get that vibe from the lore that it should be addressed in some manner.
I find subverting tropes to be a good way to counteract it, but it's a bit of an uphill climb.

[LudicSavant]

I hear that a lot when arguing video games.

Lessee here:

"If it's broken, fix it!"
We're currently trying to figure out if drow society is or isn't broken, and how so.

"Reading far too much into it."
I get that whenever I try to pull apart a story. It kills me to hear that dialogue-ending bogus.

"There's worse stuff out there."
Yes. Yes there is. But our current focus is drow society, please don't sidetrack things.

And point still stands: the evil society being the matriarchal society makes matriarchal societies look evil. Enough people get that vibe from the lore that it should be addressed in some manner.
I find subverting tropes to be a good way to counteract it, but it's a bit of an uphill climb.

Wub hit the nail on the head. To add to what he said:

"If it's broken, fix it!"
The first step of fixing is diagnosis.

"There's worse stuff out there"
The trouble with whataboutism (yes, that's a word) is that pointing out that there's a problem elsewhere doesn't address the issue at hand.

[Wub]

Also, fridge thought, there should be elven chippendales walking around the Underdark streets. And maybe have high-ranking male soldiers wearing ceremonial gladiator-style armor that is minimal to nonexistent around the torso/chest. If drow society objectifies men, shouldn't they do it properly?

[Keltest]

Also, fridge thought, there should be elven chippendales walking around the Underdark streets. And maybe have high-ranking male soldiers wearing ceremonial gladiator-style armor that is minimal to nonexistent around the torso/chest. If drow society objectifies men, shouldn't they do it properly?

Drow live in almost absolute blackness. More likely they would have pieces with decorative Faerie Fire or interesting heat patterns.

[Wub]

They're not blind, dude. Well-defined abs would definitely get shown off.

[LudicSavant]

Drow live in almost absolute blackness. More likely they would have pieces with decorative Faerie Fire or interesting heat patterns.

Interesting notion; I could totally see the drow using luminous elements in their fashion.

One of my drow cultures included the following traits regarding male aesthetics:



- Women are less likely to resort to forms of aesthetics that take a great deal of time to apply. By contrast, men are expected to be more vain, and you might see things like men dressing up in elaborate beads, body paint, and Jojo poses (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&biw=1920&bih=919&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=Q-dBWuDbHYP0mAHf9pSQBw&q=jojo+poses&oq=jojo+poses&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.11355647.11359485.0.11359795.17.15.0.0. 0.0.308.1641.0j11j0j1.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..6.3.555...0i13k1.0.BVYuDlCAENQ#imgrc=zb5olD0fn nAHRM:) to attract a lady's attention... kinda like the fabulous men of the Wodaabe (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&biw=1920&bih=919&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=-xZCWu75FIXnmAH7wb_oDQ&q=wodaabe&oq=wodaabe&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.20617.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c ..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.1Vgs7OuA0Ro) in that respect. Speaking of which, something like the wife-stealing festival (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3149684/The-Wodaabe-wife-stealing-festival-Stunning-images-world-s-vainest-tribe-men-dress-s-women-women-husbands-please.html) could fit right in (despite what the name might make some assume, the women hold most of the power in what is essentially a male beauty contest judged by women, used to hook up with eligible bachelors).

https://userscontent2.emaze.com/images/a211e2e9-4c72-4ba8-9ea4-366cb01dbca4/4b9154a2088aca0d4b33d56906294bc4.jpg

The poster RaygunGoth added this example:


I'll ask you to note that these guys aren't cosplayers, or putting on a show.

https://orig00.deviantart.net/3613/f/2017/360/6/c/eac4caaf2b126eb3ce98bdfa96ac30e5_by_mr_author-dbxy9n7.jpg

[Keltest]

They're not blind, dude. Well-defined abs would definitely get shown off.

Of course they aren't literally, but most drow use almost exclusively infravision, and using enough illumination to make sure spectators can actually see the gladiators in normal light would quite probably blind the poor gladiators. Even candlelight is described as being somewhat uncomfortable for most drow, though not actually debilitating.

Hence faerie fire and heat patterns. Its how they decorate everything else, at least in Menzo.

[Wub]

Not literal gladiators, I mean male dress-armor having that highly-armored-except-where-it-counts look.

*edit: think chain bikini, but for dudes.

[Gryndle]

And point still stands: the evil society being the matriarchal society makes matriarchal societies look evil. .

No it really does not. Anyone looking at the tragic miscarriage of writing that is Menzo-type drow matriarchy and drawing ANY conclusions about ANY other type of matriarchal society is either flat out looking for something to fight about, or way WAY to involved in the game and should take a break.

Its poorly written make-believe. Leave it at that. trying to make it into a societal issue is just a path to heartburn

[qube]

It's true there are 'problems' with the setup of drow society e.g. would the females really allow the males to have sole control over the domain of wizardry, the one force arguably more powerful than clerical magic?Why not? to repeat myself, Menzoberranzan, City of Intrigue notes


From a young age, males are taught not to look at the faces of drow females, or to speak to females unless bidden.

So, ask yourself this: who is stronger, the lion or the lion tamer? Who is stronger, the 50 slaves or the 5 people owning the building?


Drow live in almost absolute blackness. More likely they would have pieces with decorative Faerie Fire or interesting heat patterns.They actually don't. If you read Salvatore's books, there's a suprizing amount of artifical light in Mezoberanzan. Don't forget - their darkvision, espeicially in the olden days, doesn't compare to normal vision.


"There's worse stuff out there."
Yes. Yes there is. But our current focus is drow society, please don't sidetrack things.

And point still stands: the evil society being the matriarchal society makes matriarchal societies look evil. Enough people get that vibe from the lore that it should be addressed in some manner.Cool. OK. Have these people read Salvatore's books, or are these people the kind that likes to make their uninformed oppinion heard?

If you ever read the trilogy of Drizz't origin, and the history of the drow, you'll quickly realise the problem ain't the matriarcy - the problem is the theocracy. Drow culture is a culture focused on pleasing the evil god of Chaos. They are caught in Lolth's web of deceit; trying to please the fickle deity, for failure equals the fall of their house.

[LudicSavant]

No it really does not. Anyone looking at the tragic miscarriage of writing that is Menzo-type drow matriarchy and drawing ANY conclusions about ANY other type of matriarchal society is either flat out looking for something to fight about, or way WAY to involved in the game and should take a break.

Its poorly written make-believe. Leave it at that. trying to make it into a societal issue is just a path to heartburn

I agree, insofar as that it is sufficient to say that it is poorly written without muddying the waters with hasty generalizations.

[djreynolds]

Can someone post the scene from Spinal Tap, where they confuse sexist with sexy?

[LudicSavant]

Can someone post the scene from Spinal Tap, where they confuse sexist with sexy?

This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Qn1uHlRIY

[djreynolds]

This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Qn1uHlRIY

Thank you, that's it. Now I need to watch it.

[Grytorm]

Just a few thoughts I've had. One, thermal gradient. As you get deeper the earth warms up which is a meaningful reason for skimpy outfits especially when combined with some cantrips or orisons to provide the drop women with lift. Two that marriage/mating and lineage are pretty important in interhouse politics. Drow women seek to have control of their partner's partnering and get a feather in their cap to partner with a rival's partner. Men, it's not like a scandal for them to have affairs but it can get in trouble. They can sleep with other races while it is considered taboo for the women. Three when you think about it drow women can in theory have quite a few children. Blushes.

Other things. Um depicting an evil matriarchy seems tricky especially with lazy writing where generic characters are male and the women are limited to priestesses.

Also also, phone dying. But I have had ideas for the roles of the godesses. And those hod dudes. Lloth is the dominant head dirty, with rulership and fertility stuff going on. The creepy dead goddess is Lloth's stillborn child and her priests are tasked with the care of the dead. The male warrior drow diety is for guard people and stuff. You know. Guarding things or something. In one city they tried to take over and got surpress do. In that city the merchandise male diety has come to prominence. Often they will try to be friendly and sometime set up manly sufferance leagues or whatever. Elestrae was at one point actually second only to Lloth being a guardian figure of sorts but as they acclimated to their deep exile she was partially forgotten but she still has a few temples. Especially on frontier scary areas. The slimy god, ghaundar or something. He is the one who leads spooky cults in backwards drow farming communities. Was an autocthonous diety partially adopted by drow.

[The Jack]

Ive largely thought that the drow were for a male power fantasy.

"Evil demon worshipping babes? I'll win them with goodness/civilise them/conquer them/let them walk all over me. "

i played a character who liked to sack settlements in a setting where slavery was normal, and gee was a drow settlement tempting.

[Unoriginal]

Ive largely thought that the drow were for a male power fantasy.

"Evil demon worshipping babes? I'll win them with goodness/civilise them/conquer them/let them walk all over me. "

i played a character who liked to sack settlements in a setting where slavery was normal, and gee was a drow settlement tempting.

It's D&D, everything is a power fantasy to some extent. Being super smart/strong/suave and becoming rich by hitting people can hardly NOT be a power fantasy.

Of course the thing is, in practice, you don't win the drow with goodness/civilise them/conquer them/let them walk all over you.

Now, I think we should make the distinction between a depiction being sexual, sexy, sexualized and sexist.

Are female drow presented in a sexual way, in 5e? Well, literally, yes. The highest ranking members are Matron Mothers, having sex with demons is one of the priestesses' duties, and one of the perks of the positions (as well as an additional way to gather power) is having powerful consorts.

That is sexual, in the sense that sexuality is an important part of their ethos. But still, it's not pushed in your face at all time either. It's just presented as a part of the state of affair.

Are female drow presented in a sexy way, aka having sex appeal, in 5e? Well, they are generally beautiful (by human beauty standards), agile women with relatively eternal youth and an not-found-in-human skin color, which from John Carter of Mars to Mass Effect has proven to be attractive to some people, and they have both power and a dominant attitude, which can also be considered sexually appealing by some.

Are female drow presented in a sexualized way, in 5e? In the past, yes, without hesitation. In 5e, even if they removed most of the skimpy outfits and toned down the rest, the drow still use whips and still have BDSM/dominatrix overtones. Even their tentacle rods can raise a few eyebrows. But it's counterbalanced by the facts those who need physical protections wear actual armors, that the priestesses aren't described as acting in a sensual way outside of the moments where it makes sense (ie with their partners) and the stay as slaves of the Drow in Out of the Abyss is completely devoid of any sexualized content or subtext, and so is the Mordenkainen's descriptions of their society.

So the last question would be: are female drow presented in a sexist way, in 5e? Honestly I would say no, overall. Female Drows aren't treated as less evil or less competent than any of the other D&D evil threats, but they also are not treated as if they're evil because they're women. It's pretty clear that Lolth's favoring women is a 100% arbitrary thing and that the male drows would act the same if the roles were exchanged.

[The Jack]

I dunno dawg. Drow society screams of radical contrarian bent. Like it was constructed by the most extreme feminist ever. They pick a female demon diety to rebel against a male god, they ensure with law that objectification only targets men. They live underground to escape patriarchal society, they exile members who lose their lower half , and judging by the outfits they probably enforce the roll of top during...

Everything about that says "rescue/conquer me" alignment permitting .( or just kill them for being monsterously antithetical to wholesome existence..)

Yeah, dnd is power fantasy, but drow make power fantasy a dangerous game.

I'm reminded of bahari from vtm. An entire belief structured from rejection of mainstream "patriarchal" vampire society. They do a lot of sexy things, but it kinda seems juvenile.

.

[Unoriginal]

They pick a female demon diety to rebel against a male god

Corellon isn't male.



They live underground to escape patriarchal society

Non-Dark Elf society isn't patriarchal.


they exile members who lose their lower half

They don't exile members *because* they lost their lower half.


I and judging by the outfits they probably enforce the roll of top during...

The outfits of previous editions?



Everything about that says "rescue/conquer me" alignment permitting .(or just kill them for being monsterously antithetical to wholesome existence..)

...I think that's one is a personal perception from you, The Jack.


Killing them has nothing to do with them being women. Drow who encounter PCs will 99% of the time try to to murder or enslave the PCs.

[druid91]

Corellon isn't male.



Non-Dark Elf society isn't patriarchal.



They don't exile members *because* they lost their lower half.



The outfits of previous editions?



...I think that's one is a personal perception from you, The Jack.


Killing them has nothing to do with them being women. Drow who encounter PCs will 99% of the time try to to murder or enslave the PCs.

Corellon is very explicitly male in the lore. The entire idea he wasn't is something cooked up only to make 5e more inclusive. I'm all for allowing certain liberties to be taken in new lore creation, but that was just a silly move on their part.

[Unoriginal]

Corellon is very explicitly male in the lore. The entire idea he wasn't is something cooked up only to make 5e more inclusive. I'm all for allowing certain liberties to be taken in new lore creation, but that was just a silly move on their part.

You are utterly wrong:

https://66.media.tumblr.com/80d25ac17b7baaadd4e098e1c9d380ac/tumblr_inline_p5o6wfJqsq1re5fde_500.jpg

This is from Deities and Demigods' first edition, published in 1980.

[druid91]

You are utterly wrong:

-snip-

This is from Deities and Demigods' first edition, published in 1980.

You mean the book that was published before Forgotten Realms even existed and so is utterly irrelevant to Correlon's lore within the forgotten realms?

[Unoriginal]

You mean the book that was published before Forgotten Realms even existed and so is utterly irrelevant to Correlon's lore within the forgotten realms?

Oh, so you mean that Forgotten Realms made Corellon a male after it was established they weren't?


I'm all for allowing certain liberties to be taken in new lore creation, but that was just a silly move on their part.


And why are you trying to imply past-editions-FR-lore is the subject of the conversation? We're talking about D&D 5e lore in full, which includes 5e FR lore.

[The Jack]

Also, is "he" not emphasized like that because powerful beibgs from other planes choose their genders at will but generally have preferences, and this dude with a masculine name is probably male more than 90% of the time, but enjoys the ability to shapechange enough that a lifetime as a female wouldnt phase him...


non-dark elf society isnt patriarchal
Ey if you run d&d as medieval ( or psudo medieval with a "western" frontier society, or use a renaissance or classical society) most societies are going to be patriarchal, only modernity or abundant magic would change that.

A society doesnt need to be mysoginist to be patriarchal.

[Unoriginal]

Also, is "he" not emphasized like that because powerful beibgs from other planes choose their genders at will but generally have preferences, and this dude with a masculine name is probably male more than 90% of the time, but enjoys the ability to shapechange enough that a lifetime as a female wouldnt phase him...

No, that is not the lore. Also "Corellon" isn't more masculine a name than "Aliénor".

Corellon is an ever-changing deity who doesn't have a preference.

And even if Corellon actually did have a preference, it doesn't change that their first appearance in 1980 clearly establish them as "alternatively male or female, both or neither", which makes saying "Corellon is very explicitly male in the lore. The entire idea he wasn't is something cooked up only to make 5e more inclusive" utterly wrong, and to say nothing of calling it "silly".



Ey if you run d&d as medieval ( or psudo medieval with a "western" frontier society, or use a renaissance or classical society) most societies are going to be patriarchal, only modernity or abundant magic would change that.

D&D is pseudo-medieval, but being a fantasy world where gender isn't much of an issue, no, most societies are not patriarchal. You're trying to cherry-pick the parts of our history that makes that status quo prevalent while ignoring the D&D default.



Somehow I get the impression this has stopped being about if the drow's protrayal is sexist or not.

[druid91]

Oh, so you mean that Forgotten Realms made Corellon a male after it was established they weren't?


I'm all for allowing certain liberties to be taken in new lore creation, but that was just a silly move on their part.


And why are you trying to imply FR lore as if it was the subject of the conversation? We're talking about D&D lore in full.

Because, we're very clearly talking about FR lore? Since they're the ones with a Menzobaranzan and a Matriarchal civilization of Drow?

Rather than say, Erelhei-Cinlu and the Vault of the Drow, who venerate the Demon-Queen Lolth who wasn't ever part of the Elven Pantheon, and aren't in any way Matriarchal which is what your source refers to and is Greyhawk.

The fact that they used the same names out of sheer laziness doesn't mean they aren't separate entities.

Ok. So it's taking lore from GREYHAWK and shoving it into FAERUN to make it more inclusive. Is that really all that much of a difference from just cooking it up wholesale?

[The Jack]

...I think that's one is a personal perception from you, The Jack.

i play a diverse lot of characters and dm interesting people. You shouldnt be playing rollplaying games if you cant disasociate characters from people.

I also run drow beyond a bunch of slavers. So in my games, no, the drow arent always trying to collar you.

[Unoriginal]

i play a diverse lot of characters and dm interesting people. You shouldnt be playing rollplaying games if you cant disasociate characters from people.

You were talking about how the players reacted to the tropes associated with the Drow, though, not the characters. Unless you meant that the Drow were in-story a male power fantasy, which they aren't.

In-story there are plenty of reasons why a character would want to enslave or kill the drow, mysoginist revenge being one of them, but that doesn't make the drow themselves male power fantasy.



I also run drow beyond a bunch of slavers. So in my games, no, the drow arent always trying to collar you.

Well sure it'd be dull if all drows had only one trait.

[The Jack]

D&D is pseudo-medieval, but being a fantasy world where gender isn't much of an issue, no, most societies are not patriarchal. You're trying to cherry-pick the parts of our history that makes that status quo prevalent while ignoring the D&D default.

.
Gender not being an issue is a removal of the human element. Thats fine if you want to run things, but i find conflict interesting and convincing social dynamics get me into the world. Where does it say gender is irrelevant, because most of the humanoids in the mm have male depictions attached, and player characters are exceptional.

Cherry picking history? Are you for real? Objectively the overwhelming majority of society during recorded history has fallen under patriarchal leadership. Objectively. The same is mostly true when looking at faith. So when you've got the drow being a near complete inversion of human norms and being depicted as chaotic evil, it would be narratively and thematically unusual to have the world's mainstream society not being near to the antithesis of drow society.

[qube]

You mean the book that was published before Forgotten Realms even existed and so is utterly irrelevant to Correlon's lore within the forgotten realms?The AD&D 1st Edition, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (1987), page 16 (only) notes that the elf partheon includes "Corellon Larethian (Ruler of All Elves)". They do not claim in any way or form that this god is in any way shape or form different then the Corellon Larethian that the players already know.

And interestingly, others are refered to as "Rillifane Rallathil (Chief God of Wild Elves)" and "Aerdrie Faenya (Goddess of Air and Weather)" - (coloring, mine) making Corellon the only elven diety not refered to with a distinct male or female title ...

Sorry druid, but all evidence seems to point that Unoriginal is right...

[JackPhoenix]

Cherry picking history? Are you for real? Objectively the overwhelming majority of society during recorded history has fallen under patriarchal leadership. Objectively. The same is mostly true when looking at faith. So when you've got the drow being a near complete inversion of human norms and being depicted as chaotic evil, it would be narratively and thematically unusual to have the world's mainstream society not being near to the antithesis of drow society.

And from what we know from archaeological finds, for the *actual* overwhelming majority of history when there hasn't been any records, human society was apparently matriarchal.

[The Jack]

Honestly, i wasnt concerned all that much with the ambiguity of the gender of the elf god. I imagine that drow would choose to depict the god as male, as they would vilify him.
I was also considering the human-centric outlook of d&d, where most ruling gods are probably male. Personally, most of my investment into d&d religion relevant to this topic comes from a hobgoblin, who was of course a self-justified LE warrior who did the good work of Nomog and salivated at the thought of ironically enslaving drow.

[The Jack]

And from what we know from archaeological finds, for the *actual* overwhelming majority of history when there hasn't been any records, human society was apparently matriarchal.

Well, as you're playing in recorded history, thats scarcely relevant to anyone not playing orcs, goblins,lizards or xvarts.

P.S: the conotations of such a notion are best avoided.

[Friv]

Cherry picking history? Are you for real? Objectively the overwhelming majority of society during recorded history has fallen under patriarchal leadership. Objectively. The same is mostly true when looking at faith. So when you've got the drow being a near complete inversion of human norms and being depicted as chaotic evil, it would be narratively and thematically unusual to have the world's mainstream society not being near to the antithesis of drow society.

Hey, The Jack! This is not actually quite right. Objectively, the overwhelming majority of imperial societies have been patriarchal. There are some good reasons for this - imperial societies tend to venerate force of arms and conquest, for obvious reasons, and also tend to put a strong social pressure on having lots of kids, in order to produce the armies they need for conquest. This makes it so that women end up pressured to stay at home and have kids, and men end up pressured to either farm or fight, and fighters end up largely in charge of society, and then things spiral.

In Europe and Asia, the presence of Rome and China as major imperial cultures generally led to the eradication or assimilation of the non-imperial cultures that surrounded them, many of which were previously either matriarchal, or complex in ways that we aren't used to today. In Africa and North America, a lot more diversity was kept (until, again, imperial forces showed up. Imperial societies are traditionally very good at subjugating non-imperial societies, because when one side venerates organized conquest and has a history of successful conquests and the other side doesn't, the fight does not go well.)

Now, more on-topic:

In a world in which magic is a real and powerful force, imperial cultures won't necessarily need to venerate physical prowess in the same way, and in a world in which magic provides medical safety through spells like Cure Wounds and Remove Disease, childbirth is much less dangerous and the pressure on women to focus on it exclusively goes on. In addition, familiarity with local magic becomes a much more powerful tool to use to resist invasion.

Sociologically, it makes sense for a D&D setting to evolve more varieties of imperial societies than just patriarchal ones, and to evolve more non-imperial societies capable of resisting imperial attack.

With all of that said, the main problem with the drow isn't that they're matriarchal, it's a traditional lack of other matriarchal groups in the various settings that they pop up in. That's easily fixed by just adding more diversity. (There's some weird race stuff in there too, with regards to cursing evil people by giving them dark skin that evokes the Curse of Ham in ways I'm personally kind of uncomfortable with, and colour-coding sentient beings so that the light-skinned elves are all pure and good and the dark-skinned elves are either violently tribal or super-evil, but that can be easily excised without removing Menzoberranzan as a cool location for adventures.)

[druid91]

The AD&D 1st Edition, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (1987), page 16 (only) notes that the elf partheon includes "Corellon Larethian (Ruler of All Elves)". They do not claim in any way or form that this god is in any way shape or form different then the Corellon Larethian that the players already know.

And interestingly, others are refered to as "Rillifane Rallathil (Chief God of Wild Elves)" and "Aerdrie Faenya (Goddess of Air and Weather)" - (coloring, mine) making Corellon the only elven diety not refered to with a distinct male or female title ...

Sorry druid, but all evidence seems to point that Unoriginal is right...

It also doesn't say it's the same god. And given later lore does note significant differences.... There's no reason to expect it is.

[qube]

It also doesn't say it's the same god. And given later lore does note significant differences.... There's no reason to expect it is.Except, "later lore" was a non factor to the person who bought the book in 1987. Not to mention - as you pointed out, later lore might retcon or alter characters.

Factually, the only Corellon Lathander that that player in 1987 knew, which "happen", aside from having the EXACT same name, also the EXACT SAME FUNCTION ... was the Corellon Lathander from the core rules.

Does that not strike you as odd - even to the point that it would have to be a deleberate ploy of the writers to confuse the people - to have a different god be that unspecified god Corellon Lathander?

Would you not agree that that guy with the book in 1987, would take a look at it, and consider Occams rasor: that if it were a different god, then it would have a different name, or be stated it was a different god then the one he knew; and the fact that this wans't mentioned at all, that this very much suggests we're talking about the same Correlon.

[Unoriginal]

Factually, the only Corellon Lathander

Ehm I think you meant Corellon Larethian.

[qube]

Ehm I think you meant Corellon Larethian.Yeah, my elvish is as rusty as a orc's pike ;)

[Asmotherion]

You're way overthinking it.

If Patriarchies were analogus to medieval stereotypes, there would only be 4 backrounds for Medieval-like societies avalable to female PCs: Midwife (traveling from town to town to deliver babies), Courtesan (traveling with the court), Noble (Diplomatic missions), Prostitute (Travel from one Bordelo to an other). Perhaps even a Performer, but that was more rare. Other women of age to adventure were either Married (and usually constantly pregnant) or carrying for their 2-5 children, wile at the same time moonlighting at their husbands buisness (if he had one) or working for extra money for a land owner at some kitchen. It was not an easy time to be a woman back then.

So let's agree that too much accuracy is not necceserally a good thing.

[The Jack]

You're way overthinking it.
*laughable characterisation*


Women rarely had it so bad historically. Education was available to wealthy women, and career choices weren't much more limited than men.
Historians tend to make the past look worse so the present seems better.

Besides, other than fighter and monk, there'd realistically be very few bars to stop women from adventurer classes. Rare person has a gift for magic? The society that cuts it's precious mage numbers in half wouldnt survive long.

Which...
In the context of elves, gender should be far less important, theyre less dimorphic, live a long time and have more access to magical conveniences. i think drow are strange for doubling down on gender differences.

[Sigreid]

Haven't read everything but the core problem of the OP seems to be defining power as personal power the way it is defined for player characters when on a societal level that kind of power is meaningless. In a society, the power greatest warrior, general or scientist is nothing compared to the power of the senator, or head of a bureaucracy. The warriors and generals may be men, the governing body that decides when to go to war is women. The mightiest wizard may be a man, his access to components is controlled by women. The merchant at the counter may be a man, the shop is owned by a woman.

Add to that that drow males that get "uppity" tend to find themselves the focus of the ire of the spider goddess and transformed into horrible monstrosities and some men may have the appearance of power, but it is all at the whim of a more powerful woman.

[LudicSavant]

You're way overthinking it.

If Patriarchies were analogus to medieval stereotypes, there would only be 4 backrounds for Medieval-like societies avalable to female PCs: Midwife (traveling from town to town to deliver babies), Courtesan (traveling with the court), Noble (Diplomatic missions), Prostitute (Travel from one Bordelo to an other). Perhaps even a Performer, but that was more rare. Other women of age to adventure were either Married (and usually constantly pregnant) or carrying for their 2-5 children, wile at the same time moonlighting at their husbands buisness (if he had one) or working for extra money for a land owner at some kitchen. It was not an easy time to be a woman back then.

So let's agree that too much accuracy is not necceserally a good thing.

The real medieval world had not one culture but a great many, and these cultures often had very different ideas about gender roles from each other. Many of which decidedly do not fit with your description here. Honestly this comes off as a misinformed caricature of medieval history.

Heck, while they certainly weren't the norm, there were even female-focused knightly orders.

[Asmotherion]

The real medieval world had not one culture but a great many, and these cultures often had very different ideas about gender roles from each other. Many of which decidedly do not fit with your description here. Honestly this comes off as a misinformed caricature of medieval history.

Heck, while they certainly weren't the norm, there were even female-focused knightly orders.

You say "many", but I reply, "how many?". Their existance is a vast minority to a very existing fact about Patriarchical Societies in the Medieval times (aka what I was specifically talking about).

I was not including in this non-patriarchical systems.

[Kish]

There is a huge, huge difference between "women are expected to be religious" and "women are priests."

No conventionally sexist society has had the latter or even sniffed at the concept of "the clergy is closed to men." Ever.

[The Jack]

You say "many", but I reply, "how many?". Their existance is a vast minority to a very existing fact about Patriarchical Societies in the Medieval times (aka what I was specifically talking about).

I was not including in this non-patriarchical systems.

You're still way of base. medieval Patriarchy was largely pragmatic and not at all some monolithic oppression tool that had women breeding in the stables.

Women could run estates, stores, factories, farms. They just couldnt get high in clergical hierachy and weren't sent into war. Thats big, but it isnt opressive to common women.

Drow (lets stay on topic) are actively suppresive

[LudicSavant]

You say "many", but I reply, "how many?". Their existance is a vast minority to a very existing fact about Patriarchical Societies in the Medieval times (aka what I was specifically talking about).

I was not including in this non-patriarchical systems.

Your characterization is an overly-homogenized caricature even if we restrict our search field to "patriarchal medieval societies." The female knightly orders, for example, were a product of patriarchal societies.

Also, to answer your question of how many, it's "the medieval period lasted about a thousand years (from 5th century to 15th century AD) and encompasses hundreds of distinct cultures, including both a variety of places and those places at different times over a thousand year period." Or, as my original post said, "a great many."

[qube]

Women could run estates, stores, factories, farms. They just couldnt get high in clergical hierachy and weren't sent into war. Thats big, but it isnt opressive to common women. and then came Ermengarda d'Oluja.

You know the knights templar? Holy militairy order, who took vows of poverty and chastity. The rule, laid down by Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, specifically forbade women, and went so far as to set rules that kept the members of the Order as far from the temptation of women as possible? Dem guys?

There were female knights templar. And not in the 'oh, we donated some money so technically are part of it' sense - no, as full fleded (battle)brother (well 'sister'), Yeah, sure, not a lot (ref, above) ... but they existed. Ermengarda d'Oluja is prime example of this - as she even rose to become a local commander.

[The Jack]

I thank you for pointing out a rare exception. i dont know the relevence though: One time the overcast sky was green in the place i lived, but that doesnt mean I tell everyone about it when they note the sky being blue.

I think the topic can close now. Everything relevant has been exhausted. The knights Templar have been brought into a discussions concerning subteranian spiderphiles, we're out.

In essence, the drow are super interesting because they're the bizzaro society held together by a demon god, a mirror of many human practices and a satire of them. They're so interesting because in many ways they shouldnt function, and yet they do.

And they're elves.
Super hot elves.

[furby076]

What possible motivation does the MM5e Drider have for having a V-shaped midriff cutout in their armor? .

bending low, at the waist, so you can swipe at duergar dwarves with your sword. driders are large, and would have a hard time reaching low in full plate. full armor doesnt help with bendy stuff

[Asmotherion]

Snowflakes really give me a headache. Just saying.

Sometimes people can't even accept a simple historical fact without feeling an urge to argue about it, to prove themselves defenders of some "worthy cause" or whatever.

Just open a history book. Stop being rebels without a cause.

[qube]

bending low, at the waist, so you can swipe at duergar dwarves with your sword. driders are large, and would have a hard time reaching low in full plate. full armor doesnt help with bendy stuffThere's a multitude of armors that still allow for that, while still giving adequate protection. (like chainmail)

[furby076]

There's a multitude of armors that still allow for that, while still giving adequate protection. (like chainmail)

True, but a drivers normal ac is 19, so chainmail would be worse. Frankly, I think it's about looks/flavor over practicality. It's also a game, a fantasy game, so it's about looking cool (sometimes sexy, sometimes over the top sexy). Just like in Final Fantasy where some of the weapons being wielded are larger than the characters (heck cars), but they wlk around with them all over the world without an issue.

So, net net, I dont care that much. When i was 13 playing i oggled the half naked females. Now, I just appreciate any good artwork and look for the magic item list

[Mordaedil]

I think it's worth noting that even though males are permitted to puruse wizard-like exploits without much prejudice, they aren't always at the top of the chain there either. Some of the strongest arcane casters in drow society are still women. They don't outnumber the male practitioners or even assume that position in every house, but in general, the top pillar of society in all branches are on average women.

And right below or beside them are men. Except in clerical pursuits, where no men are permitted.


Snowflakes really give me a headache. Just saying.

Sometimes people can't even accept a simple historical fact without feeling an urge to argue about it, to prove themselves defenders of some "worthy cause" or whatever.

Just open a history book. Stop being rebels without a cause.

Shut up? Forever? Please?

This is a discussion forum where people discuss a fantasy setting/race. It's not a place for you to barge in with a single comment to silence dissents to your own ignorant opinion. Stop using phrases like snowflake too, it reflects badly on you.

[Spriteless]

Snowflakes really give me a headache. Just saying.

Sometimes people can't even accept a simple historical fact without feeling an urge to argue about it, to prove themselves defenders of some "worthy cause" or whatever.

Just open a history book. Stop being rebels without a cause.

NO U!

Err, I mean, according to wikipedia medieval women could be artisans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages). I guess you preferred the second result on google (http://dankoboldt.com/female-professions-medieval-europe/), as the "Home-maker, midwife, prostitute" was close enough to a direct quote that I think you ought to have cited it, ethically. I do agree, though, that women were less likely to have a choice, especially if they lacked access to birth control. (Sponge + vinegar is ancient!) But even in Christian Europe, women typically shared the work of their husband, so a widow could have any job.

If you cherry pick the setting to be all the most bigoted bits of medieval history, adventurers are an exceptional lot, so PCs will be Jean d'Arc and Lagertha and Jeanne Hachette. If you make it even worse, go full Borogravia, the PCs will be the Monstrous regiment. But if some player wants to play a rebel from an oppressive society, but isn't comfortable playing up the oppression of real people? The Drow are perfect for that! All the angst of defying the Kyrarchy, without being weird!

[LudicSavant]

NO U!

Err, I mean, according to wikipedia medieval women could be artisans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages). I guess you preferred the second result on google (http://dankoboldt.com/female-professions-medieval-europe/), as the "Home-maker, midwife, prostitute" was close enough to a direct quote that I think you ought to have cited it, ethically

Worth noting that that “homemaker, prostitute, midwife” line is cited in that article as a medieval fantasy trope, as opposed to a real life thing.

I think Asmotherion has confused fantasy tropes for trumping historians.

[Asmotherion]

I think it's worth noting that even though males are permitted to puruse wizard-like exploits without much prejudice, they aren't always at the top of the chain there either. Some of the strongest arcane casters in drow society are still women. They don't outnumber the male practitioners or even assume that position in every house, but in general, the top pillar of society in all branches are on average women.

And right below or beside them are men. Except in clerical pursuits, where no men are permitted.



Shut up? Forever? Please?

This is a discussion forum where people discuss a fantasy setting/race. It's not a place for you to barge in with a single comment to silence dissents to your own ignorant opinion. Stop using phrases like snowflake too, it reflects badly on you.

You want me to "Please: shut up? Or else you'll what, cry and make a youtube video about it?
The fact that you feel "offended" by me calling you a snowflake just proves my very point.

Good job on the language btw. You're totally proving me you're not a snowflake.

Anyway, I'm out. This is too much trouble to bother with.

[MadBear]

You want me to "Please: shut up? Or else you'll what, cry and make a youtube video about it?
The fact that you feel "offended" by me calling you a snowflake just proves my very point.

Good job on the language btw. You're totally proving me you're not a snowflake.

Anyway, I'm out. This is too much trouble to bother with.

...............*eyeroll*..........

[Mordaedil]

Wow, those snowflakes are so fun to trigger.

I miss the times when discourse on the internet wasn't just a bunch of wolf whistles.

[MadBear]

So, my D&D gaming group are starting Waterdeep Heist. I am playing a Drow Rogue (at my DMs urging…) and so started googling for background and leveling ideas. I read Salvatore’s Drizzt series several years ago, along with Elaine Cunningham’s Drow series. I have had drow characters before, in 2nd edition, but something always felt off to me about the official society. And not only the question of where Matron Malice gets her funding.
As I was reading various blogs, it came to me. The Drow society, as exemplified by Menzoberranzen, is really sexist but not in the way one would think.
Let’s compare this matriarchy with a patriarchal society most people would be familiar with – Western Europe and the USA, specifically about the 1950s or earlier.
In the Patriarchal 1950s, women are supposed to stay at home, be religious, and have children (the ones that are not privileged enough to do so were looked down on). Men were in charge of the military and intellectual pursuits.
In Matriarchal Menzoberranzen, women are… Supposed to be religious (clerics to Lloth) and the most powerful and privileged (Matrons) stay home and have children. Men are in charge of the military (Weaponsmaster and Melee Magthere) and intellectual pursuits (wizards).
Does anyone else see a problem with this?
Drow society needs a rebooting, even if – or maybe especially if – they stay an evil religious matriarchy.

Anyone else want to talk about this? Maybe think of ways to fix them?

And Mods, I tried to find a current thread about this and failed.

Basically if you cherry pick specific facts, ignore the vast amounts of information, and spin it a certain way, you can definitely make it seem that drow societies are misogynistic.

The problem from this line of reasoning occurs when you realize you can do this with any society and race, and you can come up with really dumb results. for example:

"Black slaves were actually the ones who had all the privilege during early colonial america. They didn't have to pay taxes and they were the one running the majority of production. On the other side, those poor whites could be poor, still had to pay exorbitant taxes."

Is this a really stupid argument. yes. But it's a pretty spot on analogy unfortunately.

[Sigreid]

I think it's worth noting that even though males are permitted to puruse wizard-like exploits without much prejudice, they aren't always at the top of the chain there either. Some of the strongest arcane casters in drow society are still women. They don't outnumber the male practitioners or even assume that position in every house, but in general, the top pillar of society in all branches are on average women.

And right below or beside them are men. Except in clerical pursuits, where no men are permitted.



Shut up? Forever? Please?

This is a discussion forum where people discuss a fantasy setting/race. It's not a place for you to barge in with a single comment to silence dissents to your own ignorant opinion. Stop using phrases like snowflake too, it reflects badly on you.

There's a fair bit of irony in telling someone to shut up forever while complaining about them trying to silence other opinions.

[Prince Vine]

To quick weigh in on the history side, though I am no expert or even remotely an authority, my education was too broad for any great depth.

It seems the trend toward sexism (or any ism) is a "rich person thing" in this case rich means primarily just "we aren't about to starve to death." If the lowest classes had it it was generally imposed on them from somewhere higher up the ladder. In a sustenance-level society telling anyone they can't fulfill some sort of valuable role because they are the wrong sex is completely laughable. There were often cultures where gender roles were extremely rigid for the ruling class while the lower classes didn't have any at all (beyond the obvious women have babies, men don't). Once basic survival is less of a concern and the worry is survival of the culture things tended to shift in large part because (to be somewhat crude) wombs were one of the most precious resources that a group could have. As such, women would be prevented from going into any "high-risk" roles and classes of expendable men (soldiers, dangerous labor) were created (and often deliberately used up to reduce resource consumption) helping keep those in power more secure and profitable.

On a far more speculative point, there is some evidence that women were viewed as preferred religious authorities for their ability to create children right up until men figured out women couldn't do it alone and then there was a wave of power shift. No idea if it is true, but I found it an amusing perspective.

Now on to the actual point. Yes, Drow society (in the main portrayal) is highly oppressive to men. Yes as well there are several very valid points where it doesn't quite work if you look at it closer with a sociological eye. Game designers had a very strict intent and most of them do not have extensive experience in anthropology or sociology so they could botch the details quite poorly, while also trying to turn a profit and make it marketable. It is less of a problem now, but still present and definitely an increasing theme as you go back through the years of RPGs that the assumption was that only men were consumers of the particular medium and every effort was made to cater to the male gaze. As an aside, the programmer where I work is a big collector of TSR products and memorabilia and frequently self-censors the artwork he brings in and decorates his office with because soooo much is overly sexualized.

Obviously female drow are in charge, there are some dramatic exceptions because exceptions are interesting, but if you find problems in the base set-up I feel you have a few options:

Hand-wave it with a wink and a nod; make it work simply because it is supposed to, even if by your logic male wizards and swordsmen would have taken over
Fix the issues; tweak he existing structures so the aspects that would put drow men above women are removed or altered so that is not the case.
Throw out that canon; maybe in your world drow aren't the goddess-centered matriarchy that the books say they are. Just an evil underground civilization.

[Friv]

There's a fair bit of irony in telling someone to shut up forever while complaining about them trying to silence other opinions.

I mean, not really.

The purpose of a website is discourse. If someone is making posts that would end discourse rather than encouraging it, asking them to stop trying to end discourse is not the same thing as saying that they would be unwelcome if they were adding to the discourse. If that same someone is trying to end discourse through ad hominem attacks

To use a metaphor, if a lot of people are having a conversation with three or four different rhetorical sides, and then someone shows up with a megaphone and starts interrupting everyone by yelling something, asking that person to shut up so that they can keep talking isn't ironic, it's logical.

Now, I'm going to get back on topic, because derailing this conversation was the goal of the guy with the megaphone, and I'd rather like it to continue.

Do we want to start discussing alternate ways for drow matriarchy to work? That could be fun.

[awa]

To quick weigh in on the history side, though I am no expert or even remotely an authority, my education was too broad for any great depth.

It seems the trend toward sexism (or any ism) is a "rich person thing" in this case rich means primarily just "we aren't about to starve to death." If the lowest classes had it it was generally imposed on them from somewhere higher up the ladder. In a sustenance-level society telling anyone they can't fulfill some sort of valuable role because they are the wrong sex is completely laughable. There were often cultures where gender roles were extremely rigid for the ruling class while the lower classes didn't have any at all (beyond the obvious women have babies, men don't). Once basic survival is less of a concern and the worry is survival of the culture things tended to shift in large part because (to be somewhat crude) wombs were one of the most precious resources that a group could have. As such, women would be prevented from going into any "high-risk" roles and classes of expendable men (soldiers, dangerous labor) were created (and often deliberately used up to reduce resource consumption) helping keep those in power more secure and profitable.

On a far more speculative point, there is some evidence that women were viewed as preferred religious authorities for their ability to create children right up until men figured out women couldn't do it alone and then there was a wave of power shift. No idea if it is true, but I found it an amusing perspective.

Now on to the actual point. Yes, Drow society (in the main portrayal) is highly oppressive to men. Yes as well there are several very valid points where it doesn't quite work if you look at it closer with a sociological eye. Game designers had a very strict intent and most of them do not have extensive experience in anthropology or sociology so they could botch the details quite poorly, while also trying to turn a profit and make it marketable. It is less of a problem now, but still present and definitely an increasing theme as you go back through the years of RPGs that the assumption was that only men were consumers of the particular medium and every effort was made to cater to the male gaze. As an aside, the programmer where I work is a big collector of TSR products and memorabilia and frequently self-censors the artwork he brings in and decorates his office with because soooo much is overly sexualized.

Obviously female drow are in charge, there are some dramatic exceptions because exceptions are interesting, but if you find problems in the base set-up I feel you have a few options:

Hand-wave it with a wink and a nod; make it work simply because it is supposed to, even if by your logic male wizards and swordsmen would have taken over
Fix the issues; tweak he existing structures so the aspects that would put drow men above women are removed or altered so that is not the case.
Throw out that canon; maybe in your world drow aren't the goddess-centered matriarchy that the books say they are. Just an evil underground civilization.

In some case yes but in others definitely no, poor people are not immune to the various isims, just look at some of the rural regions around the world today and the worst sexism is generally in poor rural areas. Don't want to name any countries in particular cause that may fall under politics, but just look up honor killings and similar acts is usually not the rich who do it.

[Prince Vine]

In some case yes but in others definitely no, poor people are not immune to the various isims, just look at some of the rural regions around the world today and the worst sexism is generally in poor rural areas. Don't want to name any countries in particular cause that may fall under politics, but just look up honor killings and similar acts is usually not the rich who do it.

But those are USUALLY imposed perspectives from people in a more stable position, often with accompanying consequences. My bit about that was actually thinking about early religious history where educated, relatively wealthy noble/priest castes would tell less educated commoners what gender roles are to be enforced, who would then internalize it out of fear of force or ostracization. I feel relatively certain the idea of killing a strong provider of some resource for honor reasons wouldn't come up independently in a group that NEEDS every bit they can get.

When I say poor I mean like 1300s peasant poor.

[Sigreid]

I mean, not really.

The purpose of a website is discourse. If someone is making posts that would end discourse rather than encouraging it, asking them to stop trying to end discourse is not the same thing as saying that they would be unwelcome if they were adding to the discourse. If that same someone is trying to end discourse through ad hominem attacks

To use a metaphor, if a lot of people are having a conversation with three or four different rhetorical sides, and then someone shows up with a megaphone and starts interrupting everyone by yelling something, asking that person to shut up so that they can keep talking isn't ironic, it's logical.

Now, I'm going to get back on topic, because derailing this conversation was the goal of the guy with the megaphone, and I'd rather like it to continue.

Do we want to start discussing alternate ways for drow matriarchy to work? That could be fun.

I'm not in favor of shut up as an arguement from anyone for any topic. Ah well, carry on.

[awa]

But those are USUALLY imposed perspectives from people in a more stable position, often with accompanying consequences. My bit about that was actually thinking about early religious history where educated, relatively wealthy noble/priest castes would tell less educated commoners what gender roles are to be enforced, who would then internalize it out of fear of force or ostracization. I feel relatively certain the idea of killing a strong provider of some resource for honor reasons wouldn't come up independently in a group that NEEDS every bit they can get.

When I say poor I mean like 1300s peasant poor.


your possible being euro centric, my knowledge of Europe during those time periods is limited but Europe is not the whole world. In many parts of the world woman were farmers sometimes even the primary farmers but that did not stop them from being distinctly second class

look at tribal societies in places like the highlands of paupau new guinea, woman farm but that doesn't change the fact that men beat them and they had a significantly reduced social status including nutritional deficiencies because their protein intake was so low. (note my information is someone dated being from my college anthropology courses its entirely possible even probable things have greatly improved since then)

When food is low often its girls who are often fed last because the boys were considered more valuable. The poor are not automatically morally superior to the rich.


I'm not in favor of shut up as an arguement from anyone for any topic. Ah well, carry on.
to be fair he was mostly insulting people by saying they were snowflakes for disagreeing with him

[Sigreid]

to be fair he was mostly insulting people by saying they were snowflakes for disagreeing with him

Sadly, discussion often becomes a contact sport. Especially among strangers on the internet who don't have to look each other in the eye.

[CantigThimble]

To quick weigh in on the history side, though I am no expert or even remotely an authority, my education was too broad for any great depth.

It seems the trend toward sexism (or any ism) is a "rich person thing" in this case rich means primarily just "we aren't about to starve to death." If the lowest classes had it it was generally imposed on them from somewhere higher up the ladder. In a sustenance-level society telling anyone they can't fulfill some sort of valuable role because they are the wrong sex is completely laughable. There were often cultures where gender roles were extremely rigid for the ruling class while the lower classes didn't have any at all (beyond the obvious women have babies, men don't). Once basic survival is less of a concern and the worry is survival of the culture things tended to shift in large part because (to be somewhat crude) wombs were one of the most precious resources that a group could have. As such, women would be prevented from going into any "high-risk" roles and classes of expendable men (soldiers, dangerous labor) were created (and often deliberately used up to reduce resource consumption) helping keep those in power more secure and profitable.

Well, I think sexism is also kind of inevitable in any society that doesn't have a strong rule of law at lower classes. To any degree that power is determined by personal strength and the ability to defend yourself and your property with physical violence the society will favor men over women. That changes pretty significantly in societies with strong rule of law, such as Rome, where women held a remakable degree of political and cultural power compared to contemporary cultures.


And because someone always brings up strength differences being socially constructed or something:
Citation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683) Citation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Skeletal+muscle+mass+and+distribution+in+468 +men+and+women+aged+18%E2%80%9388+yr) Citation (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cen.13350)
Whether or not you agree with these or hold your own opinions for your own reasons, I don't care, please just try to understand that I believe what I do because of what I consider to be solid scientific evidence, not becasue I'm a raging mysogynist.

[awa]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but Rome was far from egalitarian even if some women could have a degree of control over their life.

It just goes to show what a wide range of sexism the world/ history has to offer.

[Prince Vine]

When food is low often its girls who are often fed last because the boys were considered more valuable. The poor are not automatically morally superior to the rich.


It isn't about morality, it is about practicality, you can't really ostracize or discriminate against anyone without a huge hit to your standard of living. Both men and women are working themselves to death to help the tribe/family survive so the idea of saying someone can't do a thing for an arbitrary reason is not feasible. Once you have a bit of a buffer discrimination becomes a thing, usually to serve as a way to keep focused and encourage some form of group identity. As well as to create an other you can feel good being better than.

That said with drow since women exist in a place where they can do anything the men do as well as hear/channel their demon-god men really are utterly superfluous and generally inferior (especially in editions where they were called out as weaker and smaller, like many spiders oddly) outside the occasional mating (and I bet a blessing from a demon-spider could get around that). I think this would create a situation where you could cast them into any form of work that you COULD do but find distasteful (most physical pursuits as well as arcana) even if the occasional oddball chooses to pursue such things herself.

Of course you need to keep the slave-male-female hierarchy because it gives the males someone to feel superior to and compete with and boss around so they are more contented in the "higher" position. Means you have to spend less effort swatting them back down.

[awa]

It isn't about morality, it is about practicality, you can't really ostracize or discriminate against anyone without a huge hit to your standard of living. Both men and women are working themselves to death to help the tribe/family survive so the idea of saying someone can't do a thing for an arbitrary reason is not feasible. Once you have a bit of a buffer discrimination becomes a thing, usually to serve as a way to keep focused and encourage some form of group identity. As well as to create an other you can feel good being better than.

your confusing allowed to work at a job with equal in status, in many of these places girl children were the first to starve because they were less valued. They had less rights and less respect but that did not mean they did not work.

You can totally force someone to do a job and discriminate against them at the same time.

[Prince Vine]

your confusing allowed to work at a job with equal in status, in many of these places girl children were the first to starve because they were less valued. They had less rights and less respect but that did not mean they did not work.

You can totally force someone to do a job and discriminate against them at the same time.

Oh yeah, by the industrial revolution everything was hardcore commodified and is usually cited as one one of the best places to look for rapid ism spreading since it had huge socioeconomic ramifications and changed the economic values of people rapidly and dramatically.

I was referring to much older systems (meritocracy being one of the first ocracies) where people were judged entirely by their contribution over anything irrelevant like color or shape.

Real life is depressing though. Let's go back to demon-ruled discrimation with forced transmutation and ostracism, you can thwart demon-gods.

[Friv]

Of course you need to keep the slave-male-female hierarchy because it gives the males someone to feel superior to and compete with and boss around so they are more contented in the "higher" position. Means you have to spend less effort swatting them back down.

Actually, this brings up an interesting point. Menzoberranzan is a horrible parody of a lawful society constructed by a chaotic evil demon-goddess.

There should be more castes in place.

There should be a dizzing array of hierarchies, some of which overlap in ways that aren't entirely clear. Priests are always better than wizards are always better than soldiers are always better than merchants are always better than artisans are always better than courtly slaves are always better than labourer slaves. But also drow are always better than non-drow. But also women are always better than men are always better than gender-fluid folk (which Lloth hates as a reminder of the surface elves.) But also each caste has its own internal hierarchies, and the noble houses have their own internal hierarchies. But also older drow are more respected and valued than younger drow.

So when an older female merchant of a low-ranking house meets a younger male wizard of a high-ranking house, who looks down on whom? The woman is superior, and being older makes her superior, but the man is from a higher caste and a higher house. Can she openly sneer at him, or would that invite vengeance from his relatives?

Basically, the drow need more intersectionality of prejudice. Leave Women > Men at the top, but put in so many distinctions.

[OldTrees1]

Actually, this brings up an interesting point. Menzoberranzan is a horrible parody of a lawful society constructed by a chaotic evil demon-goddess.

I always saw it as an attempt by the NE Drow to build a Lawful society as some security to help survive the chaotic manipulations of their CE demon-goddess. In other words I see the lawful aspect as the flawed work of many drow rather than an oxymoronic attempt from the goddess.


There should be more castes in place. There should be a dizzying array of hierarchies, some of which overlap in ways that aren't entirely clear.

Um. Many of your suggested examples are already found in the source material.
In the Dark Elf trilogy the Mages seemed to be slightly higher than the Warriors before other factors and exceptions. However that distinction seemed slight enough to make it unclear when it would or would not trump another hierarchy. During the patrols it seemed like Drizzt < other house Mage < Drizzt's brother.

Soldiers (both Warrior and Mage versions) carried the authority of their house but merchants were more valuable. So there is the uncertainty between "proxy-for-nobility vs commoner-with-value".

The inter and intra house hierarchies were frequently commented upon.

Drow are better than free non-Drow (like Artemis Entreri).

----

I forget if any of these were mentioned:
Merchant vs Artisan
Non binary gender
Courtly slave vs Laborer slave

[lall]

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, from 3.5 Drow of the Underdark: “Drow notions of modesty are, essentially, defensive. Clothng is a protection, not merely against temperature and the environment, or (in the case of armor) against attack, but also against a perception of weakness. A drow who is not physically perfect dresses to hide her flaws, lest her rivals humiliate her or even take advantage of her shortcomings in combat. Thus, drow who feel they have more to hide dress in greater amounts of clothing. Those who are confident in their physical appearance, or who are powerful enough personally and politically that they do not fear public mockery, dress in far less.” Which goes along with “The drow closely resemble surface elves in terms of physical build, though they are often even slimmer. Some appear wiry, muscled like a gymnast, and others are truly slender, some- times to the point of gauntness. They boast the same pointed ears and almond-shaped eyes as other elves, though their features are slightly more refined and attractive than those of their surface cousins. Additionally, the drow’s constant pursuit of physical perfection has bred a lot of the flaws—but also a lot of variety—out of the race.”

[LudicSavant]

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, from 3.5 Drow of the Underdark: “Drow notions of modesty are, essentially, defensive. Clothng is a protection, not merely against temperature and the environment, or (in the case of armor) against attack, but also against a perception of weakness. A drow who is not physically perfect dresses to hide her flaws, lest her rivals humiliate her or even take advantage of her shortcomings in combat. Thus, drow who feel they have more to hide dress in greater amounts of clothing. Those who are confident in their physical appearance, or who are powerful enough personally and politically that they do not fear public mockery, dress in far less.” Which goes along with “The drow closely resemble surface elves in terms of physical build, though they are often even slimmer. Some appear wiry, muscled like a gymnast, and others are truly slender, some- times to the point of gauntness. They boast the same pointed ears and almond-shaped eyes as other elves, though their features are slightly more refined and attractive than those of their surface cousins. Additionally, the drow’s constant pursuit of physical perfection has bred a lot of the flaws—but also a lot of variety—out of the race.”

There's been some discussion of the idea. You may find post #45 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23480266&postcount=45) relevant.

[Friv]

Um. Many of your suggested examples are already found in the source material.
In the Dark Elf trilogy the Mages seemed to be slightly higher than the Warriors before other factors and exceptions. However that distinction seemed slight enough to make it unclear when it would or would not trump another hierarchy. During the patrols it seemed like Drizzt < other house Mage < Drizzt's brother.

Interesting. My memory is obviously flawed! I remembered mages sort of having their own thing, but male mages still being subordinate to the women, and I remembered houses as having a lot of political strife but not any kind of explicit tiering beyond "The One In Charge" and "Everyone Else".

Maybe I have to go back and re-read the source material.

[OldTrees1]

Interesting. My memory is obviously flawed! I remembered mages sort of having their own thing, but male mages still being subordinate to the women, and I remembered houses as having a lot of political strife but not any kind of explicit tiering beyond "The One In Charge" and "Everyone Else".

Maybe I have to go back and re-read the source material.

Inter / Intra house hierarchy [SPOILER WARNING!]

Menzoberranzan has a council made up of the Matrons of the top 8 ranked houses. We learn about this as house Do'Urden(10th -> 8th) rises from 10th to 8th by defeating house DeVir (9th) and house Hun'ett (5th) with help from house Baenre (1st).

When Do'Urden bests Hun'ett by surviving the attack, house Hun'ett should have been exterminated by the drow laws. However Baenre decides to spare the Matron of Hun'ett (formerly a daughter of Baenre?) and gift her to Do'Urden as a new Do'Urden daughter. This is part of Baenre's plot to give Do'Urden a chance to grow in Lolth's favor as a means of Baenre gaining another solid and indebted ally in the counsel.

Note: Drow laws beat Matron Hun'ett but Matron Baenre was partially above the Drow laws. At what rank and in what cases does this flip back and forth?

Note: This is also at an exceptional time in the city's history in that House Baenre has more power than you would expect from the house rankings.

There is a section where Masoj Hun'ett and Drizzt Do'Urden are both in training, while pursuing different disciplines, from different houses. Who outranked who and by how much? Both Alton Devir/Hun'ett and Dinin Do'Urden were placed in charge of the both of them at times. Did that impact the relative status?

House Do'Urden has a bunch of strange hierarchies inside it. (snapshot during Drizzt's time)
Seniority: Matron Malice, First Priestess / Daughter Briza, Firstboy Dinin, Consort / Weapon Master Zaknafein, Second Daughter Vierna, Secondboy Drizzt, Consort Rizzen
Priesthood: Matron Malice, Shi'Nayne (temporarily), Briza, Vierna
Nobility: Matron Malice, Briza, Vierna, Dinin, Drizzt > Zaknafein, Rizzen
Gender: Matron Malice, Briza, Vierna, Zaknafein, Dinin, Drizzt (I don't know Rizzen's rank here because it is outweighed by lacking in other areas)
Parentage: Zakafein is the father of Vierna and Drizzt. This has some weight with Vierna although not enough to outweigh other hierarchies. Apparently having a female lineage is an asset (gives path to Matron) but having a male lineage (your father being alive) slightly weakens your status.

Note: Briza becomes the next Matron of Do'Urden but even before that she had been at or near 2nd in all the house hierarchies. She is only temporarily displaced by Shi'Nayne (Baenre?)/Hun'ett/Do'Urden.

[qube]

There should be a dizzing array of hierarchies, some of which overlap in ways that aren't entirely clear.
...
So when an older female merchant of a low-ranking house meets a younger male wizard of a high-ranking house, who looks down on whom? The woman is superior, and being older makes her superior, but the man is from a higher caste and a higher house. Can she openly sneer at him, or would that invite vengeance from his relatives
...
Basically, the drow need more intersectionality of prejudice. Leave Women > Men at the top, but put in so many distinctions. To repost something I pointed out waaay back.


Females are seen as stronger, smarter, and more emotionally controlled. Males are primarily useful as unskilled labor and for breeding purposes. A male is still inferior even to a female drow of significantly lower status
...
From a young age, males are taught not to look at the faces of drow females, or to speak to females unless bidden.
...
~~ (source: Menzoberranzan - City of Intrigue)

the caste system of the Drow consists out of:
the 8 matron mothers of the 8 strongest houses (for a long time, thes was mostly a front for the matron mother of the 1st house having all the power)
the other 50 or so houses also were lead by a matron mother
beneith each matron mother were her daughters (ranked by age)
3 males (the house wizard, the weaponmaster, and the patron(the matriarch's boyfriend) )
then came the sons of the matron mother
under them, useful commoners that were adopted into a house (male & female)
under them, commoners without a house (male & female)
under them, non-drow (male & female)
under them, slaves (who were non-drow) (male & female)

That " dizzing array of hierarchies, some of which overlap in ways that aren't entirely clear" you wanted? I'd say that's already there. For the hierarchy is determined & modified by the blessing of the matriarch. Caste 4 being prime example, on how a caste 6 male (which is obviously < caste 6 female) could be ascended out of his tier.
Also, a mind flayer advisor could be an invaluable asset to a matriarch, yet technically only caste 8.


So when an older female merchant of a low-ranking house meets a younger male wizard of a high-ranking house, who looks down on whom? The woman is superior, and being older makes her superior, but the man is from a higher caste and a higher house. Can she openly sneer at him, or would that invite vengeance from his relatives
a female caste 7 vs a male caste 6 of a higher house? That female would socially have the upper hand, does have to watch her step. Though I can't see a matriarch detouring her master plan, just because a caste 6 male got sneered at.

a female caste 7 vs a male caste 4 of a higher house? Again, that female would socially have the upper hand ... but a sneer will most likely and up with her tripping from the top of the stairs and dying ... in the middle of the night ... in her house ... while she was in bed sleeping ...

[Mordaedil]

Sadly, discussion often becomes a contact sport. Especially among strangers on the internet who don't have to look each other in the eye.

It's a thing called Paradox of Tolerance. You can't tolerate intolerance, because doing so means allowing people that wants you to be quiet get their way by simply shouting louder and being more offensive than you are. It might look crude from the outside, but push back against them and they tend to back down, because they are scared of having their viewpoints challenged.

They also often invoke the freedom of speech, but doing so is a bit of an admission that they are in the wrong, if the only defense they have for their words is that it isn't strictly illegal to express it.

[Sigreid]

It's a thing called Paradox of Tolerance. You can't tolerate intolerance, because doing so means allowing people that wants you to be quiet get their way by simply shouting louder and being more offensive than you are. It might look crude from the outside, but push back against them and they tend to back down, because they are scared of having their viewpoints challenged.

They also often invoke the freedom of speech, but doing so is a bit of an admission that they are in the wrong, if the only defense they have for their words is that it isn't strictly illegal to express it.

Yeah, no. Intolerant rudeness is intolerant rudeness and rarely if ever leads anywhere good.

On topic, a poster had a decent point. In patriarchal societies men have always been allowed to wear less. It's quite possible that it is a power thing.

I do remember one tribe that was talked about in my cultural anthropology class where the what was normal in society was flipped. The men wore makeup and made themselves pretty and took care of the kids while the women were the hunters and warriors.

[Mordaedil]

Yeah, no. Intolerant rudeness is intolerant rudeness and rarely if ever leads anywhere good.
There is a difference in being rude and just standing up for someone who often isn't being heard. Let me put it like this:

If someone came on here and insisted women have no place at the roleplaying table, would you have a problem with me telling him to be quiet? Should he be allowed to keep posting about how he doesn't want women to play the hobby or how they've ruined it by bringing their feelings to the game? Insisting that recent D&D editions have been ruined by women being represented more commonly?

This is the kind of discourse we're dealing with here. Should I really be polite with a person like that, or as you phrase it not be "intolerantly rude"?

[Sigreid]

There is a difference in being rude and just standing up for someone who often isn't being heard. Let me put it like this:

If someone came on here and insisted women have no place at the roleplaying table, would you have a problem with me telling him to be quiet? Should he be allowed to keep posting about how he doesn't want women to play the hobby or how they've ruined it by bringing their feelings to the game? Insisting that recent D&D editions have been ruined by women being represented more commonly?

This is the kind of discourse we're dealing with here. Should I really be polite with a person like that, or as you phrase it not be "intolerantly rude"?

Yes, you should be polite but firm. Nothing wrong with telling people they're wrong. Nothing wrong with telling them they're wrong. Nothing wrong with saying x idea is pretty close to the dumbest idea you've ever heard. Believing you have the right to dictate what other people say is wrong unless you are the owner of this board. Furthermore, it's counter productive as it only leads to greater anger on both sides.

This, by the way is not me defending his position. It's simply me expressing my dismay at the direction discourse seems to be going in general. If I have to agree on everything to be civil or friends with people, I'd have no friends.

[Keltest]

Actually, this brings up an interesting point. Menzoberranzan is a horrible parody of a lawful society constructed by a chaotic evil demon-goddess.

There should be more castes in place.

There should be a dizzing array of hierarchies, some of which overlap in ways that aren't entirely clear. Priests are always better than wizards are always better than soldiers are always better than merchants are always better than artisans are always better than courtly slaves are always better than labourer slaves. But also drow are always better than non-drow. But also women are always better than men are always better than gender-fluid folk (which Lloth hates as a reminder of the surface elves.) But also each caste has its own internal hierarchies, and the noble houses have their own internal hierarchies. But also older drow are more respected and valued than younger drow.

So when an older female merchant of a low-ranking house meets a younger male wizard of a high-ranking house, who looks down on whom? The woman is superior, and being older makes her superior, but the man is from a higher caste and a higher house. Can she openly sneer at him, or would that invite vengeance from his relatives?

Basically, the drow need more intersectionality of prejudice. Leave Women > Men at the top, but put in so many distinctions.

The male wins. Both by being noble, any be having the ability to spit fire from his fingertips. A non-noble house wouldn't have the pull to inflict consequences on the wizard or his house if he decided to take offense and incinerate the merchant. Later, the wizard may or may not be punished by his house in private for embarrassing them by frying somebody in the street, if they care that much, but publicly they wont do anything to him.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Civility is a requirement here. See our broad interpretations of flaming and trolling in the Forum Rules.

Vigilante Modding or telling others what to post or not post are prohibited here. Yes, you should be polite to people. No, you shouldn't tell them what to post.

You are welcome to refute the content of what other people say, but you have to do so in a manner that complies with the Forum Rules. Someone else's bad behavior doesn't justify your own.

This thread is a mess. Locked for review. I doubt it reopens.